Ask Slashdot: How Is Online Engineering Coursework Viewed By Employers? 201
New submitter KA.7210 writes "I am an employed mechanical engineer, having worked with the same company since graduation from college 5 years ago. I am looking to increase my credentials by taking more engineering courses, potentially towards a certificate or a full master's degree. Going to school full time is not an option, and there is only one engineering school near me that offers a program that resembles what I wish to study, and also has the courses at night. Therefore, I have begun to look at online options, and it appears there are many legitimate, recognizable schools offering advanced courses in my area of interest. My question to Slashdot readers out there is: how do employers view degrees/advanced credentials obtained online, when compared to the more typical in-person education? Does anyone have specific experience with this situation? The eventual degree itself will have no indication that it was obtained online, but simple inference will show that it was not likely I maintained my employment on the east coast while attending school in-person on the west coast. I wish to invest my time wisely, and hope that some readers out there have experience with this issue!"
Ask your boss (Score:5, Interesting)
Over here good educational institutions are certified and registered.
I know from first hand experience my boss is willing to pick up the tab for further education providing he sees the advantage of it and you stay for another two years.
It is common a new employer would pay off any remaining expenses for the course when you change job before the end of the payback period.
In short, ask your own boss what he thinks of a particular course.
Re: (Score:2)
[W]hen you ask your boss if online engineering coursework is good for getting a new job, they would tell you "you're fired".
Maybe in Corporate America, where you have to slave 60 hours a week just to keep your job, and where you're expected to feel guilty for wanting to have a social life. In Europe (at least developing software in the Netherlands), this is simply not true. The reason: employers realise that a high turnover costs a huge amount of money and worse, delays projects. The latter costs time to market, which can be even more expensive and in extreme cases can kill the company.
To be fair, some employers do cover furthering education, but again, usually it cannot come at a cost to your already full workload.
This is true. It is also the reason why you
Re: (Score:2)
I have never heard of someone being fired for asking to take outside classes and be reembursed for them. I have heard of people not telling the company the finished a degree or not telling HR. This was in the late 80's and early 90's
Some major US companies will look at the completion of a masters degree or doctorate as not as an example of a promoteable event but as a method to restart you at the entry level pay. Any experince earned does not count for pay calculations. A made up example to make this cl
Re: (Score:3)
Wow. With a resume like that, I sure as hell wouldn't hire you without some pretty good convincing.
Looks to me like you've never held down a job more than a year.
Re: (Score:3)
Firstly, many of those positions say "permanent", not "fixed term contract", and last no time at all.
And secondly, if I don't like your resume, I don't like your resume. As long as you have no reason to suspect I am discriminating on race, age, disability or gender then I can hire who the hell I like, sorry if that bothers you.
Re:Ask your boss (Score:5, Interesting)
There have been times at my job where my employer basically says "oh well" when it comes to OT. Like when I have family plans. If I work the hours, nobody even thanks me. It gets tiring. It doesn't happen often, but it always occurs at the absolute worst time.
Here in the USA, it is cheaper to marginalize or plain old fire employees and then replace them with cheap imported labor. I'm sure you are aware about outsourcing being the new fad here to reduce payroll expenses so the CEO can get a few more million in his bonus. We also hire immigrant or work-visa employees who are willing to work for around 2/3 the salary of an American born and bred here.
It may sound cocky or stereotypical, but many of those "imported" workers are used to worse conditions back home. In much of the world, families live together. Children move out when they marry, not when they reach the legal age of adulthood. Children who do move out get roommates, and live in smaller apartments. Here in the U.S.A., we are taught that everyone needs tons of space. Buy a house. A big car. Lots of land. No spouse or children? You still need 4 bedrooms and an SUV. Too expensive? Fuck it, just go into perpetual debt that will only end when you die. It is our way of life, our culture. Immigrant workers bring their (better) work ethic and (better) lifestyle with them, and employers take advantage of it.
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like you're a socialist. Any good capitalist worker would realize that their sacrifices are necessary for capital growth.
Re: (Score:2)
Please stop spreading this. It is just not true. Yes, plenty of employers hire foreigners for less money than they would pay a domestic worker, but in almost all cases those are illegal, undocumented workers. A work visa requires a review and certification by the department of labor to establish what the appropriate wages are in the place of employment. The process requires a
Re: (Score:2)
Depends on the specific circumstances under which immigrant workers are hired. I have seen it first-hand. I admit not to be being familiar with the immigration laws since I am a natural born citizen, but I have seen non-citizens make substantially less salary just because the employer can get away with it.
