Ask Slashdot: Am I Too Old To Learn New Programming Languages? 772
ProgramadorPerdido writes "I have been a developer for 25 years. I learned Basic, VB, C, FoxPro, Cobol, and Assembler, but the languages I used the most were Pascal and Delphi. I then concentrated on a now-non-mainstream language for 11 years, as it was used at work. One day I had the chance to move into Project Management and so I did for the last 2 years. Now, at almost 40 years old, I'm at a crossroad. On one side I realized developing is the thing I like best, while on the other side, the languages I'm most proficient with are not that hot on the market. So I came here looking for any advice on how to advance my career. Should I try to learn web development (html, xhtml, css, php, python, ruby)? Should I learn Java and/or C#? Or am I too old to learn and work a new language? Should I go back to PM work even if I do not like it that much? Any similar experiences?"
Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm 55, a programmer, and I've been out of work for two years. I've had plenty of interviews, but no job offers. Here's my take on all of this: I'm too old to be a programmer. I'll put my "management hat" on and tell you why:
1. I'm old. One 5 hour energy drink revvs up your basic 20 year old code monkey all day. I need a saline drip with caffeine in it all day to keep going.
2. I'm expensive. I have 30 years of experience in the 'biz and a masters degree in CS. I'm not cheap. You could hire two 25 year olds for what I'm asking.
3. (and what I consider to be my greatest failing in the corporate world) I've seen all the tricks. I've been exposed to every nasty little mindgame management has at it's disposal. And sometimes I have the bad manners to call people on it. This is called "having a bad attitude".
So when I compete against 20-somethings in the worst economy since 1929 (I hesitate to say the worst economy ever), I lose. I should have made the leap to management when I had the chance, not because I would have loved management (I would have had to manage assholes like me, after all ;), but because at 40 you have TWENTY YEARS LEFT. The years go by really, really fast. You should really start thinking about a soft place to land when you're 60 now, because if you aren't in line to be a VP or a Director you ain't gonna make it at this point.
The suggestion to "Follow Your Bliss" only works in an economy that's not run by sociopaths. Hell, it only works in a country that's not run by sociopaths. Strike one strike two. Tighten your belt, put as much money away as you can, and make sure you keep your health up. Because the era of "company loyalty" is over, COBRA for a family costs as much as your mortgage, and finding a new job is going to be a real challenge.
Other than that, have a nice day! :D
Never too old... till you stop (Score:5, Insightful)
I firmly believe you're too old to learn the day you stop learning.
Never ever quite learning the latest and greatest in programming, to do any less is condemning ones own career path.
Having recently joined the ranks of older programmers I still find that I can completely crush the new kids by leveraging that vast experience I already have.
Dust off the learning hat and get back into the fight man, 40 isn't a time to lay down and die... last I heard 30 was the new 20 and 40 was the new 30... and we're all going to be broke in this economy so who cares in the end?
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
Which means, most of us will end up on the street if we want to stay developers or system engineers.
I'm nearly 35, and I'm started to feel it. Like you, I have years of development under my belt and a nice amount of system engineering. I have a nice job, but management has changed and I see the first signs of decline. I've been looking around and ... basically, everywhere where I show up, I'm told I'm too expensive.
I have another 5 years left in the field and I'm aware of it.... I have no idea what I'll have to do after that. Project Management? I don't think I could do it, I'll be rooting for the devs all the time because I understand them better than the users. I can't do it...
I wonder what will happen if all a whole generation of IT people are out of work because they are "too expensive". Keep in mind that the age I'm in, means I'm basically starting my "life"... Married, mortgage, kids (or thinking of kids). The prospect of being out of a job in 5 years frightens me to no end.
However, for the original question: If you could program one language, you can program in any language. It's inherent on the Turing-completeness of programming languages. It's all just a matter of syntax. Sure, mastering a language takes time, but you've probably see already much things and that means you can easily apply what you know to the knew languages.
