Ask Slashdot: How To Shop For a Laptop? 732
jakooistra writes "My sister recently asked me for a laptop recommendation. I said, 'Sure, what are techie brothers for,' and diligently started my search for her perfect laptop. Two days later, I feel like I've aged two years. Every laptop vendor seems to want to sell a dozen different, poorly-differentiated models, with no real way of finding out what is customizable without following each model to its own customization page. And there are so many vendors! How am I, as a consumer, supposed to find what I need? Is there a website, hiding somewhere I just can't find, that tracks all the multivariate versions and upgrade choices in an easily searchable database?"
jakooistra adds a few criteria, in case you have specific laptop suggestions: "It needs a good CPU, but we almost don't care about the GPU (HD 3000 graphics are acceptable). A model that doesn't get very hot would be nice. We'd like an SSD and an internal optical drive. A 15"-17" screen at 1366x768 or higher would be ideal. Budget is around $1,500, but could go up to $2,000 if it's really worth it."
Business only! (Score:4, Informative)
Do not buy a consumer laptop, make sure you shop around in the Business/Small Business areas of leading manufacturers (HP, Lenovo, Dell).
Re:Business only! (Score:4, Insightful)
Do not buy a consumer laptop, make sure you shop around in the Business/Small Business areas of leading manufacturers (HP, Lenovo, Dell).
That's funny, because in a recent Slashdot discussion about laptops the exact opposite was recommended - business grade laptops are typically priced higher for essentially the same hardware you get in the "consumer" grade.
Re:Business only! (Score:5, Informative)
I'm actually referencing a slashdot comment from another story. I've gone mad. Oh well.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2861513&cid=40052379 [slashdot.org]
Re: (Score:3)
I agree with the AC above; in my experience, it's worth getting a business-level laptop rather than the consumer grade. The consumer grade laptops are often cheaper for the same specs, but they're often not as good. The construction is often bad, and the components cheap. The designs are often focused on looking cool and flashy to people who don't know any better, with lots of media shortcut buttons and glowy lights, whereas business designs are simpler and more effective.
That's not to say that you can'
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because you are paying for a longer warranty, the manufacturers aren't stupid, they put better parts and have higher QC in the machines with longer warranties.
Re:Business only! (Score:4, Insightful)
And the comment you linked to runs contrary to my experience.
The real business grade laptops - not just from a manufacturer's business line, but the ones that are considered high-end - tend to be built from more durable materials, tend to be designed for easier service, tend to be documented better, and tend to have better support.
Workstation-class, and one step down as far as position in the model range (which often shares hardware with the workstation class, but often with a dual-core and either integrated graphics or a low-end GPU), tend to count as those.
Re:Business only! (Score:5, Insightful)
I tell people to buy the least expensive acceptable model. Save the $ for the next purchase or else something worthwhile. My reason? Laptops, cheap ones, usually will do everything people want. AND when the crap goes south in a year, after the warranty is gone, you won't be as heart broken as if you spent upwards of $2000 for a really really nice laptop with all the bells and whistles.
Right now, you can get a Core i3 2.3 Ghz with 4-6 GB ram for about $500-600. Really, what more is a non-techie gonna need? I get people dropbox or box or some other cloud storage for their "stuff", and quite frankly, most people will be just fine with something like that. There are exceptions, but really, most people would be fine with that.
At that price range, you can buy 3 laptops for the price of the Macs people are recommending above.
Re:Business only! (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a lot to say about this approach. The only extra thing you tend to have to do is to wipe the drive and install a clean OS image (Windows of your particular flavor or Linux). Get rid of the shovelware and weirdo 'utilities' manufacturers still foist on the unsuspecting.
Most people doing word processing, Internet, an occasional picture or movie don't need anything built in the last half decade. That's why tablets work for a lot of people, horsepower wise.
Re: (Score:3)
You seem to think there may be some connection between those two things.
Be seeing you in about a year. Have fun.
Re: (Score:3)
More precisely, pick a MODEL which people who support FLEETS of business machines consider high quality.
I'm sure someone current on that can chime in.
Re:Business only! (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Full disclosure, I sell these where I work, but the Toshiba Tecra series ticks all the boxes you mentioned. There is an SSD model, fairly standard GPU, Core i5 processors, and optical drives. Battery life is a bit better, too, being as you're not wasting power spinning metal platters.
Re:Everybody is somewhat right. (Score:4, Informative)
The only problem I have with this is the statement that "Intel graphics downright stink." For gaming? Mostly. For everything else in the world? Intel graphics are more than enough. The HD3000 that came with SandyBridge (and the new IvyBridge GPU... HD4000?) is good enough to play Diablo 3 pretty well, and definitely good enough for any general desktop work.
Just go to store.apple.com (Score:5, Insightful)
Pick MacBook Pro or MacBook Air, then pick a size. Done.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's one thing that all of the other 'tarded manufacturers just cannot get right. Low profit margins? Make more models! Model not selling well? Make more permutations and combinations of the model! Still not selling? Slap on (even) more stickers, make the keyboard glow, add all sorts of other shinny eye candy and faggy arsed shite stuff to it.
Re:Just go to store.apple.com (Score:4, Informative)
You should also understand that manufacturers *want* to confuse you. They want it to be unclear what the difference is between different models. they want it to be difficult to comparison shop. They want to offer a super-cheap model so that the people who will simply buy the cheapest thing they can will have something to buy, but they don't want you to know what's wrong with their cheapo laptop. They want to offer a super expensive laptop, but they don't want you to know that there's a cheaper laptop available that will still do everything that you want. Instead they want you to buy something more expensive than what you need for fear that you're missing something.