Re: (Score:2)
You'll appreciate I'll continue doing my work, including in the USofA, on my European contract.
*WHOOSH!* (Score:1)
lololol, you Europeans are so naive.
Or maybe, in some cases, their employers just aren't idiots prone to knee-jerk reactions like the one in your example.
The post was intended as satire.
Then **you're** naive! (Score:4, Interesting)
I've personally been *demoted* for asking about funding continuous education!
My manager was OK with it, he even submitted the request to HR, who then submitted it to his boss for approval. His boss had an issue with it, and came to me and said, "If you think you need additional education, you're not as sharp as we need you to be." and then, since Texas is an at-will state (as in, they can fire you, at will, for any reason any time), I was summarily dismissed.
I'm sure this happens everywhere. I read your post as Insightful, not Funny. Your WHOOOSH was just disappointing.
Re: (Score:2)
I've personally been *demoted* for asking about funding continuous education!
My manager was OK with it, he even submitted the request to HR, who then submitted it to his boss for approval. His boss had an issue with it, and came to me and said, "If you think you need additional education, you're not as sharp as we need you to be." and then, since Texas is an at-will state (as in, they can fire you, at will, for any reason any time), I was summarily dismissed.
I'm sure this happens everywhere. I read your post as Insightful, not Funny. Your WHOOOSH was just disappointing.
Ah yes, sorry I fucked up in my explanation. The "lololol, you Europeans are so naive." part was the only part intended as funny satire.
The rest of it was sad and disappointing satire. You know, the kind where you tell the truth, like it's a joke, but it's not actually funny, because it's true, and everyone feels sadder for having realized it?
Sorry to hear about your situation. :( I honestly really hate the fuck out of the USA sometimes. So much injustice for employees.
Re:Then **you're** naive! (Score:5, Interesting)
That's what we get for our bastardized free market economy. Us little people don't have much of a voice in running the corporations, so the people at the top who hold all the cards get to make all the decisions. Being selfish, those decisions benefit the rich, while us working class are being squeezed tight.
The other day I was driving around my suburb and realized that it is visibly going to hell. People who used to have good jobs are moving out because they don't have jobs anymore. The ghetto element is moving in. People who still have good jobs are moving out because of ghetto creep. Malls are closing due to reduced business and increased crime. Businesses move out because of worker safety.
If businesses respected their employees more, none of this would be happening. Wages would be up. People would be employed. The middle class wouldn't be squeezed -- in fact it would be growing as the lower class moves up. This country is destined for some ugly times if this doesn't change: the recent recession is nothing compared to what I believe will happen next.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
People who used to have good jobs are moving out because they don't have jobs anymore.
I'm just amazed that people like you exist. "There aren't any jobs!" "Obviously, the solution is to make conditions worse for companies"
You want the jobs to come back? Get the government out of small businesses, and eliminate SarBox so the small business owners can dream. It costs you nothing!
Re: (Score:2)
I agree -- we need less government, not more. Regulations hurt small businesses, and decades of that crap is well-documented and understood.
At this rate, all that will be left in this country in 20 years will be Wal-Mart and McDonald's.
Re: (Score:2)
I agree -- we need less government, not more. Regulations hurt small businesses, and decades of that crap is well-documented and understood.
WTF, exactly are you basing this on? I hear a certain political element spewing this all the time, but I have yet to hear a concrete provable example of how its actually hurting. I've seen a fair amount of regulation, but invariably the small cost of jumping through some hoop is seriously outweighed by the benefit to society. Not having every house on your block burn do
Re:Then **you're** naive! (Score:5, Insightful)
Dumber than a pile of rocks. Somehow, the removal of all government regulation and control will lead to a paradise?
You realize we had that here in the United States at one point? In the romanticized Old West, John Wayne's character - the irascible lawman - won out over the evil gunslinger. In actuality, whoever had the most money (firepower) did whatever he wanted. Somewhat later, the now-idolized robber barons (Carnegie, Rockefeller) ensured that anyone who didn't play along with their goals starved, while those that did play along were effective slaves.
The reason your great-aunt didn't die of starvation: government (pretty common 100 years ago). The reason your cousin isn't in debtor's prison: government (again, pretty common not that long ago). The reason that the average lifespan has increased from ~50 to ~76 in the past 100 years: government.
If you want to live in a libertarian paradise, move to Somalia.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You guys should date. ;)
And have a snowchild
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Then **you're** naive! (Score:4, Interesting)
That stinks, and I'm sorry for you. It sounds like you were in the wrong company, or hit the wrong manager, or something else was going on.
