Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
IOS OS X Operating Systems Windows Linux

Ask Slashdot: Mac To Linux Return Flow? 965

Posted by Soulskill
from the come-back-to-the-penguin's-loving-embrace dept.
jasnw writes "I'm one of apparently many people who moved to OS X from Linux in the early/mid 2000s for their desktop system, keeping Linux boxes around for the heavy lifting and server work. I may also be part of a large segment of that group now considering a return because of all the iOS-ification of OS X, despite the fact that the Linux desktop still falls short in the 'it just works' area. I'm angry enough at Apple, and wary enough of Linux, that I might just go to using Windows 7 for the desktop (not Win8, however). What is the feeling/experience of other 'traitors' who run OS X for the desktop and Linux for everything else?"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Ask Slashdot: Mac To Linux Return Flow?

Comments Filter:
  • by dyingtolive (1393037) <{brad.arnett} {at} {notforhire.org}> on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @06:51PM (#43165005)
    This thread will be good. I expect well-reasoned and rational comments from all sides, naturally.

    *Munches popcorn and waits*
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @06:52PM (#43165011)

    There is a livecd of each and every desktop available for linux. Try them, choose one, get things done.

  • MasterTroll (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @06:52PM (#43165017)

    Your trollcraft is strong, you named every OS, praising it whilst simultaneously deriding it. I give you 32 troll points for what will likely be highly polarized responses and self-sustaining conjecture and disagreement.

  • You and me both (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mwfischer (1919758) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @06:54PM (#43165031) Journal

    Linux is a great kernel. Linux has never had a good or stable GUI environment. Ever.

    OS X and iOS QA has gone to shit. They're toys from China that break a lot now.

    Windows 8 is a LSD trip. Windows 7 is the new Windows XP. However the Microsoft people will say Windows "next version" will be super better!!!! (since about Windows 3.11) like a broken record.

    What's wrong with paper again?

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      I have to admit, I really like Windows 7. I've tried various distros of *nix and they all left me in the cold when I realized that I had to hack a bunch of files to get my video/lan/wireless/modem working, and then pray like hell that what worked for one guy on a forum someplace would also work on my machine but never did. Windows 7 is the first version of Windows that I haven't felt like I needed to reinstall every 4-8 months just to keep it running stably with some snap. Hoping to eventually stick it on a
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by UnknowingFool (672806)
        Unless you have a touch monitor, don't bother with Win 8. To make it work with a regular non-touch desktop is a pain. Also unless you like rediscovering where MS put an option that was two clicks away, most people find this too much of a hassle.
      • Re:You and me both (Score:4, Informative)

        by garyebickford (222422) <gar37bic@NospaM.gmail.com> on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @10:58PM (#43167171)

        I haven't had to hack files to get video, wireless (wifi), wireless (cellular) or modems (do they still make those?) working since 2007, except I did have to download the proprietary NVidia driver to run OpenGL for Compiz. In 2007 my new laptop's ATI video card did need a bleeding edge open source driver, that was the last time.

    • Linux has never had a good or stable GUI environment. Ever.

      I beg to differ. GNOME 2.32 was about as close to perfect as a desktop has ever been achieved.

      (GNOME 3: you can still get the old UI back, but it's hidden as being a possibility. The 3.x Panel does work better with screen resolution changes (what games often do) since applets are snapped to left, center, or right instead of being freely placable (it's a good thing actually).)

  • Answer=FreeBSD (Score:3, Informative)

    by cyberspittle (519754) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @06:54PM (#43165037) Homepage
    You already have FreeBSD safe hardware. Linux is great, but FreeBSD would be easier for a Mac user. Personally, I would suggest Debian if you want Linux.
  • by spasm (79260) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @06:56PM (#43165061) Homepage

    I went linux -> mac in about 2004, and mac -> linux in 2009. Basically got sick of the extra hassle required to get stuff that runs out of the box on linux running on mac. eg a mysql/php/apache stack that actually matched all the linux servers I administered; qgis, grass gis, inkscape, scribus,.. And by 2009 linux-on-the-desktop was a lot more 'just works' than it was in 2004. In short, the extra time I spend getting my mint linux setup working as I want from fresh install to doing work is much shorter than the amount of time spent doing the same on osx. But that's just me - my particular software needs are dictated by the kind of academic work I do, and what you do with your computers may make your experience different.

