Ask Slashdot: Overhauling an Amusement Park's Multi-Zone Audio Player? 120
mcmadman writes "The multi-zone audio player I'm working with uses an almost decade old card/software combo that is prone to crashes and other anomalies. I would like to know if there are open source (read 'free') or other alternatives that would allow multiple simultaneous playlists played through the myriad of audio interfaces out there. The line outs are then plugged into a CobraNet matrix, which handles the distribution of the music/sound to their respective areas. I'm looking at eight channels minimum, timed playlist start/stops, and triggered announcements. So far the only software and hardware I've found are proprietary broadcasting solutions which tend to be a bit heavy on the wallet or meant for home use."
Multiple outs? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Multiple outs? (Score:5, Funny)
You had me at "I have no idea what I am talking about".
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Funny enough, that's what I use in my cubicle.
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Or sox, since you want it to work reliably, not to be easy to fiddle with. GUIs are not needed here.
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Yes, but where is he going to find a motherboard that supports the 128GB needed to run 8 instances of Amarok?
Oh, and some grumbling about 8 PCI sound cards, though I guess USB ones would work fine.
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Even one Amarok will bring most computers to their knees.
8 is crazy!
possible solution (Score:1)
it might be possible to use rivendellaudio.org to achieve that, simply hook up the outputs from an audio interface to the matrix mixer..
Proprietary is good in this instance (Score:5, Informative)
Bite the bullet and buy a device intended for this use, the Medialon Audio Server. It outputs cobranet directly, is easily integrated into control systems and supports elegant triggering of all sorts. Plays back from SSD drives.
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Instead of having the client spend a little more up front for something that already exists and works, I suspect mcmadman wants to kludge together a bunch of code that was designed for something entirely different, and charge for support. (Which is the GNU model for developers who want to make money using free software.) He should be able to milk this project for a year or two, or at least until management gets a clue. Have fun!
QLab? (Score:5, Informative)
I haven't used it myself, but I've heard nothing but good things about QLab [figure53.com], which is a free download for MacOS/X. You might want to have a look at that.
You might also have a look at Cricket [cricketsound.com], which is commercial software but not too expensive.
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I was going to recommend QLab myself. I use it for live theater and it is excellent. The free download only outputs 2 channels (but is otherwise fully functional for audio). It isn't that expensive to get the paid version that does essentially unlimited channels. It has MIDI integration for triggers and a variety of other features.
I haven't found anything free that does what it does.
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No. He's probably going to need paging stations and zones. What about echo cancellation boards? Possibly voip integration. What about facility-wide page ducking? Remote sources and destinations over CobraNet. What about interfacing with the (increasingly mandatory) voice evac system? What's going to interface with the wall panels and other misc controls?
This is a job for a real, actual DAP, just like every other amusement facility, conference space, etc. in the entire world. They're purpose-built to
make it easy on yourself? (Score:1)
If you have eight channels... it sounds like at least a semi-serious setup. But if you are using Cobra net, you'll definitely be putting time into troubleshooting and maintaining that kind of a beast. Why not just buy some good new fashioned Airport Express devices to stick into each room, and broadcast the audio through there, maintaining it through iTunes? It would save the value of your time... which you could then for other stuff.
Otherwise, get a Linux box, and stick some PulseAudio on there -- http:// [freedesktop.org]
Re:make it easy on yourself? (Score:5, Informative)
He's not trying to outfit a house. He's trying to outfit an entire amusement park.
The scale is slightly different.
Re:make it easy on yourself? (Score:5, Funny)
I got the impression that the CobraNet end was fine and operational, but the head end was buggy. Once the audio hits the line out, the job is finished. He needs multiple audio feeds which can be overridden with alternate audio (?) at regular intervals (park tours are beginning at the visitors center), and an option to override with alternate audio, either pre-recorded (boat to the mainland leaves the dock at 1900 hours) or real-time (emergency everybody-run-for-your-life-the-T-Rex-is-loose), on all or a selectable number of channels simultaneously.
Sounds like a real programming job!
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Go watch the original Jurassic Park again.