My first company (New Zealand) strongly, strongly, strongly encouraged me to get certified. They gave me a raise to anyone who completed a CNE or an MCSE.
My current company paid for my first master's degree, 100%. The department I was in at that time had more people doing 100% company funded graduate degrees than were not. Now I'm doing a second master's degree. Yep, they're paying 100% of that too. Same with the guy who sits next to me - Master's degree in Software Engineering. And one of the developers, who's finishing her MBA.
Some companies believe in the value of higher education. Some don't. I'm lucky to be in one that does.
By the way, we are all doing our degrees at physical campuses. But I know several people who've gone the University of Phoenix route.
Re: (Score:3)
I've personally been *demoted* for asking about funding continuous education!
My manager was OK with it, he even submitted the request to HR, who then submitted it to his boss for approval. His boss had an issue with it, and came to me and said, "If you think you need additional education, you're not as sharp as we need you to be." and then, since Texas is an at-will state (as in, they can fire you, at will, for any reason any time), I was summarily dismissed.
I'm sure this happens everywhere. I read your post as Insightful, not Funny. Your WHOOOSH was just disappointing.
I'm very sorry to hear your experience, and I live and work in Texas...
Texas has a continuous education requirement for the licensed professional engineer. So if you want to keep your license, you need to take certain amount of course/training each year. If your employer doesn't recognize the importance of that, then they are not aware of the state requirement for engineers as well as not understand the requirement to retain talent. In either case just be glad you don't work for that company anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
This is a pretty unique story - most companies that I've worked for over the last 30 years had an established policy for funding continuing education. In other words it's normally encouraged in my experience.
As for on-line classes - the one place I know people accept readily is the University of Phoenix MBA program.
Re: (Score:2)
since Texas is an at-will state (as in, they can fire you, at will, for any reason any time),
All states in the union are at-will. You are probably mixing up right-to-work with at-will where some states are right-to-work and others are not - right-to-work means union membership can not be made a mandatory requirement of working for a company.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Right, and this is why Europe's economy is just decimating the US economy?
Re: (Score:2)
Right, and this is why Europe's economy is just decimating the US economy?
There is an economy left to decimate in the US? The current problems in Europe are that people found out some states here have an Economy about as bad as the US and are now busy fixing that (with doubtful success, admittedly).
Re: (Score:2)
Obviously, satire wasn't a course where you went to college.
I didn't say it was GOOD satire... I mean, I whipped it up in like five seconds. So, of course it sucked really bad... just like your joke.
Re: (Score:2)
"So, of course it sucked really bad... just like your joke."
Now THAT is funny.
Re: (Score:2)
degrees only matter for your first job (Score:2)
Exactly. What is your goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Are you taking the additional classes to learn additional material because YOU want to?
Then it does not matter how the school is viewed. You're in it for the material.
2. Are you taking the additional classes as a "stepping stone" to an additional degree / classes that you want to take?
Again, you're in it for the material so don't worry.
3. Are you looking for something to build up your resume?
Then look for what schools have the best reputations and work around their requirements. You're in it for the school name in that case.
But don't confuse any of those items. If it HAPPENS that your choice will fit more than one category, great. But if not, then keep your focus on your primary goal.
And to reiterate the parent post, once you have your first job your work history matters far, Far, FAR more than what courses you took (are taking) or what your GPA was (is).
And since you've already stated that you have your first engineering job ...
Re: (Score:3)
"degree."
Why the quotes? They're all pieces of paper.
Only as valuable as the issuing institution (Score:3)
"degree."
Why the quotes? They're all pieces of paper.
The degree is only as valuable as the accreditation and reputation of the issuing institution.
Re: (Score:3)
no, potential employers determine the value
Re: (Score:2)
A degree is only as good as the person holding it has made it.
Re: (Score:3)
While I agree with you on principle, it must be said that some prestige from the issuing authority does help you get a foot in the door so that you can show off what you have done with it.
Re: (Score:2)
Anything that helps stuff more keywords into your resume counts, doesn't matter where it comes from, because that's all they look at nowadays.
Online is worth much less (Score:5, Insightful)
At my last employer, where I was involved in the technical half of resume screening and candidate evaluations, online courses weren't worth very much in the early stages. The problem is that the quality of the programs varies so widely that it's best for the screener to just ignore them. Yes, there are diamonds in the rough, but you don't have enough time to go do the research, so you mentally block that part out and continue on. It's not particularly fair, but when you have 500 resumes to work through in a day, you have to come up with a fast system.
