Ask Slashdot: Does Being 'Loyal' Pay As a Developer? 735
An anonymous reader writes "As a senior developer for a small IT company based in the UK that is about to release their flagship project, I know that if I were to leave the company now, it would cause them some very big problems. I'm currently training the other two 'junior' developers, trying to bring them up to speed with our products. Unfortunately, they are still a long way from grasping the technologies used – not to mention the 'interesting' job the outsourced developers managed to make of the code. Usually, I would never have considered leaving at such a crucial time; I've been at the company for several years and consider many of my colleagues, including higher management, to be friends. However, I have been approached by another company that is much bigger, and they have offered me a pay rise of £7k to do the same job, plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life. That said, I can't help but feel that to leave now would be betraying my friends and colleagues. Some friends have told me that I'm just being 'soft' – however I think I'm being loyal. Any advice?"
Tacos for dinner (Score:3, Insightful)
Always a shitty situation. Sometimes I think you can grow with a company.. they get bigger, can pay you more/give you better opportunities. In most cases though, it seems that eventually you outgrow a small company. You grow faster than they do, and gradually the outside offers get more and more tempting.
This kind of thing is hard for me, because I have the same “leaving now would screw these guys” kind of thinking. You’ll be hearing from the “business is business, do what’s best for you, they’d drop you in a heartbeat if they could save a buck” crowd soon enough.
The only thing I can say is that people are usually not as critical as would seem. I’ve been amazed on several occasions at how quickly someone I would describe as “if we lose him we are screwed” is replaced. People step up and figure shit out. It is rocky, and will cause headaches, but eventually people make it work.
I don't think your hangup is loyalty... (Score:5, Insightful)
...it's the fear of the unknown. What if it's not as good as it looks? If you're making more money and gaining an hour and a half every day it's a no brainer.
Ask yourself ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Ask yourself what they'd do if somebody came along and offered to do your job for 7 grand less.
Does your company have loyalty to you? (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to remember that your company has no loyalty to you. If their revenues drop and they have to save money, your job will be on the line!
Always do whats best for you and yours (family).
Why not use it as a bargaining chip? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask for a raise, see if you get it.
Loyalty is a consideration - but first comes paying the bills. Are you happy and satisfied with where you work, and your style of living? Would the 7k increase be worth it for you, to switch, and leave them where they are? Company is about risks and resources, if they don't manage their resources and take a risk at loosing something that is important and even key to what they are doing, it is their problem, not yours.
Go for it, AND be loyal (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds like a deal you shouldn't pass up. And I admire your loyalty. Your new employer will appreciate your loyalty, too, when you explain to them how you still need to help your old company out.
I am sure they would accommodate your working with your old employer until they can get on their feet once again. Perhaps telecommute some, or work at the old job a few days a week.
If they had objections to that, I would question wanting to work for them...
No commute? (Score:4, Insightful)
plus their office is practically outside my front door (as opposed to my current 45 minute commute each way). This would make a massive difference to my life.
The commute alone is worth switching for. That's an (unpaid) hour and a half of your life that you get back.
Loyalty? (Score:4, Insightful)
Loyalty to your employer? Are you kidding? They would fire your ass in a heartbeat as soon as the numbers exhibit a downturn. Our parents' generation could rely on employers to consider loyalty a two-way street; you don't job surf and they give you all kinds of benefits including pensions, profit sharing, and so on. Now, decision makers don't think twice about firing thousands of workers when the numbers take a temporary dip, just so they can show shareholders a temporary spike in profits to get their bonuses.
Besides, do you live to work, or do you work to live?
Fuck loyalty to your employer. Take the better offer.
Document (Score:5, Insightful)
Either way, you should document the hell out of everything so that if you were hit by a bus tomorrow they wouldn't be similarly fucked.
You should leave (Score:2, Insightful)
If upper mgmt were REALLY your friends, they would want what's best for you. If they are bitter about you leaving, then they are not really your friends.
Ultimately, you need to do what's best for YOU.
Consulting (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty... (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. I'm actually on my last day of my two weeks of notice (it's typical, gave me a little time to train my co-workers. If they can't pick it up, I wasn't being paid enough.)
