Health Insurance When Leaving the Corporate World? 1197
An anonymous reader writes "I've been working at a large company since I got out of college, so I didn't have to give much thought to getting my own healthcare plan. Now I'm thinking about leaving the corporate world and starting out on my own. I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen. Researching online turns up horror stories of people trying to get individual healthcare plans, or getting denied coverage on plans they thought they had. Does anyone else have experience going through this and what you've had to deal with, or am I making too big a deal of it?"
Easy (Score:3, Insightful)
Move to the UK or another country that cares
Re:Easy (Score:5, Interesting)
Personal experience here.
The NHS tends to be good when you have routine or easy to diagnose problems and personally I am happy with how routine procedures have been handled.
When you have more difficult to diagnose problems which have not yet become debilitating it's pot luck if you encounter a doctor interested to getting to the bottom of things or if you encounter a doctor more worried about meeting their government imposed targets.
While I think the NHS overall is more fairer than the US system (even with the major problems I currently have with it) just remember the grass always seems greener on the other side.
Re:Easy (Score:4, Insightful)
The grass was denied individual insurance due to p (Score:5, Funny)
The grass on the other side of the Atlantic doesn't seem green at all. Looks more like rotten.
The grass was denied individual insurance due to pre-existing conditions, and the employer had to drop coverage because the costs of premiums increased from $5000 in year 2000 to over $16000 this year.
Meanwhile, Congress sat on it's hands and did almost nothing to help deal with the costs which were spiraling out of control.
Re:The grass was denied individual insurance due t (Score:4, Insightful)
Please, please, tell the Europeans about this. Our media try all the time to convince us that private is the best and socialised healthcare is crap.
People complain about our healthcare system all the time, they don't realise how worse it can be. The private corporations are taking over. We still have a solid healthcare system, but stuff like public-private contracts are rising, with disastrous financial consequences for the State, and loss of service quality. Now they're talking about giving the freedom to opt out of the public system, or choosing your private provider at the expenses of the State. If we don't stop this madness we'll be like the USA in a few years.
Re:The grass was denied individual insurance due t (Score:5, Informative)
UHC here in Australia costs 1.5% tax on income, I can see whatever doctor I like, often without an appointment. The doctor prescribes whatever tests/pills I need without input from an accountant. I never have to pay more than $1200/yr for medicine, nobody cares if I have a pre-existing illness, if I travel to Europe I get reciprocal care from their governments at no cost to me other than said 1.5% tax. I have statistically better medical outcomes than a US citizen and never have to worry about medically induced bankruptcy. Currently government sponsered doctors are visiting every workplace in the country to offer free health checks as part of the preventative care provided by UHC.
I'm single with grandkids, I earn well above average wage and a back of the envolope calculation says my 1.5% covers 5-6 other Aussies I have never met. However I'm more than happy and proud to pay above my fair share since when I was a young dad the same system looked after my chronicly asthmatic son during the times he needed a hospital bed and specialist care, it also paid for his medicine and saved me from certain bankruptcy.
US citizens already pay more in tax per head for Medicare/Medicaid than Aussies pay for a full blown UHC. I think this is mainly due to the army of paper pushers the US employs to console ignorant people who think of socialised medicine as a government handout.
I'm not saying our system is perfect but it's run by health proffesionals and is demonstratably light years ahead of the US. It is supported by 80% of Aussie voters. It recieves true bipartisan support from politicians, any politician who dared to suggest going back to the previous US style system we had in the 70's would find himself unemployed at the next election.
In the end I really don't care what the US does with health system but having experienced both fully privatised and socialised health care my impartial advise would be to upgrade to a 21st century UHC system and ignore the corporate propoganda that is telling you socilaist death panels will kill your grandma to save a buck.
Re:The grass was denied individual insurance due t (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought making profit was a corporations job, not the governments?
The government has no incentive to save money. There are no fat bonuses waiting for government employees who excel at saving money.
Now, if you were talking about a for-profit corporation, I'd see your point. They'd happily deny you coverage if they see the slightest chance of weaseling out of it just to improve their bottom line.
Re:Easy (Score:5, Interesting)
I have experienced both the US health care system and the UK health care system. While I am sure the US system is given to excess and abuse, there is a huge difference in the quality of health care.
When they diagnosed an eye infection in my kid's eye, they opted to "wait and see" if the infection cleared up on it's own. I don't know about you, but when it comes to my kid's eyesight, "wait and see" is not good enough.
When I seriously cut my hand, I waited in the emergency room for three hours bleeding all over their floor. It was not that busy, but several doctors were out on holiday. They let several obviously non emergencies go in front of me, so I guess it's first-come-first-served. Then when I finally saw the doctor, they were so short handed that I actually had to assist in the operation by sponging the blood away from my cut while the doctor sewed me up. Good thing I'm not squeamish.
The other kid had a broken arm set in one of those fiberglass casts before we left the US. After we arrived in the UK and it was time to remove the cast, they didn't know how to deal with it. They started to get out a rotary saw and I told them that it could be removed safely with scissors. They sent us to several different hospitals and then made us come back after they consulted with some doctors in the US. Of course, they removed the cast with scissors...
