Ask Slashdot: How To Ask College To Change Intro To Computing? 337
First time accepted submitter taz346 writes "I got a Bachelor's degree 30 years ago, but I recently started back to college to get an Associate's degree. Most of the core courses are already covered by my B.A. but one that I didn't take way back when was Introduction to Computing. I am taking that now but have been very disappointed to find that it is really just Introduction to Microsoft Office 2010. That's actually the name of the (very expensive) textbook. It is mindless, boring and pretty useless for someone who's used PCs for about 20 years. But beyond that, why does it have to be all about MS Office and nothing else? Couldn't they just teach people to create documents, etc., and let them use any office software, like Libre Office? It seems to me that would be more useful; students would learn how to actually create things on their computers, not just follow step-by-step commands from a dumbed-down book about one piece of increasingly expensive software. I know doing it the way they do now is easy for the college, but it's not really teaching students much about what they can do with computers. So when the class is over, I plan to write a letter to the college asking them to change the course as I suggested above. I'm not real hopeful, but what the heck. Do folks out there have any good suggestions as to what might be the most persuasive arguments I can make?"
When I was in high school (Score:5, Insightful)
One thing you may find (Score:5, Insightful)
I would highly recommend you look into that possibility before you start writing a letter, because if that is the case at your school then you'll just be tilting at windmills.
Get your head out of your ass (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:When I was in high school (Score:5, Insightful)
You say that, but it is increasingly more difficult to even get interviewed without that piece of paper. It doesn't matter what your skills are when your resume is binned without even talking to you.
Computing is in everything (Score:4, Insightful)
Setting up a home network, including a FIOS/DSL router or a cable modem and a Tivo/DVR with a a cable card. Options for mobile computing/e-mail. Password strategies. Controlling what you share on social networks. Transferring files around between PC/smart phone/tablet/digital camera/etc. Keeping an offsite backup of important data. etc. etc.
Re:Just pass the course and move on (Score:5, Insightful)
What does a credit hour cost?
How many students are going to be ripped off? What percentage of those already learned this in high school or junior high?
It's institutionalized theft. I'm amazed you are so sanguine about it.
Re:One thing you may find (Score:2, Insightful)
What he said - Follow the money.
Keep your mouth shut, complete the schooling....... then rip into them after you get your papers.
This has nothing to do with computer science..... what a joke.
Re:I know the feel. (Score:4, Insightful)
Explain how this is false?
I get it, 4 digit UID, you must be a database god.
But lets be real here. You didn't jump straight out of the womb into calculus. You stepped on stones to get where you are. For many, Access is that stone that introduces them to databases and SQL. For better or worse, it is one of the most accessible database tools around.
You're in the wrong course, the course isn't wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
But beyond that, why does it have to be all about MS Office and nothing else? Couldn't they just teach people to create documents, etc., and let them use any office software, like Libre Office?
We tried this at the last school I was at. If by the time you get to university you can't create a document in word, you're not going to learn to use libre office in 12 weeks. We have to teach behaviours before we can expect much understanding, and a course textbook that is about MS office is decidedly at the level of giving basic behaviours without underlying principles.
The problem with people who are completely computer illiterate is that high minded ideas about teaching them 'principles' is a step ahead of them, at least by the time they're university or college age. They're scared of breaking anything, and you're jumping the gun asking for more than that.
I know doing it the way they do now is easy for the college, but it's not really teaching students much about what they can do with computers.
Nor is that the point. If the course is a book in Office the class is targeted at people who know next to nothing and trying to get them to the point of accomplishing basic tasks that will be useful in university.
So when the class is over, I plan to write a letter to the college asking them to change the course as I suggested above. I'm not real hopeful
Nor should you be. It's not a good idea. We can seat 400 kids in a class about how to use MS word whereas the next largest CS course is 120, with an entrance class in science of about 6000. Exceptionally basic classes are popular because so many students know next to nothing. The Deans office likes these classes because they put seats in chairs, the other science departments like us because their TA's don't have to cover basic things like how to do bullet points in a document, etc. It's sad, but this is the reality of computer literacy. Complaining to the dean is just going to make you unpopular with the department because you're trying to make people look bad, when absolutely everyone knows how pathetic it is that this is required. But you can't control worldwide highschool curriculum.
Look, I realize you're trying to help. But you're not. You're in the wrong class. It's that simple. If your university/college has an actual computer science programme absolutely no one in that department, who is running the course, thinks this is the level we really want students to be at. But you have to realize we still get foreign students who've never lived with regular electricity, and most of the domestic ones basically open word and start mashing buttons to type, they don't actually know anything. These are exceptionally basic courses because the people coming in are at an exceptionally basic level, and that's the market that needs to be served. It shouldn't be a university level credit, but no one would take it if we only gave a college level credit for it (they have other things to spend time on), and that means it attracts people looking for some free easy marks, there's no way to avoid that, but for the people who actually need this level of material (which is a lot of students, and a lot more who don't even realize they need this level of material) what you're suggesting is completely disconnected from their reality.