Give them plenty of notice, spend your last days passing on whatever knowledge you can to help (if you really care) and let them manage. If they really want to keep you aboard they may come back with a counter, but I think most companies understand that would be an awkward situation so they probably won't.
Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell your current company about the offer, and see if you get a counter-offer.
(and if they don't counter, you know how you're valued. Leave.)
Re:Loyalty? (Score:5, Insightful)
Loyalty to some nameless corporation? No.
But ultimately, life is about the relationships you build.
Your manage, that product manger, your director, your coop students, your underlings...
These are people like any other who understand loyalty.
Loyalty to the company and these folks is different, but intertwined.
You don't leave the company without leaving all those individuals
It's a complicated social world and you have to be smart about it.
I would never leave a good job for a few thousand.
1. Ask your employer to match the salary. A few thousand is nothing for a company. The sales guy probably drink that much in a month.
2. In the grand scheme, do you enjoy the work? Do you like your colleagues?
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is if they match their offer. Then they feel like that you now owe them one. And you will not get your raise or promotion anytime soon. Or they will now expect much greater things from you. Overall it is better to take the new offer and put in your notice. That way you leave on good terms, and don't do anything to disrupt the terms you are in.
Re:Tacos for dinner (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed, give fair notice and make the move if you think the new company is a good match for you.
Loyalty is a good thing, but sometimes it also holds back the people you are being loyal to.
That depends... (Score:4, Insightful)
So, here's the question: if you job, by virtue of size/holding structure of company, psychological profile of leader figures, etc. is still small enough that its behavior is largely governed by "human" heuristics, loyalty can pay off. They will know who their loyal people are, value that, and your long-term payoff(especially if the product launch goes well) is likely to be good.
If the company is larger than a certain size, run by sociopaths, or otherwise no longer governed by conventional human logic, the management will still recognize "loyal" employees; but by "loyal" they mean "sucker who will stay around for more punishment, for illogical emotional reasons, until we suck him dry and throw his husk away". Bad situation...
That's the real trick. Being loyal to people is usually a pretty good idea. Being loyal to an organization or sociopath who considers you a "human resource" and your "loyalty" to be a form of primitive emotional weakness that makes you easier to exploit is always a terrible, terrible plan.
If your employer would(hypothetically), tell you to clean out your desk and instruct security not to let the door hit your worthless ass on the way out if you were to get sick and be expected to be less productive because of treatment/recovery for a period of time, then it is a fairly safe bet that you are just an "input" to them. If so, fuck-em. They'd fuck you over for money, and it looks like you've been handed the change to do unto them before they do unto you.
If, in that same hypothetical situation, they would exhibit care, understanding, concern, accomodation, etc, it is probable that they are the sort of entity that will recognize, value, and reciprocate loyalty...
Re:Does your company have loyalty to you? (Score:4, Insightful)
You have to remember that your company has no loyalty to you.
He works for a small company, and that's not always the case.
Re:What would Ayn Rand do? (Score:4, Insightful)
Take the new job and laugh all the way to the bank. Seriously, just give them notice, and take the new job.
I agree with the idea of "WWARD?" but I don't think you understand what Ayn Rand would do.
What is the risk of that extra £7k? One thing Rand understood was TANSTAAFL. A £7k raise isn't a good move if the new company goes out of business in 6 months. Or if you're trading in a 10 minutes commute for 90 minutes in traffic.
But more money from a company closer to home with no discernible difference in company stability or advancement potential? Why is this a question? Is there some other factor?
Are you going from Puppies and Rainbows, LLC to Fire & Brimstone, Inc?
Working with friends is nice. Changing jobs doesn't mean they aren't your friends anymore. You do (or should) have a life outside of work. If they're 'work friends' you only see during the day, they'll be replaced by new work friends at the new job.
As for your friends in management, they aren't. I've known plenty of people (and been one of those people) screwed by management they previously thought of as friends. The higher up the friends were, the bigger the screwing.
On the other hand, I've never heard of someone not affected by lay-offs or other company action due to protection from friends. I've seen it happen due to good managers looking out for their employees, but never due to friends.
So seriously, more money and much shorter commute? No diggity, no doubt.