I had a friend who had his wisdom teeth removed in the UK. It was done with only local anesthetic and there was quite a bit of collateral damage. He was in excruciating pain and couldn't come to work for about a week and had a liquid-only diet. He complained of soreness in his jaw for several weeks. When I had the same procedure done in the US, I never even had to take pain pills, I was eating solid food the next day and returned to work right after the operation.
It's not apples-to-apples.
Re:Easy (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Easy (Score:4, Insightful)
And earlier this month Rep. John Murtha of Pa., while in the care of the most expensive health care system in the world, died after a simple gallbladder operation was botched.
Fixed that for you.
Re:Easy (Score:5, Informative)
Step 1. (Score:4, Insightful)
Move to any 1st world country not the USA.
There is no step 2.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
Truth. If you have a family, stay in your job, unless you're already rich.
One could argue that the US health insurance system is set up to avoid having people do what you're trying to do.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Interesting)
I quit my job in Denver in 1999 and move to Toronto. I felt a huge weight lift from my shoulders: no longer was I trapped in my job, and no longer did I have to fear illness ruining my and my family's lives.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, but on the downside that you have to live in Canada now.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, 'cause Toronto is hell compared to, say, Detroit or Saint Louis
The cleanliness, the low crime rate, the public transportation, the the socialized medicine, museums, shopping, restaurants, theater, schools, culture, tolerance, diversity ... ugh!
You're going to have to pry my filthy, morally degenerate, violence ravaged, disease infested American city from my cold dead hands...
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, but on the upside that you have to live in Canada now.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked for a large corporation. Not huge, but large enough to find shortcuts to covering employees. Instead of having insurance, they acted as the insurer and had Aetna act as a "manager" of the plan. Not only was this cheaper for them, they got out of all the regulations governing insurance. I had a kid, and they denied coverage because he wasn't a member at the time of his receiving care. But, I couldn't make him a member without a birthdate, so I fought with them for months. They I got canned, and lost access to mechanism to continuing fighting.
Long story short: State bureau of insurance couldn't do anything. Hospital hit me with $5,000 in bills, and the corporation probably got a tax write off.
I used to be capitalist until I saw capitalism in action.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Interesting)
Depending on how an Insurance company qualifies it, a prenatal procedure could be either for the mother's care or for the child's care. When I had a child, I had to call in advance to get the hospital stay pre-approved (or if I recall, within 24 hours after, maybe). Otherwise, they would deny it. On the day of my child's birth, I was suprised to see a gamut of charges, some tied to my wife's care and some to my child's. It makes a little sense when you think about it, but it was a bit unexpected to see that breakdown happen during one event.
We 'unfortunately' had the child delivered by c-section, so the date was known. If the date is not known (natural, off-schedule delivery), how do you get the birth date registered with the insurance prior to the child receiving care on their birth day?
Sounds to me like the insurance carrier/company was nitpicking and failing to keep a suitable window open for the addition of the child to the plan.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
One could argue that the US health insurance system is set up to avoid having people do what you're trying to do.
I'm willing will be that one. Feudal lords can't own their serfs outright anymore, but they can find ways to make it difficult to leave the manor. You would think that modern corporations in the US would be falling over themselves in favor of a national single-payer system to get out from under their healthcare liabilities, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Informative)
What you want to do is actually very simple and you will not have to enter into the individual health care market. You likely have these options:
1) No matter what, when you leave you'll be given the option to sign up for COBRA. COBRA lets you keep the health insurance you have now and it is mandated by federal law. So long as you pay the premiums, they have to keep you on at the exact coverage you have today. After 2 or 3 years, the insurance company will take you off of COBRA but will be required to offer you a guaranteed issue policy. This option can be pricey.
2) Most states offer some form of socialized medicine. For example, Maine has a state program that anyone can qualify for provided their employer doesn't provide insurance. Massachusetts requires insurance companies offer you a policy (and requires that everyone carry it). If your wife doesn't work or doesn't make a lot, until you can cover your new company's expenses and pay yourself you are low income and will therefore qualify for many of the programs out there.
3) Some states such as Florida require that health insurance companies offer guaranteed issue policies to companies under a certain size (50 employees in the case of Florida). Since your company has only 1 employee, you qualify. Insurance salesmen don't often like to take these policies because the commissions are intentionally set low to encourage the salesmen to put you in an individual policy instead.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Informative)
The real pain isn't the premium cost -- you already take that into account when setting the rates you will charge as an independent. The real pain is that when you apply for medical insurance and aren't part of an employer group (which includes plenty of young healthies), the insurance companies will assume that you have cancer and AIDS (at least!), and that the only reason you are applying for coverage is to trick them into paying for your expensive bills. They will scrutinize your health experience with a fine tooth comb -- expect even minor nicks in your health to be grounds for them to say no.
There is no step 2 and no justice. (Score:5, Insightful)
The insurance companies hold all the cards.
Look at how the rates are climbing even as their profits are.
They are squeezing the last drop from your wallet because they know a single payer system is inevitable.
If you're going to be sick, you'd better not do it in the 'States. Its no place for you if you flinch at the thought of suing somebody who's only sin was being weak once (as we ALL are at least 15% of our lives.)
Other countries' health care systems may not be perfect but at least they exist.