Web development, Classic development, or "App" development. Doesn't matter, pick your poison. In the end, you always end up writing to fuzzy customer specs and management that wants a Ferrari for the price of a Yugo.
It's simple (Score:4, Insightful)
If you think you might be too old, then you are.
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
It's inherent on the Turing-completeness of programming languages. It's all just a matter of syntax. Sure, mastering a language takes time, but you've probably see already much things and that means you can easily apply what you know to the knew languages.
I don't really know how much longer this will remain true.
Yes, the fundementals are the same.. but programming is becoming more and more about gluing higher level components together. Knowing what these components are and how they behave is becoming the marker of being experienced in a language. This experience is of course largely non-transferable. As we move more towards this, I suspect jumping from one language to another will become harder. It's already kinda like that with Java. A c++ guy can learn java's syntax pretty quick.. but learning how all the defacto tools and libraries around it work (hibernate, jboss, spring..) takes time and experience specific to Java.
Too Old to learn a programmign language at 40? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hogwash. I didn't start working as a software developer until I was 50. I learned Java, Perl and PHP in a year or so. I already knew C and FORTRAN at that time. Since then I've taught myself Python, Javascript, Scala and Ruby. I've recently started Erlang.
A year later I taught my father C; he was in his mid 70's and wanted to right some software to do some statistical analysis of stock data.
Don't let these whippersnappers tell you you can't do it. The fact is that is they know it, it's easy. The stuff that is actually hard is the math, and since you went to school more 20-30 years ago you have a far better education in the fundamentals that count than they do.
NOW GET OFF MY LAWN.
Money or Love (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been in the biz a long time. My observation is that you probably have to choose between doing what you like and money. If you like money more than personal work satisfaction, pick the management route. It's the better choice for us geezers finance-wise. But if you truly prefer coding, and money is secondary, then go for it. You may have to dumb-down your coding resume a bit, for "experience" works against you, and keep your asking price mellow. Only briefly mention your distant experience on your resume, they don't know or care what a DEC is.
Lower your expectations the older you get (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm nigh on 58 and still a developer. I am content to keep writing code.
I tried being a PM and it amlost drove me into an early grave. It is not for me.
So I went back to developing.
The company where I worked went belly up two years ago. Sure it took me a while to get another job. Not for the reasons stated but many companies couldn't hack the 'I don't want to be a Manager' answer to the where do you see yourself in 5 years question.
Finally I got a job where they were happy with that answer.. sure I could earn a load more if I were willing to commute for 3hrs a day but those days are behind me.
In three or so years I'll call it a day and retire. I will be able to afford to do that because I saved loads in my 20's, 30's & 40's.
to the OP,
Stay with it. There will be a job somewhere for you. Somewhere that will appreciate your experience and honesty.
Good luck
You're just a boy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
2. I'm expensive. I have 30 years of experience in the 'biz and a masters degree in CS. I'm not cheap. You could hire two 25 year olds for what I'm asking.
So it's better for your personal situation to stay unemployed than to lower your salary requirements?
The suggestion to "Follow Your Bliss" only works in an economy that's not run by sociopaths
But it works remarkably well in an economy run by hedonists!
Re:Never too old... till you stop (Score:4, Insightful)
I firmly believe you're too old to learn the day you stop learning
,,, and this guy is in the danger zone by even asking.
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
2. I'm expensive. I have 30 years of experience in the 'biz and a masters degree in CS. I'm not cheap. You could hire two 25 year olds for what I'm asking.
So: Are you twice as productive as two average 25 year olds?
bye, Paul.
Productive isn't about raw lines of code generated, its about doing it right the first time. (Because you have made the mistakes, or seen others make them, before.)
example: This week one of my developers made an error in a data exchange program he was working on... I found out after he had spent 2 days trying to figure it out. In less than 2 hours I fixed the error, restored the data to it's pre-fuckup state, and replayed all the transactions that occurred over the course of those 2 days. It's not because I am a better coder than he is (I'm not), it's because I have seen that error before -aka experience.