Do folks out there have any good suggestions as to what might be the most persuasive arguments I can make?"
Literally the only argument is that students shouldn't need this in the first place, which isn't even true. Everything else is you just living in a bubble of 'first world problems' so to speak.
We, I kid you not, have students majoring in computer science and electrical engineering where I am that grew up without electricity, and their first plane flight was to come here. It's mostly a India/China/Africa thing, but it's rare that someone from China or india hasn't had at le
Re:Get your head out of your ass (Score:5, Insightful)
College should prepare them for future employment.
Wrong. That's the job of a vocational school. Granted, submitter's getting an associates, so it's closer to a career-oriented degree than not. Irrespective, two or four years should merely be differenciated by the depth of knowledge in a particular field, not the breadth of knowledge overall.
College is about education. Education does not have a pure application, in the same sense that abstract mathematics and partical physics don't have pure applications. In fact, it should not. Education begins with the fundamentals. Fundamentals don't change no matter what the application. They're the default information, the fallback, safe knowledge, when there's no additional information known. Then, it's learning about the exceptions to the fundamentals, where the fundamentals don't apply, or don't necessarily apply. Finally, it's learning about the unresolved exceptions, and approaches of resolving them. The area of unresolved exceptions is the limits of knowledge, and where the old knowledge ends and new knowledge will be created. Examples should be used only to illustrate the concepts taught. Examples should never be the knowledge being taught.
Teaching MS Office is not intro to computers. Teaching the difference between a spreadsheet and a database, a text editor and a word processor, is. Teaching what a program is, what it means to install a program versus what it means to run a program (without or after installing) is.
Teaching the concept of a shortcut or link is. How to use MS Office is more appropriate for one of their career-based, continuing education-type classes. It's like teaching how to use a Canon 5D Mk III with a 14mm F2.8 prime, instead of what is the field of view or what the F-stop means. Or for a car analogy, it's teaching how to change the motor oil of a 1996 Honda Accord instead of what motor oil actually does and why it needs to be changed at all. Those kinds of classes don't belong in a degree program.
That having been said, any respectable institution has ways to test out of prerequisites. Otherwise, it's just a scam to make you pay more tuition. This wouldn't happen to be the University of Phoenix or some other for-profit, would it?
Re:Just pass the course and move on (Score:5, Insightful)
... I *was* a kid at the time. That was the point. This was close to 20 years ago, in the 90s. I don't list them, especially now.
I no longer work in any IT related disciplines, I am a CAD draftsman. It ca be dull and drudgery at times, but that is true of any job. Not having to answer questions because "you're a computer guy, right?" Is well worth it, as is the radically reduced levels of stress.
It would be nonsense to claim those certs on a resume.
It wasn't nonsense to claim them when I was 18. For the submitter, who has been in the industry previously, A+, Network+, and CCNA would be wastes of money and time as well, since vocationally he should have become proficient already, and the cert means nothing. They however, less rediculous than the MS office requirement, for exactly the same reasons. Expecting somebody that has likely *already* been supporting office users vocationally to take an intro to office class is not just silly, it is minbogglingly mindshatteringly silly.
I believe that was the submitter's point, in addition to the obvious that computers are not glorified typewriters.
Re:Get your head out of your ass (Score:4, Insightful)
Teaching MS Office is not intro to computers.
For people who haven't used them before, it is.
It's nice to argue about the purpose of a college education, but sadly most colleges have had to start offering classes in how to learn and how to do classwork just so the students they enroll have a fighting chance of succeeding. They aren't teaching this class (just) to be a vocational school, they're probably teaching it because they found out a lot of their incoming students were deficient in skills that would allow them to write papers or lab reports for other classes they need to take.
That's the reason many colleges offer remedial math and remedial english classes, too. I was dumbstruck to wander through the college bookstore here and see a PICTURE DICTIONARY on the shelves as a mandatory book for a low level class. It wasn't a class intended for foreign students, either.
Intro classes are almost always intended for many colleges, not just the one where it is offered. It is almost certain that a University curriculum committee of some kind has determined there is a need for this kind of instruction, and changing it will be a lot harder than getting different classes at a more advanced level created.
That said, yes, if you have a BA already, then there should be some way to get credit for the class.
Re:Get your head out of your ass (Score:3, Insightful)
I couldn't disagree with you more. This is not a computer science vs programming school debate like we always have here on slashdot. This is about employment as well as surviving 4 years of college. I wish highschools taught kids how to use margins, insert footnotes, or do formulas and pivot tables, but they do not. So college needs to pick up. This is something all students need to know if they want to take any courses.