The 'States have nothing even resembling a humane health care system.
What they have is health-don't-care systems.
Health care for profit is an oxymoron.
Re:There is no step 2 and no justice. (Score:4, Insightful)
Why don't people have a right to health care? Nobody's sufficiently answered that question to my satisfaction. Clearly we have the technologies today to give healthcare to everyone when they need it, so it's not a problem of scarcity or anything. Is your only argument that you don't want your money to help anyone but yourself?
And I also note the way you stated that, that someone "who works" shouldn't have to pay for other peoples' healthcare. Are you so naive that you believe only the unemployed are uninsured, or that conversely, everyone who works has access to immediate, affordable healthcare that won't drop them upon an expensive illness?
Re:There is no step 2 and no justice. (Score:4, Insightful)
"Why don't people have a right to health care?"
The same reason people don't have access to a socialised police force, fire brigade, or military.
Oh wait.
You're right, the argument against socialised healthcare in the US is utterly irrational, because the same arguments could be applied to the police force, but the idea of having to pay police insurance, fire insurance, military insurance should your house get robbed/set alight/attacked by North Koreans is obviously equally stupid. Imagine quibbling over filling in the forms for your fire insurance as your house burns down or is being robbed only to be told you're not covered after all, Fun! But still that's the reality of what those arguing against socialised healthcare would expect if they were to stop being hypocrits and applied their same arguments rationally to all public services and not just the one the talking heads on TV told them was bad because it is and they say so because it'll turn America into communist Russia.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, in the U.S., you can buy health insurance at a discount by joining either a freelancer's union [freelancersunion.org] or your local Chamber of Commerce. I did the latter when I was freelance. Most CoC's offer health insurance packages to their members at group rates, e.g. lower than what you'd pay directly. Still expensive, though. You definitely need to factor that into your budget.
Parent is correct, find an Org to help (Score:5, Informative)
Individual health insurance is an absolute joke in the US, especially for family care. If you do 'go it alone' and you don't make a ton of money (well into six figures) then you might as well just skip to the end, flush your cash down the toilet and file for Medicaid. You will end up there eventually.
Considering you have a family to look out for, you need need NEED to find a cooperative or small business owners group to buy into that provides benefits. It will still be very expensive, but you *will* be ruined if you go it alone or go without it.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Interesting)
And from what I understand you could still even work in the US, and getting heath care insurance for the US from Canada is very cheap.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
.5. Call up your local congressman and say youhave to leave the country to get health care as he doesnt care about the people he represents.
Seriously the reason one in six americans don't have coverage is based on the lasttime congress tried to straighten up healthcare. I fully expect the republicans to screw it up thistime too.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Informative)
On the off chance you find something decent, budget that rates will explode over the next couple years. In Michigan people who buy their insurance individually were hit by a 56% increase this year. Other states have similar problems.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, all the Canadian health care bashing really gets to me.
I needed a physical within the week since I was immigrating to the United States, and wanted to make sure that the actual immigration medical wouldn't reveal that I needed additional vaccinations (since the US doctors charge for it). My family doctor was able to provide it in three days.
Now, that's a fairly trivial story, but it highlights the fact that if you need care, they will prioritize you and give you the care you need when you need it.
My dad needed to have a stent put in as he had a buildup in one of the arteries near his heart. He was scheduled for it for a few months out, went in as scheduled, and had the procedure done.
A day later and he started having chest pains. The hospital told him to come back and they had another stent put in THAT DAY. He's fine now.
No questions about insurance, no bills, no nothing. He got the care he needed, when he needed it.
Single payer works. I just wish that people here in the US could be convinced of that... unfortunately they've been bashed over the head with the idea that it's somehow "communist" or "socialist", which translates to "evil" to most people here.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
Single payer works.
...in Canada and certain other countries.
As a USA-ian, even I have had excellent interaction with the Canadian health system due to an unfortunate but minor accident a few years ago.
Given the lack of wisdom in Washington DC these days, the political power of the AMA, the AARP, the various Lawyers groups and the insurance industry, I can't imagine how a functional, usable equivalent could possibly get instituted here without screwing up healthcare (and killing people) for a decade.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's the real issue.
We in the US are not opposed to single payer health care per se; we are terrified of any possible implementation of it by our government.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Unfortunately you have a point. Were I president, I would move to solve that problem with ethics rules (enforced ones, not that ones that Obama put forward and then didn't follow) that prevented anyone from getting a bigger share of the government's ear than the common man. At the same time, I would move to implement single-payer health care by means of a slightly changed H.R. 676 [pnhp.org] (mostly making it more clear that it applies only to citizens, lawful permanent residents, and refugees / asylees).
But maybe I
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Interesting)
As a USA'ian I agree. I have several Canadian friends and all of them have nothing bad to say about the socialized health care up there. In fact once when I was up there and was in a car accident (friend was driving) the hospital looked at us anyways while we were waiting for my friends cut to get tidied up. I kept telling her, I'm Alright and I dont have insurance in your country.
she said," you dont have it, this is free. even for people from outside the country"
Honestly the only people talking smack about the social health-care you have up there are the fear-mongers down here that are still believing that Obama is going to set up death panels and will start eating babies.
