Convincing Your Employer To Go With FOSS? 369
mark72005 writes "My employer is currently looking at adopting a content management system for use by our technical support staff (primarily first-line end user support, but hopefully it will include deeper levels of support personnel eventually). The candidates are currently Plone (OSS) and Confluence (proprietary, closed-source). For those with experience in each, what arguments in favor of Plone could be made to managers more interested in pragmatism than idealism?"
It's tougher than you think... (Score:5, Insightful)
My problem has been convincing them that they con't just pass of the cost of Windows to the customer. They like the fact that they can hire 3-4 MCSEs for the cost of one good Unix admin, but they don't realize that the Unix admin can set things up so that maintenance is much easier.
Windows is ingrained in business culture here, for the most part.
Cost (Score:3, Insightful)
Wrong order (Score:5, Insightful)
You've obviously decided which piece of software you want to recommend even though the only reason you can think of to recommend it is that it is FOSS? If the open software isn't as good it just isn't as good; just because it's FOSS doesn't mean that it is the be all and end all to solve your problems. Compare features, stability, cost, and support; if your boss is actively against FOSS make a point to explain it's advantages (and disadvantages if you want to be fair) and leave the decision to him. After all, it's entirely possible that the closed, proprietary solution fits your situation better; basically, its dishonest to make your decision and then go digging specifically for evidence to support that decision.
A good choice (Score:3, Insightful)
Count the minutes till the collapse (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you're looking at this backwards (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell them Open Office comes from Oracle.
Re:Cost (Score:5, Insightful)
Plone is only "free" in software. In my experience with open source CMSs -- Plone, Typo3, Drupal, Joomla -- you get best results by paying an expert to program and set it up initially to your specs. It looks better, runs smoother, etc.
I'm not that expert, by the way. I've just worked on projects that lacked an expert, and projects that had one, and the difference in result was night and day. The expertly-configured sites ran much better.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A good choice (Score:4, Insightful)
No they don't. We use a proprietary, closed source "ticket management system" for lack of a better word. This thing is horrid; it has no recordkeeping, no search to speak of, no customization.... I could go on. We also have no direct access to the database; all we can get is a CD of what are essentially static pages of a particular issue.
It's also pretty close to being abandoned. No new licenses are sold and no new features are being added; the whole thing is in maintenance mode.
They jumped the subcription about 6 fold last year. I argued strenuously for something like RT, even worked out the cost of adding our needed features - 1/10 of the cost of the annual subscription of the proprietary product.
No dice. Not windows based, not supported by a major vendor, not approved by MS.
They're back to evaluating other, closed source, proprietary, locked in systems. So basically some people never learn.
I washed my hands of the whole deal when I was told "That's not how we do enterprise" as a response to my suggestion to use FOSS.
Re:Wrong order (Score:2, Insightful)
This is right on the mark. As an employee, you're ethically obligated to help the company make the best decision for the company. It's not your place to decide to promote open source for the sake of open source.
This doesn't mean that open source is bad. You (and your manager) should objectively identify the advantages and disadvantages of each solution.
First, drop the bias (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to make a solid business case, you need to approach it objectively; what option will cost the least, in the short, medium and long term?
Maybe it's OSS, maybe it's not. But drop your bias right now before you research associated costs.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone knows that oracle makes software that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars...
so it has to be good, right?
Errr.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, I'd go with Confluence. It's not OSS, but it's and awesome Wiki. Choose what's the best tool for the job, not what suits your religion.
Re:Wrong order (Score:5, Insightful)
After that, IF the OSS product is superior and they're scared of the OSS boogieman enough to go with an inferior product after you've clearly outlined everything, you probably aren't going to be able to change their mind.
Re:Wrong order (Score:4, Insightful)
Hear hear!
For those with experience in each, what argument could be made in favor of Plone to managers interested in pragmatism rather than idealism?
If the questioner doesn't actually already have some compelling arguments in favor of this particular solution, then he is making his choice based on idealism instead of pragmatism.
Do an honest evaluation based on criteria that are important to your organization (including upfront cost, ongoing support, etc) and see what wins. Use a scoring spreadsheet or a decision making tool. You may decide that "open source vs. closed source" counts for 5% of your overall evaluation grade. Adherence to functional requirements may count for another 30%. NFR a further 15%. Whatever. That will produce your compelling arguments in favor of the better tool, and in an open, honest, and transparent manner.
Re:A good choice (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stallman's answer (Score:4, Insightful)
> Both are unhinged advocates for changes that will NEVER happen without first finding a genie.
Stallman's changes are already happening and as far as I know he has no access to a genie. If he had a genie he'd share it.
Re:Wrong order (Score:3, Insightful)
You've obviously decided which piece of software you want to recommend even though the only reason you can think of to recommend it is that it is FOSS?
Keep in mind that the blade cuts in both directions. There's this tenancy to paint any FOSS advocate as a zealot and the Proprietary side as "best tool for the job" pragmatists. However, there is zealotry to be found in the proprietary world as well to include strong biases and ignorance towards OSS products. You touched on this with noting "if your boss is actively against FOSS" but I think the point is worth stressing.