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I got the impression that the CobraNet end was fine and operational, but the head end was buggy. Once the audio hits the line out, the job is finished. He needs multiple audio feeds which can be overridden with alternate audio (?) at regular intervals (park tours are beginning at the visitors center), and an option to override with alternate audio, either pre-recorded (boat to the mainland leaves the dock at 1900 hours) or real-time (emergency everybody-run-for-your-life-the-T-Rex-is-loose), on all or a selectable number of channels simultaneously.
Sounds like a real programming job!
You nailed it. The live 'emergency' paging is actually done in cobranet so only pre-recorded messages are required to play on trigger.
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I know you were trying to be a little funny, it doesn't sound like a real programming job, unless you consider configuring cron to be "programming."
Instead, it sounds like a job for an Ashly Protea, or a Soundweb, or some other dedicated DSP hardware with simple digital IO (Peavey and QSC also come to mind) and decent configurability.
And, since it's already running over CobraNet, chances are very good indeed that an appropriate DSP is already in place, and therefore free.
So, for this project (as described b
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Proffesional AV Gear (Score:5, Informative)
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Your missing reliability.
For something like this, you probably don't want to mess around. Jack is great when it works.. but it's not designed to run continuously without a hitch for months on end.
Hate to say it, but proprietary works here. Something this scale, you want stuff made by companies who specialize (and whos reputation rides on) equiptment that you can stick on a wall/rack and ignore for years. Worship solid state.. pay attention to compatibility lists.. google for " " in the same query.. etc.
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* google for "<product a> <product b>"
My god.. I know it's my fault.. and there is a preview.. but a simple "hey dumbass, you've got a tag there that's not a valid html tag" warning would be kinda nice and easy to do. They filter out what tags you can use _anyway_. How about throwing that info down to us!
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and *you're
.. bad day for me :(
Pay money. period. (Score:2)
When it comes to professional show control you really do get what you pay for. this is an integral part of your park, and it will be used by bozos. find a professional show control system and buy it. it'll cost a few thousand, but it will be far less likely to break if someone presses the wrong button.
Decisions, Decisions, Decisions... (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, I've never done this with FOSS... That being said, I'm 100% certain it can be done..
You need to accept a couple of things when planning to do this with FOSS:
Remote management can be done, but will require someone who understands the way you set it up
You will probably be custom scripting when your playlists start (cron?)
Updates will require manual playlist modification (goes back to understanding how you set it up)
For an amusement park, I think this is a bad idea... Not sure how big of an IT/Tech savvy staff this location has, but while they're looking to save a few dollars today, are they considering business continuity if you leave or if something happens to this custom system? are they planning to have regular backups done? are they planning for future expansion? etc...
My personal advice would be to avoid broadcast software (Way overpriced for this).... What would be more reasonable is digital signage software... it's designed to do this with audio and video, but you don't have to use the video portions (of course, consider that a future expansion option)... If you want to stick with linux based, I know ParkMedia has a decent setup... If you're willing to consider other (windows) options check into CoolSign.... Those are just 2 that I've used for similar setups, but there are tons of options in that field, that do what you want to do, with easy user interfaces for changing/moving stuff around, and the ability to remote manage them... Also they tend to work in a client server setup, so you back up the server regularly and if a client machine fails you just replace it.
Just my 2 cents, hope it helps.
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Come on now, I'm 100% sure it could be done too. At worst all you need to do is hire some programmers to write the software you need and then release it as FOSS. :-P
As for investing tips, I'd recommend stocks, and maybe some bonds. Politicians can be even more profitable in the long term, but tend to be expensive and getting your money's worth generally requires that you have considerable resources and a plan in place to properly leverage your assets.
Thank you, thank you. I'm here all *GRHKK*...
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So... can you build a 5 story building? sure... have you personally done it by yourself? doubtful.... Having first hand knowledge of something, and knowing it can be done are not the same thing.. you're a complete idiot if you believe that you need to have done something to know it can be done. Like I said, stop trolling and offer some useful input.