Essentially, they don't want you to be too informed, because an informed consumer doesn't buy crap that they don't want or need.
Re:Just go to store.apple.com (Score:4, Interesting)
It's marketing.
You have a bunch of different people buying computers. There's one guy who is just going to buy the cheapest laptop he can, and he's just looking at price. Dell wants him to buy a Dell computer, so they offer a total POS computer at the cheapest price they can muster. Meanwhile, there's a guy who's basically going to buy the most powerful and expensive thing he can find, so Dell is going to offer the highest-end overclocked liquid-cooled tech with a fancy carbon fiber case with lots of blinking lights,all shaped to look like an alien. Right?
And then you have a whole mess of people in between. You have a lot of people who aren't really sure what they want and need. You have a guy who wants a fairly low-end system, but he wants it to be really lightweight. There's a guy who wants a mid-grade system, but it needs a webcam built in. There's a guy who wants the best thing he can get for $2000k. Then there's a bunch more.
So what Dell wants to say is, "Whatever it is you want, we have it. Look, we have 30 different laptops, each a little different, and so surely one of them will fit your needs!" But then you go to comparison shop, and it's not even clear what the differences are. They offer helpful little summaries like, "Good for working on the road, telecommuting," on one and "Good to tote back and forth from work, working from remote locations," on another, as though it's helpful. Sometimes the differences are just the cases, which are comparable in size and weight anyway, but Dell will let you upgrade to an SSD in one and not the other.
So you spot two computers with identical specs in your price range. You can upgrade to 8GB or RAM in this one, but you can't get a webcam. This other one only lets you have a maximum of 4GB of RAM, but you can get a webcam. You need 8GB of RAM and a webcam. Whoops, you have to upgrade to yet another model that supports it all. That'll be $300 more than the others would be with the upgrade. Now could you buy the laptop that Dell is only letting you buy with 4GB of RAM and do an aftermarket upgrade? Maybe. If you can do that, you'll save yourself $300, you'll have to do a lot of research, and if you're wrong you just bought a laptop that doesn't meet your needs.
Now if Dell didn't want this kind of confusing shopping, they'd seriously simplify their product lineup. But they want it. They don't want you to be very clear about what the differences is between the business laptop and the consumer laptop. The business laptop costs more, and they want to be able to tell businesses, "You need this, for lots of reasons I wont' tell you. But the consumer laptop will be no good for you." It might be because the consumer laptop is completely crappy, but when a consumer shows up to buy that consumer laptop, they still want to be able to say, "Oh, yes, that's a very good choice."
WAIT!! new Macbook is due out soon! (Score:5, Informative)
If you decide on Mac, it's probably worth waiting a few weeks - there will be a new MacBook Pro out soon. (The old model is already getting discounted; mid-June to early July expected ship date). It should be lighter and will have the new version of the OS (Mountain Lion) is expected to be released at the same time. OTOH the new model is rumored to not have an optical drive. (Which isn't really a practical drawback in my opinion. The extra battery space will be more useful. Get an external backup drive for extra storage instead.)
Re:WAIT!! new Macbook is due out soon! (Score:5, Informative)
More specifics: 15-inch to be top model, with a 2560 x 1600 retina display. (old model was 1440 by 900) Performance will be nearly 20% higher than the old model, with a 2.7GHz 4-core Ivy Bridge processor. See the Geekbench [geekbench.ca] entry for benchmarks and components. No Ethernet jack, the new model is too thin but it will have USB 3.0, and a converter dongle to Ethernet is available. Nvidia graphics chip is likely. The higher-res screen has an extra $92 parts cost which will likely be passed on, plus profit.
Pink one. (Score:5, Funny)
Get a pink one. She'll be happy.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I think it was some Dell laptops I saw last year that had changeable lids. I don't know if they still sell them.
Re: (Score:3)
There are laptop comparison websites around ... the one I like best is http://pricespy.co.nz/category.php?k=353 [pricespy.co.nz] but of course it depends on your location. Try searching for "laptop comparison" if you want such a meta-search for products.
Re:Pink one. (Score:5, Insightful)
Get a pink one. She'll be happy.
You say that to be funny, but in fact that is another of the many reasons that I always just tell people these days to buy a Mac. Since they only make a few different models of laptops and they don't change the form factor sometimes for years, there is an EXTENSIVE amount of really nice after market accessories available for Macs, including hard cases in various colors, tons of different "skins" and some very nice keyboard protector options. Great for protecting the laptop inside and out, and great for those who like to customize what their computer looks like. A few PC manufacturers sell colored laptops, mainly their cheap consumer models, but guess what? It will always be that color. With the cases and skins widely available for Macs, you can change your laptop's looks as often as you want, and keep the thing looking like new for years even in harsh environments like school/college.
Plus there's the fact that if we can learn to get our damn techie egos out of the way we might realize a couple of things. Firstly, the specs really don't matter much anymore unless you're doing something like hardcore gaming or video processing. Normal people never hit the limits of even low end processors and GPUs these days. Secondly, most non-techie people will actually prefer using Mac OS X, which is yet another reason to get her a Mac.
I'm glad I'm not the only one anymore who just plain got tired of trying to find a decent PC laptop out of the hundreds being marketed. You go to the Apple store and you just decide how big a screen you want, and whether you want an optical drive. That's pretty much it. No matter how anti-Apple you may be, you do have to wonder why there are so many people besides me who are answering this question with "Just buy a Mac."
They're damn good computers. Period.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Now, I want you to imagine that you are a programmer born with lady bits who is reading this thread. How exactly do you feel right now?