Re:Tacos for dinner (Score:5, Insightful)
You might get offered more but you might be the first cut as well. £7k more is a huge amount but it won't help you if you're unemployed because the shop is one of those hire/fire cycling places. Unless you're the type of person who can find a job within a weekend based on your skillset and persona.
Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty... (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on the industry. If you leave a company like in a situation like that then there are two things that may happen. One is that the company really couldn't afford to lose you at that time, and goes bust. You'll then have a company that went bankrupt on your CV, which doesn't look great, especially if the next person hiring you knows why. The second is that your former manager may be friends with the next person you want to hire you, and lets them know that you left them in the lurch.
Given the description in the summary, I would definitely take the job, but there are several ways of doing it. First, talk to both managers. See if you can get a bit more time before you move. Also see if the new company would be willing to subcontract you out to the old company for a day or two a month for the next year to ease the transition. This gives the new company some extra income and gives the old company the time to finish training your replacements.
Re:Bargain (Score:4, Insightful)
That's really risky proposition. The problem is that they might give you the raise to keep you... While they train your replacement. Then you've lost your current job and don't have another one lined up.
Re:No commute? (Score:4, Insightful)
Negotiation: 101 (Score:5, Insightful)
"well, we don't have the budget to do anything now, but I'll <ahem> make sure you are rewarded when you review comes round in X months time."
You're now in the worst possible situation. You've played your hand and got a commitment that almost certainly won't match the offer you have; either financially or in terms of commute, or wider opportunities in the new place. But it gets worse. You've also told your employer that you're willing to dump them - so you're now top of the list of people to sack - especially as the guy is at present training 2 more people (his replacements).
Also, the "I've got a better offer" is only a ploy you can use once. So if you do stay, you are unlikely to ever get the chance to bluff for another payrise - and you can bet that in years to come any above-average rise will get brought back into line with below-par awards in coming years.
Re:Bargain (Score:3, Insightful)
Tell your current company about the offer, and see if you get a counter-offer.
Do not do this! This is terrible advice. As an IT manager, I would be pissed if someone came to me with leverage. Being forced to make a decision is not pleasant. I would much rather have the employee come to me with a business case for giving him or her a raise. If I am worth my pay, I know what the resource is worth and will come up with the raise if I can and it is within my budget. Do not accept any stalling tactics as you could lose both opportunities.
One other thing to consider is that managers will reduce cost if pressured to do so. If you are expensive and seen as replaceable with minimum impact, you will be replaced. It is rare that loyalty (reverse to what you discussed) is given in that situation.
Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty... (Score:5, Insightful)
...it's the fear of the unknown. What if it's not as good as it looks? If you're making more money and gaining an hour and a half every day it's a no brainer.
As my mother always said: "Never love anything that can't love you back." A company is a perfect example of this. And you're absolutely correct that fear of the unknown is a factor. That isn't necessarilly a bad thing -- because the new job might have unknown deficiencies (as well as benefits). Its a cost-benefit analysis without full information, rather than a no brainer:
current job:
negative aspects (less pay; long commute)
positive aspects (friends, including among management)
new job:
negative aspects (no friends, others??)
positive aspects (more pay, short commute, others??)
The question is, do the known positives make up for the risk of the unknown negatives?
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
I once worked at a company and received a job offer with considerably higher pay. I put in my notice, and they offered to match it. Same story so far, however, there were no repercussions or bad feelings. Note: I didn't ask them to counter the offer, I simply said that the opportunity was too good to pass up and that I had to leave. The value of "something" is what people are willing to pay for it. In my opinion, this includes my skill set as well.
I've managed many developers and my advice to them was that if they received a better offer they should go for it. I was more concerned for them, personally, than the company I worked for. Upper management controlled pay rates but they did not control my concern and care for those that worked for/with me. Of course, this was good for morale and benefited the company in the long run.
That all being said, it could go either way. The outcome of how one might be treated depends on many things and is unique in most/all cases.
Re:Does your company have loyalty to you? (Score:5, Insightful)
I too am a senior developer for a small UK company. For me it is most definitely not the case - our company is run more like a cooperative, with profit sharing etc. However the OP mentions that work has been outsourced; I think this says everything he needs to know about his company's loyalty towards staff (i.e. cheap employee trumps loyal employee).
