Ask Slashdot: Preempting Sexual Harassment In the Workplace? 1127
zwei2stein writes "My team of about 10 men (IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a female one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse. We already have women in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a sexual innuendo jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned." What has your workplace done to create a good culture on this front? And what hasn't worked?
laws (Score:5, Insightful)
You need to understand the laws around sexual harassment, which you clearly do not.
Good grief... (Score:5, Insightful)
...It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse...
So you work with a bunch of unprofessional animals?
You should *already* have a policy that makes such comments and such a work environment unacceptable.
Let them know that this type of childish behavior is not only unacceptable, but will result in being canned.
End of sentence.
Hire a trainer (Score:5, Insightful)
I am serious. From your post you are already over the line. A lawsuit is just one disgruntled employee away. Fix it and fast.
Guaranteed? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is your team a bunch of 14YOs?
Don't hire children. (Score:3, Insightful)
Hire mature adults who don't feel the need to marginalize women instead of manchildren?
The only thing you can do (Score:5, Insightful)
is to hire people whom you can trust to behave like adults. Seems like you have no trust in your team if you need to resort to petty punishments like these, which is a bigger problem.
Preparing the Inquisition already? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have so little confidence in your crew, why are they still working for you?
Generally speaking, most professional men above the age of 20 that are managed properly will behave properly. The fact that you feel your crew will not behave properly speaks volumes about your management.
This little set of "exercises" you have planned seems like a witch hunt - something you do when you need a scapegoat. I'm glad I don't work with you.
As an IT manager who hired the team's 1st woman... (Score:5, Insightful)
We had none of this garbage. None. I knew I didn't even have to say a word to my guys...why? Because we're all adults and professionals and we know better than to do that shit.
Listen, it's 2012 and almost every single one of your employees has been through some sort of mandatory sexual harassment training at some point in their careers. If you have someone who hasn't (recent college grad with no other work history or an intern or something) pull them aside and handle it.
If this is an issue w/your staff, you should make some other changes, not just the woman you brought on board.
Pardon Me (Score:5, Insightful)
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks...
What the hell?
Are you all twelve or are some of you thirteen yet?
Get off my lawn and take your adolescent misogyny with you!
a 'fun' way sounds like a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
This does not sound like a good idea to me. It makes it seem like some kind of American college comedy film, where you wink and tsk tsk the naughty fratboys for their inevitable innuendos and they smirk and promise to behave better.
How about just making it clear to any employees that they're expected to act professionally with their colleagues of any race/gender/age/whatever?
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Very real consequences (Score:4, Insightful)
The tie and "swear jar" are fun ideas, but sexual harassment lawsuits are no laughing matter. Careers have been ruined in both directions and companies a lot in both legal expenses as well as reputability. I would suggest telling those "10 guys" to grow up or gtfo.
Hiring.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Hire someone because they fit the group and either have technical skills, or are capable of learning them... If they have all the best skills, but don't fit in the group, they're not the right hire. You can train skills, you can't train them to be happy and functional in an existing group.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
There's also a need to understand other aspects of the law. In some states, vacation days are considered wages and cannot be subtracted once awarded (though a reasonable cap can be applied). Bonuses can be revoked, but those "fairly harsh" ideas presented are handled at the HR level, and if it's reached that level, then the defense against a lawsuit is weak at best.
The best defense is to not go down that path to begin with, or failing that, find some maturity quickly.
WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why doesn't your company already have policies in place on this, and why don't you hire employees who know how to act like adults?
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a hint. Just because the law says something is or is not appropriate/right/etc doesn't mean that's the case everywhere. Here we have someone looking for an appropriate response to an expected situation rather than jumping right to ruining lives over an errant (or even misinterpreted) comment.
Be prepared to fire people over this (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Create a policy, in writing, about what is and what is not acceptable behavior in the workplace when it comes to sexual harassment.
2. If somebody violates that policy, reprimand them privately at first, and then publicly if they still don't get it. And keep a record of doing that.
3. If somebody continues to violate the policy, fire them.
If you're not willing to fire people to make a non-harassing culture happen, then you aren't really serious about putting a stop to it. And these are exactly the kind of steps you need to have taken if your company gets sued over your guys' behavior.
Some other things you can do:
1. Lead by example. Treat her like a professional, because that's what she is. Treat your guys the same way if you aren't already, and make it clear that you expect them to act the same way. When you're working, you're working, not hanging out with your buddies at the bar.