In 2004 my wife drove to canada monthly to buy her meds and see one of your doctors. because we were jobless and could only afford your "dangerous" Canadian pharmaceuticals, and your doctors were the only ones that understood Reynauds and were willing to treat it. American doctors poo-poo it as a "nuisance" and mostly refuse to treat it.
Only the raging idiots here knock and dog on Canadian health-care.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Informative)
Over the last dozen years, things have become bad. This summer, I broke my finger. Snapped the bone clean off near the joint. Drove to emerg. About 12 other people in the waiting room. After 6 hours of sitting, the only person who spoke to me was an administrative clerk who took down my information. I had to go interrupt someone to get an ice pack. I wasn't allowed to eat in case I got called in and they needed to operate. Finally, they called me in to an open bed. Sit for another hour. A doctor comes around and says "your finger is probably broken. Follow the blue line, get an X-ray and come back." 6 minutes later, I've returned; my x-ray done. By this time, the bone guy has gone off shift. Sit in the waiting room another 6 hours. More ice packs. Still not allowed to eat. Another bone guy just finished 6 hours doing surgery and is now doing rounds to talk to people in emergency with broken bones... So I go in. Wait another 2 hours until he gets around to me. By this point, I haven't eaten in the 14 hours since I got there nor the 4 hours prior to when I broke my finger. I _finally_ get seen. The guy looks at my x-ray and says "yup, your finger is broken. We'll schedule you in for surgery. Come back tomorrow at 13:00 (now only about 12 hours away). They tape a splint on my finger and I'm gone... Total attention by medical staff: about 8 minutes. Total waiting time: 14 hours. The next day, I show up for 13:00 for my surgery. I wait 2 hours, go in... 30 minutes later, I emerge with 2 pins and a splint. If someone had chosen to use their brain and said "ok, his finger is likely broken so lets get him in for an X-ray before the bone guy comes down next", I could have avoided at least one iteration. If someone else had used their brain and said "gee, that finger is flopping around like an injured seal. Lets get him an x-ray and book him for surgery tomorrow", I could have freed up a seat and been home inside of an hour...
This isn't abnormal. Last spring, I went to the hospital because my heart was beating at 240 bpm for no apparent reason and had been doing so for 40 minutes. I sat in the waiting room for almost 8 hours before someone even spoke to me (besides the admitting clerk)... By that point, it had gone back to normal and the ECG had nothing intelligent to say. I got to go home, none the wiser. It's happened a few more times since then and I'm no closer to understanding what the problem is. Through experimentation, I've determined I need to cut caffeine out of my diet and I've missed at least 2 recurrences of it.
Things are slightly better at the Children's hospital though... We're usually in and out of there in under 6 hours (active 8 year old boy who likes to play outside a lot.)
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
You know how Mitt Romney et. al. are constantly talking about how the US has "the best health care in the world," WHO rating be damned? Well they're right - for people willing to pay you can receive better healthcare in the US than anywhere in the world. The question we should be asking is whether we want "the best" healthcare available to the rich, or really good healthcare available to everyone.
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
People willing and able to pay can receive the best healthcare in the world no matter where they are.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Some believe that it's an individual's responsibility to budget and take care of themselves."
Depends on where on the continuum you sit. If the state is is providing crucial services such as policing and fire rescue, why is it so hard to classify healthcare as one of these essentials that modern society needs to function?
Re:Step 1. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now imagine that your uninsured 26-year old son gets leukemia instead of a sprained ankle. I'll bet you change your tune.
BTW, he's *not* being responsible. If he gets leukemia, he's not going to be able to afford the bills on "freelancing", but somebody else will have to pay after he goes bankrupt and ends up in the emergency room. You seem like a typical libertarian who socializes their risks and external costs by ignoring them.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Insightful)
I resent that I might be taxed more to pay for medical procedures for some of my friends that could afford health insurance
The irony with this oft-cited opinion is that in the USA you *are* already being taxed more. The USA, on a per-capita basis, pays more for health care than nations with single-payer systems, yet millions go without coverage and find themselves bankrupted if they need a heart transplant.
Does your son carry a DNR on him? (Score:4, Insightful)
I hope your son carries a DNR on him, because that's what a responsible uninsured person would do.
Your son chooses not to carry insurance. If he has an accident, like say FRACTURING HIS ANKLE, and that fracture throws a bloodclot, which leaves him screaming in frantic pleading agony for a while before he passes out from the pain, then some spendthrift schmuck might call 911 and get him an ambulance.
Have you priced an ambulance ride followed by ER treatment lately? The last time one of MY INSURED and therefore RESPONSIBLE children ended up in the ER -- no ambulance ride mind you -- two hours of occassional treatment, a grand total of 10 minutes with a doctor, came to more than $3,000, paid for by my money.
But your clumsy, irresponsible blood-clot-throwin' welfare-queen son, just racked up at least 10, probably more like 20 grand of debt. You know what he's gonna do? He gonna declare bankruptcy and stiff that hospital on that bill, cause twenty-something kids who can't find a real job don't have 20 grand laying around. Then MY TAXES, MY MONEY are gonna get pulled in to cover the slack because your boy doesn't want to get up and go to work in the morning.