Re:Cost? (Score:3, Insightful)
That might be true, but in my experience the "support" you get from commercial CMS vendors is pretty much worthless. So if we assume that the FOSS support is equally worthless, at the very least FOSS gives you the advantage that you don't have to go through the vendor if there are bugs or other tweaks you want made.
Re:Stallman's answer (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as I can tell, the only thing that separates Richard Stallman from the bum that lives under a bridge near my home and rants incoherently at strangers is that Stallman has the ability to code.
How someone's personality disorder became a religion is beyond me. Oh, wait - *All* religions start that way.
Re:Confluence is Open Source (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, the source is open to you, therefore it is open source. Nothing else matters.
Re:Cost? (Score:5, Insightful)
In some institutional cultures there is a surprising power(assuming you don't step on the wrong toes) in Just Fucking Doing It. Obviously, unless you have really impressive guts and not too much sense, this doesn't mean putting a production server on an internet facing IP and hacking the company's DNS records to point to it; but showing up with a solid, functioning demo that everyone can gather around the projector and poke around at on their laptops can really sell something.
If a proprietary product isn't either available as a free demo version, and not through some subscription program you have to sign up for, or so expensive that the company will send a guy in a nice suit to do the demo, hand out some swag, and give everyone a really nice handshake, doing that with a proprietary product is hard and/or illegal.
Doing it with a FOSS(or freeware, admittedly) product is easy. You just throw something together in a VM and show it off.
That was my experience when I was trying to convince my employer to drop sharepoint for a wiki. They weren't turned off by the cost of sharepoint; but the fact that I was able to ask my boss for some time at one of our department meetings, get behind the projector and say "Hey, I threw this demo together in a weekend and put in some example content so you can get an idea of how we would use it. Easy web interface, versioning, strong ability to create links between otherwise disparate pieces of technical knowledge, check it out at $INTERNAL_IP..." Everyone pulled out their laptops, poked around a bit, there was some discussion, and the boss green-lighted it.
Had I given a speech about how we had to, like, fight the proprietary power, man, it would have gone nowhere. However, being able to just sit down, turn on, and show off, all without any serious backing or funding(because everything was free) allowed me to go from "nothing" to "green light-full production status". "Free" never entered into it in a hard financial way. However, had it not been free, I couldn't have done what I did. Now, Anecdote doesn't equal data, much less proof; but it is something to consider.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:5, Insightful)
You say that like it's a good thing.
To the people who make decisions, it is.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:5, Insightful)
- Dan.
Re:Stallman's answer (Score:3, Insightful)
Stallman is the Michael Savage of software. He seems reasonable until you hear him speak or read his writings.
Stallman is utterly unreasonable. He's also correct pretty much every time he predicts something. I wish the world had a few more unreasonable visionaries who were unwilling to compromise on their goals to make this a better place.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:3, Insightful)
As to liability, that is a real concern when you use FOSS, especially if you're a juicy fat corporate target. If Microsoft infringes on some patent or other, no big whoop, the patent holder will sue Microsoft and you as a customer will most likely not notice a thing. But if some FOSS product infringes on a patent, your company will be the target. At best you will be ordered to cease using the software, at worst you will be sued for damages. A client of mine actually had this happen to them (and they paid, too).
The good news is: both concerns can be addressed. To avoid blame for picking a dud falling on your manager's head, spread the blame. Get buy-in from as many stakeholders as you can, especially those high up in the food chain: the budget holder, company architect, service managers, project office manager, what have you... and when you approach one, make it clear that you will get (or already have) at least a tentative approval from the others. We've used this approach on one FOSS project, which in the end did get the green light.
To avoid legal exposure to IP infringements, find another company to take this risk off your hands by having them act as a "reseller". To my surprise there are actually quite a few companies offering FOSS solutions who are willing to take that risk, for a fee.
Re:Cost (Score:1, Insightful)
Linux is only truly free if your time is worth nothing. For most companies, the cost of implementation and support is much greater than the cost of the software itself. It's not just as simple as 'ingrained windows culture'. That's a copout that neckbeards use to retain their argument of superiority. Someone somewhere at these companies sat down, and did a total cost of ownership for each, and decided that proprietary software was the way to go.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:4, Insightful)
I do actually. I Expect the Next 3 versions of Open Office to work a lot more seemlessly than the past 3 versions of Microsoft Office.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:3, Insightful)
honestly it has made things a little easier for me trying to get it in use - although the BIGEST hurdle is the lacking of a mail client/server combo that is comparable to outlook/exchange.