Kids out of highschool today may know how to type well and use a good browser unlike their parents, but many do not even know about margins or how to use autocalc in excel or even sometimes not even know how to add a formula in a spreadsheet! They will be clobbered in the real world or when they take statistics as an upper clansman later on. Knowing Word, Excel, MacOSX/Windows are part of your skillet you need regardless of major. I just read today that 53% of all applicants to a 4 year institution had SAT scores there not even highschool level!
I substitute taught in high-school and you would be surprised at things we assume everyone could do. The good news is younger elementary school children know how to set a margin up and how to use an = for a cell. So teachers are starting to catch on but still.
Office and general use computing is REQUIRED for any job. You can debate all you want but HR looks down on colleges where the applicant pool has not been the best and students are there to get jobs. It might sound insulting to you, but even if you are an art major the ability to type papers, use photoshop, safe browsing habits, and use excel (if you take any statistics, accounting, or finance classes) is a must. Infact every major from psychology, to business, to even teaching requires statistics and excel. Want to know how I learned to make great powerpoint presentations where you have 1 bullet with 3 sub bullets (no more more less), a basic slide rule as a template? It was from my biology professor. We had to make a presentation on our papers and he was nice enough to show us how to do it well as he stated "You all will be going through various career. However, each one will require you to make a presentation in any of them".
I did not have to take such a course as I showed them my resume doing IT work and they laughed and said ok. They make exceptions. But young 18 year olds take this as well as college survival 101 as many have the assumption since attendance is not taken that they can party all day and play games etc. Usually older professionals can get out of those.
Re:When I was in high school (Score:5, Insightful)
When I went back to grad school, I had a similar experience...I knew WAY more than my professor. I discussed the curriculum IN the class, which was in keeping with the type of class it was. We ended up changing 2/3 rds of the course that semester. I got an A, and the rest of the students benefited. Fortunately, the professor was interested in us all learning, not just doing the fastest and easiest job he could. (It was a night time class, all adults.) If it's in front of kids, or if the prof is trying to look good, you might want to speak with him privately, so he doesn't lose face. You can offer an outline of what he might want to add, like LibreOffice, or whatever. Be sure to also suggest materials he could use as text, or links to the program and information. If nothing else, it would be useful for the other students. If he decides against it, THEN write your letter AFTER the semester.
Re:When I was in high school (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, in my case I would have to disagree with your disagreement. I got a longish term contract over all the people with B.S. degrees simply because I had 8+ years experience doing what the job required. I didn't even bother getting a single certification, just have owned my own successful consulting business since late 1998-99. You would be surprised at how many places are more interested in actual results rather than a piece of paper that says you can regurgitate what your professors want to hear.
That said, if it was me against say someone with a B.S. or M.S. + 10+ years experience and lots of proven project leads ETC. it would be stupid to think they would not consider the other person first. Then again, maybe I would interview better or have better interpersonal skills honed since I own my own business too... HR looks at tons of things other than JUST "degree, yes - interview or degree, no - toss application".
Re:Get your head out of your ass (Score:2, Insightful)
You've quite obviously never dealt with someone who has never used a computer before. Even the example of the introduction to Office is too high a level for an introduction course. How to use a mouse, left-click and right-click, shift and caps-lock, clicking on buttons, pressing enter to begin a search, saving and loading, even just knowing where the cursor is. These are things that need to be taught in a computer introduction course. I'm serious.
Those examples were just a few of the things I've had to teach (all examples were taught to one employee in particular, but others have needed to be shown some of those separately) in a job that uses a computer for a lot of the work, but isn't the primary focus of the job. This is the world of the non-power user. They just don't know, and it takes them a lot longer to learn.
I've Taught It (Score:4, Insightful)
And OMG it's my single least favorite class to teach. Here's reason #1: even concentrating solely on MS products, with step-by-step instructions and illustrated UI tutorials, most of the class (associate's degree program at a community college) finds it basically impossible to follow along. Ask them a conceptual question on a test and they go semi-beserk. Ask them to compute a number of bytes in something as an exercise and they groan in despair. Give an assignment in Excel and the whole class copies the file from the one guy who figured it out (frequently not even changing his name).
The level of skill in a class like that is so low that you probably wouldn't believe it. Suggested starting point for your project -- Ask 3 random fellow students to show you their work for the next assignment. Having considered their output, ask yourself honestly if they will be capable of a higher level of abstraction with a different application and a different UI. Hint: These will be the same people who can't pass a rudimentary algebra course, because they can't wrap their head around "x" being an abstraction for a number (this being about half of all students in community colleges in the U.S.).
I've been told that the school I'm at will be simply dropping the course entirely at some point in the future, which I think is probably great because it's irredeemable. In any case, at least I don't teach it anymore which solves the #1 pain my ass in my teaching position in the last few years. Good riddance. There is absolutely, positively no way you can make any suggestion for change in the direction you suggest and have it be taken up.
Re:One thing you may find (Score:4, Insightful)
[Citation Needed]
That is not true in any of the 28 Community colleges I am associated with, so that is an entire state that says you are wrong.