Ask Slashdot: Handing Over Personal Work Without Compensation? 848
rsmith84 writes "I'm the Senior Systems administrator for a small trade college. When I was hired on, it was strictly for L3 related tasks such as advanced server administration, Exchange design and implementation, etc. They have no in-house programmers, no help desk software, and no budget to purchase one. I'm a moderate PHP and MySQL programmer on the side and am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set. I like a challenge, and since all of my goals outlined since my hire date have been met and exceeded, I have a lot of down time. So I wrote the application. It streamlines several critical processes, allows for a central repository of FAQ, and provides end users with access to multiple systems all in one place. I've kept a detailed time log of my work and feel I should be remunerated for the work before just handing over the code. The entire source was developed on personal equipment off company hours. My question is: what should I do? If they are willing to compensate me, I will gladly hand it over. However, it's been mentioned that, if I do the project, it is all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation. The application would streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills. I'm a firm believer in not getting 'something for nothing,' especially when the skills are above my pay grade."
Career (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the diff between a job and career. People with careers invest their personal time because the reward is you get promoted for doing great work.
Been there... (Score:4, Insightful)
it is part of your job (Score:4, Insightful)
No budget? (Score:5, Insightful)
> all but guaranteed that I will see no compensation
If they didn't have the money to do it, and you were told that you wouldn't be paid for it, why would you expect to be paid for it?
Re:Career (Score:5, Insightful)
You must be a manager.
Don't work "for free" (Score:5, Insightful)
Most organizations are not deserving of free work on the part of an employee, regardless of hourly or salaried compensation. The only two times I can think of that might warrant some kind of uncompensated work would be where either a a company is in trouble and employees pulling extra effort might save their jobs, or where the extra work is likely to result in a better position in the company.
I don't see either being the case in the way you describe it. If you can't do it on the clock or at the office, don't do it.
Got another job lined up? (Score:4, Insightful)
Got another job lined up? Trade colleges know working there beats the crap out of a real job (especially the cake schedule, we worked four-day weeks) and they can get replacements all day.
I'd use the app, and not disclose shit about it. If you get laid off they can write a support contract if they need to. Heck, customize everything you can to your benefit while you are there. All users want is an absence of hassle.
Hoard knowledge, make YOUR job smoother, look busy, and remember you are in an ACADEMIC environment. Play that game and don't pretend you aren't in a trade school.
Don't hand it over unless.. (Score:4, Insightful)
How dysfunctional (Score:5, Insightful)
You have no interest in the success of your company and you would hold this project over their heads to get a short-term payoff.
Sadly, if your employer was better to their employees, they might see the benefit it working as a team to make the company succeed.
Seems to me that neither of you have each others interests at heart. A good place to work would be one where I am striving to help the company succeed and my company is sharing is that success. Sounds like you need a new job.
BTW, you have added more work to your schedule fixing bugs and adding features to your "new system". Good luck with that!
And you will NEVER be rewarded fot the effort. (Score:5, Insightful)
You had best enjoy how much it made your job easier and document what you did for use when you interview for your next job.
OH! Welcome to the club!
You will find that we meet most nights, at the bar.
Give it to them (Score:5, Insightful)
You get promotions and raises by going above and beyond and making yourself valuable to the company. If you "stick to your pay grade" then that's all you'll ever be. When I look to promote someone I specifically look for things they've done to help the company/department. I look for innovation and drive. If you took the liberty to do it, you're reward is in the good faith you generate with your superiors. That will eventually pay off big when it comes time for a raise or promotion.
A job title and description is not a contract meaning "this is what I do and nothing else." If you choose to do nothing else, you'll never be noticed.
So why did you write the application? (Score:5, Insightful)
Did you write it to get compensated? Or did you write it to help your team?
If you wrote it hoping to get paid and they say they won't pay you then put it on the shelf and forget about it.
If you wrote it to help your team ...streamline a lot of processes and take a lot of the burden off my team, freeing them up to handle what I deem to be more challenging items on their respective punch lists and a better utilization of their time and respective skills then hand it over knowing that you've done something to make your workplace a little better. Next time you have a performance review with your boss make sure it is discussed that you did this on your own time and that the staff are benefiting from it. It will only help your career to show your employers that you are willing to go a little further than expected.