2. Nip it in the bud. Don't wait for the second comment, or there will be a third.
3. Make it clear that you're putting a stop to it because if you don't, your boss will (They should back you up on this, if they don't give up, it's a lost cause)
4. Tell 'em (truthfully) you may be able to loosen things up if things go well at first. If your new employee makes it totally clear that she's fine with this sort of thing, then you can let the guys go with it.
IANAL, TINLA, etc.
Whoa boy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Your "simple, fun ways" are going to get you into hot water. By doing that, you're basically encouraging such behavior by turning something from inappropriate behavior to behavior that's okay as long as you're willing to wear a funny tie.
You talk about your team, so I assume you're in a larger organization. That organization most likely has some HR representation, so I suggest you talk to them about what the baseline rules and laws are. I'm surprised your company hasn't already had some sort of mandatory training (training which I tend to think is just relaying common sense, but based on your write up, I'm not sure in your team's case).
For the grey areas not covered by those rules, why don't you go discuss with the other women you mention to learn their experiences? Double entendres and the like are not necessarily harassment/hostile work environment, but it depends on how they're played. If they're all being directed at the female team member, then yeah, you're probably asking for trouble.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good grief... (Score:5, Insightful)
...It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse...
So you work with a bunch of unprofessional animals?
You should *already* have a policy that makes such comments and such a work environment unacceptable.
Let them know that this type of childish behavior is not only unacceptable, but will result in being canned.
End of sentence.
Third that. We've been through it.
I've had a role in someone's removal, due to innapropriate behaviour. We have policies in place and managers understand them. What I worried could have been a painful process was handled professionally and calm and order were restored to the workplace, further the feeling it is a safe workplace was reinforced.
This question just pisses me off (Score:5, Insightful)
A female colleague just joined our team a few months back (previously all male). Know what we did to prepare? Nothing. Because we are all adults and knowwhat's appropriate in the workplace. The innuendo didn't exist before she joined and it sure as hell didn't start after.
You want to prevent it? Don't fucking do it, and don't accept it when anyone else does. Certainly don't treat it like a game or accept that it is inevitable.
Companies like yours are the ones that give the media ammunition when they want to dig up crap about gender discrimination in the IT/IS world.
tl;dr -you're all big boys now and should damn well know what's acceptable behavior.
What kind of people work there? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, double entendres and innuendos with huge potential of getting worse.
As a male, I would not want to work with those people. Your company has a personnel problem well beyond what you think it is.
IAAL, imagining a deposition... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The only thing you can do (Score:2, Insightful)
Your office sounds boring.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:5, Insightful)
The office isn't the pub. It's a professional working environment where certain standards have to be maintained.
You may be lucky enough to hire someone that will give as good as they get, but you may hire someone who isn't. That's not their fault. They would have an expectation that they're joining a professional company, not a bunch of cowboys who can't control their mouths and sexism.
It's time for the OP's company to mature and grow up into a decent, open, friendly workplace where nobody feels that they are the victim of prejudice, bullying, etc.
A single female in a workplace of several mouthy sexist men is not going to feel comfortable.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
This, 1000x this.
Making up a humourus punishment is acknowledging that something potentially illegal happened, and trying to institutionally laugh it off. You absolutely cannot do that. Not once. Not ever.
Imagine if this was physical abuse. And I have some personal experience with this, where an employee at our organization threw a phone at another employee. The *only* thing you do in that situation is call security and possibly for medical care to verify the extent of any injuries for insurance and legal purposes. You may also have to call the police if your security doesn't do that automatically. That employee was immediately terminated and no longer allowed on the premises.
if zwei2stein is the manager/supervisor anything like that he should be immediately replaced from that position. Before the female employee starts. Even suggesting that you might laugh off sexual harassment could itself be construed as a form of harassment depending on where you are.
It sucks when rules have to be written by lawyers, but company rules about dealing with sexual harassment have to be if not written by lawyers, approved by them, and basically all boil down to '0 tolerance'.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:5, Insightful)
If guys behave this way in general, perhaps it's a problem with the legal system and not guys.
As most of the other posters in this thread have demonstrated, guys don't behave this way in general. It's just not that difficult to leave a lot of sexual innuendo and horseplay out of a workplace. This isn't about paying someone to tell you how not to act like human beings--that's just an excuse for not doing anything about sloppy behaviour.
