Most Useful OS For High-School Science Education? 434
Clayperion writes "I teach at a high school program for gifted students which emphasizes math, science, and technology. Currently we have two computer labs for the students: A new programming lab (all Dell PCs running XP, MS Visual C++, Eclipse, and SolidWorks for programming and CAD) and an old general-purpose lab (all Macs running OS X 10.3, with software ranging from some legacy OS 9 science applications to MathCad). Most of our students eventually pursue graduate degrees in science and engineering, and we would like them to have experience with the tools they will find out in industry. As we look to replace the old machines, there has been a push to switch to PCs with XP so that there is only a single platform to support. There are over 5000 machines on the district's network and the IT department is very small (fewer than 10 people), so the fewer hardware and software differences between the machines, the better. Without opening a flame war as to which one is 'better,' I'd like to know what those of you in the science and engineering fields actually use more in your labs (hardware, OS, software), so that we can decide which platform to support. It will most likely have to be either XP or OS 10.6, with very restricted permissions to students and teachers, as that is the comfort level of IT and administration, but I'll push for whatever would benefit the students the most."
any linux distro (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm working on my master in math and Linux is a must. There is so much compiling, scripting and ssh'ing that it makes Linux the best choice.
MacOS as a second choice (I hate mac) however it still does lack in some places. Examples are software libs, sparse matrix solvers, r, sage, latex, root(physics) .
That being said you can install most of these on a mac but its a process vs a 'sudo apt-get install' in a debian type distro. Also at least in my experience there are alot
of people in these fields running linux which makes collaboration much easier do to similar software versions, ideally this shouldn't matter but not many program that cleanly.
Educational environment (Score:2, Interesting)
As far as the concerns from your network admins go - tell them to find a good hardware independent imaging solution. There are some great products out there that do this type of thing. I'm partial to Altiris (now Symantec) Deployment Solution. It can kill the hardware abstraction layer and then drops in replacement drivers based on the hardware it's imaging. It runs over the network and images via PXE boot and I've heard of a lot of places that use it in pretty spread out setups (thousands of machines in far-flung locations). It scales extremely well and in cases where you do need specialized drivers for things like video cards or other special equipment they do provide a way to install those drivers. Although if you're using Novell Netware it really causes problems - in which case you'd want to look at Zenworks but it's definitely not as easy to use as Deployment Solution (works great with Active Directory though). I've been using it since the beginning of this year and I love it. I've got 12 labs of varying sizes to maintain and I only have to keep up one base image. Each lab has a scripted OS install setup that installs any special software that's needed in the lab. It's also handy to be able to reimage the labs overnight and not have to wait for semester breaks to update software.
mac mini's with virtual machines running win7 (Score:4, Interesting)
computer hardware is probably a pain to procure at a high school, so i recommend the relatively inexpensive Mac mini. we're planning on converting our XP lab to Mac Minis running Windows 7 in a virtual machine (Virtualbox) which means our computer hardware won't be a limiting factor when selecting the software we teach students in our lab. Mini's are as much power as you'll need, and this makes more sense than iMacs when you factor in the cost of 22" or 24" LCDs. and by running Virtualbox, you can even set up multiple vm's so you can test out new versions of software without having to perform complete rebuilds if some microsoft update hoses the system. hell, you can even add some linux to your environment should their be some cool engineering or programming tools that would otherwise be too costly on the microsoft or apple platforms.
yep, you can buy a pc cheaper and of course you can run Linux for free, but it will probably help your students the most if they get a little bit of experience with multiple operating systems since once they graduate from college, they'll probably be using OSX 10.7 or Windows 8. running XP is a nightmare because of the security holes AND because Microsoft has already started to eliminate XP, say 2 years ago when they first discontinued it.
having dealt with apple dealer to school sales since 1991, I think the choice [Mac or PC] is a false choice. And since there are no viruses or malware that run on OSX, the schools we support who run OSX spend a shitload less on support costs, which can quickly suck up your budget, your time, and your patience in a school environment should you be running XP and get zapped by malware. since running vm's is easy, it's become a preferred way to quickly switch a lab from one group of students to the next.
Re:Open (Score:1, Interesting)
For chemistry, biology and physics. . . (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no question in my mind that Windows is the way to go for chemistry software, as I've now spent almost ten years at three different universities working my way to a PhD (almost there!), and besides the occasional foray into Linux (control software for two different brands of NMR), it's been Windows all the way (and the NMR software was available for in a Windows client, also). I could post a list of all the instrumentation I've used, but trust me, it's long, probably around twenty-thirty instruments now.
From my undergrad experience:
I haven't used as much software earning my bio degree, but we mainly used statistical packages, and they all ran on Windows - the SEM (the only instrument I used in that department) ran on XP, too.
I only had a year of physics as required for the chem and bio degrees, but the physics department uses Macs for the computer labs and the classroom computers - supposedly there are a lot of interesting software packages available, which I never used. The instrumentation I had the opportunity to use (the Mossbauer spectrometer and the x-ray diffractometer) both ran on XP, though.