Very happy about my pink laptop.
operating system? (Score:2)
does the operating system matter? (or is it just assumed that you want windows)
Narrow down by size/weight first (Score:3)
Since you're buying a laptop, presumably you want to be able to carry it around. If you plan to do a lot of traveling on foot, you'll want a lighter laptop than someone who drives most of the time. Keep in mind that larger laptops tend offer more performance at a smaller price.
Once you've nailed down the physical dimensions you're looking for, you can try to maximize the price/performance ratio from there.
Acer (Score:2, Insightful)
Step 2: Walk into a store (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 1 is to figure out what your absolute demands are so as to narrow your choice already. This includes budgeting, what you'll be using the thing for, etc. Sounds like you've already done this.
Step 2: Walk into a store.
No, seriously. It's all good and well to spec out a machine on the web and then say "this one's perfect!". But then you get it and... the casing feels weird, the way the keyboard types makes you cringe, the glossy screen you thought would be nice and sharp is really just reflecting the bright windows behind you when you sit at your desk, the backslash is situated next to the shift key, the audio quality can be called poor at best and while you intend to use headphones most of the time it's really just not acceptable, and whenever you glance at something else, you can't help but notice some weird fuzzy...moving..jittery.. things on the screen that you can't quite see when you look straight at it but you swear they're there (and they are - hello, temporal dithering - load up the LCD test webpage if possible if you care about the screen).
So go to a store and test the machines in person. THEN go back to the internet to find the best deal / customization options if you really want.. or, if you've pretty much found the one you want, get it at the store (yeah, you could save some bucks - but the store did provide you the service of allowing a hands-on.. might as well reward them, within reason).
Your budget is pretty high for a computer that doesn't need to have much graphical prowess, by the way.
Re:Step 2: Walk into a store (Score:5, Informative)
Fuckery like that is so few stores sell laptops/electronics anymore.
Yep (Score:2)
Dell XPS has the features your looking for, just got an I7, 256GB SSD, and 17" screen for around $1300 or so. And no the manufactures websites are tangled messes of models with no easy way to compare features between different classes of laptops, it's even better when price differ wildly between models with almost the exact same features.
Apple does make it easier by giving you far fewer choices in a case like this (unless they don't have what you want).
Lenovo (Score:2, Insightful)
Get her a Lenovo business laptop. Yes, they are a little bit pricey but you get what you pay for.
Re: (Score:3)
Check the Thinkpad forums and Notebook Review to find out if there are any models with problems.
I like my T61 (with 8GB RAM and 500GB hard disk added later) but I checked before buying and got the Intel graphics chip to avoid video problems.
$299.00 (Score:5, Interesting)
Lenvo B575 with a AMD APU. Does everything I want, cheap enough to throw it out the window if it doesn't.
768p screen is usually bad (Score:5, Informative)
For Linux users ZaReason and System76 (Score:4, Interesting)
both have nice websites with the obvious base choices for you being:
https://zareason.com/shop/Strata-6770.html [zareason.com]
Stock at $849
with a 160GB SSD comes to $1,148
and for me the winner would be:
https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp7 [system76.com]
3rd Generation Intel Core i7-3610QM Processor
Stock at $899
With 180 GB SSD comes $1178
Btw, for what you are asking for, your budget seems high actually :).
Re: (Score:2)
I forgot to mention ZaReason also has a sale page, with some great steals sometimes, they occasionally put laptops there as well..
https://zareason.com/shop/Sale/ [zareason.com]
My only actual experience with one of the above vendors is ZaReason and it was a desktop (my current desktop working very nicely still).
It's a Lenovo Thinkpad/Apple decision. (Score:5, Insightful)
Select between Lenovo(Thinkpad) and Apple refurbished, then drill down to whatever models fit the criteria. Then do a favor for them and get them to have the longest warranty obtainable. For Lenovo, this would be 5-year(?, maximum may be 4) onsite service. For Apple, whatever Applecare does is going to have to do.
Either company has some thin and stylish laptops in that price range. Lenovo just happens to make them more maintenance friendly.
Buy a Macbook Pro, even for Windows/Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Honestly, for $1500 the Macbook Pro or MBA will suit you very well, even if you don't intend to run OS X. The machines are well built and come with a decent warranty and will last for a long time. They also have pretty high resale value.
If you want to run Windows or Linux then dual booting is a snap (you can blow away the OS X partition completely if you like).
If you do go this route though, I advise that you wait until after Apple's WWDC keynote on June 11th - the strong likelihood is that the 2012 versions of the Macbook Pro and Macbook Air will be announced, so even if you want a current 2011 one, if you wait you can either get a new one for the same price, or a 2011 for a discount.
Re:Buy a Macbook Pro, even for Windows/Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Counterpoint: Don't buy a MacBook Pro except if you want OS X. The EFI BIOS is a pain. I spent unreasonable amounts of time holding down magic "alt-apple-whatever" key combinations and rebooting trying to figure out WTF was wrong with the thing. It's MUCH nicer to have a computer that has a BIOS setup screen where you can just go tell it which drive to boot from and which simply gives you an error message when something is wrong. And the whole mess of conflicting partition tables... don't get me started.
I've also found the hardware to be not-so-good. All the components are great, of course, but Apple very much prefers to make the case pretty at the expense of repair. For example: on a thinkpad you open it up by removing five screws from the bottom and pulling off the palm rest and keyboard. Easy. On a MBP, I had to take out no fewer than two dozen screws and pry up a dozen little plastic clips around the edges where the metal top meets the metal side... And they never quite go back together again just right. And for documentation of the procedure? Thinkpads have a detailed service manual; the Mac has ZERO documentation and you're stuck reading online howtos which never seem to cover exactly your model. You're supposed to take it to the store if you want something fixed.