If you're such a sad, immature specimen that you just can't help bringing sex into every conversation and situation, that's your damage, not society's.
Re:Throw PC out the window (Score:4, Insightful)
I sincerely hope you neither have, nor ever will have, a daughter.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:5, Insightful)
Right. It's not a man's fault if he can't refrain from acting like a horny jackass all the time. It's those damn wimmenz and their sensitivity. Don't fix your environment because you want your female coworkers to feel comfortable and welcomed; fix it because those bitches will ruin your company the second you grab her ass (just in a fooling around kind of way, which totally makes it not sexual harassment).
You, big fellah, are part of the problem. This kind of thing is why women have to put up with so much BS. And don't pull that stupid "I'm a guy, I'm biologically programmed to think about sex constantly!" It's a BS excuse for not acting like a goddamn adult.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:3, Insightful)
Really...why should a group/team that has been working for ages, all of a sudden have to stop and change and stifle themselves just because a woman is joining the group?
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because the law says something is or is not appropriate/right/etc doesn't mean that's the case everywhere.
Tell that to the judge who is asking you to liquidate all of your company's assets to pay for the harassment penalties.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:4, Insightful)
YOU DON"T HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED, IF WE LET THIS GO ON WE ARE OPENING TO DOOR TO MORE NONSENSE.
Yes you do. It's an actual defined legal right. In a workplace no one is allowed to say something that is discriminatory based on age, gender, sexual orientation, race, or even health conditions. Personally I think it's a fairly good rule too. Work is where you work. And it's not sexist-the rule applies to comments women make as well as men (and yes women make these comments too).
Put another way... (Score:5, Insightful)
"My team of about 10 white men (white IT guys) is expecting a new colleague: a black one. It is guaranteed that there will be remarks, racist jokes and insults with huge potential of getting worse. We already have blacks in teams who can somehow handle this (and deliver apropriate verbal slaps). How would you deal with this? We talked about some simple, fun ways — anyone who [acts inappropriately] will have to wear an embarassing tie, etc. — instead of swear jar, having a racist-remark jar and even fairly harsh punishments (like people losing their bonuses for the month or their extra vaccation days). I'd like to figure out a solution that would be effective, not call much attention to itself, and not be quickly abandoned."
This kind of work environment is completely unacceptable in the 21st century.
Re:What has your workplace done? (Score:5, Insightful)
No wonder men don't care often for working with women. You have to bend to the lowest common denominator as far as 'feelings' go....legally.
Guys can't be guys in the workplace....
Yes, they are expected to be professional, not a bunch of guys with a locker room vocabulary. It's not the 1950's anymore.
I work among many women and to be quite frank they sometimes say things among themselves I don't care to hear, either. Personal stuff is for personal time, not work time.
You already have a problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Which one sounds more like childish whining: Not wanting to have people talk shit at you all day? Or not wanting to have to shut your mouth and stop talking shit?
When someone wants you to stop talking in the theater, is it they who are the jerk because they can't just deal with it?
People: if you can't stop yourself from saying sexually harassing things, you've got some serious problems. If you whine that you are somehow being oppressed because you can't say stupid shit to whoever you want, you're a whiney baby.
Most of us are much better than this, of course, but there's always a few idiots in these discussions that still don't get it. Thanks, Tastecicles, for bringing the stupid.
Re:Good grief... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently these people (including the manager) are not actually professionals. Promulgating an environment where you are just "protecting-my-guys" because "we-are-getting-the-job-done" and "I-know-better-than-a-bunch-of-adminstrators" is basically what Joe Paterno did. Yeah, that worked great for him for a while, but it isn't a professional environment, and it's one waiting for the shoe to drop.
Re:Good grief... (Score:2, Insightful)
No...sounds like a typical group of guys that have been working together for a long period of time, without having to artificially censor themselves, or walk on eggshells in how they naturally converse with each other within the group.
Pretty common to all male working groups....
Re:What has your workplace done? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a guy, and I've never found it difficult not to bring sex into workplace conversations and situations. Here's a short list of other things I find it easy not to do in a professional context:
1. Masturbate.
2. Shit myself.
3. Spend all day reading Facebook updates.
4. Nap.
5. Talk about my cats.
Your definition of "being a guy" seems to include acting like you're in a frat house when you're not. Okay, shine on, you crazy diamond. The rest of us will get on with our day accepting boundaries and getting on with our jobs.