Re:Free OS, free software (Score:3, Interesting)
same here, but there is 1 PC dedicated to each bit of equipment and it is *strictly* not used for anything else. So that PC becomes part of the instrument and ages with it. Often the equipment & software can be 15-20 years old and still calibratable & in active operation. Finding old PCs that stay alive that long with a real UART etc. gets harder and harder, but here's to hoping that virtualization saves the day. Got an old Win98 laptop on the shelf for one machine which just has a DOS interface, but keeps on chugging.
But really you are just talking about a data logger for a very expensive sensor. All the real day to day use, formal analysis, and number crunching happens on some flavor of UNIX (Linux/MacOSX/Solais).
Linux (Score:1, Interesting)
I haven't touched Windows or Mac OS since I got my bachelor's. I work for an IC design firm and we do all of our work in Linux and BSD, from the ASIC, to the test board layout and embedded developement.
It's a school, right? Let the kids do it. (Score:1, Interesting)
Teach the kids to learn... (Score:5, Interesting)
You're going to run into one of two problems.
1) By time the kids grow up everything in industry will have changed.
2) You can't afford what they use in industry with a HS budget, even the [college] student licenses.
I'm a mechanical engineer. I make my living using Matlab, Simulink, CANape and some internal company programs.
I went to HS with Windows ME (with MacOS 7/8 at home) I honestly don't ever even remember using them. Our "Physics Lab" was an Apple II running some highly custom software and hardware. (Running lasers to time ball bearings going down ramps and such). I learned the basics of programming with TI-Basic. In college I picked up Java, C, & Matlab/Simulink.
Now I run 10.6 at home and XP at work. Something no one could have predicted back in the day. Teach the kids the basics. If someone 'gets' how to program, it doesn't matter. If someone 'gets' chemistry, it doesn't matter if they're drawing them on paper or in some 3D model.
And I haven't priced a student's version of Matlab recently, but I know my seat at work runs 20k. Simulink doesn't make too much sense until you've had DiffEq. I haven't used Octave enough to know how compatible it is. CANape... well you'd need quite a bit of money for the stuff to run it on. There's a reason there are a half dozen solid modeling programs, because companies use different ones. And with my short time with most of them, they're completely different. AutoCAD, CATIA, ProE, SolidWorks, etc.
Mac OS X for biology (Score:1, Interesting)
I am a university faculty member in biology (in an ecology and evolution department) and Macs are by far the most common, with some Windows and Linux. I do programming as part of my research (various projects on Google Code, R-forge) and do it on a variety of Macs. One thing to note is that with a Mac, you could install Parallels or VMware to run any necessary Windows-only programs, but you can't do the reverse on Windows easily (I doubt your IT department would want to build a set of hackintoshes). You could even install Windows later using bootcamp, so by choosing Macs, you can still switch later, but you're locked into Windows (or Linux) on a Windows box.
Re:Windows XP? (Score:5, Interesting)
XP is dead. If you aren't stuck to a legacy system (as this guy isn't) you would be a complete fool to stick with XP. It would be a mistake you will constantly regret. Most of the things you would want to extend XP's features are built into 7/Server 2003. Remote administration, Patching, Application Control, Network Image Deployment, locking down the desktop like deep freeze does, all can be accomplished with built in (and supported) features. Security is also better (requiring drivers to be signed, built in support for full disk encryption, Memory address randomization, better default settings, better implementation of SFC, etc), and the systems are a lot more usable running as a non-admin without lots of extra scripting work. You also get better ip v6 support, and improved network performance in general. Just the fewer headaches in patching alone makes it worthwhile (even with a WSUS server, I find myself frequently manually updating XP machines, I've never once had to do it on a 7 machine).
The 7/Server 2008 networks we have deployed require substantially less maintenance then the XP networks. Support for XP is being phased out on new hardware, as it is you have to stick to certain long-term support models to get support for XP from the big OEM's (there's a difference between "heres some drivers, good luck" and officially supported). 7 is a mature OS, if it makes you feel better think of it as Vista service pack 3. Furthermore if you don't have the cash to shell out for VLC licenses, expect trouble when Microsoft drops downgrade rights on OEM licenses. Setting up a brand spanking new network with Windows XP is like making a brand new web app from scratch, and designing it in Visual Basic to only work in IE 6. You can do it, and the technology is tried and true, but you will be creating more work for an inferior result that will bite you in the ass in a short time frame. The only reason for not deploying 7 on new hardware where you are not constrained by legacy code is you want to stay in your comfort zone, and are scared to learn new things. If that's the case, you need to GTFO IT, it's the wrong field for you, and you are doing your clients/employers a disservice. Being skeptical of new technology is fine, but being irrationally afraid of it is stupid. As far as Engineering/Science goes, any commercial software package that can't run at all under 7 is probably on it's way out anyways. Whats bleeding edge today will be a generation behind by the time the students get into the real world.