I'll bash MS with everyone else - but outlook/exchange/project just don't have good oss/gnu replacements
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:2, Insightful)
Part of the problem with these certs. (i have an MCSE and took the classes) is that they teach you the MS way of doing things and that (like apple) everything just magically works, until you actually implement them in the "Real World" and find all the various tricks/hacks that you have to do to get it working. (luckily i had one of those instructors who was always telling us the parts that we need to know for the MS tests and what we "Really" needed to about xyz setup types like AD, Permissions, File Shares, various methods, etc... what worked and what didn't from various experiences and that every thing else we would learn over time and that would not getting a cert and put directly in charge at the top of any of this (seriously who thinks they can just get a cert for something new a be put in charge on day one for something they've never done before)
Every AD/File Share/GPO/Exchange setup is different there is no magic standard one-size fits all way of windows, And the only thing I've learned after 10 years is that books/tests don't actually teach you anything except how to pass the damn test which is basically just look at the MS website and note whatever marketting bullet points are listed and read everything you can about them.
When i took my test for 2000 Pro./Server/AD the sales pitch of the year was the all new RIS in Windows 2000 guess how many actually 2000 Pro./Server/AD questions i had to answer? "NONE AT ALL!", now guess how many were RIS? "EVERY DAMN ONE!" I've never actually used RIS in our environment once, never even installed the damn thing outside a test server once or twice to play with. (always used Ghost and Sysprep for our production deployment) Don't care if i ever use RIS or not.
Experience/Time and Actually setting the damn thing up and playing with it in a test environment are the only things that actually teach you anything. i.e. setup an AD server and some clients, make some groups and see how GPOs are applied and how they work, delete your DNS zone files, hose the AD registry, lockout all the domain admin account, delete some exchange folders blindly, etc... and then try to fix them.
Basically TEST everything, then do it again everything else is most likely something that isn't in the books and you just have to learn as you go.
Re:Stallman's answer (Score:2, Insightful)
I once asked Richard Stallman how to convince my school to go with FOSS instead of Windows, since most of our CS lab was on Windows.
His reply: "Defenestration! Throw Windows out of the computer, or throw the computer out the window!"
Thus demonstrating why Stallman fails to convince anyone of anything, ever.
Re:Stallman's answer (Score:3, Insightful)
Stallman is the Michael Savage of software. He seems reasonable until you hear him speak or read his writings.
Stallman is utterly unreasonable. He's also correct pretty much every time he predicts something. I wish the world had a few more unreasonable visionaries who were unwilling to compromise on their goals to make this a better place.
I just wish the ones we have would learn effective communication skills.
Re:how WRONG can you get about "open source"? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, it is YOU who should go invent your own phrase, and YOU who is wrong. Open has a clearly defined meaning in English, and the OSI and FSF have no mandate to redefine the language. What you refer to is more adequately called Free Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS) because it doesn't try to redefine the common vernacular.
Re:Wrong order (Score:2, Insightful)
Excellent work on your part. You installed your preferred software on someone else's machine without giving any consideration to the experience of the person who will be using it. Often times, when two competing products are both viable solutions, one is chosen simply because the user is already familiar with it. This can lead to a significant improvement in productivity by reducing or eliminating the learning period, which, in the end, can save far more than the cost of the software.
But you can continue to pat *yourself* on the back for being self-centered over a lousy $140.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:5, Insightful)
and to be even fairer than that - if you actually run into that limitation, if you have a spreadsheet with anywhere near 65K rows then UR DOING IT WRONG.
whatever it is you are doing, there are *far* better ways of doing it than with a spreadsheet.
Re:Wrong order (Score:2, Insightful)
What really happened is a guy, who should have known better, installed an unfamiliar application onto someone elses computer, offered no training or guidance during the transition, and then proceeded to tell the decision maker of the institution why he should be grateful.
If my boss says to me "We want Office 2010" I will obviously mention LibreOffice, maybe even offer to install it side by side with a trial of Office 2010 so they can be better informed of the options and make better decisions.
What I won't do is install LibreOffice, tell them they're wrong for wanting the product they wish for, then post about it on a forum to earn some nerd-cred. After all, they're paying me. I offer my advice and expertise for that, but I don't go against their wishes when a decision is made.
Two words: Vendor lockin (Score:4, Insightful)
Point out that the vendor can and will kill off a product and support for that product OR charge like a wounded bull for specialised support OR that the company may fold, and that they are not legally obligated to continue a product that the company may become dependent up. Then point out that in the case of open source, it is possible to hire someone to develop the product further and support it, and that even if there is a cost penalty it won't be extortionate.
All other arguments are a waste of time for mission critical applications. Open source may or may not be cheaper.
Re:It's tougher than you think... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not sure what *far* better way you envision.
Accountants, those in finance, etc.. generally do not have any computer skills outside of Excel. They routinely work with large data sets. I remember finance dept. folks working around the 65k limit by having 65k rows per tab, and then combining calculations on the rows on a final tab.
The amount of excel equations, nesting, and loops was actually pretty impressive for having no programming experience. When I supported those types of workers, I remember having some success moving certain parts of their work into real databases, making web front ends, etc.. for their data, but quite a bit of it stayed in spreadsheets.
Financial folks often need to do pretty complex calculations, and excel provides a fairly intuitive way to start with small step calculations, and combine those many small steps into something that resembles a full blown program.