Re:Good grief... (Score:5, Insightful)
The one problem I've seen is that the person who feels like it it was over the line is afraid to say so. This needs to be made clear: That joking around and being a cohesive team means not being a bunch of stodgy twits, but it also means be respectful and that it's ok to say "I didn't like that" and that it will be accepted and the person saying it won't feel isolated for it.
-nB
Re:What has your workplace done? (Score:5, Insightful)
If I'm gay, can I be a "guy" in your workplace? Can I comment on your nice firm ass? Make give you a slap on the but every once and a while because you're doing such a good job?
Guys being guys.. right?
Re:What has your workplace done? (Score:2, Insightful)
Replace "women" with "people of a different race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc". People who don't want to work with people in those categories are not "men", they are anti-social morons who shouldn't be working with anybody.
Re:laws (Score:2, Insightful)
And besides which, what are you guys, 16? How about the first guy that actually gets out of line gets his ass kicked? Or are you all too juvenile to act like adults?
Re:Good grief... (Score:5, Insightful)
Great..so, now, the group turns into a souless, business only work entity...no more joking around, camaraderie, or for that matter....discussing many things as innocuous as what was on TV last night...because someone might get offended.
Zero tolerance sucks the life out of just about any situation that it is declared in.
Genuine, prolonged harassment is one thing...not to be tolerated, but the zero tolerance thing you posit....just kills fun and friendship, and generally makes the workplace a drudge.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
The way this question is posed sounds like someone off to a really bad start. Making "simple, fun" games out of what should be Standards of Conduct for a work environment is just asking for trouble. Would you put up a jar for someone to pay into every time they tell a nigger joke? Or a lighthearted way of dealing with people stealing equipment? It sounds like the current environment is the sociological equivalent of a bunch of guys who never had to grow up and move out of their parents' basement. Well... it's time. Grown-ups don't have any trouble figuring out what's socially-acceptable behavior and acting accordingly. Tell your staff it's time for them to be grown-ups. It doesn't mean you can't still have a fun environment... I'm guessing it's probably still fun without racist comments (trust me: some of your staff probably think them without saying them). Bring someone in for a "awareness" program, and the boss should set the tone indicating that he takes it seriously. Anyone who doesn't... needs to get to work on their resume, and also practicing "would you like fries with that" because acting like a grown-up who refrains from sexual innuendo at the work place is a pretty standard job requirement.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:5, Insightful)
This x1000000. If I hadn't already posted, I'd mod this up.
A single female in such a workplace is also not going to stay there for very long (at least, I wouldn't... fortunately it hasn't been an issue for me as yet), and if you get somebody who sticks up for herself, then the consequences can be very expensive. The last words you want to hear in an exit interview are "hostile workplace".
They may also find, upon introducing proper rules regarding it, that some of the men already working there aren't very comfortable with the current situation, either. Women aren't the only group of people that can be bothered by misogyny.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Says the guy who's obviously never been in the minority position in an uncomfortable environment.
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
And note that in the OP's case, it may very well be that the woman that joins the group is perfectly comfortable in that environment, but that's a decision she gets to make, like it or not. Where I work now, there are women who can dish it out just as well as the guys (and seem to enjoy doing so), but we're all aware of what others are comfortable with. It's a natural part of simply being respectful.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
It's 2012. This isn't some arcane art. You have new-hires sign a sexual harassment policy and you have all employees consume a sexual harassment policy training session every year or so (an online recorded session does just fine). This way, everyone is aware of the legal obligations, the company policy, and the responses they can expect if they violate policy. Then, you have an HR department that handles complaints and reports and acts accordingly as per law and company policy, including termination if deemed necessary.
I really can't imagine where these people are working that this is even an issue. I'm a professional in the tech industry and I can't imagine anyone I've worked with having any sort of inappropriate interactions with female colleagues (nor have I ever encountered this happening in almost two decades in the industry). Aren't we at least two or three decades past the transitional "women coming into the workplace" period? Aren't practically all the guys that would be old enough for this to even remotely be a problem for already retired?
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job.
Actually, all adults should be able to do their job without having to have a bit of thick skin concerning actions from their coworkers.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but this goes both ways. If an employee finds sexually orientated office banter offensive then you have to absolutely snip(sic) it in the bud
OTOH having meetings to establish a policy before anything actually happens is a bit of an insult to the people already working there. You're basically saying you think they're idiots.