So, if he wants to redeem himself and stay responsible, he can at least carry a DNR rejecting care and demanding that the ER doc let him die screaming and solvent.
Wake the hell up, man. You're too old to keep buying this crap. Your twenty-year-old kid didn't wisely negotiate medical care with the hospital and force them to alter their billing practices. He was the recipient of some form of charity, but you're too thick-headed and vain to admit it to yourself.
And I'm glad he was. I'm glad he got the care he needed, and I don't mind that some of my taxes probably went to pay for it. I don't mind my taxes paying for your boy because one, I've got a working heart, and two, I understand the health of the herd affects my health too. A sick cow in a healthy herd will eventually make the whole herd sick, so I don't mind keeping your boy in good health, because in doing so I deny sickness a place to take hold in the herd I live in.
Let me put that in plainer terms for the benefit of the slow. If the busboy at your restaurant is sick, then you're about to be.
But hey, John, as someone right there beside you, let me tell you about your health. You ain't as young as you used to be, and you can feel it. You wake up slower in the morning, but you don't sleep as well. Stuff breaks, and it takes longer to fix. Trying to stay in shape gets harder and harder, and no matter how hard you work, you're still losing ground. You don't quite hear as well as you used to, but no one notices it yet. You ain't seeing quite as good, but you ain't gonna let on. You've had that scary moment when you couldn't quite catch your breath, even when you know you should have already.
We ain't even gonna talk about your prostate yet, are we? :-)
We're playing a good game, we got everyone fooled, but we get the scent in the wind. Dying ain't a theoretical possibility like it was when we was 17. Well, we think we got everyone fooled. Our wives know it. Well, mine does at least. Why do I get the feeling you're divorced?
Cancer. Heart attack. Diabetes. Stroke. That's what you and I got to look forward to John, and it's as scary as hell, looking down the barrel of words like that. Diapers and Dentures will eventually get us all.
Ain't it time we put down the macho bullshit and see if we can't take care of our kids yet? Two or three more decades, you and I are both gonna be gone, but our kids will still be here. Ain't it time we find a way to give them the same level of care we'd give to THE DAMN ANIMALS IN THE BARN?!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, you see, we don't trust our government. We never have. We might have national pride, but we don't trust Bush, Obama, or whomever. Our nation is no longer run by the people, but special interest, with the biggest special interest being the government, mainly because of it large assumed debt. In Canada, they seem to have a fair amount of disdain for individuals in politics, but what they do have is a mutual trust that we don't have.
In the USA, we are supposed to be free, but the government continues to advance social agendas, and that plays right into health care. Once the government gets our health care, they can start using it to control us. Look at our - taxes. No longer are Americans paying a "fair share" of government costs according to uniformity, rather they pay less when they are in compliance with government agendas.(Energy tax credits, owners of corporations, etc.) the whole system has become a farce. Just look at the recent plane attack on the IRS - why? because of some 170x (4, 6? I forget) statute where technology workers are singled out. Equal protection - my ass!
The productive people of society want our money to buy the health care we need. The under productive still want the health care, but don't want to pay for it. The conservatives don't see the government as the body to be providing health care because it does not employ free-market principals, so our dollar is not maximized. The liberals see the government as the body to provide health care because they are the only ones who can legally confiscate the funds from those who have them to care for those who don't.
Whereas in Canada, as far as I can tell, people see their government as an asset and not a liability. Lets face it, the confidence in the US's federal government is shot. And I think that's the real problem.
Re:Step 1. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think it's hilarious that there are all of these complaints about what basically amounts to triage, which is a practice that nearly every developed medical system engages in. Even those used by Americans who are lucky enough to have insurance.
Of course people complain about triage. I mean, who wants a system where I can't just spend more money to be pushed to the front of the queue so I can get my non-critical surgery performed ahead of the guy who needs a heart transplant? What the fuck??? I don't want my freedom to fuck other people over limited! Granted, I'm not rich enough to take advantage of that freedom, but I might be some day!
Re:-1 Troll and Uninsightful (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sorry, I missed the bit where you had constructive advice to offer to the poster.
Re:-1 Troll and Uninsightful (Score:5, Insightful)
These responses of move to "XYZ" or move out of the US that are modded "insightful" is simple flamebait and does not help the questioner or add anything new to the discussion.
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
Pfft. So in your view the whole world is 'left', and the US is 'centre' or something?
Re:-1 Troll and Uninsightful (Score:5, Interesting)
We get it, lefties. You don't like the US's health care system. Get over it. This guy is not going to move out of the USA simply because of health insurance.
Weird, I was pretty sure that dislike of the US health care system was pretty universal regardless of party affiliation or position on the political spectrum. Granted, how to *fix* the system is a polarizing issue, but whether or not the US system sucks balls doesn't seem to be up for debate these days.
Though, as an aside, some people actually do leave the US because of healthcare. Many more would like to, but can't afford to move any more than they can afford their healthcare premiums (some of my friends fall into the latter category).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The reality is that the majority of people are happy with the quality of health care available in the US.
Ahhh, but now you're mincing words. I'm sure the *quality* of healthcare in the US is very good. I don't think anyone has disputed that.