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
If you leave everybody benefits. You gain a better commute, better pay and more opportunity. The old company's two junior programmers will benefit from new responsibility. The company will survive just fine without you believe it or not. If they really need you perhaps they can pay you a small retainer to consult for a few months.
Bottom line, don't ever hold yourself back.
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
That's bad advice, you never take the counter-offer. Once you've admitted to considering an offer from another company you are now branded disloyal. Your boss will make sure he has someone else who can do your job ready for when you leave and if you don't leave soon enough they'll get tired of waiting and kick you out.
It's a bad risk to take because it usually means you end up with neither job. It's better to explain to the new company that your current company is at a critical juncture and find out how much leeway you have on starting date, if they can give you an extra week or two you can offer that to your current company. But make it clear that your are doing this because you are awesome. If they offer you more money to stay it's either because they're afraid to lose you right now, or because they intentionally underpaid you previously. Eitehr way it's not good.
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
Loyalty has paid off *very* well for me. Not in the short run mind you, but when it really counted (twice).
First time:
Stayed in a not very good job, for a very good manager, just because he asked me to. Once the project I was on was done he gave me an excellent professional reference and I went on my way. FF about 8 years and I was facing being laid off in the division of the company I moved to. He found out that I was in a group that was busy imploding as fast as it possibly could and hired me into his division, no questions asked.
Couple years later he's climbed up the ladder quite a bit (as have I) and I found myself in an environment where I knew I was going to get myself into trouble (incompatible middle manager). Went to my old boss and had an "open door" meeting with him. Laid out my issue and told him that same as last time I'd finish the project I was on, but then it looked as if it was time for me to move on again. His response was to move me under a different manager, in a different job role, with a different position, just to make me happy and keep me there.
I can't help but to think that had I not stayed around way back when, and had bailed at a critical juncture, things would be much worse right now.
I think the main thing people miss, is that if you have a good relationship with your boss and upper management, while you can not count on that for more pay (never seen someone not burned on that front), you can count on them for fixing almost everything else, making the environment, and job you do, so enjoyable that pay is not important any more.*
-nB
* obviously it is important, but there is a range of pay that applies to any job, if the job is awesome and the environment is awesome, then being at the lower end or middle of that range really isn't a big deal.
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
As an IT manager ... Being forced to make a decision is not pleasant
The headliner on the list of job duties for "manager" is "making decisions". Perhaps you need to go back to technical work?
. I would much rather have the employee come to me with a business case for giving him or her a raise
The job market indicates this person is worth more by evidence of his new offer; it's up to you as a manager to make the case that you do or do not need to pay that increased amount for this person/skillset/experience level. It's not his problem that the market views his value as increased!
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed, sorta.
If you play brinksmanship with the company, you poison the relationship.
I was in a similar situation though the other offer was lot more money but a slightly worse working condition. I approached my boss, told him about it, that I was conflicted, and pointed to some problems in the company. The company was a startup and not yet flush with cash so I told them upfront I didn't expect them to match the pay, and I just wanted to make an informed decision. I got a smallish salary bump, but some organizational issues got resolved and my boss had the ammo to say "our key guy is gonna split if we don't address this". In the end the company got better and I got most of what I wanted. More money would have been nice, but the company is a much improved place to work at, I'm happier for it, and have additional trust in my boss.
The lesson I took from this is as follows: if you trust your boss, lay it out for them, including what you want. Don't play the "do this or I'll leave" card, or you may as well leave. Give them your POV and make it a discussion, not a negotiation. This hinges on you trusting your boss and being prepared to make compromises. If you aren't prepared to make compromise (which is fine), just leave. If you don't trust your boss enough to do this, just leave.
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a very different circumstance. In your cases you weren't being loyal to a company but to a person who reciprocates, which is just good networking.
Re:Bargain (Score:5, Insightful)
As an IT manager, I would be pissed if someone came to me with leverage.
Because you want your underlings to have no power at all at the bargaining table, right? You need all the power for yourself. How dare they try to balance that out a bit.
Re:I don't think your hangup is loyalty... (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree that it looks bad on your resume to have left a company that then went bust. If a company goes bust because of a single employee leaving, then they are poorly managed. If you left shortly before they went bust, that shows you have a good head on your shoulders and were able to sense that the company was heading down.