I'm also not happy with the all aluminum design. It looks good, but I'm pretty rough on laptops - I'm in a fabrication shop a lot and shit happens. My MacBook Pro was turning into a scraped and dented beater. My Thinkpad (metal frame, plastic skin) has taken just as many drops to the concrete floor and bangs into equipment, and it's in much better shape (almost like new) even after several years of abuse.
As implied above, I'm now very fond of Thinkpads. For the OP, here's the quick summary of Thinkpad models:
First character:
X - Ultralight
T - Standard size
W - Workstation
Second:
2 - 12"
4 - 14"
5 - 15"
7 - 17"
So a T5xx is a standard-frame 15" laptop.
Real Thinkpads ALWAYS have this keyboard: http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/mobile/lenovo-thinkpad-t61/keyboard.jpg [xbitlabs.com] . Note, seven rows counting up the left side; three volume buttons; round power button; pgup/pgdn above and below each other. Here's a fake Thinkpad: http://www.unitedgadget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ThinkPad-X100e-Keyboard.jpg [unitedgadget.com] - chiclet keys, six rows, no dedicated volume buttons, etc.
There are two reasons you care: 1, this keyboard is great; 2, what's underneath is built like a Thinkpad, not an Ideapad dressed up in black and sold through business channels. Lenovo has done themselves a huge disservice by diluting the Thinkpad brand this way, but fortunately the real ones are very easy to spot once you recognize the keyboard. There are a bunch of other things that change too, but this one's the easiest to spot.
Re:Buy a Macbook Pro, even for Windows/Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Does that "same" hardware also include the case and screen? That's one (not the only) reason they cost more.
How much for a Windows laptop with an all-metal case? Or at the very least, one that equally as rugged as the Macbook Pro (although I guess if it's plastic it's going to be bigger and bulkier to get the same ruggedness, but we can let that pass).
I never understood why buying a computer had to be a race for the bottom. Then people end up complaining about how crappy their computer is.
Re: (Score:3)
Other pro-Mac considerations:
1. Battery life. My 13" unibody MacBook Pro is almost 3 years old now and I still get decent battery life, 3 hours easily under moderate load. My previous HP dv1000 series laptop was lucky to get 2 under light load when it was new.
2. Trackpad - the Mac touchpad/trackpads are fantastic!
3. Magsafe adapter!! I cannot emphasize this one enough, especially with kids around.
4. Backlit keyboard. This is available on many PC laptops but not all. I very much miss this when I'm using
Re: (Score:3)
My wife had a Dell. It worked fine until the battery died and needed replacing. Of course it is a proprietary Dell battery and costs $$$$. Then it died again. And again. So now she has a Mac. The Dell was no bargain.
Re:Buy a Macbook Pro, even for Windows/Linux (Score:4, Interesting)
Huh. My father was a big Dell fan. He bought himself one, then my mother one, then my sister one. All the batteries died, and the replacements too. He has a macbook pro now. My sister is currently using a Toshiba. And my mother has an iPad.
Microsoft Store (Score:2)
First, pick your brand. (Score:2)
Dells tend to break after a year. HP's, 6 months if you do anything other than leave them in one spot on your desk, a year otherwise.
Lenovo's are basically rebranded IBMs, and are typically decently constructed. I've had good luck with Fujitsu as well, but only for their tablet notebooks (higher end).
Mac's are higher priced, and higher end, but are also built well.
Once you've figured out w
Commodity Item (Score:2)
Take her to a store a good selection and let her choose from what's available. If it feels shoddy, skip it. Otherwise any name brand laptop will likely keep her happy.
Probably the only thing I would add is to look at maxing out the RAM - never a bad thing. And, as suggested, lighter is better. For t
Why a laptop? (Score:2)
At least for me, the ideal setup is a badass desktop for srs bsns + a cheapo netbook or tablet for when you need the mobility. It will probably cost less than a good laptop.
1366x768 on a 15" $1500 laptop? (Score:5, Interesting)
Holy crap, that's a horrible idea.
I almost bought an Asus G55. Fifteen inch screen, full 1920x1080 resolution, and just around $1500. Only reason I didn't end up buying it was because I was mislead by the pre-order page to believe that it had two hard drive bays as well as the optical drive bay. Apparently Asus removed that feature without notifying resellers, because I got an email weeks later telling me the machine I'd configured was impossible - I got upgraded to the larger G75 instead.
Now, that particular machine would be terrible for light office/home use. But I've used 1366x768 screens - they are *terrible*, and when you're spending a grand and a half on a laptop, they're completely underspec.
Try to get at least a 1600x900 screen. Seriously. That's just about the most important advice I can give you.
Might rethink the specs (Score:3)
Notably you should try to find a way to actually touch and hold your choice. Particularly your relative may not realize what a 17" laptop would mean for portability.
After having a few laptops ranging from 12 to 17 inches over time, I've found 14" to be what I feel to be a good compromise. 1600x900 display at least. When reasonable, I use an external 22" monitor at 1920x1200, but I wouldn't want to drag aronud the requisite bulk and weight of a 17" laptop again...
All brands come from the same few factories,,, (Score:2)
,,, so the most cost effective way to get a quality laptop is to buy a factory brand. Just search for Clevo and/or Compal which are the factories' house brands. RJ Tech is one reseller where you can get them.
If we're asking about laptops... (Score:2)
I'm also looking for one. Does anyone have any suggestions for a 12/13" laptop that can withstand some knocks and falls? I haven't found one that isn't designed for taking on the Dakar trip and therefore cost $2000+.
Do what I did (Score:2)
Do what I did - realise old laptop is no longer up to the job; notice Aldi has a laptop on special the next week at AU$600 with suitable specs (in particular, 8GB RAM); figure "I can return it for any reason within 60 days so might as well see if it's suitable"; grab the third of four available at the store; get it home; realise it has a matte screen; go "Woohoo!".