What some people are unhappy with is the cost
*Some* people? Try *most* people. Cost is a *huge fucking problem* in the US healthcare system. It's not just a huge problem, it's *the* problem. And it leaves millions upon millions either uncovered or undercovered. A
You're fucked (Score:4, Informative)
Good luck. Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.
The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.
Move to Canada (Score:5, Informative)
and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.
Re:Move to Canada (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on the province; it's often free no matter what your situation is. Contrary to Republican scare ads, it's also of excellent quality provided that you don't go to the emergency room for a cold or a stubbed toe.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends on the province; it's often free no matter what your situation is. Contrary to Republican scare ads, it's also of excellent quality provided that you don't go to the emergency room for a cold or a stubbed toe.
The opposite is true. Canada has excellent acute care, and appalling chronic care. Emergencies are handled quickly and efficiently. Getting to see a specialist or starting a long-term regimen of treatment can take months or years.
That is by design.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Not always. I've watched my wife's grandparents get excellent care from the family doctor, including specialists, to manage diabetes, heart disease, etc.
Re:Move to Canada (Score:5, Insightful)
[Move to Canada] and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.
With all due respect, and I really don't mean this as a troll, but you aren't just paying $100 a month -- you simply cannot afford any medical system for that sum (even if you weren't screwed like the States into paying stupid large administrative costs) . In reality, a large fraction of the money for the health care system comes from taxes which you are ultimately going to pay.
I am a big proponent of some form of public healthcare but I dislike the fact that many of the people here in the US that are arguing for it will not acknowledge that it's simply going to expensive. They point to the naive out-of-pocket expense in Canada or The Netherlands without acknowledging the true cost of the system in the form of higher taxes. My position is that we can and should afford such expense but one does not do any favors to the debate by dissembling about the cost. If anything, it's ammunition to opponents that can point to your dishonesty in selling the plan.
There is no free lunch and there is definitely no first-world healthcare for $100/family/month. The closer figure it probably $650/family/month. Again, I believe it's a fine way to spend that money (and we are affluent enough to afford it) so I'm not approaching this from a position of ideological opposition, only one of demanding honesty from everyone.
Cite: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person [nationmaster.com]. The exact numbers are highly debatable, especially since we don't know how much various plans will change the cost structure here in the US but $100/f/m is simply unreasonable.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If the US people are finally even though ignorantly stumbling into improving their screwed up healthcare system, that's still a good thing.
Your link itself shows that the USA was spending 2x what the Canadians do.
So it might actually be easier to improve the US healthcare system than to reduce ignorance.
Re:Move to Canada (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure the parent post was meant in jest. But, at the same time, the United States might be the only developed nation in which such a huge chunk of the population could be so blindly frightened and misinformed. How the people formed such a masochistic relationship with the big corporations -- one so strong that they'll stand in the street and protest against their own interests -- is beyond me.
Maybe this entire American health care "debate" could be summarized with an infamous quote from a man protesting a perceived intrusion on his lifestyle by Obama: "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!"
Re:Move to Canada (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you really that stupid? because you sound like it.
The magical health-care fairies are TAXES you idiot.
Only a raging sociopath, or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.
so which one are you?
Re:Move to Canada (Score:4, Insightful)
Brainwashed socialists
Only Americans, can, after cutting their taxes on the upper class thereby shifting the burden of society onto the lower and middle classes, and then giving the upper class big bonuses for almost destroying the country, only Americans can complain about socialism for the middle and lower classes.
Socialism for the upper class is entirely acceptable in their brainwashed "Liberty to die" culture.
Re:Move to Canada (Score:5, Interesting)
Total healthcare spending in Canada last year was $160 billion or so. So $10 billion was paid by the people, and the other $150 billion was magically wished into existence by healthcare fairies
Of course not. It was paid for the same way that America's massive defense expenditures were paid for, or Medicare was paid for, or Veteran's benefits were paid for: taxes. We just choose to allocate taxes toward funding universal healthcare. You guys picked missile defense , cutting-edge interceptors, and nation building. To each his/her own. *shrug*
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Their discount is 20 times less than unmarried people or something? You could change the number to be 10 times higher, and the math would still not work out.
Ultimately, one way or the other, each citizen of Canada would've had to pay a little under $5000 US last year on average, either directly or indirectly.
Re:Move to Canada (Score:5, Insightful)
In the US the insurance profits aren't actually all that much money. The real issue is that there is overhead EVERYWHERE.
Your doctor probably employs 1-2 people to do billing, because of the complexity of reimbursement. Your doctor nearly employs a lawyer as well with their malpractice premiums.
Your insurance company has 10x more people than it really needs - those don't count as profit, but they certainly bring cost.
Your hospital charges 10x what anything actually costs, because they have all the costs above and also have to provide "free" care to the indigent.
The tort and pay-for-service system guarantees that everybody is getting more treatment and especially more testing than they actually need.
Throw in another dozen issues similar to these and we can see why US health care is so expensive. Everybody likes to point at one thing and call it "the problem" but the whole system is one big mess. Most proposals to "fix" it amount to just shuffling money around so that people don't see the bills.
Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
The doctors could even make house calls if you had a sick child. A wonderful system, and about half the cost of our monstrosity.
