Should a Web Startup Go Straight To the Cloud? 442
Javaman59 writes "I am a one person company developing a web site from home. The site is hoped to attract millions of accounts and daily hits (just to give an idea of the scale of things, as its important to the question). My infrastructure is currently Visual Studio 2010 on a PC. To progress the site I need to set up version control, continuous integration, and staging. I have a Win2008 server VM, with all the Windows software (free and legal) to do this. However, I am only just competent as a Win admin, and I foresee each step of the way (setting up a domain; SQL-Server, etc) as a slow, risky process, and a big disruption to development. Should I forget my VM server (it will make a nice games machine!) and just go straight to the cloud for all my infrastructure?"
Google App Engine. (Score:0, Informative)
Don't use MS products if you want to scale.
Google App Engine. Steep learning curve but worth it.
Windows web server (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Your not qualified (Score:4, Informative)
I think you are right, but he's probably taking on this challenge because no one else can dedicate the time or effort he can. At least not for free.
In his situation what should he do? Just give up before he has even started? A more proactive approach is to admit there is a lot to learn, but it is by no means insurmountable. It will just take a lot longer.
Sometimes that is the only realistic option available to people. I admire his can-do attitude. It will be one hell of a learning experience!
Actual Entrepreneur Here (Score:2, Informative)
However this is the plan and the reasoning.
- Windows Server 2008 R2: - ASP.Net + MVC3 + Entity Framework 4.1 w/ POCO + C# is simply a fantastic development platform. You are a single person which likely means your time is the optimizing factor, NOT cost. Otherwise use Linux + Apache as it will save you in the long term.
- MySQL over MSSQL: MySQL is a nearly identical engineering experience for a site of your scale and will save you 10s of thousands of licensing costs in the long run. See the MySQL .Net connector. If you are bold try MongoDB, however it sounds like you are most comfortable with RDBMS and we are optimizing for your time.
- Source control: GIT, then SVN, then Perforce; by order of preference. The first two are free, the last one is used widely in professional shops (MSFT for example). Your choice.
- Cloud: Assuming you have the dev chops to target it, don't. As a one man operation, doing this now will sap your time and you will never ship. Design for the scale you have and not the scale you want.
- Licensing: Google Microsoft BizSpark and enroll. As a startup you get something like the first 3 years unlimited licenses for a few hundred bucks.
Notes:
1. This optimizes for getting you to market quickest.
2. This minimizes your long term licensing costs (Windows Server ONLY).
3. This assumes that once you get to market and start acquiring customers, you will get traction needed to invest in fancy things like building for the cloud.
Everything else is premature optimization.
Look at Azure (Score:4, Informative)
Re:What sort of a question is that? (Score:5, Informative)
Reality is in the big picture, there is no difference between MS OSs and anyone else.
Except that adding another server to handle more load will cost a couple grand per seat on Windows (Hardware plus licensing) where on an OSS platform you only pay for the hardware.
Your argument that it is possible to do is beside the point, since no one is saying Windows can't scale. The point is the cost of doing so.
The poster stated he is using the Microsoft route since that is what he is familiar with. And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you have firmly in the front of your mind that is what you are doing, and there will be huge costs involved to do that.
Since his question was about costs, specifically keeping them down, you can not expect people to not recommend tools that perform the same function just as well yet are free.
If he wasn't willing to change from what he is familiar with, he wouldn't have asked for cheaper options, and would have just accepted the fact he must pay a lot of money to stay with the familiar.
Google App Engine (Score:5, Informative)
I'd recommend you drop Visual Studio and Windows and "go to the cloud" on an environment that is already scaled out. There are a few options, but I think one of the easiest to set up and get going on is Google's App Engine system. I don't know what your preferred programming language is, and if it's not Java or Python (or Go), then you're going to have to switch, but all of those are easy languages to learn and the time required to learn them will be trivial compared to the rest of what it's going to take you to build a significant site. The App Engine SDKs are pretty easy to work with and provide a lot of powerful tools, and your site will be running on Google's infrastructure so you know it'll scale as far as you need it to. The free quota will allow you approximately 5 million pageviews per month, so there's plenty of room for initial growth. When you get to where you need more than that you should also have some cash flowing in to allow you to buy more quota.
