Ask Slashdot: How To Shop For a Laptop? 732
jakooistra writes "My sister recently asked me for a laptop recommendation. I said, 'Sure, what are techie brothers for,' and diligently started my search for her perfect laptop. Two days later, I feel like I've aged two years. Every laptop vendor seems to want to sell a dozen different, poorly-differentiated models, with no real way of finding out what is customizable without following each model to its own customization page. And there are so many vendors! How am I, as a consumer, supposed to find what I need? Is there a website, hiding somewhere I just can't find, that tracks all the multivariate versions and upgrade choices in an easily searchable database?"
jakooistra adds a few criteria, in case you have specific laptop suggestions: "It needs a good CPU, but we almost don't care about the GPU (HD 3000 graphics are acceptable). A model that doesn't get very hot would be nice. We'd like an SSD and an internal optical drive. A 15"-17" screen at 1366x768 or higher would be ideal. Budget is around $1,500, but could go up to $2,000 if it's really worth it."
Business only! (Score:4, Informative)
Do not buy a consumer laptop, make sure you shop around in the Business/Small Business areas of leading manufacturers (HP, Lenovo, Dell).
768p screen is usually bad (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Business only! (Score:5, Informative)
I'm actually referencing a slashdot comment from another story. I've gone mad. Oh well.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2861513&cid=40052379 [slashdot.org]
Buy a Macbook Pro, even for Windows/Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Honestly, for $1500 the Macbook Pro or MBA will suit you very well, even if you don't intend to run OS X. The machines are well built and come with a decent warranty and will last for a long time. They also have pretty high resale value.
If you want to run Windows or Linux then dual booting is a snap (you can blow away the OS X partition completely if you like).
If you do go this route though, I advise that you wait until after Apple's WWDC keynote on June 11th - the strong likelihood is that the 2012 versions of the Macbook Pro and Macbook Air will be announced, so even if you want a current 2011 one, if you wait you can either get a new one for the same price, or a 2011 for a discount.
Re:Step 2: Walk into a store (Score:5, Informative)
Fuckery like that is so few stores sell laptops/electronics anymore.
Re:13" MacBook Air (Score:3, Informative)
Doesn't have the internal optical drive, but its coming in under budget so they probably wouldn't mind buying an external. Don't know about the screen, though. It's the resolution of a 15", but its physically 13". It is cool, it has an SSD, the performance is great, and its a fabulous machine. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.
Re:Get a Mac (Score:5, Informative)
No matter what you get max out the RAM to whatever the system Max is everytging else willlast her five years. But software always chews up more ram than it should
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
Don't buy a Dell (Score:2, Informative)
Don't buy a Dell, Dude; just don't.
I was never happy with the performance of any Dell laptop I had, either personally, or work provided.
I had a thinkpad with essentially identical hardware as my personal dell: same memory, GFX, CPU, screen rez, I think the HD on the Dell even speced faster. But the actual usage difference between the two was like night and day; so just don't buy a Dell.
WAIT!! new Macbook is due out soon! (Score:5, Informative)
If you decide on Mac, it's probably worth waiting a few weeks - there will be a new MacBook Pro out soon. (The old model is already getting discounted; mid-June to early July expected ship date). It should be lighter and will have the new version of the OS (Mountain Lion) is expected to be released at the same time. OTOH the new model is rumored to not have an optical drive. (Which isn't really a practical drawback in my opinion. The extra battery space will be more useful. Get an external backup drive for extra storage instead.)
Re:Everybody is somewhat right. (Score:4, Informative)
The only problem I have with this is the statement that "Intel graphics downright stink." For gaming? Mostly. For everything else in the world? Intel graphics are more than enough. The HD3000 that came with SandyBridge (and the new IvyBridge GPU... HD4000?) is good enough to play Diablo 3 pretty well, and definitely good enough for any general desktop work.
Re:WAIT!! new Macbook is due out soon! (Score:5, Informative)
More specifics: 15-inch to be top model, with a 2560 x 1600 retina display. (old model was 1440 by 900) Performance will be nearly 20% higher than the old model, with a 2.7GHz 4-core Ivy Bridge processor. See the Geekbench [geekbench.ca] entry for benchmarks and components. No Ethernet jack, the new model is too thin but it will have USB 3.0, and a converter dongle to Ethernet is available. Nvidia graphics chip is likely. The higher-res screen has an extra $92 parts cost which will likely be passed on, plus profit.