Give them a chance ... maybe nothing will happen.
If something happens, act immediately to nip it in the bud.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Because, like it or not, there are going to be more women in the IT workplace in the future, not less. Our society is becoming more integrated, which is a good thing! Step back for a minute, look at what you just said, only replace 'female' with 'black' or 'irish' or 'peasant' and 'male' with 'white' or 'British' or 'noble'.
"Why should the group have to change for one new incommer?" Because it's the right thing to do, even if it's inconvenient and doesn't go smoothly.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, these days...legal reasons are the bottom line, which is sad. I mean, shouldn't all adults be able to have a bit of thick skin and do their job. Even in a bunch of just guys....individual guys get razzed and all, that's just normal. And yet...no one get sued, and work gets done...etc.
Getting razzed is fine. Having comments made about your sexuality when they haven't been invited is absolutely unacceptable. Besides gender issues, many people prefer to keep their sexuality private. I can think of hundreds of reasons ranging from closeted non-standard sexual orientations to religious conviction, not to mention the fact that some people are there to do a job, not to be propositioned or pick up a hookup for the night.
Basically, I prefer to keep my sexuality in the bedroom (so to speak), and I demand that everybody stay out of my bedroom unless invited, and I have only invited one person. I don't think that this privacy is too much to ask, and I do think that invading it in this way is intolerably disrespectful.
And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
I don't know what culture you are a part of that tolerates this, but I am a married man, and no, I would not appreciate double entendre statements addressed to me. I do take my wedding vows seriously as they are the foundation of my children's whole world and existence, and I would never joke or permit someone to joke about the idea of me being sexual with someone besides my wife. Maybe that is all just a joke to you. But in my workplace, men don't talk to women like that, women don't talk to men like that. And we are in "good old boy" east Texas, yet somehow we manage to behave like grownups who are here to do a job, not to get laid.
US centric answers (Score:5, Insightful)
I notice a lot of US centric answers, including references to "sexual harassment training". The submitter's profile page indicates he's located in the Czech Republic.
As another European, I can say that the only time I've heard of "sexual harassment training" (interesting name, btw - does it train you to be better at it?) is in slashdot posts, by Americans, on the topic. While sexual harassment laws exist here, they obviously don't work the same way, or are enforced with the same rigour on this side of the pond.
Now, I do agree with the general advice, which is essentially grow the fuck up, but assuming American law and corporate procedures when giving advice is probably not very helpful.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
If a guy joins a group of previously all women, do they have to stifle themselves, go to mixed workplace training, etc? And really...if the women started making double entendre comments and the like...does anyone think the typical man entering that group would get upset in the least bit?
Well, imagine this if you would: Pretend that instead of going into a heavily male profession like IT, you'd gone into a heavily female profession, nursing. You go out, get a job, move to a new town, you show up for your first day of work and what you hear all day from other nurses is comments not about nursing but about the apparant size of your dick and your presumed sex life or lack thereof. And your ugly hag of a boss is deciding whether you'll be promoted or not based on how nicely you smile when she looks you up and down with clear sexual intent (or in more extreme cases whether you agree to sleep with her).
Think about how you'd really truly react in that kind of scenario, and you might understand the problem.
Re:Good grief... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Your point is well founded, but I find it a bit disturbing. The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees. They are human beings, and if you drive them all the way to sue you, it probably means you've made them suffer along the road, which is much worse than a "nice settlement".
Of course, there is probably the odd person not really suffering and still suing just for money, but if there's ground for a lawsuit there's probably something morally wrong behind the scene.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:5, Insightful)
YOU DON"T HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED, IF WE LET THIS GO ON WE ARE OPENING TO DOOR TO MORE NONSENSE.
Yes you do. It's an actual defined legal right.
Nope, you're thinking of harassment.
You have a right not to be harassed by somebody (repeated personal offensiveness, directed at you). You don't have a right to live in a land of unicorns and pixies where nobody ever says anything you don't like.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
The night janitor has a better chance of fixing your code than a lawyer has of improving your workplace environment.
There are a lot of causal expressions that are in common usage which if followed to their roots, will be found to have a sexual connotation. And there are just enough female workers looking for any excuse to file a complaint.