Now, if you make it into the later rounds and it comes down to you versus someone who hasn't demonstrated that drive to better themselves and their career? Yeah, I'd take the time to go look up the online program, any graduation statistics it published, etc.
Mod parent up. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
... then I would value a degree of the same name obtained online as about a 2, partially because of introp's observation that the quality is all over the place and is an unknown; and partially, I admit, due to personal unfamiliarity.
Also I think it's worth mentioning that "online" is a tainted word when it comes to schooling. (Much like it is with prescriptions.) A more mainstream term known to most generations is "by correspondence". Most universities use "distance education" and offer various combinations of accessibility for students. It's not dumbed down material, and it certainly doesn't cost less. It's specialised for a non-lecture, non-classroom format.
If you say "I got my degree online", you're asking for trouble. Say, "I got
Re: (Score:1)
Managers like you are the best. I love you guys! (Score:4, Funny)
I really appreciate the approach that you guys take when making hiring decisions. Managers like you have been nothing but beneficial for me.
You guys, having no degree or formal education yourselves, are completely intimidated by anyone with a degree. You fear hiring such people, because even a new graduate will quickly show how little you truly know. Sure, you'll spew out nonsense about people with degrees being "unmotivated" or "having money to waste" or some gibberish like that. But in reality it's because they are better than you, and you know it, but you're so damn scared to admit this.
So when it comes to building your team, you hire PHP "programmers" and Ruby "software developers" with no formal training of any sort. They'll create huge messes rife with performance problems, security flaws, poor design, and end-user inefficiency. Usually, the startup quickly goes under. In the rare case when the startup succeeds, it'll quickly become apparent that you and your team are causing more problems than you're eliminating.
Sensible upper management will then can you and your team, and bring in a consultant like me and my team, usually at a premium. Given that we are professionals with real education (yes, that means at least a bachelor's degree) and training, we know what we're doing. We clean up all the problems that you have created. Lucky for us, by the time we're done doing that, you, or one of the other anti-education/anti-competence managers like you has gone and created a new mess for us at some other company.
Your incompetence is great for me and my colleagues. We make far more money fixing your mistakes than we would if we just did the work in the first place.
also CS does not = IT skills (Score:2)
And there are tech school with IT skills that CS does not offer also there should be more trades like classes. Now how does BA, MA, PHD CS help you be a better IT admin / help desk / desktop guy? Vs doing real work?
Re: (Score:2)
I have worked with people who have no deg
Re: (Score:3)
I taught myself to program in high school, mostly by reading the PDP-8 Assembly Language Handbook over and over until I figured out what the hell they were talking about. The only CS or programming class I ever took was "Introduction to Computer Science" my first year in college, where the language used was, believe it or not, Algol 60. I hated it mostly because I was much more interested in working on the retargetable assembler/disassembler system I had desi
Re:Mod parent up. (Score:5, Insightful)
Correction: you grew up a douche.
Seriously, someone who summarily dismisses someone for going to college is worse than all the cocks who dismiss people for not going to college.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
He's talking about mechanical engineering, not coding. There's a huge difference. You can always teach yourself new languages, and by the very nature of coding, there is lots online that can help you become efficient.
But when it comes to mechanical, chemical, and other types of engineering, you need to take the courses. Sure you can buy some books and read them, but there is a large set of knowledge that builds on itself that has to be learned to get to where you can be productive.
This kind of relates to
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
The only reasons to get a Ph.D. are to teach college, or to do research. Specifically, if you want grants to pay for said research, most organizations will look for the Ph.D. after your name as proof that you can succeed at the task and the research money will be well-spent.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Online is worth much less (Score:4, Informative)
I assume you are referring to online-only institutions, but highly rated schools have online engineering programs, too.
In many cases, there is no way to know if the degree was obtained online or not. For example, if you get a MS Electrical Engineering from Stanford by taking classes online, the degree says "Stanford", not "Stanford online" or somesuch.
Re: (Score:2)
The course itself might list as "web course online nuclear power plant operations" or the like. But as universities if we offer a degree programme, it carries the 'full weight of a regular course' so to speak. If that wasn't the case very quickly online courses would have to disappear from universities, because we cannot be offering things which aren't seen as legitimate to our reputations and our ultimate customer base which is the general public.
Now, if you're in the US and want to go to a online degree
Not how you get it that matters (Score:2)
Online engineering courses aren't going to mean squat. But if you have a degree from an accredited university, it will count in the minds of employers no matter how you obtained it.