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No problem, just wanted to throw it in as an idea... I can say I've personally set up Digital Signage software as a method of mass deploying music to 100's of locations (hotel chain). It worked great, was fairly simple to maintain. But it can absolutely be it's own animal. Any way, I wish you the best of luck on the project, sorry I couldn't offer a solution that matched your needs exactly.
here you go! 99 bucks and does it all!!!! (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.multizoneaudioplayer.com/
Multi Zone Audio Player is not just another media player. It's a music control center for a whole facility or building with many rooms, halls, corridors or another zones. It' a reply for a need in a real application rather than simply a new idea. It's designed to work in professional and commercial environment, not just to entertain one person behind computer. Multi Room Audio Player is designed to play multiple sound tracks into many audio cards (or zones) simultaneously
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and no Paging override, like he mentioned was needed.
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Paging override can be done simply enough at the output end with amplifiers that have an input override. This is not limited to particularly expensive amplifiers -- the one I use every day [amazon.com] has this ability and cost less than $100. Certainly they're going to want more than 50W/channel (except perhaps where the speakers are more or less right next to the people), but the point is that this provision exists in a lot of off-the-shelf equipment and its primary purpose is to provide a paging override in commercia
idea.. (Score:2)
I agree, it sounds like you'd want something a bit more professional than random cobbled together solutions.
That said, machines like the Raspberry Pi (or other small ARM based machines you might actually be able to acquire in quantity) might be one answer.
At least, the ability to output a sound file from an SD card and have an editable playlist is a pretty low entry requirement..
Just buy a dozen extras and swap them out if they die ..
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Just buy a dozen extras and swap them out if they die ..
That's really why buying something professional is probably the better option here. Professional audio control software and components are designed to be installed and ignored for years. Reliability is king with this stuff... and the companies who make it know it. Stick with tested products unless you've got a lot of flexibility/extra time and a boss/customer willing to accept a bunch of downtime while you iron out your hack/solution.
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Oh I know .. it's hard to imagine a theme park that doesn't use commercial gear .. but that isn't the requirement laid out in askslashdot.
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My grandparents used to ask me to help them with their (Windows) computer all the time. I got tired of all the support calls so I loaded Linux on their home computer. They haven't called me for support since.
Is that because they can no longer use their computer because you replaced their operating system? Or is it because last time they called you for help you did something so horrible that they learned never to call you for help again? Or is it because Linux is so magical that they no longer need help?
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What are these 8 channels? (Score:2)
What are these 8 channels? How closely do they need to be synced up, a tiny fraction of a phase difference of a 44 KHz sine wave like professional audio music mixing, or just synced up close enough that park closing end of day announcements happen "around the same time, plus or minus a couple minutes" on every speaker? The first thing I thought of is 8 NTP time synced machines each running exactly one speaker plus (speaker-1) so when one crashes you cross connect speaker 6 to the Left output of computer 7
Re:What are these 8 channels? (Score:4, Interesting)
RAIN = Redundant Array of Ipod Nanos (or Inexpensive Nanos, since you'll be running off AC power you can buy the cheap ones from ebay with dead batteries instead of buy new)
Buy more than 8 nanos... you need 8 just for background music for each zone. Other nanos do nothing but squirt out a single announcement one time when play is hit. Feed into big ole mixer. All done.
Reprogramming by the end user is not much of a challenge assuming there exists at least one apple fanboy carnie. Another question that depends on your contract, are you trying to encourage substantial "long term support" or discourage substantial "long term support". A bunch of ipod nanos is not going to require much IT guy time, which is either a huge bonus or a huge epic fail, depending on your financial compensation plan.
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I can't speak for the submitter, but having been to an amusement park, I'd assume the 8 channels will be for 8 sections of the park, coming out of crappy speakers (outdoors bolted to buildings or in fake rocks).
Probably going to want them all to be able to have separate music playing, but also the ability to do park wide events and make announcements randomly throughout the day with appropriate fading.
The iPod system might be simple, but I don't think it'll cut it.
Multiple audio director? (Score:2)
I'd like to be able to direct multiple audio streams to several devices. Such technology might be useful to the original poster as well.