  • by stefaanh (189270) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @06:59PM (#43165109)

    I just cannot figure out what this "question" is all about? You *apparently* *might* be part of a *possibly* large group of OS X people who *might* want to go using Windows?
    Well, I just might not feel like answering this. My experience is that this type of questions are apparently suggestive, and only meant to be so.

    • I like how he is concerned about, "iOS-ification" and then wants to use Windows which did what can only be described as a crappy version of iOS-ification in windows 8 while Apple has done little to OS X except cause ruffled feathers, mountains out of mole hills, noise at /.

  • since you asked... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tom (822) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:00PM (#43165115) Homepage Journal

    You can have my Mac when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. :-)

    I'm not going back. I'm exactly as you describe - my desktop runs OS X and my mobile devices run iOS, but my servers run Debian.

    Neither of which is going to change. Specifically, you would have to shoot me before I use Windows as my work environment. I'm happy that I can run a very similar environment on my OS X and Debian machines, which makes development just so much easier. I boot Win7 once a decade or so when I want to play a windows-only game, though mostly I pick games available for OS X (Guild Wars 2, League of Legends, yeah!). Every time I have to use windows for anything other than launching the game I want to play, I cringe. It's just so... words fail me. I don't understand why it's not considered a violation of human rights.

    You wanted emotions, there you got em. OS X is the best desktop I know. Debian Linux is the best server operating system I know. Windows is the best reason to shoot someone.

    • by Geeky (90998) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:21PM (#43165379)

      I just can't get that emotional about an OS. I ran Linux on the desktop from the late 90s until about 2006, when I started getting seriously into digital photography. I reached a point where I needed Photoshop and real colour management, which left me with the choice of Windows or Mac. I already had the PC hardware, so I went with Windows.

      Every now and then I look at the latest iMacs and think... maybe. When I really think about it, I just can't justify the price difference. Windows XP just worked for me. Windows 7 just worked. I'm now using 8, and it just works. I have WAMP to get a nice simple stack for web development, I use perl and imagemagick for some batch processing of files, but get to use Lightroom and Photoshop for the real work. If I wanted a real command line I'd stick cygwin on.

      The OS is just a launcher. OK, the metro start screen is a bit clunky, but most of the time I'm on the desktop with a few apps and a browser running. It makes absolutely no difference to me which OS I'm using at that point, as long as it runs the applications I need. Since Windows does it cheaper, I use Windows.

      • by Darinbob (1142669) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @09:18PM (#43166455)

        You get emotional when you have to work with the OS at a lower level than just launching applications. Ie, you need to write and run some scripts, or just type in commands. Windows is just painfully bad for having a text console; it's an ugly console with bad controls (as mentioned earlier, your normal highlight/copy/paste don't work well); it has a stupid command line processor as the default, and even the power user shell is verbose and non-standard. You can replace this by using Cygwin to get a much more sane Unix style, but it is slow and quirky and painful to integrate with existing Windows command utilities (such as \ versus / path delimiters).

        Now many users don't have to deal with this. My friend who only uses Windows also only uses an IDE and he fails to understand what my gripe is about even though he started his career with command line oriented operating systems. Most of the time it's no big deal to me; if I use Windows to browse the web, play games, and do taxes, I don't mind it that much and it feels little different from Linux or OS X. However when I start developing code and enter my command line frame of mind then Windows drives me crazy (I do not use an IDE); whereas Linux and OS X work very smoothly in comparison. (even when just playing games I find myself opening up a Cygwin bash shell just to copy some patch files around, unzipping files, etc).

        If the "applications you need" involve the command line, then Windows is annoying and will tempt the user to become emotional.