But, if you are one of those people that just work 9 - 5 and walk out the door at the end of the day not thinking about or not caring about your job (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, different people have different priorities) then shelve it and forget about it.
Re:it is part of your job (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. Especially if you have "lots of downtime".
I certainly would not look well on someone that does their job "off the job" because it is not in their exact "work description" then want additional money for it. If you want to be a contractor, be a contractor. If you want a salary, then you are not a contractor.
I've kept a detailed time log of my work and feel I should be remunerated for the work before just handing over the code.
If someone on my team acted like this, I would most likely have to fire them. I wouldn't even care about the code. They could keep it. The entire psyche of "not my job description" just irks me. A salesman, not an employee.
Personal anecdote (Score:4, Insightful)
I got my job by going above and beyond, programming when I was supposed to be simply a walking reference book. It made my job faster, and more available. The more I automated, the more time I had to automate more things.
I got hired on a help desk team, 12 or so people like me who just wrote stuff and gradually became a recognized team. The team didn't set out to get recognized, just get faster. Management did not realize how important it was to automate until it was already done. Then we were indispensible, actually before I even joined the team.
But, they didn't pay to retain, and the team fell apart. We were all essentially help desk people doing real programming work, above our pay grade. Many people went for better opportunities when upper upper management had to meet stock-related goals, some involuntarily.
You can know the people are better off, no matter what you get out of it. You can know when you leave, the system you built will be virtually unmaintainable even if you document the crap out of it, because whoever tries to replace you statistically won't be a good code reader. You can know that you could have helped, but didn't because it didn't suit your philosophy.
I suggest proposing the system, with statistics on how much money will be saved, and most likely how many jobs can be eliminated as a result. If it is approved, negotiate payment and come up with the solution well under the deadline. If not, do what you feel is right.
Re:Don't work "for free" (Score:4, Insightful)
You shouldn't be too hung up on job description and title. You are being paid for your time at the office, if you can write the apps on the clock, then consider them part of your job and a demonstration of why you should be promoted when a position becomes available, or retained when layoffs come around.
Oh, and don't write anything that makes your position redundant, that's just... the mark of a non-critical thinker. If you are writing apps off the clock, don't write them for work, find some other interest in your life and write apps for that - if you don't have other interests outside of the crappy job you describe, I'd consider getting out and living a life a much higher priority than trolling /. for advice on how to get paid for writing software that nobody asked for.
My anecdotal experience (Score:5, Insightful)
About 6 months later, I had a 500 dollar bonus on my paycheck and I was bumped up a step in my pay grade. It was little, but I certainly appreciated it. At no point did I think, "I could probably double dip as a consultant here." Had they asked me to do it on my own time, things may have gone differently.
Not offering any suggestions on what to do one way or another, but that's my experience.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Two facts that are obvious to anybody (with experience):
1. The cost of maintaining the one off custom software will far exceed the cost of buying the canned software. Even assuming competent development. Risk is high.
2. The boss doesn't have budget to pay for the canned software. He won't have budget to maintain the 'solution' hacked up by the new kid.
He won't pay the kid for the software. That's a given.
The question is: Should the kid find a new job if the boss if fool enough to accept the software under any terms? I say yes, such a boss will teach the kid only bad habits.
seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
You say that it "isn't part of your job description" and that you've got tons of down time, but you developed this on your own time and equipment. That all sounds like a monumental cop-out to me. If I were your boss and I saw a posting like this, I'd probably fire you just as a matter of principle. That whole concept of not-in-my-job-description is just so much crap. Odds are very good that you did plenty of thinking about whatever this solution was during your copious down time during work hours, and in all probability, you spend plenty of work time doing things that polish the skills you used to build your solution, even if you didn't actually work on that specific solution at your desk during business hours. It'd be one thing if this was a general-purpose solution to a common problem that wasn't specifically related to your job - then, by all means, quit and productize the thing, and keep the fruits of your labour to yourself. But this sounds much more like a custom solution to a very specific local problem and you are just trying to muscle some cash out of your employer for work you've already performed that has no utility outside of your job. Imagine if every software engineer tried to bill his boss for the thoughts he had on the drive to or from work, or in the shower, or wherever. Most of us do the vast majority of our creative thinking away from our desks. Your employer didn't require you to do the work and you sure as heck aren't entitled to compensation for it. By all means, refuse to turn it over, but as an employer, if I've got an employee that has a better way to do something who refuses to do it that way because it 'isn't part of his job description,' then I won't keep that employee around for long. Just long enough to have HR deliver his severance information, basically. Fundamentally, if you've got copious down time, then you should have been spending that down time automating the task that you chose to do in your off-hours instead, no matter what your job description says. Look at it this way - in the long term, doing that will actually provide even more down time, so it is a net win for everyone.