Been there done that (Score:3)
Been there, done that.
how do employers view degrees/advanced credentials obtained online, when compared to the more typical in-person education? Does anyone have specific experience with this situation? The eventual degree itself will have no indication that it was obtained online, but simple inference will show that it was not likely I maintained my employment on the east coast while attending school in-person on the west coast
No one cares. If you get a job, it'll be from contacts and portfolio, more or less. HR won't care as long as the checkbox is checked off and they get a transcript.
I went to a "regional" U with multiple sub-campuses (campii?). I attended only online classes, although there was a sub-campus maybe only a half hour drive away. No, I did not commute 2 hours each way every day to the main campus. Maybe they'll get the same idea about your school?
Re:Been there done that (Score:5, Interesting)
HR won't care as long as the checkbox is checked off and they get a transcript.
But the hiring manager will count "PhD in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Phoenix" at about the same level as "GED" even if HR just ticks the box for "advanced technical degree." I had a colleague get a BS from UoP at the same time I got a Masters in night school from a real university. We compared classes a lot, and I was disappointed by his classes, as I would have liked to improve some of my basic skills, DBA and programming are two things I skipped in becoming a networking guru. But the classes didn't teach much, they were more self-justifying (work for work's sake to prove you did something, rather than actually improving the person taking them).
And yes, an online degree from a "real" university will be treated the same as the paper one in most cases, and nobody will care if you took in-person classes from UoP (if they have any, I have no idea), it'll still be UoP.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
My advice is to attend one class and do well. Then you can truthfully say "you went to College". Then if they ask what your degree was in, say, "I majored in Computer Engineering.", which in my case is a 100% valid statement (I did study for 3 years).
99% of the time, they *assume* I have a degree. I'll never (and have never) lied about it, because it just doesnt matter much at all, really.
Maybe 3 out of 100 interviews, I've been asked, "Did you receive a degree?" and I just say "No, in 2003, I realized I co
Re: (Score:2)
What I'm really getting out of this is that you were turned down 97 out of 100 times in interviews because you lacked an actual degree. Is that right?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In my capacity as someone with a real degree who occasionally reviews resumes, I blackball people who try stunts like this. The engineering profession has no use for this kind of unethical person.
old college system sucks for on going education (Score:3)
So there needs to be a better way for "experienced" people to pick up new skills in faster way then going back to college for 2-4 years and some times even having to retake gen edu's + filler classes. No there should be stuff like other trades where you can go to a trade school and drop into classes that will get you the newer skills.
Also there lack of courses at night in most colleges. Now is that engineering school a tech / trade school? so that is also a issues as HR takes a poor view of some tech schools even when they are more on point and have better class times then a older college. But on the other side I have heard on jobs paying there workers to take University of Phoenix classes. So this is a HR issue and a issues of trying to fit the old college system into today's tech word.
Also some colleges make you buy meal plans and some time room and board now why should some who has there own place and is working have to pay for all of that as well?
Now continuing education should not just be BA, MA, PHD, MBA, POST DOC it should be drop in classes with not makeing you retake gen edu's or have to take a load of filler classes.
Re:old college system sucks for on going education (Score:4, Insightful)
Spot on.
My brother and I are 18 months apart. I took on IT and he as a carpenter.
At 40, he has over taken me.
I *was* on 200k+ for 10 years but couldn't handle the pressure. He runs his own biz, take his own jobs and just grinds along. Cruises. A small biz and he kills me.
He has no degree, no BA/MA, no MBA, no PHD. I have most, plus appallingly good experience in the industry, but cant get a job...... He can spend 20k and get the best tools in the biz.
He says he can't keep up. Can't get enough people. Turns down jobs.
Makes me wonder why the hell I've done what I have. 40, I'm over the hill. 40, he has just started!
varies (Score:2)
There's going to be a range of responses. Some will completely discount online learning, possibly even round-filing your resume for taking such a stupid course of action. Others will see a self-improvement motivated self-starter and salivate at the thought of hiring you.
I suggest you aim to work for the second kind.
Professional Engineer stamp is the way to go. (Score:5, Informative)
Any sort of extra education is great, I encourage everyone to get smarter, but getting your PE stamp would do the best for your career, that's something that NO employer can disregard.
I'm not suggesting that it's "one or the other", I'm suggesting that you use any online or offline education to get a professional credential that's recognized by states or professional societies. For the ME, it's getting your PE stamp. Like a lawyer passing the bar or a doctor passing their boards, the PE is something that no employer can ignore.
At one equipment manufacturer that I worked for, only a couple of the engineers had their PE, and they were usually moved up to "senior engineer" or "vice-president of engineering" pretty quickly, the rest of us were kept down and encouraged not to get too uppity...