    • by swillden (191260)

      I'm not going back.

      I am. I gave the Mac a shot... two years. But I just can't adapt myself to it, and it won't adapt to me. There are various small problems, but the lack of a usable focus-follows-mouse is huge. Linux is just more comfortable.

    • by Darinbob (1142669) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @09:01PM (#43166331)

      OS X is pretty nice, and I was dubious when I started using it. I don't see any iOS-ification, except for the launchpad which is trivial to ignore, and the apple store which is even easier to ignore. On the other hand you get a full Unix shell and API to work with while still having your enterprise applications that tend to be required at the office. This is much better than when I had both a Linux laptop plus Windows desktop, and I had to keep switching back and forth regularly. Of course, you're stuck using it only on overpriced computers with features you don't need, but we can't have everything.

  • by guanxi (216397) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:00PM (#43165121)

    Disclaimer: This is a very speculative long shot ....

    But it used to be that differences between platforms in terms of end user control were a matter of degree. Now with commercial operating systems moving rapidly away from that, with more closed systems, restricted app stores, secure boot, locked devices, disregard for privacy, etc., Linux has a much larger opportunity to distinguish itself on that feature (as well as the security that goes with it).

    Don't wait for users to tell you they need it; that will be too late. Though privacy and control aren't so 'cool' now, I find it hard to believe that suddenly human beings will have permanently stopped caring about them. The pendulum could swing back, and if that happens you want Linux firmly associated with end user control and privacy in people's minds.

    Plus, Linux could educate them simply by presenting an alternative. Few end users understand the value of end user control and openness.

  • Just stop it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:00PM (#43165123)

    What you do with the tools is more important that the tools themselves.
     
    You gave us no real idea what you got going on with your computer aside from some comment made about "heavy lifting and server work." If you can use any of the platforms just decide on one. I have a boot camped rMBP that I use and I'm more than happy with it. I'm not exactly sure what the iOSification of OSX is suppose to mean but it sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
     
    BTW: My personal experience is that people who claim that they need a machine for "heavy lifting" just don't know how to make a reasonable computer do what they need it to do. Unless you're talking storage and if you're really using a full functioning computer for storage then you're just lost right out of the gate.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:02PM (#43165141)

    You're leaving the Mac platform because you don't like the direction that platform seems to be headed, right? That's certainly an okay reason to try your luck elsewhere.

    But you've already indicated with your "not Win8" comment that you ALSO don't like where the Windows platform is headed.

    Windows 7 may be further from the hated future of the Windows OS than the current Mac OS is from the hated future of the Mac OS, and so Win7 may seem nicer for a while because of that. But in less than a decade Win7 will be orphaned for security updates and you're going to have to jump ship again to an OS you don't hate, and the only OS it looks like you're going to want to consider at that point is Linux.

    It's time to dive into Linux and start learning what you like and how to make it work for you. Better now while you've got some lead time than in a few years when it becomes an emergency.

  • by gnoshi (314933) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:02PM (#43165149)

    I have used both Linux and Windows pretty extensively for my desktop system, and for servers (not always my choice). I love using Linux servers (specifically CentOS) - they perform well for the tasks I use them for, and they are rock solid.

    I miss Linux on my Macbook Air probably about as often as I miss having Windows on my Macbook Air. There are plenty of things I don't like about Apple: expensive hardware often lagging on the performance-features front (e.g. USB3 took a while), their 'our way or get lost' approach, how truly awful Finder is (and it is truly awful), and all of the bollocks about 'It just works' (it mostly works). However, I can use the apps I need on it (e.g. Photoshop: and no, Gimp is not a replacement; MS Office: and no, OpenOffice is not a replacement). The touchpad functionality is brilliant (multi-touch, swiping, etc). Menu bars always at the top of the screen is genius, as it turns out. I don't need to deal with installing GTK+, QT, etc etc - although this is mainly just an artifact of the packaging system.