Hey dumb ass (Score:5, Insightful)
a senior sysadmin should expect to write some in-house tools, yes.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Does the software have any applications outside your organization? If so, you may want to at least work out the details so you own the copyrights, even if your company ends up not paying you.
Job Description? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's how it works:
1) You get some job
2) You "beast" it. That is... you do what you're asked very well and you take the initiative to use the extra skills you have to wow everyone by changing everything
3) You ensure that it is known that you are responsible for your work
4a) They offer you a payrise or more responsibility and pay
4b) They don't, you stick it on your resume and you get a better job somewhere else with a beamingly positive reference
Do the right thing, make sure there are no problems of attribution and it will pay off in the end. Do not crap up your reputation by trying to strongarm more money out of them upfront. Keep a good attitude and it will pay off in the end. If I had tried to extract extra pay for going above and beyond every time I did so in my career, I can all but guarantee I would not have done as well as I have.
Do interesting stuff, be unbelievably useful. The money will follow, it always does.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
My thoughts too, but it could go either way -
"I have this stuff I wrote in my spare time, it would make everyone's life easier, wanna buy it?"
Responses are probably going to be as varied as -
I have personally seen "Sure, if the rate is reasonable and we get the code and copyrights", but the guy that wrote it was senior staff and had been with the company at least a decade. I have no idea how often the others occur, likely they're not talked about so often.
Me, I like to keep any personal coding and company work in completely separate domains, so that there's no question of ownership. I also make sure that any contract I sign does not try to claim rights over stuff I do in my spare time. I'll sign limited non-competes (i.e. promise not to release competing products during the time I'm employed, this provision to end when employment ends), but not more than that.
Re:Give it to them (Score:5, Insightful)
And in every company I've ever worked, going above and beyond resulted In absolutely nothing back. Pay rises go on nepotism and to suck ups, not to those actually doing the most or best work. The only person getting a promotion is the manager, and then you get told how to suck eggs by his replacement until he figures out you do actually know your arse from a hole in the ground.
I generally get on well with my managers, especially the ones that actually good at their job instead of just telling me how to do mine, which is about half of them.
I've long since given up believing that all that unpaid overtime I put in to keep the show running with half the manpower it actually needs actually is anything other than a mugs game. but then I'm a sucker for caring about whether I do a good job. I can't knowingly do it half arsed even when I wish I could so I could go home. Case in point; my boss texted me on xmas morning because email was down, and he wanted out fixed right then and there, despite the entire company bring on holiday for another week (private school). And that we have no on call or out of hours support requirements. He pulled my mobile number from the emergency contacts file for life or death situations. Fortunately he just ducked up his iPhone and email was fine. I know this because I checked. On xmas day while on holiday in another country with my wifes family.
My reward? A meeting to discus how we can avoid this 'gap in our defences', I.e. have us do official unpaid on call duty over xmas. When I already had to cash in one week of holiday as I never got the opportunity to use it due to the same manager booking new it purchases during school holidays which is the only time we're allowed to take our legally required minimum.
And yes, I could get another job; in a shitty economy, and what's the point when it'll just be the same there?
To the original question Asker; you did the work without being asked, when you knew there was no money for it. Your odds of getting paid for it are basically nil.
You may however be able to trade it for some extra time off holiday, or something else you want, such as time or opportunity to do skill training in an area you want to learn more. Be flexible, and if your manager is half decent, he'll at least try to chuck you a bone.
If not, you might as well cough up the code. At least it'll make your co workers life easier, and friends are all you have in the workplace, the company itself won't give a monkeys.
And lesson learned for next time. If you're going to do work for nothing because you can, at least do it with your eyes open.