In a place I worked, a part failed in a production machine, and the replacement was two states and three days away. The deadline was the next day. The supervisor muttered "We're screwed!" and the woman handling shipping orders filed a complaint.
This kind of thing happens all the time. All. The. Time. The bigger the company and the more aggressive the EEO department, the more it happens.
And by your prescription, there has to be a hearing, lawyers have to be involved, outside mediators, people reprimanded, the whole nine yards.
There has to be a better way.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine if this was physical abuse.
Why not imagine that it were eco-terrorism, or a breach of contract, or an act of vandalism, or any other completely unrelated issue, like the physical abuse you mention? It's easy to avoid behavior that is objectively wrong (a knife in the stomach kills anyone), but if the issue is "person X is being offended where many others wouldn't since all people are different", I find it pretty hard to justify the kind of disciplinary actions some of the commenters seem to advocate. I'm happy to live in a more backwater-ish part of the world where grave acts of harrasment including threats, intimidations, and all sorts of physical stuff are punished but jokes and banter are treated for what they actually are. If anything, some of my female colleagues made *me* blush for some things I've heard from them, not the other way round. No one sane has ever had any problem with it. I hope that no one ever will.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not about improving workplace environment. It's about securing your position against destructive lawsuits.
Former is nice to have. Latter is mandatory.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:5, Insightful)
why should you have to leave it out?
Because behaviour that you find okay, because you're not the target, is behaviour that others can find problematic.
Imagine you have a team in the workplace where everyone is white, and you guys like to tell racist jokes. Nothing wrong with that, right? You're not racist, you just find them funny, and it makes for a nice atmosphere where you're all having fun and feel comfortable, and no one's ever complained, and you're all okay with it because, deep down, you're all pretty good people.
Then management tells you that your new colleague starts Monday, and he's black. Does the same "why do we have to change?" question make sense? Your new colleague could just suck it up, tell some of his own jokes, and be a good sport about it. But why should he have too? Why should keeping and excelling at his job require that he listen to you telling nigger jokes, and laugh along with you so you don't feel the kind of "why do I have to change?" resentment you're displaying now?
You don't have a right to any particular group dynamic, and just because one works at one point doesn't mean it'll work at another. It also doesn't mean that other dynamics won't work as well, or better. As a lot of testimony in this thread demonstrates, lots of people enjoy their jobs and their teams without requiring the particular behaviour you seem to find essential.
where guys can be guys
To be perfectly clear, "guys being guys" is a totally artificial definition that's basically meaningless because you're just blessing your current behaviour. There's nothing essential to "guyness" that requires the kind of behaviour you're defending.
any woman walking into that group can likely immediately have $$ signs in her eyes, regardless if the atmosphere is truly hostile
Clearly you don't understand the perspective of women in the workplace, so maybe just accept that a lot of women, walking into the situation you seem to enjoy, would rather just be able to do their jobs without having to put up with you making jokes about her short skirt and how she should buy a more push-up-like bra so she can get a raise.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not re-assign the disrupting factor (the new incoming female employee) to another group where it won't be a problem?
Sounds like the original, all male group was working just fine....why break that up?
At the very least....you put her in, and everyone has to walk on eggshells....she's gonna be pretty much totally isolated from the group dynamic...and the group itself.
Why should the group have to change for one new incommer?
What if "She" happens to be the one person the group will depend upon for success? Do you really want to think that through? Many employers in IT are expecting you to have your act together enough to work with anybody, regardless of gender, regligion, race, sexual orientation, because they hired you to get your work done, not sit around moaning you can't talk like a 'guy' around a female.
Geez, you people are making me feel like I'm part of management or something ...
Re:laws (Score:4, Insightful)
imagine if this was physical abuse.
Equating a dumb spoken remark and physical abuse is stupid.
Re:Good grief... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty common to all male working groups....
Umm, no, it's not. I've worked in a lot of different settings, often with nothing but guys, several of the grousp for a period of years, and only once have I seen a group of men behave like you're describing. What you're calling "pretty common" is very rare in my experience. But then, I work with adults.
Even outside the workplace, this sort of behavior is the exception, not the norm. In my own personal social circle (a group of mostly men who've been close friends for 25+ years and have been through heaven and hell together). But then, my friends are adults, too.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What has your workplace done? (Score:5, Insightful)
In practice, yes you can. Anyone who complains will be called a homophobe and sent for re-education.