Re:Professional Engineer stamp is the way to go. (Score:4, Insightful)
Disclaimer: For mechanical engineers, I personally think that getting a PE often is a good move.
However since this is Slashdot, I would argue that for computer engineers this is not always true, or at least the easiest thing to do in the United States.
While completing college, I took and passed the Engineering-In-Training state exam for Electrical Engineering. I then worked for several years with various employers, some of which had PE's above or adjacent to me in the hierarchy; others of which did not.
The electrical engineering exam for PEs seems to be bending-over backwards to reverse the small percentage of licensed EE's relative to other disciplines. When I looked into this a year ago it was possible to take a purely computer-oriented exam without a lot of the power, electromagnetics, and other topics. The state certifying board where I currently live seemed more than willing to consider justification statements proving that work I did while not under the supervision of a PE could be credited as work experience.
At the time I also was a member the local NSPE/state society, attending meetings with lots of other PEs, and being flooded with offers of legal and civil engineer training courses.
But I never could get PE certification before my EIT expired. The catch was I could not find enough PEs that would be willing to sign of on me as a personal reference, largely because most felt uncomfortable with their knowledge about what I had done.
And since there are so many exclusions to when you can use the term "Engineer" without a PE in most states, I ran out of PEs to ask.
For Mechanical Engineers getting your PE often can be a good thing. But for Electrical Engineers and Computer Engineers especially it can be a chicken & egg problem.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm a software/electrical engineer with a PE, and I took the PE exam for computer engineering. I had the same problem as you, but I was able to find three PE references. Surely you can find three references.
In Texas, and probably in other states, you can have one reference who is not familiar with your work but can attest to your character. Plus, if people you want to use as references are not familiar with your work, take the opportunity to meet with them a few times a month for a few months to talk abo
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I wish there weren't so many douchebags in the world that the three people who replied to me could sense the sarcasm.
Don't waste your time learning more of the same (Score:2)
My experience (which may have worked only for me mind you) is that employers don't give a toss about how much you know about stuff, but how flexible, adaptable and quick to learn you are.
In the 20-so years I've worked, I've held 4 positions in fields that have absolutely nothing in common. I worked as an employee, I worked self-employed, and I have my small business on the side.
Whenever I meet a potential employer, I am proud to say that I can learn anything quickly and become proficient on my own, and now
Masters might be good, MBA possibly a better idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Getting a Masters in the same field as a Bachelors may not be worth it **unless** you work or hope to work in the area you do your research. Personally I have no regrets getting a MS Comp Sci but my employer paid for everything except parking and we were located literally next door to the university.
Are you targeting a specific employer? For example if you wanted to work for the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) is Pasadena, California it may be very advantageous to work on a Masters at the neighboring university, Cal Poly Pomona. Your department may have professors affiliated or consulting with JPL, JPL interns or otherwise employs students from the university, etc.
As an undergraduate I had the conversation about getting a Masters with a fellow Comp Sci major. I was undecided. He commented an MBA would be far more useful. I laughed and couldn't imagine doing that. Many years later I did go to business school, again next door to work (the university is well ranked) and with employer support. After many years on the job focusing exclusively on engineering and technical issues I really enjoyed learning new and different thing, understanding other parts of the organization, understanding their perspective and concerns so that I could communicate more effectively with them
I'd recommend looking into an MBA. Its probably not at all what one expects and it probably is more valuable to scientists and engineers than more degrees in their existing fields. As you become more senior you need to interact, understand and effectively communicate with others outside of science and engineering. I think an MBA helps in this regard.
In the US, business doesn't care. (Score:3)
Business (HR specifically) doesn't give a shit about your degree. They care about a) that you have the checkbox, b) who you worked for previously and are not lying about it, and c) whether it looks like you aren't a total fuckup who will cost them. It's about risk avoidance.
The actual team you interview with (if it wasn't an HR drone) cares that you look like you know your shit and can carry your weight.
Engineering and especially computer degrees are such a total crapshoot on the skills you get in a candidate, that they don't know how to weigh your degree. Even degrees from badass schools sometimes come with folks who still can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. Besides, most of that senior level theory stuff in the degree won't help you much in a real world job until the late stages of your career, and will piss off your peers who don't have the same background, and definitely piss off management, who barely understands what a linked list is.
The quality of in person versus remote will depend on your learning style, and whether you actually would make use of those in-person office hours anyway.