Re:Career (Score:5, Insightful)
The smart ones stop working for the career and start working for the weekend.
Having a Mc Mansion with an audi in the driveway and being $690,000 in debt is simple stupidity.
I prefer to work 30 hours a week, and do what I want when it's time to stop working. I have built TWO cars completely by hand, restored 3 classic motorcycles myself and have seen far more of this country than any of the sad and lonely men I see in the corner office.
They may have climbed the corporate ladder, but I actually raised my child by spending time with her, have actually built things that make very rich guys green with envy, and have seen things the man that wastes his life in an office working for a career will never EVER see in his lifetime. My wife and I travel to europe more than any rich person I know, I have ridden a motorcycle from Endbraugh to Paris.
I have as cushy of a life as the executive. I live in a sane home that even has a real home theater (I built myself) in a sane neighborhood. My home cost $69,000 and is better built than most any home that was built for $500,000 - $700,000 today. Mine is real stone and real brick, not the fake crap that is on new construction. I drive a realistic $9,800 used 2007 honda civic as my daily driver instead of being a financial retard and wearing out a $75,000 BMW or Audi.
In my experience, only an idiot works for his "career" and a "image", a real man works for his family and doing things that make him happy. The rich clients I work for have a nanny raising their kids, and they get to see them every other sunday. They never use the home automation and high end theaters I design and install for them because they are never home and always at the office.
Working on your "career" is a very sad and lonely life, only fools chase that rabbit.
Confused write-up, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
If I read this correctly:
* you saw a place where some software could really help;
* you knew they wouldn't buy it;
* you were told they wouldn't pay you to write it; and
* it wasn't in your job description to write it (side note: seriously?)...but
* you wrote it anyway; and
* now what?
With all of this, I'm left wondering why you wrote it? You say you like a challenge, but was this the only way? You further write:
am easily capable of writing something to meet their needs, but do not believe I should be A) asked to or B) required to, as my job description and employment terms are not based upon this skill set
Well, hey there, genius - you said you weren't asked to, or required to. So, again - why'd you do it? What did you think would happen? What did you expect? Your whole story really confuses me.
Oh yes, to get back to a recommendation about what to do: I don't have one. Your attitude is petty and small-minded, and I can't give any suggestion that would fit in with that attitude. If you had some decency, you'd go to your management and show them what you'd done, maybe get some kudos, and use it to boost your resume. Taking initiative looks good. If you had some entrepreneurial inclination, you'd start a small company and market it.
But I think you'd rather just maintain a constantly surly attitude and fold your arms and huff "I'm not gonna get paid for it? Well, screw you". Squandered opportunities, dude. Sometimes you have to take a risk, you know?
Re:Career (Score:5, Insightful)
It is quite possible to work more, make 6 figures and still be frugal. Not everyone making a good wage is an idiot in a McMansion, only most of them. Some people work over 40 hours because they actually LIKE what they do. And the money follows.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a silly thing to say. All important data should be backed up. mySQL is as good as anything.
Re:Career (Score:4, Insightful)
You're the wise one, spending time with loved ones and tasting life is far more important than a career or making a ton of money, for those of you that doubt this, picture yourself on your death bed looking back over your life... what do you want to see?
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:4, Insightful)
WTF is with his entitlement mentality anyway?
I'm a firm believer in not getting 'something for nothing,' especially when the skills are above my pay grade.
Has it occurred to you that doing this project would look good on your resume? Has it occurred to you that doing something "above your pay grade" looks good when reviews come around? Has it occurred to you that doing this will increase your value to your employer thus ensuring both job security and perhaps even increased remuneration?
Go ahead and take this "I deserve it" attitude to your supervisor though. Nothing guarantees success in the business world faster than nitpicking your compensation because you can contribute something to the company that isn't part of your job description. Extra bonus points for whining about your "pay grade" during the worst economy in a generation. I wonder how many unemployed IT folks are screaming at their monitor while reading this article?
Re:Career (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm more concerned with his statements (above). Is he getting paid for this "downtime". Personally, I don't want to work with people who are only concerned with "their job" specifically. I've been a Unix system programmer/admin for 25+ years at a variety of places. I've always done whatever was needed and helped whoever I could. I may have a specific job title, but my real job is helping the my team, co-workers and company be successful.