Is there a way to have a half-dozen audio output devices (USB audio devices can be cheap) and configure to which output device the sound from various applications should go? I've only seen interfaces for configuring where to direct all sound from a computer. Background music could go to one device, TV audio to the TV which is displaying the TV stream, system alerts to
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Look into jackd.
Something to note with using multiple USB audio devices.. you run outa bandwidth. Expect to need to add a few USB interface cards.
My current setup is kinda fun:
I have:
- a "main" PCIe sound card
- my internal sound card
- a USB guitar interface
- and an auxilary USB sound interface
I use jackd to manage the "main" card and the two usb interfaces.
The internal sound card is alsa only.
I have connected the line out of the internal sound card to line in of the "main" sound card.. this allows me to get
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And in the good old fashioned open source sense you shared links to all your documentation..... and your control panel..... oh wait. :/
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Wouldn't mind sharing it, but the control panel is so specialized it would be absolutely useless to anyone else.
liquidsoap (Score:2)
Give it a look. It ties into shoutcast and can do things on a periodic basis.
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Honest answer.. I think this is the kinda career you stumble into.
I've worked with some high end audio stuff (and cobranet) as part of another project. Never saught it out.. wouldn't even know how to.. and probably not enough work in the field to "go into it". Just something that comes up and if you happen to be around .. you get sucked into it for a bit.
Make your own. (Score:2)
1 linux box with 8 sound cards = 8 separate mp3 playback systems. a bit of PHP to make a web page to control it all and you are done. In fact there are tons of command line or service based mp3 player apps out there for linux that can run multiple instances.
Because you are not going to find anything that is cheap and ready to go. You have to either spend the money, and yes the amusement park has the money to spend on it, contrary to what the managers tell you. Or you spend a couple months rolling it y
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Pro Gear, there is a reason it is used. (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't forget liability when the s$#! hits the fan and a lost child or evacuation announcement has to be made and the PA override fails. Rolling your own sounds penny wise pound foolish.
With Linux.... (Score:1)
For a Linux solution, I'd use PureData for the audio and triggering, and a M-audio Delta1010 for the 8 outputs.
It will require learning about PureData, but it's a graphical modular, so not that hard. Also, it can run 'headless' and be remote controlled over the internet.
Will the amusement park let people in for free? (Score:3, Interesting)
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If you think that anyone is going to willingly own up to liability when the system fails (and even the pro-grade stuff can do that...) I've got some nice oceanside property on the middle of the Florida coast to sell you.
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Why be amused? This is exactly what Slashdot has been advocating all these years - "don't go proprietary, don't be a slave to the man, roll your own, go F/OSS".
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The best bet would probably be to try to convince whomever is in charge of the money that it is a safety issue and that they should ju
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Exactly correct. I'm trying to switch my life over to FOSS as much as possible, but trying to cobble something together is a bad idea. If your business relies on it, it MUST be robust. The easy way to check is, "How much would the business lose if it failed?" and "What are the odds of the COTS system designed for this task failing?" and "What are the odds of my homebrew system failing?" If the answers are A>cost(B) and C>>B, your answer is pretty obvious. Same goes for A>>cost(B) and C
Show Control Software (Score:1)
What you are looking at is show control software.
Here is a free one that will do what you are looking for, assuming you have enough audio out channels in Windows.
https://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au/software/multiplay/index.php
Two parts to your problem (Score:2)
You have two parts to your problem. Playing the actual audio files, and controlling when they will be played. There are many, many FOSS solutions for getting audio out of a PC with multitrack cards. Where things get messy is the control interfaces. Its going to be hard to find an interface that will do what you want for your price point. On the other hand, there are plenty of inexpensive (
Check out Richmond Sound Design [richmondsounddesign.com]'s offerings. They have a fairly robust audio and show control engine that can h
Use Jack Audio Connection Toolkit (Score:1)
Show control systems (Score:1)
You should be looking at show control systems. I would suggest SoundMan server [richmondsounddesign.com]. Interface to CobraNet can be achieved with card [audioscience.com] from AudioScience. A nice bundle [richmondsounddesign.com] of the two is sold by Richmond Sound Design
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So apparently, asking for advice from your peers is not a good thing to do any more?
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I'll have one of whatever this guy had.