    So in essence, I don't feel like a traitor. I feel like I'm using different OSs for different things based on their match to my needs. Mind you, I revisit Linux fairly regularly to check on how it is going as a desktop OS (and was one of the weird folk who didn't mind Gnome 3), and it is certainly getting better, but I always wind up back on OSX (or Windows, prior to that).

    If I stop being able to install apps without the app store, or they all need to be digitally signed and approved by Apple, then you'll see me switching to something else faster than you can blink, but that's a ways off yet.

  • iOSification? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kenshin (43036) <kenshin@l u n arworks.ca> on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:03PM (#43165153) Homepage

    The "iOSification" of OS X is overblown hyperbole at the moment. Yes, Apple's simplified some of the core apps like iPhoto. Yes, Apple's made the Calendar app fugly. They added the "Launchpad", which you never have to actually see unless you invoke it, and they added the Gatekeeper security feature, which you can switch off with a few clicks of the mouse.

    They also recently got rid of the guy who was responsible for some of that stuff, so we may see a roll back on the nasty skeumorphic nonsense.

    The core OS, and its UX in general, are still excellent, and every single app distributed outside of the App Store still have as much freedom as they used to.

  • by NemoinSpace (1118137) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:06PM (#43165205) Homepage Journal
    You're too smart for OS X. You're not geeky enough for Linux. Windows is just right for you. Be smart enough to ignore the lunkheads that can't figure out how to 7ize windows 8. It will make upgrading to Windows 9 that much easier. You can only hope that Microsoft doesn't totally screw up their cloud initiative. They've had plenty of time to learn from others, and they should be ready to roll. Office 365 is actually not as bad as I thought it would be. p.s. keep your old Linux box plugged in just in case. You will need it sooner or later.
  • by Midnight_Falcon (2432802) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:21PM (#43165375)

    Brief background: I've been using Linux since Slackware '96, with kernel version 1.0.0. I prefer using Linux for servers, but often have used Windows in cases where it presents some advantage (like using Active Directory so I can govern Windows desktops, etc)., and most environments I've worked in have become mixed Linux/Windows environments. Still, I am known much moreso for my *nix talents and content to leave Windows to the armies of Windows sysadmins out there.

    For a while now at work, I've been using Windows 7. Using KiTTY (or PuTTY) I can generally work well with unix systems, and the Windows system gives me an environment like a normal user, which helps in reproducing issues, etc. The downside is, well, it's still Windows and prone to quirky issues, e.g. problems caused by Windows update, wanting to reboot more often than I'd like..

    At home, I use Mac OS X rather than Windows 7. I run a custom-built hackintosh pro system (built late last year, i7-ivy bridge type). Using Mac OS X, I can still interact with systems I need to (using CoRD for Windows Remote Desktop), and it runs all the other programs I need elegantly. It also doesn't need reboots very often and is quite a stable system.

    However, I too have been looking for a solution now that Apple is moving in the iOS-y direction for OS X, in terms of a system that lets me keep the awesome BSD power of Mac OS without being confined to Apple's walled garden of App Store restrictions etc.

    Linux doesn't work as a Desktop environment for me for a lot of reasons, despite the fact I love Linux. It requires too much overhead to install software (packages, dependencies, etc), often doesn't run software I need (and/or open source equivalents fail to install on my distro, etc etc), and the end-user experience in X windows is generally clunky and not nearly as elegant/streamlined as Mac or Windows. A lot of open source products that do work are second-best to the product you could use on a desktop -- e.g. Microsoft Word on Mac and Windows vs OpenOffice on Linux. It'll work most of the time, but sometimes, it'll be a problem. I'm not a one man team and I work with people using Windows and Mac -- so I have to accomodate. In order to work in Linux, I'd have to have a VM running Windows or Mac -- and that kind of defeats the purpose of Linux.

    So, in short, I am searching for an operating system that has the nice interface and POSIX-compliant backend of Mac OS, the openness of Linux, and runs all the software Windows can. Will a solution ever exist? :)

  • Apple Anger (Score:3, Insightful)

    by PopeRatzo (965947) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:21PM (#43165397) Homepage Journal

    Hold fast to your Apple anger. It is liberating.