A couple of days later (following a fair bit of tweaking) I had a new work laptop that I'm very happy with.
Dell or Apple refurb (Score:3)
no other choice. Save a ton of money and get great warranties
Microcenter is a good place to compare and buy. (Score:5, Informative)
If you are lucky enough to have one of these [microcenter.com]very cool stores near you they are a great place to shop and buy tech. The prices are good, and for a brick and mortar operation they are sometimes awesome -- and the staff is usually informed. They also sell online. But a lot of stuff is in-store only. I have to drive for an hour to get to mine, but it is worth it. You could take your sister with you.
I go into consumer coma in the store near me (Rockville MD). I imagine it is like being in an online operation's warehouse. I just bought components for an Ivy Bridge desktop build. They beat Newegg on the prices of the main components, MoBo and CPU, but Newegg was cheaper for the smaller boards. Cables etc were also reasonable at Microcenter (Unlike Best Buy where the prices of cables and cords are usurious). Laptop selection was also good, but I wasn't buying.
As for comparison tips. I look at likely products with lots of reviews to take advantage of the hive mind. Then the percentage of good to bad reviews for a given product. Then I read a few good and a few bad. Sometimes a bad review of an otherwise good product will expose a deal killer for me. This is not the end all be all of a buying decision, but not all reviews are astroturfed.
Last thing about a laptop buy. Teach your sis to take care of it. Don't run it on a pillow. Don't flop it on a table like a text book. Or slam it shut like a car door. Put it in its case to travel. And follow good practice with the battery (even Lions need some thought.) And wipe it down from time to time. Silicon has a soul and likes to be kept clean.
Two Words: Window Shop (Score:3)
Younger, less tech savvy buyers are going to base more of their critique of a laptop on form factor since they won't be stressing the hardware. Let her look at the aesthetics of laptops, keyboard feel, color, screen size, and weight. You should then *secondarily* back up her decision if the hardware and vendor are suitable.
Really, hardware is so beyond what laymen users need nowadays that I wouldn't trust making a laptop decision based on a list of components.
Related question: graphics cards (Score:3)
5 basic steps. (Score:5, Interesting)
Step 1: The biggest problem with laptops are generally reliability. Figure out the reliable brands. Apple, Dell, Toshiba, and oddly Asus generally do well there, and Sony & HP are usually close to last. Start at those manufacturer sites.
Step 2: The major differentiation is in CPU type & Speed. Is it a quad-core i7? an i3? If you're doing video editing or realtime code debugging, you need a top level i7. For gaming, an i5 is fine, and for everyone else an i3 is AOK. Note: Everyone offers laptops in whatever screen size you want. So pick your screen size and ignore the rest. Also, ignore anything over 8 lbs. The weight is never worth it.
Step 3: GPU. If you need a gaming processor, configure the biggest the manufacturer offers. This can never be upgraded, there are no real options, and you can't get it later. So get it. If you don't need gaming, then Great! Nothing else uses the bloody thing, so don't bother.
Step 4: Battery length. It's usually worth splurging on the biggest battery you can find, so configure that into the build. Everyone has a "long" one that lasts about the same length. Look for manufacturers who have battery settings that keep the charge withing 20% min and 80% max... This will greatly extend the lifespan of that extra 100 bucks.
Step 5: Now figure out which setup is the closest to what you want, and go for it! Why haven't I mentioned RAM, Hard drive, software, or other optional extras? Because buying this from the manufacturer is flushing money down the toilet. Buy these after-market.
Re: (Score:3)
Oh, and avoid anything that's too "new" or "clever." 99.99% of these in laptops are showy Sharper-Image Catalog junk. Multitouch touchpads on non-macs are utterly useless, hybrid drives are terrible to debug, those finger scanners are crap, etc. Anything in hardware too new or flashy is going to be unsupported, and likely junk. Meat and potatoes is what you're after, and keep the flash for your software.
Re:mac (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:mac (Score:5, Insightful)
Mac has done well is avoiding the exact problem the OP describes
That's a typical misconception. Apple puts together a very pretty package and basically dictates what you will run, how you will run it, what you can do with it, and where you can do it. There are a whole new set of problems with mac, and if you are quite limited as to what you can do software-wise. You will still have software problems. You still have viruses. You still have software problems with upgrades. People still need to search some forum from time-to-time to figure out how to fix some strange new issue. Ever try and build something from Ports only to have it *not* friggin work when you upgrade? Yeah, same issues. It's not a perfect world that everyone seems to imply. Don't get me wrong, Apple has gone to great lengths to make the use experienced top-notch, but it still has it's problems just like Windows, Linux and FreeBSD. I get really tired of people making it out to be some trouble-free system when it's not.
Re:mac (Score:4, Insightful)
Considering that the Mac will run all of your Windows and Linux software alongside Mac stuff, I fail to see how you can say it's limited software-wise.
Re:mac (Score:5, Interesting)
Single-button, multi-touch trackpad. Two two fingers to right-click or scroll. It works better in Windows than any trackpad I've ever used.
The strongest argument I can see against getting a Mac is they're expensive compared to PCs. I got mine second because of that.
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when trying to do a right-click-drag, which a surprising number of people use quite a lot.
Yeah... I'd be surprised if his sister even knew what a right-click-drag was. You're really, really, really reaching.
Re:mac (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep in mind this isn't a recommendation for the techie brother, but for aforementioned non-techie sister of the techie brother. All of the problems you list are really nerd problems (with a healthy dose of anti-Apple mania thrown in, I might add) and not problems for a casual user. If she has the money for a high-end laptop (and does - budget is "up to $2000"), might as well spend it on a Mac. She'll be happier in the long run and the techie brother can stop shopping for countless hours trying to figure out what's customizable and what isn't.