You got 2 choices (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Don't get sick
2) Die quickly
I did the same for a while... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
received full benefits (taking up most of that paycheck)
So your insurance cost you 15 hours per week. That seems potentially expensive, depending on how much you could earn spending that time doing something else.
doesn't that make you boiling mad? (Score:5, Interesting)
if you're rich, you have no problem
if you're poor, you have medicaid, and you have no problem
only if you are a middle class citizen in the united states do you have no healthcare options, and have to do ridiculous gymnastics like the poster above
how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?
i can hear all of their criticism of socialized medicine. republicans, teabaggers: i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine. BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. do you not see that?
when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUO
are you resisting because you have a better solution? (crickets)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No, they're resisting because they'll lose money.
except "they" (Score:4, Insightful)
are often exactly the sort of lower middle class folk who would benefit immensely from socialized medicine
its like in the town hall meetings last summer, the old man who stands up and yells "keep your socialism away from my medicare"
it would be hilarious if it weren't so horribly tragic
i think it just boils down to incredible, horrible levels of high propaganda: the government is out to get you! the government is YOURS. it serves YOU. really
Re:I did the same for a while... (Score:5, Insightful)
If this doesn't highlight the problems with the US health insurance system, nothing will. You had to trade 15 hours a week of your life simply to be able to live a healthy life. That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
To be fair, though, most people spend more time than that each week in front of the TV...
Umm (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can't afford to help your countrymen get health care, how can you afford to fight multiple major wars and lower taxes at the same time?
The only problem with the Republican viewpoint on government spending is that it doesn't make any fucking sense.
Check with your local Chamber of Commerce (Score:5, Informative)
When I was self-employed, I was able to get cheaper insurance through my local Chamber of Commerce. I had to join (and pay the membership fee), and it was still expensive, but nowhere near as bad as if I'd done it all by myself. And don't just limit it to your own town - a lot of them don't care where you live/work as long as you're close enough to be in the same general area :)
Other groups... (Score:4, Informative)
There are other professional groups that have insurance programs.
For instance, the ACM [acm.org] has insurance programs [acm.org], though I don't know much about the cost or coverage. The IEEE [ieee.org] has a similar set of programs [ieee.org], though it does not look like they have a straight health insurance offering. If you are going on your own, it might help to start a formal business - you might be able to get a small employer program.
You will spend a fair amount on medical care for kids, even if you just do the normal preventive care. The cost of a whole-family plan will reflect that. If I had a young family now, I would seriously consider a high-deductible plan. You pay for most of your own care, but the insurance is there in the event that you have major expenses.
Be methodical (Score:5, Interesting)
Just like when planning for a very large purchase, be thorough and methodical in researching your options. Firstly, dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage. Secondly, dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low. Thirdly, read reviews, opinions, and small print on whatever plans are left. Finally, pick whichever fits your budget, preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red, since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.
Finally, remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance (and possibly even more important). Make sure it's a policy with a completely different company.
If you go about it in a cool, organized manner, you will find the coverage you need... but don't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $15'000/year for it.
Re:Be methodical (Score:5, Informative)
Mod Parent Informative (Score:3, Informative)
$15000/year is the bare minimum. By 'bare minimum' I mean a plan with topline 'coverage' numbers that actually translates into additional money you don't have to spend on medical care AFTER the insurance company covers some care AND the time and effort required to not get a meaningful percentage of medical care costs shifted onto you anyway.
A year ago, I got into a freak accident where I stood the likely possibility of bleeding to death. 8 hours of emergency surgery, other terrible stuff. I blew through
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is no reason why you should've posted this AC, unless you're saving your mod points for opinion-modding.
You bring up a perfectly valid criticism of the current system. The "pre-existing" conditions loophole MUST be closed.
If it weren't for partisan infighting between the Bolshevik left and the Fundamentalist right in our Congress, both paid off by the insurance lobby, this loophole would've been closed 6 months ago (and should've been closed YEARS ago).
vote for democrats (Score:3, Insightful)
they'll give us universal healthcare ... oh, wait, nevermind.
Kaiser Permanente (Score:4, Informative)
Missing argument in health-care debate (Score:5, Insightful)
Supposedly one of the strengths of the U.S. economy is its ability to rapidly adapt to changes. This has been used to justify the lack of job protections for workers. But as the poster has shown, having health insurance tied to your employer obstructs the kind of entrepreneurism that's part of our rapid adaptation.
I don't understand why this argument hasn't come up during the health-care debates. It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy.
HSA (Score:4, Informative)
I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums. They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees. We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone. My family plan was $700/mo.
So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana. It was about $200 a month for a family of 4. It had a $10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen. Then it paid 100% above the $10k. The good part is you can put up to $10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account. You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money. They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices. But you can use any doctor you want.
What I found is that we shopped around. You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service. Some doctors wouldn't quote us a price for the visit so we didn't go there. Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.
When I became self-employed (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm damned glad that I did, too. My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years later (she's fine now). We would have been wiped out if not for insurance.
Hawaii? Massachusetts? (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know if you're able to move or not, but the situation isn't the same in every state. Maybe you could move to Hawaii, for example.
It might be overkill, but if you really want to go out on your own, that could be a path forward.