Re:mac (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, pretty much this. I'm pleased to see how few of the Mac postings are being trolled or trolling themselves.
Steve Jobs nixed a metric butt-load of models across all lines when he came back for this reason. The performas and quadras and centris models were all so close to each other. Then you had the same problem with the laptops.
13" macbook pro unless she's going to be doing video editing or heavy-duty rendering/number-crunching.
Reports? word processing, web browsing, email?
You're done.
Yeah it costs more, but I'll put money down that it will last longer (ie-she will be happier keeping it) than any "windows" laptop.
And yes, as stated here, there's no problem running windows * on it. Just put an external mouse on it or learn to right click from a particular corner of the trackpad.
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
A couple of years ago I got my mom a Macbook with an AppleCare warranty. (Total cost about $1,000) She is extremely computer illiterate, i.e. copying and pasting links via IM is an advanced topic for her. The machine has behaved well, it hasn't 'rotted' like Windows likes to. The DVD rom failed at some point. She took it to the Apple store and they fixed it right up.
I paid more than I would have for a Windows laptop and I really do not regret it. I've had to do very little tech support for her and Apple has taken care of the rest.
All in all, I'm satisfied, my mother is too.
Re:mac (Score:3, Informative)
Mac has done well is avoiding the exact problem the OP describes
That's a typical misconception. Apple puts together a very pretty package and basically dictates what you will run....
The problem that the OP was describing, the problem that Apple does not have, is the weird fragmentation of the product line. If you go to Dell's website, for example, you might find 10 different models of 15" laptops, and it won't be very clear what the difference is between models. As the OP says:
Every laptop vendor seems to want to sell a dozen different, poorly-differentiated models, with no real way of finding out what is customizable without following each model to its own customization page.
Apple indeed does not have this problem. They have exactly one model of 15" laptop, and there are only a few things you can do to customize. What you can and cannot customize is pretty clear. So when you go to Apple's site to shop for a laptop, it's less confusing.
Now that doesn't necessarily mean that Apple is making better products, but that wasn't MankyD's claim. The claim was that Apple has avoided the problem that the OP was having.
Re:mac (Score:2, Informative)
Problem with mac is when you want to run windows, you have that annoying single button trackpad. Granted, using an external mouse fixes that problem, sometimes you just want to carry the laptop and nothing else.
Re:Just go to store.apple.com (Score:4, Informative)
You should also understand that manufacturers *want* to confuse you. They want it to be unclear what the difference is between different models. they want it to be difficult to comparison shop. They want to offer a super-cheap model so that the people who will simply buy the cheapest thing they can will have something to buy, but they don't want you to know what's wrong with their cheapo laptop. They want to offer a super expensive laptop, but they don't want you to know that there's a cheaper laptop available that will still do everything that you want. Instead they want you to buy something more expensive than what you need for fear that you're missing something.
Essentially, they don't want you to be too informed, because an informed consumer doesn't buy crap that they don't want or need.
Microcenter is a good place to compare and buy. (Score:5, Informative)
If you are lucky enough to have one of these [microcenter.com]very cool stores near you they are a great place to shop and buy tech. The prices are good, and for a brick and mortar operation they are sometimes awesome -- and the staff is usually informed. They also sell online. But a lot of stuff is in-store only. I have to drive for an hour to get to mine, but it is worth it. You could take your sister with you.
I go into consumer coma in the store near me (Rockville MD). I imagine it is like being in an online operation's warehouse. I just bought components for an Ivy Bridge desktop build. They beat Newegg on the prices of the main components, MoBo and CPU, but Newegg was cheaper for the smaller boards. Cables etc were also reasonable at Microcenter (Unlike Best Buy where the prices of cables and cords are usurious). Laptop selection was also good, but I wasn't buying.
As for comparison tips. I look at likely products with lots of reviews to take advantage of the hive mind. Then the percentage of good to bad reviews for a given product. Then I read a few good and a few bad. Sometimes a bad review of an otherwise good product will expose a deal killer for me. This is not the end all be all of a buying decision, but not all reviews are astroturfed.
Last thing about a laptop buy. Teach your sis to take care of it. Don't run it on a pillow. Don't flop it on a table like a text book. Or slam it shut like a car door. Put it in its case to travel. And follow good practice with the battery (even Lions need some thought.) And wipe it down from time to time. Silicon has a soul and likes to be kept clean.