Your statement that it's not trouble-free is correct, but you imply that it's no more trouble-free than the laptops running Windows. It is, actually. By quite a bit.
Re:mac (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems to me that the techie brother isn't much of a techie if he can't find or interpret specifications. He might know how to set the clock on his microwave, but he is not a techie.
Real techies never read marketing materials when buying a computer, because spec sheets explain CPU, GPU, memory and storage options.
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Or an Acer. Or a Packard-Bell or an eMachines, which are both effectively Acer.
I fix computers for a living, most of those I fix are laptops, and most of those that are not fixable end up in the parts pile because the owners often don't want them back. As a result I have a small number of dead Toshibas, Sonys and other known brands... and a growing pile of dead Acers. Stay the hell away.
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Mac has done well is avoiding the exact problem the OP describes
That's a typical misconception. Apple puts together a very pretty package and basically dictates what you will run....
The problem that the OP was describing, the problem that Apple does not have, is the weird fragmentation of the product line. If you go to Dell's website, for example, you might find 10 different models of 15" laptops, and it won't be very clear what the difference is between models. As the OP says:
Every laptop vendor seems to want to sell a dozen different, poorly-differentiated models, with no real way of finding out what is customizable without following each model to its own customization page.
Apple indeed does not have this problem. They have exactly one model of 15" laptop, and there are only a few things you can do to customize. What you can and cannot customize is pretty clear. So when you go
Re:mac (Score:5, Interesting)
If you go to Dell's website, for example, you might find 10 different models of 15" laptops, and it won't be very clear what the difference is between models
And anything a geek cares about (max ram, HD slots - some come with one drive but hold more, and videocard range, as they show "common" config, usually base to go with the base price shown) is hidden from the comparison. But some details are in there most don't care about (i5 vs i5 where you have to look up processor codes to see what the differences are). And damn if half can be upgraded to "HD+" and a few to "Full HD" and you can't know until you try to configure every single one of them, though some comparison screens do show the difference, but not always, and not easily.
I hate Dell for that. I want to be able to put in some options, get some pull downs for other options, then given a choice of "this one has a numeric keypad, and the others don't" or "this one has 2xUSB 3.0 and the other has 4x USB 2.0" or whatever the difference is between the inspiron and latitude versions is when essentially identical configuration.
You are the one sporting misconceptions (Score:5, Informative)
Apple puts together a very pretty package and basically dictates what you will run, how you will run it, what you can do with it, and where you can do it.
You can run anything you like on any Macbook. And as other responders have noted it DOES solve the "too many models" problem, there is a limited selection of base models. It's basically, do you want an air or not and how much memory (RAM and storage) with reasonable defaults so you cannot go wrong simply ordering default configurations.
You will still have software problems.
Here's the key thing. Yes, you will have software problems. But who will solve them? If you are helping a friend buy a PC it's YOU who are solving them, that's who.
If you help someone buy a Mac you can simply say "try the Apple store Genius Bar first". Chances are they can help, they generally are pretty competent and pretty technical.
You still have viruses.
Actually no. There's one virus, one, that was from a Java installation, and an OS update already closed the hole. And you would have had to go through a chain of trouble to activate it... not a virus at all in fact.
But even ignoring the technical definition the truth is that unlike a PC, generally you can let a non-technical user go for years with a Mac and be pretty sure they will not have a virus.
You still have software problems with upgrades.
Actually that is REALLY rare, and again - Apple Store, not you. I have not had upgrade problems in years with any Mac software updates.
People still need to search some forum from time-to-time to figure out how to fix some strange new issue.
Or have someone help them for free, at an Apple Store. Are you starting to get what makes a Mac such a great idea for non-technical users? How is a non-technical person supposed to search forums for "odd problems" anyway? They cannot.
Ever try and build something from Ports only to have it *not* friggin work when you upgrade?
Come on man, that's not something the original poster is going to find a problem. If you are compiling UNIX utilities yes you may have some hiccups, but even then you can usually just recompile!
Apple has gone to great lengths to make the use experienced top-notch, but it still has it's problems just like Windows
That is the biggest misconception. I still have to help people with modern (Windows 7) pc's from time to time. Macs do NOT have problems anywhere close to what non-technical windows users have every day.
To even think about buying a non-technical user a Windows box and all the inherent baggage that comes with it is simply cruel to my mind - and it's a cruelty that as I said will be punishing you as well as the recipient.
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It honestly depends on what it's going to be used for. If the end-user is getting their start in video or audio editing, I'd instantly recommend a Mac solely on the software that is only available on Mac. Garageband is fantastic to learn and really easy to pick up, and it's easy to move up to the more professional products when the time comes.
My efforts searching for a Windows equivalent that's as easy to use as Garageband (for my aspiring musician friends) has proven difficult. (Any suggestions would be ap
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I wish someone would print out the quoted section and staple it to the forehead of the COO of every major laptop and mobile phone manufacturer. I had a similar experience a few months ago trying to decide which phone to buy. The manufacturers all have a vast array of models without any clear differentiation. Except Apple, which sells new-iPhone and old-iPhone. It was very easy to see why people look at them all and say 'fuck this, i'm getting an iPhone'. It was a perfect example of the Paradox of Choic
Re:mac (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, pretty much this. I'm pleased to see how few of the Mac postings are being trolled or trolling themselves.
Steve Jobs nixed a metric butt-load of models across all lines when he came back for this reason. The performas and quadras and centris models were all so close to each other. Then you had the same problem with the laptops.
