Studying For Certification Exams On Company Time? 281
Posted
by
kdawson
from the unfunded-mandates dept.
from the unfunded-mandates dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Companies sometimes require employees to hold or obtain certifications — for example in order to achieve Cisco certified partner status. Some companies pay for employees' exams and encourage employees to study on company time. Others expect employees to obtain mandated certifications on their personal time and dime. Should companies be able to require employees to obtain a certification, but refuse to pay for it, under threat of losing their job to a certified individual? Should it be or is it even legal to demand this of employees, especially if such a certification was not required at the time of hire?"
Does it matter? (Score:5, Informative)
in our company... (Score:3, Informative)
Where in the world? (Score:5, Informative)
When you ask legal questions, it's polite to mention which country you're in.
In the UK, and probably the rest of the EU, I suspect this would not be reasonable grounds for dismissal.
In the US, well, nothing would surprise me. Labour laws seem incredibly weak from the employee side.
Re:It's called competition (Score:5, Informative)
What next, you have to bring your own desk?
Actually, yes. Generally speaking, employers in the US may require workers to purchase their own equipment without reimbursement. The expenses are tax deductible for the workers, but that's about it.
Although rare in IT, there are a lot of jobs out there where this is, to one degree or another, routine. Employees that have to wear uniforms are a good example. Jobs that involve a lot of driving often require use of the employee's own car, and don't always provide reimbursement.
Re:Depends... (Score:3, Informative)
Well, contracts aside, it's still the case that large corporations offer continuing education or tuition reimbursement as a matter of policy, and while I'd hope that the value of investing in an employee should be self-evident to any employer, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that such notions fall victim to cost-cutting measures taken during tough economic times.
Jobs in the IT field aren't considered professions (at least in the traditional sense), but it may offer some perspective to consider how other professions handle things. Consider lawyers, as a ferinstance. From the American Bar Assocation website [abanet.org]:
So lawyers are required to "maintain their certifications". And by extension, law firms maintain their "certified status". How about the costs for the education? Well, unsurprisingly (or not), most of the better firms offer reimbursements [law.com], and then some.
All in all, I'd suggest it comes to how generous or otherwise enlightened an employer is at a given point in time. Should your employer reimburse you, or otherwise make accomodations? If the company's "certified status" depends on it, the answer is an obvious "Yes". If not, then I'm afraid your own needs or wishes will be considered discretionary.
Re:Greener pastures (Score:2, Informative)
Indeed, I've once heard a person explaining that with EMBAs for example, people taking the course will very often leave their company upon completing the course, as with their shiny new paper they could find better offers elsewhere.
So get the shiniest piece of paper you can get your hands on, then set sail for brighter pastures.
Re:Oh dear (Score:5, Informative)
How do you keep an employee from taking that training you just paid for and leaving for what the employee sees as greener pastures? How do you get a return on the huge investment you just dumped into that employee? That is the real issue on why many companies won't expend the dime on training.
In the Netherlands, you can add a clause to any contract basically stating that when they are going on training, they will repay 100% if they leave in one year, 66% in 2, 33% in 3 and 0% after that (or any other declining rate that will hold up in court - 100% in 10 years will not hold up). Most of the companies are part of mandatory collective bargaining agreements with a similar clause.
So one of my friend has a new and shiny MBA - and he will have to fork over a serious amount of money if he decides to leave next year. If the new hiring company wants him bad enough, they'll pay it.
I'm surprised this isn't a standard clause in the USA as well, because it solves most of the issues in this area.
Re:Employment vs. freelancing (Score:3, Informative)
Speaking as someone who's been doing the independent contractor thing in the US, it's not as rosy as people seem to think. Those "contractors' rates" are _not_ what a lot of people think they are:
* FICA (social security/medicare) taxes are "doubled" (as an employee, you only see 1/2 of the total withheld, as a contractor, you pay it all).
* You provide your own health insurance. If you can somehow get it on the group market (a few states actually have a legal minimum "group" size of 1), you could be looking at $300-400 or more for a good plan. Maybe $500+ if you're over 40. If you get it on the individual market (at least for the next few years), well, you're screwed if you get sick.
* If you're smart, you incorporate or form an LLC and get liability insurance. Depending on what you do and what state you're in, this may require $2000/year or more, besides the paperwork, pro-forma meetings, separate bank accounts, etc..
* Your taxes get more complicated. Most regular employees can trivially fill out a 1040-EZ by hand or use a free or cheap software package and be done in an hour. With self-employed business income, you may spend several tens of hours/year dealing with documenting expenses and estimated tax payments, and if things get at all complicated, you're best off paying an accountant, costing additional money.
* Invoicing the customer takes time, and you probably won't get the check or wire transfer for 3-5 weeks.
* If you're not just working for one customer over a long period, you get a lot of overhead in finding business, preparing bids, negotiating contracts, etc., none of it directly billable.
* _ALL_ equipment/infrastructure is your responsibility. Nobody's providing you with a laptop, an internet connection, email, calendaring/groupware, software, etc.
* If you're working from home, your utility bills will definitely go up. If you're renting separate office space, you have that overhead.
With these and other factors, there can easily be 40-50% or more overhead beyond salary that regular full-time employees never see.
Re:Depends... (Score:1, Informative)
I doubt a network certification falls into that category, maybe in the US though since the resignation period is just two weeks.
That is a common misconception about employment in America. While it varies from state to state, most jurisdictions are considered "at will" employment states, meaning that the employee or the employer may terminate employment at any time and for almost any reason (certain discriminatory practices being the exception). "Two weeks notice" is (in most cases) more of a customary courtesy than a legal requirement.
Re:Oh dear (Score:3, Informative)
In the Netherlands, you can add a clause to any contract basically stating that when they are going on training, they will repay 100% if they leave in one year, 66% in 2, 33% in 3 and 0% after that (or any other declining rate that will hold up in court - 100% in 10 years will not hold up).
I'm surprised this isn't a standard clause in the USA as well, because it solves most of the issues in this area.
This actually is how it's done at some places. I'm a contractor and have worked at some rather large companies in the Boston and Hartford areas. Based on conversations I've had with employees and on discussions related to being hired as an FTW at companies that DO pay for you to learn, for credit type classes you are reimbursed full tuition if the degree is job related but only if you keep a certain GPA. Part of the reimbursement contract stipulates that you will pay the company back is you leave the company voluntarily a certain percentage based on time after reimbursement.
For companies that do not reimburse or pay for certificate classes, I find that most of the companies I've worked at very rarely have employees that are up to date with current technology.
Having never personally worked for a company that did not pay for certification classes I would have to agree with the above posters that these companies would have a tough time keeping employees that are getting certificates on their own.
certifications are tax deductible. (Score:3, Informative)
remember that and deduct them on your taxes.
if the company requires it, deduct it.
Re:Oh dear (Score:3, Informative)
However most of the companies I have been with just set a limit, usually $3000-$4000 a year and don't require any time pay back.
Re:Oh dear (Score:2, Informative)
c) No reference at all and a difficult to explain gap in employment history. All of which could be much more disadvantageous than just paying the money back.
I assume the "gap" would not be a gap at all, and very easy to explain that the former company would not provide a reference, or you were unwilling to accept their reference, because you were in a dispute with them.