Re: (Score:1)
but now all the CS jobs at good companies are requiring a masters or phd... fuck
Re: (Score:2)
I defy you to find any corporate-level management outside of Google and Facebook who can pull off fizz-buzz, let alone explain what a linked list is. Not even "barely".
but what can you do? (Score:2)
I looked at four resumes in the last week, and I didn't look at education for any of them. I can't even remember if they listed it. But one of them had a lot of job experience doin
Plus and minus (Score:1)
In my mind, the fact that you were able to maintain employment as an engineer AND work towards a degree at the same time more than outweighs the downside of an online education.
What are the downsides?
* Some lab-work and project-work simply cannot be done online.
* While it's critical to know how to collaborate totally online and over the phone, it's also critical to collaborate in a face-to-face situation. I want evidence any college graduate can do both well.
Since you are already working in the field, that
It depends (Score:2)
Stupid Companies: Will hold it against you because it challenges the obsolete Ivory Tower mindset. You don't want to work for that place anyway.
Smart Companies: Will value it/you because not only do you already have a degree, and additionally you pushed yourself to get yet another one, even though most people just rest on their laurels at that point.
Just stay out of the mind trap where you think that you should be paid more JUST because you have an additional degree. Using the knowledge acquired from that a
Speaking only for my company (Score:1)
Depends on what you want. (Score:2)
If you want to study subject X because you are curious about X and want to learn more about X, then it will be valuable to you.
If you want another piece of paper to impress people who care about such things...may or may not be valuable.
I saw someone taking an online course... (Score:2, Informative)
On-line, other education and courses - advise (Score:5, Insightful)
Howdy.
I'm a VP of technology for several companies, and have been in a position to hire software, network, and system engineers since at least 1997. In all honesty, neither I, nor any of the people who've reported to me, ever paid much attention about where someone went to school, what their actual degree was, or whether they had earned some honor -- as long as the guy could deliver. From certs to prestigious schools, we never really bothered. Eventually I found out that I had a couple of MIT grads and at least one Stanford kid. I also had a pile of people whose degrees were awarded by foreign universities (including my own) and really... nobody really cares.
If you have the skills and you have the work experience, then you should be fine.
Right now I sit on the tech board for a couple of companies in Europe and the US, and I'm driving the technology at a very large social network with dev operations in the UK and Russia. I do notice that Europeans pay more attention to "schooling" and "degrees" and "titles" than US companies do, but not by much. My former employers and clients include some of the largest companies in Silicon Valley, rest of the US, Europe, Japan, and Mexico. The only occasions when I had to produce some kind of official proof of education were:
* When getting my US labor certification (1991... long time ago...), and when getting my Russian labor certification (last year) -- bureaucrats just love the fsck-ng paperwork
* When applying for a US federal job -- even then, they clarified that all they care about is whether I completed the degree or whether it was accredited, the date, and some accreditation equivalence since my degrees are from foreign institutions
Pro Tip: see if your employer will pitch in for part or whole course. Tech departments have educational budgets ranging from a couple of hundred dollars/year for books per employee, to full scholarships. I've auth'd books, on-line courses, conferences, PIM, and university courses for my peeps many times in the past. Check that out with your supervisor or with HR. A lot of people don't realize the option might be there -- and, if others in your group aren't taking advantage of it, your manager may be amiable to extend your budget a bit more (since money she doesn't spend is money she may have to cut next year).
So -- get your education wherever you can as long as they are legit, kick some butt, take names, and good luck in your career advancement!
Cheers!
Re: (Score:2)
What really matters is "can you deliver the needed results?" Make that happen however you can.
Re:On-line, other education and courses - advise (Score:5, Informative)
While this is insightful, to say the least, I doubt if it can be generalised for 'engineering'. I doubt this very much.
Whenever I was involved in employing electrical engineers, I'd surely look very closely at the formal qualification. If I were in civil engineering, I would use a microscope before I allowed anyone to 'deliver' - as you put it - at building a bridge for my company, for example.
And the submitter states he is a mechanical engineer.
Re: (Score:2)
I agree with the spirit of what you say, perhaps disagree a bit on the details.
When hiring a civil or mechanical engineer I'd certainly put the guy through the paces (I did that when I was in charge of building industrial robots, early 2000s) to ensure that he or she doesn't kill someone by swinging a fingerboard to far, too fast, or too close to where people might be, and so on. Or cause an explosion. Or... you get the idea.