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you insinuating that you should provide free labor because it would look good to a future employer? Fuck. That.
You *do* deserve to be paid for time spent writing something if its on your own time; you don't give it away from free unless *you* want to.
I wonder how many unemployed IT folks are screaming at their monitor while reading this article?
Only the ones who aren't any good and therefore have no mobility and aren't in demand. The rest of us? Cleaning up shop (and still making six figures in a recession).
The software is not important (Score:5, Insightful)
There was a guy just like you at my job a few years ago. He created a lousy wiki-ish software to maintain ISO-9000 procedures, on his own time, and he offered to sell it to the employer, who declined. Then he "licensed" it for free (which was a huge PITA for everybody) and left a few months later to peddle his masterpiece. Last time I checked he was fixing beepers and unlocking playstations in a shitty electronics shop.
On the other hand I know another guy who created a "suboptimal" Access horrorware to deal with complex inventory management. He not only gave it for free to the employer, but happily supported end users for a while. This was basically a POC and later a budget was allocated to create a more robust software; the guy did not have the skill set to write that one but he was identified as a SME to define requirements and provide guidance, and a year down the road he had his own team to manage the inventory project.
Your software is worth nothing, it's your experience that is valuable. My advice: give your code for free to the employer, call it a pilot, and even if this leads nowhere, it will be a good bullet point on your resume.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:5, Insightful)
You *do* deserve to be paid for time spent writing something if its on your own time; you don't give it away from free unless *you* want to.
He already gave away the time for free, regardless of whether his employer pays for anything. You might think he *deserves* to be paid for it. I think he *deserves* to be paid the agreed-upon wage to do the agreed-upon work, and if he goes ahead and develops something extra, on his own time, unasked, without telling anyone, knowing full well that the employer has no current intention of paying for a package, then he's taken a gamble, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose on a gamble. If you don't like the downside or risk, then don't make the gamble. Or hedge somehow, if you can.
In this case - if you know there's little to no chance of getting paid to do this extra project, but you go ahead and do it anyway, on your own time, and then whine that you're getting nothing, I tend to think you are getting exactly what you deserve.
Re:Career (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a paramedic, and I love my job, I mean, really love it. Unfortunately, I make crap money (Though that's somewhat alleviated by the fact that I'm not salaried and tend to work an average of about 60 hours a week.)
After taking a job as an EMT-Basic because I figured it would be a good study job, I dropped out of university in my junior year of a dual EE/ME because I realized that I liked engineering, but I loved EMS.
I had to do a great deal of soul searching over that decision, since at the peak of my career as a medic, I'll most likely be making less than I would my first year out with a EE/ME, but I went ahead and did it.
I knew that I'd made the right decision about 6 months later, when after working for 3 months, with a grand total of 5 days off, I got 2 days off in a row. The first day was great, I slept in, went to a movie, got drunk, generally had a ball. Then the second day...at about 11AM, I was bored, I wanted to go to work.
The point I'm trying to make is that while you're correct in your paradigm, there are others.
Academia vs. Industry (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps the wages or treatment of staff is particularly poor
If a trade college is similar to a university then the wages will not be great but the treatment of staff will be very good. One of the main attractions of working at a University is that it gives you more freedom to do your own things and show everyone what you really can do. Assuming it goes well you can then get hired by industry with a glowing resume which shows what you can really do or you find that you really like having the freedom and you stay on in academia - at least that's how it generally works in Canada.
However with this sort of entitlement attitude I'd suggest the OP moves into industry ASAP - part of the compensation - and expectation - of an academic environment is flexibility and freedom. If you want a 9-to-5 job with fixed tasks and concrete job descriptions then academia is not for you!
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Entitlement or exploitation? It's a fine line. Would you say the same thing if the terms were not monetary but instead based on the barter system and other goods were exchanged? I already have a military family background. I'm being practical. Why should one benefit at the other's expense without exchanging the means for the knowledge and expertise? They hired me and outlined my job description to the T. I abide by it. The fact that I have the ability to go beyond my job scope should be the merits used for salary negotiations. But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? And don't feed me any of this greater good or terrible economy crap. The only way to get through a terrible economy in through self preservation and accumulating the necessities to weather the storm.