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
> 2. I'm expensive. I have 30 years of experience in the 'biz and a masters degree in CS. I'm not cheap. You could hire two 25 year olds for what I'm asking.
So: Are you twice as productive as two average 25 year olds?
bye, Paul.
Obviously I can't say how productive Number6.2 is, but my answer would be very likely.
The 25-year-old will work an 80-hour week and churn out a couple of thousand lines of code... Which you'll need to replace twice in six months due to unforseen performance issues.
The 55-year-old - if he's good - will stare off into space for a few minutes while he compares the current problem with past projects, and then come up with a 200 line solution that doesn't have those unforseen performance issues because he's seen it before.
In terms of LOC, the 25-year-old is going to be "better". In terms of building systems that work, I'll take the 55-year-old any day.
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
No True Scotsman.
Try not using an intentional logical fallacy.
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
I started out as a developer, then 25+ years ago got pulled into the "business side". Now I'm a VP in a really, really huge company. So my perspective will be a bit non-Slashdot-traditional.
If the OP has a job in project management, stay there. It may not be what you love, but's a regular job, and you are more able to help others avoid the snake pits you've encountered over the years than if you were pounding code. Display a positive attitude, and see if maangement is an option. It may be safer, but is more boring (trust me). You make that call, you can ask your boss to job shadow a manager, perhaps. But this will never happen if you don't have a good attitude, which incluides not ripping on stupid management decisions. If you disagree, keep your mouth shut, unless it's an ethics or compliance violation. Demonstrating that you see through the management BS and calling them on it will NEVER help your career, will NEVER reverse a bad decision, and WILL drag down team morale when the 20-somethings see that the veterans are opposed. You may feel smug, but it will never make things any better. No one will think you're smart, worldly, or wise.
As a "business partner" here are some things never to forget:
OF COURSE the business requirements are fuzzy. If the business side wrote very detailed, very clear, actionable, testable, realistic requirements, we wouldn't need half as many tech people. Our job is to figure out what needs to be done - not to have thought through every edge-case before calling you. Please help us through that.
I dread walking into an IT meeting and seeing a bunch of 50+ people. Bear in mind I'm really close to that myself. I want to see people who WANT to get my project done. Most of the 50+ programmers I encounter are chiefly concerned with demonstrating they know more about technology than I do (rarely true), with telling me why a project CAN'T be done, why this isn't how WE do things around here, and that I'm not "following the process". Maybe my project is stupid, it's true - I've been there many times, on both sides. Or maybe you don't know as much about my job as you think you do, and don't have the perspective to effectively judge.
Every career stalls. There is one CEO - or maybe one a year - but it won't be you, statistically speaking. So you'll top out somewhere. When you near 50, and find yourself in a boring job that either isn't what you love, or you've done it hundreds of times and can do it in your sleep, then start thinking about how you'll spend your retirement, and begin prepping. Give the company 8-9-?? good hours a day, then focus on building your future. Retirement is often 30 years long. How will you spend it? Is now the time to buy a small cabin down by the lake? Start a hobby that you love? Volunteer in the community? Go back to school? Even with 10 years left, most of the rest of your life will be post-work. Don't wait for your last year to plan.
No matter what your job is, whom you work for, what industry you work in, or what country you live in, people want to work with other people who are positive and try to be helpful. Is your attitude, demeanor, and work product demonstrating that? If not, you can be sure you'll always get the crap jobs - working with the irritating business partner who has just as bad an attitude as you, most often.
just some thoughts.
Re:Stay Put (Score:5, Insightful)
Republicans, as a whole, are not true conservatives. Your point?
The only difference between Republicans and Democrats is in their method of taxation:
The net effect is exactly the same except that the tax that the Republicans favor tends to disproportionately affect the poor. It's basically equivalent to a sales tax or a corporate tax, except that it is achieved in such a way that you can't pedantically call it a tax.
Anybody who says the current crop of so-called conservatives don't tax is... well, to roughly quote Futurama, "Bureaucrat CoolHand2120, you are technically correct—the best kind of correct."