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
I would have to second the recommendation for Lenovo. The place I'm working used to be exclusively a Lenovo shop and I was very impressed with the engineering of the boxes. They originally gave me a very old Lenovo desktop that had been around the block a few too many times and was under-configured. The optical drive no longer worked. When the IT guy came to replace the CD and add more memory I couldn't believe how quickly he finished. Seriously, it couldn't have taken him more than 60 seconds to open the box, add the memory, pop out the old CD and pop in the new one.
That got me looking seriously at Lenovo. Shortly afterward I bought a Thinkpad W700 laptop that has seen near continual use for almost three years now. Last year I bought a Thinkpad X-series laptop so I had something a little easier to travel with than the behemoth W700. The W700 will soon be replaced with a W530. Nothing really wrong with it, but it's three years old and I'm dying to get one of those new Ivy Bridge i7 machines.
The Thinkpads aren't sexy. They're no-nonsense, well-engineered tools to get a job done. And equivalently equipped they cost a helluva lot less than a Mac.
You are the one sporting misconceptions (Score:5, Informative)
Apple puts together a very pretty package and basically dictates what you will run, how you will run it, what you can do with it, and where you can do it.
You can run anything you like on any Macbook. And as other responders have noted it DOES solve the "too many models" problem, there is a limited selection of base models. It's basically, do you want an air or not and how much memory (RAM and storage) with reasonable defaults so you cannot go wrong simply ordering default configurations.
You will still have software problems.
Here's the key thing. Yes, you will have software problems. But who will solve them? If you are helping a friend buy a PC it's YOU who are solving them, that's who.
If you help someone buy a Mac you can simply say "try the Apple store Genius Bar first". Chances are they can help, they generally are pretty competent and pretty technical.
You still have viruses.
Actually no. There's one virus, one, that was from a Java installation, and an OS update already closed the hole. And you would have had to go through a chain of trouble to activate it... not a virus at all in fact.
But even ignoring the technical definition the truth is that unlike a PC, generally you can let a non-technical user go for years with a Mac and be pretty sure they will not have a virus.
You still have software problems with upgrades.
Actually that is REALLY rare, and again - Apple Store, not you. I have not had upgrade problems in years with any Mac software updates.
People still need to search some forum from time-to-time to figure out how to fix some strange new issue.
Or have someone help them for free, at an Apple Store. Are you starting to get what makes a Mac such a great idea for non-technical users? How is a non-technical person supposed to search forums for "odd problems" anyway? They cannot.
Ever try and build something from Ports only to have it *not* friggin work when you upgrade?
Come on man, that's not something the original poster is going to find a problem. If you are compiling UNIX utilities yes you may have some hiccups, but even then you can usually just recompile!
Apple has gone to great lengths to make the use experienced top-notch, but it still has it's problems just like Windows
That is the biggest misconception. I still have to help people with modern (Windows 7) pc's from time to time. Macs do NOT have problems anywhere close to what non-technical windows users have every day.
To even think about buying a non-technical user a Windows box and all the inherent baggage that comes with it is simply cruel to my mind - and it's a cruelty that as I said will be punishing you as well as the recipient.
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
This is the standard claim that is thrown against Apple. It's not the glowing bitten Apple you're buying with that extra dough. What you are getting is a lot more things:
* Robust case that works the exact same way also 3 years after active use and possible multiple falls. The screen still closes tightly and soundlessly. I've had my MacBook Pro fall somehow and dent one edge near the CD drive and I've never noticed it. A comparable blow to cause aluminum to dent like this would have shattered a plastic laptop.
* Ease of use. And that's something most people forget to price really. If your life turns around Linux kernels and command line and you don't have lawn to mow or family to spend quality time with, then you might not understand how much that is worth. Software management is hassle free (drag and drop for 90% of stuff, App Store for the rest that keeps and does all the updates for you).
* Easy support from Apple as already outlined in many posts that makes sure any issue that pops up for the ordinary user is solved and their experience is a great one. Forget here the geeks that squeak when the latest nightly doesn't build from ports or what not. Noone cares about that really as it affects a negligible amount of people in the real world (albeit quite a lot of people on slashdot).
* The speed... Forget the need to compare drive spin speeds and CPU MHz and what not. What really matters is the speed at which your computer operates when you do stuff. And while Mac's are usually "underpowered" in comparison to many PC's it's due to perfectly clear reasons and lack of need for anything higher. You don't gain much by slamming the highest end CPU in there and then being unable to sustain it for 8h as well as the heating that you have to take care of. What really matters is that the macs with OS X combination is really snappy in most situations. If you go for an Air that is all SSD with passive cooling you get nice speed with no noise what so ever.