All that said, I think XP/7 is the WRONG way to go. If you want a Windows environment, your best bet will be to buy some thin clients, network boot them with something like ThinStation, and have them RDP to a farm of nice beefy 2008 R2 Terminal Servers. Thin clients are the only thing I've seen hold up to a school environment. Unlike a corporate environment where you can expect the employees to only cause damage out of ignorance, high school students will be actively malicious, and will destroy/break/steal things just to do it. If you lose a thin client, the teacher can yank it out, pull a spare from the closet, and send the old one to be diagnosed/redeployed in your spare time. Because they are stateless, if one is stolen you are out a couple hundred bucks and not any information. It will be easier to setup a consistent environment, and you can shop around to different hardware vendors if needed while maintaining a consistent experience for the students. It will be easier to create flexible lesson plans, install software, and you can often really cut down on licensing costs. Thin client tech has come a long way, and if you spec your servers properly, and have a decent network, you can't tell the difference. I took a class in Solidworks (a ram hungry and CPU hungry 3d CAD program that makes your average office workstation dog slow) that was taught in a lab using thin clients and terminal servers, and it ran better on them then my personal laptop, despite having 20 other users on the same serve
Re:Technically real world use.... OSX (Score:1, Interesting)
> In 10 years of working in the medical and engineering fields,
> i've seen exactly 1 person use a mac at work.
my department is entirely staffed by research scientists and engineers of various flavors. A few run Linux, just 1 runs Windows, the entire rest of the staff from top to bottom are on Macs as their desktop installs (by choice). Some PCs exist for software/hardware that need it, but since the advent of VirtualPC and then intel Macs +VMs there haven't been any new PC purchaces that I can think of.
summary: YMMV, OSDNFA.
Funding (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know if this can be modded up to a 7 or 8, but it is very insightful as well as interesting.
Fact is, schools have to deal with Realistic Budgets and any computers they purchase will certainly need to be multiple-use and not just for the teaching of programming. They'll need to be general use, as well.
I run a small business and I recently purchased a new computer. It's a workstation-class computer and needs to be because of what I do. And I bought on the kinda cheap side from a top-tier manufacturer. This one computer cost me $7,500 (and I need to add RAM). If you have a class of 20 students, all of whom need a separate CPU, you're looking at a cost outlay of $157,500. Heck, my daughter's school just bought whiteboards and it took them about four years to raise the funds.
First thing I would do is find out how much budget you can sink into your project. That will guide what you can buy. Second thing I would do is hit your local Chamber of Commerce, Rotary Club, Kiwanas Club and so on and see if you can get local sponsorship for your project. Since you're a technology school, see if you can get a tech company to give you a grant as well. Target around a quarter million and you're looking at a first class lab that will begin to go obsolete as soon as you build it.
I realize I'm talking to a school teacher here. School teachers in high schools and elementary schools don't write grant proposals, because that's university stuff. But, by thinking in terms of raising funds, you suddenly place yourself on another playing field all together. And, with respect to computer purchases, bake sales just won't raise anywhere near sufficient funds. I know -- if it takes four years to get White Boards, your computing technology will be on life support by the time you can replace it.
Also if you develop the kinds of leads to get funding for this kind of a project, you will be set to upgrade and stay with current technology as you go forward. And if you have a tech company from your area that is supporting you, they will probably be able to offer you curriculum guidance for what they think they will need in the future as well.
As to platforms, the only computer that can run everything is made by Apple. You can install Windows, OS X, Linux, other Unix, emulators for iPhone and iPad, etc on a Mac. While workstations are really nice for schools, you might look at the Quad-Core processor iMac. The only downside I see to this computer is lack of hard disk space for multiple operating systems, so getting a server and having everything boot off a server might be the best solution for that problem. But the discussion of what hardware you should specify should take a serious back seat to funding.
An anecdotal sample... (Score:3, Interesting)
My perspective... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:For chemistry, biology and physics. . . (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a chemistry professor, and I want to agree with this post and follow-up. The bio side has lots of labs/departments that lean Mac-heavy. In chem, organic chemists have a larger Mac population than society/rest of chemistry, but it's still well under 50%. Physical chemists that are experimentalists are probably using something command-line on their instruments, because they probably built them themselves in the last few decades, and the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule applies (plus more modern computers aren't so great at supporting the connections needed, so you'd be rebuilding the whole instrument anyway.) The computational chemists typically use $nix systems, because they're working with computing clusters - though many of them do their analysis on PC/Mac platforms.
BUT, to re-address the original topic - I don't think there IS a good go-to operating system to use in a high school that will prepare students for the higher sciences, because as many have posted so far it depends what those students want to do later in life. As a teaching&research oriented prof who spend 2 days a week in the K-12 system for 4 years doing on-demand professional development and curriculum deepening, I can say that there are two key criteria to use in deciding what tool to use with the students:
- is the tool "ready to hand"? - http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/63450/abstract [wiley.com] is an example of what I mean
- are the 'big ideas' the students will develop from the task generalizable enough to be platform-independent?
These are central themes of the Technology in Science Education course I teach, for what it's worth.