13" macbook pro unless she's going to be doing video editing or heavy-duty rendering/number-crunching.
Reports? word processing, web browsing, email?
You're done.
Yeah it costs more, but I'll put money down that it will last longer (ie-she will be happier keeping it) than any "windows" laptop.
And yes, as stated here, there's no problem running windows * on it. Just put an external mouse on it or learn to right click from a particular corner of the trackpad.
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>Yeah it costs more, but I'll put money down that it will last longer
The physical Mac hardware may (or may not) last logger than the typical PC counterparts, however there are two issue with the Apple OS release schedule that when combined may lead to early obsolesce of their hardware.
1). Apple only supports the current and previous OS version.
2). Apple seems to be decreasing the time time between OS releases. They now appear to be on a yearly schedule.
This could render new Mac's unsupported within a 3 year window.
You're basing your point on an unstated assumption; that new OS releases will not be supported on older hardware. I do not know whether this assumption is true, but I suspect it is not. I have heard that Apple has a good history of not increasing hardware requirements too much with new OS releases.
Have I heard wrong?
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
A couple of years ago I got my mom a Macbook with an AppleCare warranty. (Total cost about $1,000) She is extremely computer illiterate, i.e. copying and pasting links via IM is an advanced topic for her. The machine has behaved well, it hasn't 'rotted' like Windows likes to. The DVD rom failed at some point. She took it to the Apple store and they fixed it right up.
I paid more than I would have for a Windows laptop and I really do not regret it. I've had to do very little tech support for her and Apple has taken care of the rest.
All in all, I'm satisfied, my mother is too.
Re:mac (Score:5, Funny)
All in all, I'm satisfied, my mother is too.
*Sigh* I really should hit preview before I post.
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All in all, I'm satisfied, my mother is too.
*Sigh* I really should hit preview before I post.
That's what she said.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Re:mac (Score:4, Interesting)
Configuration Price $1,999 * 2.2GHz Quad-core Intel Core i7 * 4GB 1333MHz DDR3 SDRAM â" 2x2GB * 128GB Solid State Drive * SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) * MacBook Pro 15-inch Glossy Widescreen Display * Backlit Keyboard (English) & User's Guide * Accessory Kit
Try to leave range in the budget so that you can add AppleCare. The extended warranty and support is very nice to have.
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Holy apple tax batman! Are they making macbooks out of gold plate these days? $2000 is upper mid to high end Alienware money. You Mac fanboys might have had a reason back when apple used ppc hardware. But now that Apple uses the same stuff as everyone else in the PC world, there's no excuse for this kind of price gouging. Unless you are telling me that OSX is worth the $800 - $1000 difference in hardware.......
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Comparable in every way except being able to run any modern OS in the world, including Mac OS X.
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
This is the standard claim that is thrown against Apple. It's not the glowing bitten Apple you're buying with that extra dough. What you are getting is a lot more things:
* Robust case that works the exact same way also 3 years after active use and possible multiple falls. The screen still closes tightly and soundlessly. I've had my MacBook Pro fall somehow and dent one edge near the CD drive and I've never noticed it. A comparable blow to cause aluminum to dent like this would have shattered a plastic laptop.
* Ease of use. And that's something most people forget to price really. If your life turns around Linux kernels and command line and you don't have lawn to mow or family to spend quality time with, then you might not understand how much that is worth. Software management is hassle free (drag and drop for 90% of stuff, App Store for the rest that keeps and does all the updates for you).
* Easy support from Apple as already outlined in many posts that makes sure any issue that pops up for the ordinary user is solved and their experience is a great one. Forget here the geeks that squeak when the latest nightly doesn't build from ports or what not. Noone cares about that really as it affects a negligible amount of people in the real world (albeit quite a lot of people on slashdot).
* The speed... Forget the need to compare drive spin speeds and CPU MHz and what not. What really matters is the speed at which your computer operates when you do stuff. And while Mac's are usually "underpowered" in comparison to many PC's it's due to perfectly clear reasons and lack of need for anything higher. You don't gain much by slamming the highest end CPU in there and then being unable to sustain it for 8h as well as the heating that you have to take care of. What really matters is that the macs with OS X combination is really snappy in most situations. If you go for an Air that is all SSD with passive cooling you get nice speed with no noise what so ever.
* The trackpad. I mean seriously that's one major thing that either has to be seriously patented out or I cannot fathom why others don't use it yet. The huge trackpad is very nice to the feel under the finger and the multi touch gestures are something you grow into so tightly that when you have to use a non-mac laptop for what ever reason you feel suddenly as if someone had amputated your arm.
* OS X ... There are so many things why OS X is far superior to Windows (and Linux doesn't even come close for the standard non-geek user). Most of all for the common things people do and should do. One biggest highlight is the native backup system Time Machine. You add either a USB disk or if you bought Time Capsule for the wifi the disk from there and it's about 1-2 clicks to turn the system on. After that you forget about it (that's what 99.99% of standard users do, forget about backups) and you never notice it at all. At least not until your hard drive fails (something I've experienced once and used once when I upgraded the disk to SSD as well as have seen some other people experience so it's not just stories and ads, but real life experience). You then just get the new HDD, boot the machine up (usually the HDD from Apple contains the OS boot environment for recovery or you use your boot usb key or what not) and select recovery from Time Capsule. You then leave for a few hours and you return to an EXACT working laptop pre-disk loss. All your settings, command history, tunes and tweaks, e-mail filters, junk mail learning base, everything (including custom ports and what not of non-OS X stuff) is exactly as you had at the time of last backup. No fuss, you just sit down and continue working as if nothing happened.