Let me get this straight:
1. You weren't tasked with or asked to create this application
2. You went ahead and did it anyway
3. You feel you should be compensated for work done entirely on your own initiative and without any request or direction from management?
That sounds an kind of like the guy who walks up to your car at the red light, washes your windshield and then asks for money. Even if the window was dirty, no one asked the guy to wash your windshield. Now you want someone to pay you for work they didn't ask to be done that you took upon yourself to do.
I'd say you have four choices (I won't address copyright or licensing as that's not what you talk about):
1. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer if you feel the offered remuneration is appropriate
2. Ask for compensation and provide the application to your employer regardless of compensation
3. Ask for compensation and withhold the application if you feel the offered remuneration isn't appropriate
4. Don't involve your employer with this application at all and then do whatever you think appropriate insofar as selling it on the open market, open-sourcing it, etc.
Because it was not requested or required, your employer is under no obligation to purchase the application from you, nor to compensate you for your time in developing the application, even if the application provides as much value as you say.
If I was your boss and I felt the application might have merit, I'd have you pilot it and then implement it in production if it passed muster. I'd then say, "thanks very much for this great tool. Now get back to work." I'd probably (if it were within my means) try to get you a (bigger) bonus and/or some extra time off and it would definitely improve your annual review, but I'm not going to pay one of my employees contracting fees just because he took it on himself to implement a tool that benefits him and his team.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree here
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Career (Score:4, Insightful)
picture yourself on your death bed looking back over your life... what do you want to see?
well, i don't want to see about 20 years of poverty after retirement.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you've developed something useful on your own time, well outside of any contractual obligations or restrictions, then you now have a product to sell. The terms and conditions for sale or use are up to you.
But if the boss didn't contract you to write it, they're also under no obligation to purchase it. So you pitch it, and now you're over a barrel if they know it's whatever they offer or nothing. If they say "no, we don't have the money", then you're just plain out of luck. You've gambled with your time and lost, unless you can then sell it elsewhere.
Don't like that arrangement? Next time secure a contract with a well defined scope and terms for compensation before you start work.
Re:Career (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you are lacking in creative travel or creative tinkering or creative savings) . Nothing wrong with that, you just haven't been taught how to...
So here is your first instruction. spend 1 hour on Sunday clipping coupons. I bet you can find about $ 70 of useful savings every week. ( that's $ 3,640.00 per year )
buy a car jack ( 2 ton if possible ) $ 50.00, rotate tires every month. should save some money over the long term ( tire and fuel ) and you have a useful tool
buy at walmart the cheap soda if you like soda. the saving are amazing ( I drink the fake Dr. pepper which taste the same as the real )
got credit card debit over multiple cards & you've paid them on time ? call them all up and ask for a reduction in the interest rate.
Take a ride to a big Pawn shop or a swap meet or a flea market to find items you need. bought a box of tee-shirts for a 30% of what I normally pay.
I use to fly as a messenger, that does not exists anymore unless someone would like to update me, but I do shop for my air fair and look for odd flights that can be cheap.
what I enjoy spending some of my saving: fun foods like odd cheeses, buy hardcover books that I have enjoyed reading, buying plants and trying to get my roof top garden working properly.
best of luck and hope you get an opportunity to try some of my ideas.
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:5, Insightful)
The funny thing is he is even saying that he has lot of down time in work. Instead of being a total jerk jabbering about how his job description doesn't include writing software, but would still like the challenge (and did it), he could have used that down time to actually just write the software and help the company a bit instead of sitting around doing nothing.
Seriously, if I were his boss and I read this, my head would implode. He even admits that he just sits around at work doing nothing. He then says this would had improved everything a lot, but gee, this closely related task isn't in his work description! And that is even without the fact that he then goes out and writes the software, and is now thinking about asking the company if they can pay money for it on top of the salary he gets. What a total ass!