* The trackpad. I mean seriously that's one major thing that either has to be seriously patented out or I cannot fathom why others don't use it yet. The huge trackpad is very nice to the feel under the finger and the multi touch gestures are something you grow into so tightly that when you have to use a non-mac laptop for what ever reason you feel suddenly as if someone had amputated your arm.
* OS X ... There are so many things why OS X is far superior to Windows (and Linux doesn't even come close for the standard non-geek user). Most of all for the common things people do and should do. One biggest highlight is the native backup system Time Machine. You add either a USB disk or if you bought Time Capsule for the wifi the disk from there and it's about 1-2 clicks to turn the system on. After that you forget about it (that's what 99.99% of standard users do, forget about backups) and you never notice it at all. At least not until your hard drive fails (something I've experienced once and used once when I upgraded the disk to SSD as well as have seen some other people experience so it's not just stories and ads, but real life experience). You then just get the new HDD, boot the machine up (usually the HDD from Apple contains the OS boot environment for recovery or you use your boot usb key or what not) and select recovery from Time Capsule. You then leave for a few hours and you return to an EXACT working laptop pre-disk loss. All your settings, command history, tunes and tweaks, e-mail filters, junk mail learning base, everything (including custom ports and what not of non-OS X stuff) is exactly as you had at the time of last backup. No fuss, you just sit down and continue working as if nothing happened.
* After market value. A lot of people won't buy a Mac out of the shop due to pricing issues, but a 1-2 year used Mac is usually in pristine condition so if you want to upgrade you'll find a decent deal on the aftermarket reducing your entry price for the next laptop. Add to it a custom memory pack and buy an SSD from so
Re:Buy a Macbook Pro, even for Windows/Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Counterpoint: Don't buy a MacBook Pro except if you want OS X. The EFI BIOS is a pain. I spent unreasonable amounts of time holding down magic "alt-apple-whatever" key combinations and rebooting trying to figure out WTF was wrong with the thing. It's MUCH nicer to have a computer that has a BIOS setup screen where you can just go tell it which drive to boot from and which simply gives you an error message when something is wrong. And the whole mess of conflicting partition tables... don't get me started.
I've also found the hardware to be not-so-good. All the components are great, of course, but Apple very much prefers to make the case pretty at the expense of repair. For example: on a thinkpad you open it up by removing five screws from the bottom and pulling off the palm rest and keyboard. Easy. On a MBP, I had to take out no fewer than two dozen screws and pry up a dozen little plastic clips around the edges where the metal top meets the metal side... And they never quite go back together again just right. And for documentation of the procedure? Thinkpads have a detailed service manual; the Mac has ZERO documentation and you're stuck reading online howtos which never seem to cover exactly your model. You're supposed to take it to the store if you want something fixed.
I'm also not happy with the all aluminum design. It looks good, but I'm pretty rough on laptops - I'm in a fabrication shop a lot and shit happens. My MacBook Pro was turning into a scraped and dented beater. My Thinkpad (metal frame, plastic skin) has taken just as many drops to the concrete floor and bangs into equipment, and it's in much better shape (almost like new) even after several years of abuse.
As implied above, I'm now very fond of Thinkpads. For the OP, here's the quick summary of Thinkpad models:
First character:
X - Ultralight
T - Standard size
W - Workstation
Second:
2 - 12"
4 - 14"
5 - 15"
7 - 17"
So a T5xx is a standard-frame 15" laptop.
Real Thinkpads ALWAYS have this keyboard: http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/mobile/lenovo-thinkpad-t61/keyboard.jpg [xbitlabs.com] . Note, seven rows counting up the left side; three volume buttons; round power button; pgup/pgdn above and below each other. Here's a fake Thinkpad: http://www.unitedgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ThinkPad-X100e-Keyboard.jpg [unitedgadget.com] - chiclet keys, six rows, no dedicated volume buttons, etc.
There are two reasons you care: 1, this keyboard is great; 2, what's underneath is built like a Thinkpad, not an Ideapad dressed up in black and sold through business channels. Lenovo has done themselves a huge disservice by diluting the Thinkpad brand this way, but fortunately the real ones are very easy to spot once you recognize the keyboard. There are a bunch of other things that change too, but this one's the easiest to spot.