* After market value. A lot of people won't buy a Mac out of the shop due to pricing issues, but a 1-2 year used Mac is usually in pristine condition so if you want to upgrade you'll find a decent deal on the aftermarket reducing your entry price for the next laptop. Add to it a custom memory pack and buy an SSD from so
Re:mac (Score:5, Insightful)
get a mac
It sounds trite, but there is a kernel of wisdom there. Buy a Macbook Pro if you can afford it.
If you have the budget, you'll get what you pay for. It has the only extended warranty for any electronic gadget that Consumer Reports recommends. It will run any OS you like. It will last for 5 to 10 years depending on your needs (games vs web/email, respectively). You can spend a similar amount and get a comparable or slightly better hardware package from Dell/Alienware, but it won't come with the warranty, OS options, elegance or robustness that Macbook Pros are famous for.
This suggestion will start a flame war. You're going to hear from fanatics from both sides. However, I manage a mix of computers for both a small business and a household with several power users, and I have learned firsthand the strengths and weakness of both camps.
Windows' strengths are in gaming and technical/engineering applications. If you want access to the most games, or need to run CAD/FEA applications, then you should buy a Windows desktop machine. Not a laptop, but one that you can upgrade piecemeal as your needs evolve. Build your own, or arrange to have one built for you, and you can get a spectacular set of hardware specs for a very low price.
However, if you want a casual use or business laptop, then Apple's MBPs are the best available, even if you intend to run Windows exclusively. The extra money you spend will eventually pay off in 1) time saved in building it, and 2) the time saved in maintaining it. The 2.2 GHz 15-inch models offer the best price/performance ratio if your budget is constrained. Otherwise, I recommend buying the 17-inch 2.5GHz quad-core i7 - it will last the longest before you need to purchase a replacement.
Re:mac (Score:4, Interesting)
Her price range ($1,500 - $2,000) and level of technical aptitude (or lack thereof) makes her a perfect Apple candidate. This is my recommendation too.
If she ever just -has- to run Windows, make sure to get the 256GB SSD in it, so you've got room for two healthy sized partitions.
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
Re:mac (Score:5, Informative)
I would have to second the recommendation for Lenovo. The place I'm working used to be exclusively a Lenovo shop and I was very impressed with the engineering of the boxes. They originally gave me a very old Lenovo desktop that had been around the block a few too many times and was under-configured. The optical drive no longer worked. When the IT guy came to replace the CD and add more memory I couldn't believe how quickly he finished. Seriously, it couldn't have taken him more than 60 seconds to open the box, add the memory, pop out the old CD and pop in the new one.
That got me looking seriously at Lenovo. Shortly afterward I bought a Thinkpad W700 laptop that has seen near continual use for almost three years now. Last year I bought a Thinkpad X-series laptop so I had something a little easier to travel with than the behemoth W700. The W700 will soon be replaced with a W530. Nothing really wrong with it, but it's three years old and I'm dying to get one of those new Ivy Bridge i7 machines.
The Thinkpads aren't sexy. They're no-nonsense, well-engineered tools to get a job done. And equivalently equipped they cost a helluva lot less than a Mac.
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Lenovos don't get stolen (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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It sounds trite, but there is a kernel of wisdom there. Buy a Macbook Pro if you can afford it.
For someone with limited computer literacy, that's probably just overkill in price and features. a 13" Macbook Air is probably fine.
Or if you are going to get a Macbook Pro, definitely don't buy one NOW. Apple is almost definitely going to release an update in a month, with rumors saying it will be 30% thinner, lighter, and probably with a "retina" (ie. stupid marketing speak for MUCH higher resolution) screen.
Re:mac (Score:5, Insightful)
You're doing it hopelessly wrong.
She has totally different criteria than you. Numbers and specs mean nothing. Anything on the shelf will be powerful enough and have enough RAM, etc. for a normal person.
The real question is: Will it make her happy?
Take her to a big shop with lots of laptops and see which one she fondles. Feel the keys, pay particular attention to the trackpad buttons. Pick it up and see if it feels solid. If it seems reasonably well built then that's the right one.
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Non-ironically, yes indeed. Get the cheapest macbook (without extended warranty), and be done with it.
I did this 4 years ago, so it's one of the plastic models, and still no problems whatsoever. I use it several hours daily, am using it to type this message. Even the battery is still good after 450 full cycles (the warranty is 80% capacity after 300 cycles). Not as good as new, but still lasts 2.5-3 hours during normal browsing/typing. The biggest problem is the backlight is getting less bright (this is nor
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Doesn't have the internal optical drive, but its coming in under budget so they probably wouldn't mind buying an external. Don't know about the screen, though. It's the resolution of a 15", but its physically 13". It is cool, it has an SSD, the performance is great, and its a fabulous machine. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.
Re:Get a Mac (Score:5, Informative)
No matter what you get max out the RAM to whatever the system Max is everytging else willlast her five years. But software always chews up more ram than it should
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Wow you're the first person in this whole comments section to actually respond to the poster's question. Everyone else is so excited to tell the person what the best laptop is, they dont realize that the poster wants to know how to compare laptops, not which one to buy. I agree, newegg is the best place to go to make comparisons, especially for individual parts, but also for full systems.
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A tad redundant. Tons of comments saying pretty much the exact same words without additional insight gets a tad old. Besides, unless submitter lives under a rock, they certainly already know about those offerings as Apple is *very* aggressive and savvy about their marketing. Many of the other options do not acheive the same awareness as Apple.
For me, without a pointer device on the home row, it's a non-starter. Therefore mac is off the table, even if it weren't 15-20% more expenisve than comparable qual
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I think it is *key* to try to find a way to actually physically evaluate whatever you narrow it down to. For mobile computing, form factor, weight, balance, rigidity, and other factors are best assessed first-hand.