I would never hire anyone with such attitude. There are lots of sysadmins and programmers without work that have much better attitude. People who would actually care about the company and their work. If you want to be paid only for your job description, go do paid consultation work. Right, then you couldn't just sit around doing nothing at work time and get paid salary.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you're barking up the wrong tree here
i think you answered the question perfectly, but seemed to give the OP some meaning that he didn't have.
clearly he wants to know how to avoid getting rolled by his boss, and maximise his profits..
basically. tell your boss you've found a solution for an ongoing problem to your job, however its outside of your scope to impliment. you could ask for either an amendment to your contract (and a payrise) for the extra responsibility OR to sell the solution outright to your boss. but make sure he(/she) understands that there is no free lunches. basically talk to your boss as if someone else is selling the software and you're just found a good "deal",
On the whole I agree. However, he can't "get rolled by his boss" because his boss never asked him to perform this task. If the application actually had value and the OP offered it up as one more thing he's done to exceed expectations, and his boss was feeling generous (assuming there were funds to be generous with -- which the OP himself said there were not), he might get a bonus or even a promotion. That said, the organization is under no obligation to purchase *anything*, nor are they necessarily bound to pay any additional salary. As a general rule, exempt employees (which it sounds like the OP is) are paid the same regardless of whether that work is in the scope of their job description or how many hours they work.
As for "maximising his profits," this guy is an *employee*. If one of my employees tried (to use your term) to "roll" me by trying to sell me an application that is clearly directly related to his day-to-day responsibilities, regardless of the location or timing of the software development, I would start the process of replacing that employee. Why? Because the whole scenario just screams that this guy is only interested in squeezing whatever he thinks he can out of the organization. That makes him untrustworthy..
I'm guessing (based on the 's' in maximise) that you aren't an American. In the US, holding your employer over a barrel like that is usually frowned upon (I'm guessing that barring any laws to the contrary where you are, it's the same there) and, as a rule, the only compensation you can expect is your final paycheck and an escort to the building exit..
Have YOU talked to anyone or seen anything? (Score:4, Insightful)
If it's small, simple and well documented the exact opposite is the case. I've seen examples in every workplace I've been in since about 1987.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:4, Insightful)
Speaking of job security - he has just supplied an application to do necessary tasks for the "company", which no one else is likely to be able to support.
We have a guy at work who modifies machines, without documenting anything. We have quarter million dollar machines which have been rewired, and the prints and drawings are no longer reliable, because he has spliced wires, replaced wires, installed his own wires, installed relays, blah blah blah. Job security? My "coworker" and rsmith are probably blood brothers, or spiritual twins, or something exotic like that.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you be chance a recent college graduate? You seem to have a naive, idealistic view of the world typically reserved for recent college graduates. Though to be fair, a lot of Slashdotters of all ages do as well.
Let me help you out. Truth does not matter. Should does not matter. All that matters is reality.
For what it's worth, I agree with you completely. That's exactly how things should work, and in the case of salaried employees the employer should not care if the work is getting done in forty hours or fourteen. However, we do not live in a world where the employer and the employee have equal power or even equal respect, and that has been exacerbated even further by a terrible economy. If you operate in the world of how things should go, reality is going to give you a harsh reality check. If you are in a position to lose this job to make a stand for how things should work, by all means. It doesn't sound that way, however.
And you don't think that handing your employer something awesome and not demanding to be paid for it would constitute a means of self-preservation?
As others have pointed out, there are a number of reasons to can you already -- and I'm ignoring the part where you come off as a self-entitled twat. If you have "lots of down time" there is a definite interest in re-evaluating whether or not you're needed for the time you do spend working. I won't bring up the question of what you do when you're not doing real work or why you feel that twiddling your thumbs for those hours is not only proper, but that you should then come to me with this tool you made sure to write on your own time just to get more cash out of me when you know it's not there. For that matter, if you did come to me and even if I did buy the software, it would just make you more expendable. There is always a risk of automating yourself right out of a job, and you're apparently not doing that much work to begin with. Any fraction may tip the scales, and that has nothing to do with whether or not the work you are completing is done well.
And then, of course, we come to reality. You come to me, demand I pay you. I say I can't, which you already knew--or should have, anyway. You then...what? Tell me to fuck myself and stick the software in a drawer? You seem very self-confident with your grasp on things, so let me ask you this: Can you think of a single way to get yourself fired faster? Oh, maybe not right away. Maybe not even directly because of it. But you just walked into your bosses office with a sign around your neck saying that you are the most expendable person next time they need to fire somebody. Even in a good economy, few employers would put up with that level of self-centeredness. We're not in a good economy. We're in an economy where there would be a line outside your bosses door with candidates to replace you before you had cleaned out your desk -- candidates who would happily write this software, give it to the company and consider themselves lucky to have had the opportunity. It's sad that being a "team player" has come to mean that you do everything your bosses want and they do nothing in return for you, but that is the reality in the many--and probably most--cases.