If you're concerned about being tied to Google (a valid concern), I'd also recommend that you put some thought into placing a layer between your business logic and Google's APIs. I wouldn't make a huge investment in that, because it's the sort of thing that can soak up a LOT of time, so much that you never actually get your site off the ground, but a little thought up front will make it much easier to migrate to your own platform when you have the revenue to justify hiring all the people you need to do that (because it's a BIG job).
The nice thing is that you can start small, for free (other than your time, of course), and have plenty of room to test your ideas and your approach on the small-to-medium scale before it actually costs you anything, other than your time. Then by the time you're ready to scale up, you should know what you need, and hopefully have the cash to fund it. Or, if it doesn't work out, at least you minimized your sunk cost.
(Disclaimer: I'm a Google employee. That actually has little to do with my recommendation, other than that my employment has motivated me to play with App Engine and I've been impressed with what I've seen, but I feel it should be mentioned.)
Cloud++ @Javaman59 (Score:4, Informative)
P.S. 2nd vote for Azure if you're sticking with a M$ platform.
Re:Hmm... (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry, this is BS. I am a one-person company that has been around for several years (growing soon to a more-than-one-person company) and we are MS partners and use their SPLA (Software Provider Licensing Agreement) to get our clients access to things like SQL on the cheap. We use the Web edition of Win Server 2008 on our two servers and our annual expenses for MS products with maybe ten clients needing SQL licenses are maybe $700, which we collect back in the form of hosting fees.
We started out with MS just because SQL Server did a few things that we needed that MySQL didn't do back in '03/'04, and that's no longer the case -- so I'm not saying this to knock OSS. But MS software does not require 'shitloads of cash,' at least, not for a web shop.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)
You can use BizSpark and avoid any licensing costs until you are a viable business.http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/
They also have a ton of support for startups, including funding if they really like you.
Re:Hmm... (Score:4, Informative)
So, you have a CAL for everyone that is going to connect to IIS? or a special Web license for IIS (I forget what that is called).. Do you have processor licenses for SQL Server? or one CAL for each user that might use the site? (and remember, its one Processor License for processor in the physical machine, not how many you expose to the VM, at about $6K per processor). Do you have the Machine CALs for each machine that is going to connect to Active Directory? Do you have a proper MSDN Development license?
See why most stuff on the internet and cloud run Linux yet?
Your data on the licensing is incorrect. Here is where you can read about it. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/licensing-R2.aspx [microsoft.com] For example, windows web server is $469 USD list and requires NO cal's. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/pricing.aspx [microsoft.com]
If you can't be bothered to read, you could even call their sales line and just ask. Voice: 1-800-Microsoft (642-7676)
I'm no Microsoft fanboy, but if you're going to argue about stuff like this you should get your facts straight first.
Re:I call shenanigans. His username is "javaman" (Score:2, Informative)
So lots of 'helpful' people can tell him to use Azure obviously.
I think the only people that read slashdot these days are Microsoft astroturfers..
Re:Hmm... (Score:5, Informative)
Web Server 2008 R2 is severely limited. You have to run your database under the same OS instance as the web server, for example, and you are not allowed to access that database from any other machine. This means that you can't, for example, poll data from your database for processing -- that's against the license terms, and you need to change to a CAL license.
Oh, and of course, the database is not included. If you want to use MSSQL, Microsoft does have a web edition, but it lacks a couple of much used features, and costs $3500 per processor + $876 per year in software assurance. And you can't even buy it unless you're a volume license customer.. And it too has the strange requirement that you can't hook any other applications up to the database, even if it is to make use of the data you get from web users. A CRM system? Specifically forbidden.
If you can't live with that restriction, or don't have volume licensing, MSSQL standard might be the cheapest alternative.at $7171 per CPU, plus $1793 yearly software assurance.
The price of the OS then becomes rather irrelevant.
In pure license costs, LAMP is cheaper. Even if you go with the most expensive solution, Red Hat Enterpris Linux.
However, it can be much harder to get someone competent to admin LAMP systems (and much easier to get someone incompetent).
tl;dr: If you wnat to play, be prepared to pay. Either in license costs and downtime, or salaries.
TANSTAAFDBA+SADM