Facts. (Score:5, Insightful)
Take their powers (Score:3, Funny)
If you have reached this point and are frothing at the mouth or hurling your mouse, lighten up and ebay yourself a sense of humor.
HSA - health savings account (Score:3, Insightful)
I have a individual (not group, not employer offered) HSA plan with a very low premium and a high deductible. Every month I put some money (about the difference between this plan's premium and a average premium plan) into my HSA account. Although the deductible is high, I save enough on the premium to basically put away twice the yearly deductible every year. The plan gives 100% coverage after deductible on everything covered (no coinsurance), and many things (annual checkups) are totally free even before the deductible.
In other words, in years when I have high medical expenses, my total costs work out about the same as a high premium, low deductible plan. However, in years when my medical expenses are low, I get to KEEP the money that I would have spent on premiums. The insurance company loves it because any expenses I incur come partially out of my savings, so there is a definite motivation for me to keep my costs as low as possible (which keeps their costs low as well, unlike other plans where there is no incentive for the insured to keep costs low).
And the best part is that everything I deposit in the HSA account is TAX DEDUCTIBLE and earns interest TAX FREE. When I retire I can withdraw from it TAX FREE as well. It is like the best parts of a Traditional IRA plus a Roth IRA, but I can use it to cover any health expenses I have at any time and with no penalties.
Bottom line is that I'm paying about 1/2 of what the equivalent coverage would cost from a regular plan, and in the best case I get to save a lot of money that would have been wasted on premiums and earn interest on it tax free, and in the worst case if I use up the whole deductible, I still get good coverage, lower my taxes, and earn some interest on the money. The only time I wouldn't recommend the HSA is if you get really sick a lot and have high expenses all the time, especially prescription drugs which aren't discounted as much in this plan.
The horror stories are all true (Score:3, Insightful)
As someone who's spent too much of the last decade out of work, everything you hear is true - like in Florida, over 13 mos between the end of '03 and the end of '04, when I ran out COBRA and got rolled into an "individual" plan, and the Republicans in charge of the state allowed, in two jumps, a ->ONE HUNDRED PERCENT- increase in premiums.
Consider finding a group to join that offers it - anyone know if either the IEEE or ACM offer plans?
mark "until we techno-peasants finally wake up, pull out the torches and
pitchforks, and ride the Republicans out of town on a rail, tarred and
feathered, and tell the remaining folks in Congress to pass single payer"
my experience with private insurance (Score:5, Informative)
I had a stint of several years without corporate insurance. The situation is grim and I can only tell you what I ended up doing.
I too had a family (3 kids and a wife). I found a private plan with Blue Cross that cost around $1200/month and considered it a steal. (Although I was not affected, I heard horror stories about individuals who were unable to get private insurance at any cost.) The coverage was similar to my prior corporate plan but with higher deductibles and more gate-keeping by our primary care physician.
After a year of this I looked around for an alternative and moved to a high-deductible plan with Aetna (deductibles were $5k/person; $15K/family) and opened an HSA. I contributed the maximum allowed to the HSA each year (note, this is not a FSA!). For the remaining years this was the approach I took and it worked well but no one got seriously ill, we didn't need any hospitalization, and only used a hospital once for my daughter's broken foot. For the duration I was with Aetna's high-deductible plan, they paid nothing, but my cost was only $612/month and I got the tax benefits of the HSA.
Absent a health plan you are paying retail for all medical services vs. the negotiated cost your insurer has obtained. You still end up paying a lot (all?) out-of-pocket but at a reduced rate. The same applies to prescription drugs. This negotiated cost business is the secret sauce of the industry. You go to your doctor and he charges you $100 for the office visit and $300 for an x-ray. But Aetna has negotiated these fees to be $65 and $125 respectively which is what you end up paying unless you've reached your $5K deductible. If you've got the money in your HSA you pay it from there using pre-tax dollars. If you don't have any insurance (or the doctor doesn't take your plan) then you pay the whole retail price ($400 in this example).
We had no dental nor eye care coverage for the duration but both can be paid using the HSA account.
In both policies a pregnancy was specifically excluded but we had finished our family by then so it was not an issue for us.
I hope this helps.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you on crack? Or do you just spend your time listening to liars without doing any fact-checking?
Insurance premiums for self-insurance are 100% tax deductible, provided you itemize your deductions and meet the minimum threshold (which is trivial considering how much insurance costs these days) -- they've been that way for decades.
I voted against the neocons (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?
I think you will find it harder to be allowed immigration than you expect. Depending on where you go of course, but your options are probably quite limited.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Move where? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm Canadian and very biased, so I'll just say that up front.
Move to Canada.
Canada is capitalist. Canada has universal health care. Canada's not going to take too much out of you through taxes; if they did, we wouldn't have the economy we do. Canada's tax code is fairly similar to the US, and probably fairly less complicated (and there are many, many deductions available to businesses). And you know that Canada has a stable government and isn't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon.
Of course, you'll have to go through the immigration process to do so, though if you're running a fairly successful business you should have no trouble (I believe there's a business owner class for immigration).
Re:LLC (Score:4, Informative)
Small group insurance is _much_ better than individual because group policies -- even for just two people -- must be issued. Individuals can be turned away but groups cannot. At least that's the law in California.