You're not getting money for this. That ship not only sailed, it was never in your port to begin with. Trying is only likely to get you screwed even harder. Realistically you have two choices at this point: One, pretend you never wasted your time writing this software. Do whatever you want with it, so long as your bosses never find out it exists. Shred it, GPL it, see if it meets the needs of some other organizations. Or two, walk into y
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:3, Insightful)
Do the work you can do not the work you are paid to do and you will be able to get a better job else where.
You're talking like a Union crane driver, who wont do anything except drive cranes. If there is nothing for him to lift he will sleep in his cab rather then do productive work.
I would like to finish by saying that reputation and references are everything in the real world. Pay Rises, Promotions and Future jobs depend on your willingness to go above and beyond the call of duty in your current position. You know what they say, first you get the responsibility, then the title, then the money.
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:3, Insightful)
and do that Google idea ( spend 20% on something else other than the in house project)
The guy who posted TFQ would just spend his 20% sitting around; he's not getting paid to work, but to "do something else". After that he would go home, create something his employer didn't ask for, then demand to get paid extra for it.
Re:Have you talked to anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
"But as raises have been completely shut down for all non C-level people, what's the point of going beyond the scope? "
So, knowing this, why go beyond that scope in the first place? It sounds to me that you wrote a program that would make your own life easier. Having done so, you expect them to pay for it, even though writing it was outside of your job description and even though it was neither asked nor demanded.
And I'm with several of the others. If I had an employee who was always careful never anything more than necessary, or who would never do anything not spelled out on his job description, then that employee would soon be looking for another job. He's the one that's exploiting the situation, and the employer.
A good employer-employee relationship is symbiotic, not adversarial.
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who worked for years as a contract developer I have to agree.
It's not like this was a side project with application outside of the company. Even if it was he'd need approval before implementing it in house if he wanted to get paid for it. It sounds like this software was developed specifically for this specific company rather than being a side project (truly on the side) that happens to be something that he could sell to his company. That he was dumb enough to apply his personal time and resources to company work is his problem, not theirs.
If it's not in your job description and you don't think you're paid to do something then don't do it. This is a little bit like mowing your neighbor's lawn without his knowledge or consent and then asking him to pay you for it after the fact. It's also a little bit like that Reader's Digest scam where they'd send you a book you didn't order and then send you a bill a month later.
Here is how to do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
This NEVER happens. It may be days, months, or weeks later but they come back. Sometimes its a stray bug I missed. More often, the client/user has come up with some new feature request that they just cannot live without and they must have.
In any event, the iron clad rule of development is: you write it in a week, you support it for eternity. So with that in mind, give them your code. If you wrote anything worthwhile, they will come back with more requests and then you can negotiate for raises and such. If you do this, don't go for the jugular in your demands. Negotiate small projects and raises. Again, over time, as they see your value you can move into more responsibilities and pay.
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:4, Insightful)
There are lots of sysadmins and programmers without work that have much better attitude. People who would actually care about the company and their work.
While admirable, the problem with this line of thought is that the company does not care about you. Not a bit. If it benefited the company to let you go, you would be gone in a heartbeat without a thought to your loyalty.
Develop an income stream outwith work (Score:5, Insightful)
Good points.
I would add that it can be worth developing an income stream which is unrelated to your primary work, a "hobby" income if you want. Something you enjoy doing and which can help when the TSHTF and your primary work vanishes. Better if you diversify; as unrelated to work sectors as possible but this is often not possible.
If you are lucky it'll take off and you get to retire after a couple of hectic years.
Re:Hey dumb ass (Score:2, Insightful)
You need to remember that life is a job interview. Everything you do reflects on you as a person and as an employee. While you may not receive financial compensation for your work, down the road that work may be your foot in the door to a better opportunity with compensation and benefits that may outweigh the effort that was given away for the original work.