Harassment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:2, Insightful)
I've always felt like I had a reasonable understanding of what it might feel like to be in such a minority position, at least in an intellectual sense, but it wasn't until I worked in a fairly large team that was >60% Indian and 20% Chinese (myself being white) that I truly understood it. So unless you've "walked a mile in her shoes", you're in no position to criticise a woman who feels uncomfortable in a group of men who act like crude sexist jerks (while claiming not to be). I'm not a big fan of zero-tolerance PC policies, but I do strongly believe in having respect for others, and if that means no sexual innuendo or whatever, I'm fine with that.
Ok, sure, that's fine and good. But did you suffer many tens of thousands (maybe even millions) of dollars in damages from that experience? I think not. Did your then-coworkers deserve a criminal record and getting dragged to court and put through the legal wringer and having their lives ruined because of those cultural gaps? Again, I doubt that seriously.
I'm sorry but women need to choose one and only one option: be protected like a child or some kind of delicate little flower, or be treated as an equal and expected to tolerate anything a man is expected to deal with. They are mutually exclusive by their very nature.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Turned out that he was gay (nobody had ANY clue) and found the workplace to be sexually hostile.
Under the circumstances that you described (and many other "guys just being guys" situations), I am pretty sure that anyone, of any gender or sexual orientation, could have won a lawsuit.
It isn't about who might be offended. It is about following well understood and easily complied with standards that protect everyone.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
Many employers in IT are expecting you to have your act together enough to work with anybody, regardless of gender, regligion, race, sexual orientation, because they hired you to get your work done, not sit around moaning you can't talk like a 'guy' around a female.
Geez, you people are making me feel like I'm part of management or something ...
Exactly, I agree with both points. I'm really shocked and disappointed; maybe I'm lucky, but I never saw these kinds of problems with sexual harassment, "brogramming", and other such bullshit in my career, except at one dinky little company that was my first job out of college and which I left as soon as I could, and they weren't anywhere near big enough to have 10 IT guys, and even then they had some female employees (purchasing, etc.) and the men knew enough to act right when the women were around. Honestly, I think this is really pathetic. If you're hired as a professional, then act like it.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm betting submitter is talking about "That's what she said" jokes a la The Office.
That's what he, loser of a sexual harassment judgement, said.
The Office is funny because the characters are clearly caricatures of badly behaving people.
Re:Hire a trainer (Score:0, Insightful)
And what is the BS excuse for acting like a spoiled, entitled princess who is not allowed to have her feelings hurt? Can she not "act like a goddamn adult" and suck it up? Or speak to the offender? Why does she need someone else to protect her precious feelings?
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What has your workplace done? (Score:4, Insightful)
This would make me uncomfortable, yes but I think the I should be able to say this makes me uncomfortable please don't do it and you should stop.
I would not be scarred for life, no need to sue or take any further unless you refuse to stop.
The problem is different people have different tolerances for this type of behaviour, you should always treat people with respect and try to make them feel conformable. But I only got a C in mind reading class so sometimes I assume I get it wrong.
I think there should be a onus on the person that is offended to inform the person that is offending them first. (Perhaps not when the person has direct authority over them) It is hard but sometimes in life you have to stand up of yourself. Standing up for yourself will make you feel better about yourself as well.
I believe that most people are good I think they probably don't even realise they are offending you.
So the escalation procedure should be:
1. Get offended
2. Clearly Inform the offender
3. Inform manager
4. Law suite
steps 2 and 3 should not be missed unless you where more than just offended or upset.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
I have nothing against prosecuting people who use their positions of authority to demand sexual favors, but in USA things have became utterly silly. ANYTHING can be considering harassment, even the way you look at someone. It is no wonder jobs are getting outsourced more and more.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds like the submitter's team is already a place where lighthearted banter is commonplace and I don't think for a second that should change for a new member to the team. It doesn't matter if the new team member is a different gender, race, or creed. The existing team needs to be aware that some jabs might need to change a bit, and the new team member needs it made clear that they should speak up if any jokes make them uncomfortable. As much as we try to codify everything into some sort of policy - nothing works better than open communication.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Because of this. [wikipedia.org]
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason you shouldn't let this happen should not be the fear of a lawsuit, but the welfare of your employees.
100% correct - companies should do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because they might get sued for not doing the right thing.