You wouldn't let a civil or mechanical junior engineer design a bridge or industr
From my experience... (Score:4, Informative)
I can only talk from what I have seen and done, but in the UK we have a online university called the Open university which is generally well regarded. That is not to say that all employers will provide the same respect as say a MSc from Oxford or Cambridge(Actually a side point, a MSc from Oxford or Cambridge is generally worthless since they will award you one for just staying alive after your BSc), but a lot of managers I know got their MBA's from the Open University so they know its value.
Generally most qualifications especially technical ones really show nothing about once you left university Any attempt to continue your education and extend your skills and knowledge should be valued by your present and future employer. If not you are working for the wrong company.
Re: (Score:2)
The ou is extremely well regarded. In computer science research for example they are considered at least as equals with traditional brick and mortar institutions. ...and no, I have no affiliation with them :)
It depends on what you mean by "online" (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been working towards my masters of science in computer science degree since 2007 (one class at a time takes forever). I started taking classes remotely at a remote television site at my employer. I later left that employer and got a job somewhere that didn't have access to those remote television sites, so I started taking the classes online. Since I started, I'm now at my third company, and all three have been more than willing to pay for my courses. In fact, that's probably the most telling point for whether anyone is going to take your courses seriously: is your company willing to pay for the classes. My advice is only take classes from a public or private university with a real physical campus, and only universities you would consider attending in person if you lived nearby.
Now, having taken courses remotely for several years, let me forewarn you about online learning:
Now going online also puts you in the driver's seat when it comes to choosing your institution. You get to pick from many more universities than are likely to be proximate to where you live. You can watch lectures multiple times, rewind to the part where the prof started speaking gibberish and watch it until you understand what the heck he's talking about. You can also choose a university where the courses are taught by professors and not TAs. I've had all of my classes taught by the professor. If you choose to pursue a degree either in person or online, good luck!
Re: (Score:2)
I'm at the point in my career (five years in technology at a large investment bank) where I kind of need to be getting another degree to move on and up. The problem is that I messed up my undergrad degree from a very good university to such a degree that I can't see any responsible university worth its salt letting me into its online masters program.
Is there any way to "rehab" your educational credentials so that you can get into a masters program?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, I graduated. Actually, the resume looks pretty awesome...until you start asking questions. That's when you start noticing that sickly-sweet smell of something "off" just beneath the surface, out of sight.
These work references...how does one go about getting them? Would they be managers? Sympathetic co-workers?
Distance learning (via Internet) masters here (Score:2)
Although I do my academic work in my personal life, rather than my employed life, so far, it seems to be well received by my employer's senior management (FTSE 100 company)— a couple regularly ask me for the papers I have written, and ask questions which indicate that they have at least skimmed the contents. They have been very supportive indeed, even to the extent of helping me revise my role, to enable me to work four days a week, so I can spend a day doing my own academic work.
That being said, I
Depends (Score:2)
Great! You can start as soon as your H1B paperwork is processed.
American Society of Mechanical Engineers (Score:2)
Unless you are teaching or consulting... (Score:3)
...the name of the school on the diploma doesn't really matter for technical positions. It's much more about the contacts you can make from the interaction with other students at the school or what contacts the instructors have because they also do consulting work on the side.
Actually, I say screw the master's degree in Engineering. If you want to get somewhere, get an MBA. It will be completely useless piece of paper, but it's how you show employers that an Engineer can also be a Manager.
Re: (Score:2)
No. Large or academically motivated tech employers strongly prefer degrees from bigger name schools. There is no comparing the employment prospects of someone from MIT vs some low brow state school. Huge difference, fair or not.
Engineering master's are essential for advancement to technical project management. If the degree follows a few years of commercial experience, they're worth more on the floor than a PhD, since the latter targets research and not production.
An MBA who lacks engineering chops is u
You assume a lot... (Score:2)
Go for it, regardless. (Score:2)
I spent five calendar years taking online courses for an MS in a technology field, because I was unwilling to sacrifice time at work for in-person classes. My team at work - colleagues and supervisory staff - respected the discipline required to attend and successfully complete online courses (4.0), and my salary bump after the degree was granted was significant.
As long as t
It Depends... (Score:2)
If Management is all pretentious pricks from Ivy league schools, then nothing but an Ivy league school has any value. Therefore Online Engineering courses have negative value to them, maybe even some "icky" factor as well.
If the place you work at requires a BA or BS degree for the receptionist position, They will see ZERO value in any online learning, or any education in general that did not have a high dollar amount attached to it.
Unless they look into course codes... (Score:2)
Unless they look into the course codes for your transcript, how are the employers even going to know whether a course offered by an accredited school was held in a "traditional" setting or online? Why would an employer care so long as it's a certified program of study with proper exams and coursework?