Unfortunately, considering that most corporations would be considered sociopaths were they to be psychoanalyzed, the possibility that they will do the right thing because it's the right thing is slim-to-none; hence, fear of legal (or rather, financial) repercussion is about the only way to get their attention.
It's sad and stupid, but thus is the world we inhabit.
Re:As an IT manager who hired the team's 1st woman (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not about off-the-cuff remarks. Contrary to what popular (right-wing) culture wants to tell you, not every woman is a raging man-hating bitch for not wanting a consistent stream of sexist remarks directed at her.
Mature women can handle the occasional off-the-cuff remark as long as there is no pattern of consistent misogyny. If you want to see what such a pattern looks like, try reading this discussion, or any Slashdot discussion that touches on feminism, at -1.
Mart
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:2, Insightful)
Harassment should take intent into account, just like many other crimes.
"But your Honor, I didn't mean to offend her when I said she had nice tits! Hell, it was supposed to be a compliment!"
Good luck with that defense, Jack.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:4, Insightful)
The guy is putting the responsibility for his marriage on his kids. As in "I stay married because I have kids". Not "because I love my wife", not "because I made a commitment", but "because I have kids".
Notwithstanding the question of whether, if the marriage turns sour, it's better for the kids if the parents go find happiness somewhere else, putting the whole onus of justifying one's marriage with "it's better for the kids" is one hell of an external locus of control.
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:2, Insightful)
You need to stop thinking that sexual harassment is exclusively something that men do to women, or at some future point another man will drag you into court because he didn't appreciate the atmosphere of sexual innuendo that you promoted at work, and he will win.
Re:laws (Score:5, Insightful)
And the same applies to the female in question. If I hire an employee, male or female I expect her or him to get the work done, instead of bitching about not liking what other employees are saying and making frivolous accusation of sexual harassing because of fleeting remarks.
I have nothing against prosecuting people who use their positions of authority to demand sexual favors, but in USA things have became utterly silly. ANYTHING can be considering harassment, even the way you look at someone. It is no wonder jobs are getting outsourced more and more.
This is an excellent point. The tolerance does have to flow both ways in such a situation, always.
I'm not saying that there aren't sniggering little douches out there, whose prime goal is to make anyone eligible to wear a skirt as uncomfortable as possible (you know who you are), but on the other hand, women working in a traditionally male workplace can't be exceptionally thin skinned either. They simply have to make it clear to everyone from the outset that the conversations, comments and innuendo in no way applies to them, they're just there to do the job.
Case in point: I used to work in the oil patch around about ten years ago. At first my crew / shopmates weren't sure quite how to behave with a 'girl' on the truck (I saw an awful lot of bare spots on the walls where the nudie pics were hastily removed :). After a brief discussion with the guys, I made it clear that I didn't mind foul language, dirty jokes, or photos of women on the walls (as long as they were wearing a bikini at least), so long as they were absolutely, crystal clear that none of that ever applies to me. They relaxed, I relaxed, and we got along great! The guys would keep their skin mags in the sleeper, and always made sure I had privacy when we didn't have a bathroom on site (more often than not, unfortunately). They'd even call down the rig guys on my behalf if they started getting obnoxious, they really were a super set of guys to work with.
Of course, the other side of the coin is: the boss must be approachable if there is even one jerk in the bunch who won't take 'no' or 'get lost' for an answer. I thankfully never got to that point, the few who were mildly persistent eventually got it through their heads that I was serious about my job and would never break my workplace rules on the matter. But if it is causing stress, and the guy just won't take a hint, then the boss better be ready to back her up with measures. Same from the other direction: if she starts hitting on some of the team and won't take 'no', or 'I'm married' for an answer, the boss had better be ready to back the guys up, pronto!
Re:It's called "Get A Grip!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Work is not supposed to be about fun and hyjinks, it is place where you are supposed to cultivate and practice your professional focus. It's about professional self respect, respect for your workplace and respect for your colleagues.
I once worked in a country where work culture is that lines between work and life are very very blurred. Office romance and sexualisation of the workplace was common and accepted as normal. Being the foreigner, got hit on by women and gay men all the freaking time. Worst work environment ever. I know sounds ace, initially it was quite flattering, but it got very tiresome very quickly. Heading off the work, I just want to focus on how to squeeze more ms out of a DB query, but know at some point during the day I am going to get sexually harrassed. Sex and romance is something you pursue outside of work.