    I divested myself of Apple shares in early 2012 to finance my daughter's education, and now I'm comfortable wishing ruin upon them without fear.

    The choices they make are anti-consumer, anti-competitive and anti-free market. It pleases me that they've lost nearly 1/2 of their value.

    As someone who was a great fan of Apple computers going back to before the first Macintosh, I find their current direction extremely disappointing and destructive.

  • by HangingChad (677530) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:23PM (#43165413) Homepage

    I've used a Ubuntu desktop for years and make my living working online. I use it because it just works. Once I get my desktop setup right it stays that way.

    Maybe someone could explain what's not working so I know what I'm missing.

  • by emblemparade (774653) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @07:49PM (#43165663)

    My problem with these "just work" descriptions is that people have very different needs.

    I use both Ubuntu and Mac OS regularly. The things that I need to "just work" are a lot of programming tools (gcc, python), databases, and servery stuff like databases, web servers, etc. Getting those to work on Mac OS is unpleasant. MacPorts and Homebrew are both terrible in comparison to the APT world. "apt-get install apache2" is very much "just works" in my book. On the Mac, I'm fine as long as I use Xcode and other Apple-specific tools, but anything else ends up being frustrating.

    People complain a lot about desktop choices for Linux, but I never found any of them any worse than Mac, and some are better tailored for certain workstyles than others. All the major ones (GNOME with Shell or Unity, KDE, XFCE) are mature enough now for everyday work, even if they weren't so a few years ago. I really find all of them easier to work with than Mac's desktop. I don't like Mac's bubblegum dock, and I find the Finder to be perhaps the worst file manager ever made.

    Another aspect of "just work" is installation. Installing a free OS can be painful on some hardware (and trivial on others). Since you can't (easily) install Mac OS on non-Apple hardware, this problem doesn't exist there, so it indeed "just works" in this respect. If you want a "just works" experience with a free OS, just buy a machine from System 76, a truly wonderful company that has yet to disappoint me. Comes with Ubuntu and everything working, great hardware and great support. And for me, all the things that I want to "just work" indeed do.

    I use Windows 7, too, and it's fine, but I really need the Unix stuff to do my work.

    Can we retire the "just works" phrase, or at least find better ways to qualify it?

  • by thecombatwombat (571826) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @08:08PM (#43165865)
    I'm in pretty much exactly this situation. My livelihood is in Linux, and I've always had a Linux box or two at home, but I ditched Linux desktop around 2004 when I got my first Powerbook and thought I'd never look back. Forget "iOS-ification," boat loads of bugs in Lion and Mountain Lion made me flee back to a Linux desktop. I've been using Fedora 18 on a nice simple tower I built for just that purpose for about a month now and am really happy. My rather new rMBP will probably get loaded with it soon. I say try a Linux desktop, it's come a long way. I was impressed when even my wi-fi worked right out of the box. I can't think of anything that didn't, though my bluetooth mouse settings seem to sometimes forget themselves and the pointer goes back to default, unacceptable speed. We have Steam, Chrome(ium) and I bet even Netflix support soon. Also, the guys at Yorba are doing some cool modern apps in Shotwell and Geary. I really like GNOME 3, but of course there are plenty of current options if that's not your thing. If you've been happy on a Mac, you'd likely be just as happy or more with a modern Linux distro than with Win 7.
  • Been There (Score:5, Interesting)

    by organgtool (966989) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @08:35PM (#43166085)
    After the story about Miguel de Icaza switching to Mac OS X, it got me thinking about my own history of operating systems. While I had happily used OS X for six and a half years, over that period of time I have drifted back in favor of Linux. This had less to do with new features being offered in Linux as it did with growing tired of foibles in OS X. Here are a list of some of the bigger issues:

    - Beach Ball of Death (BBOD): While this didn't occur frequently, when it did it was more frustrating than a Blue Screen of Death (BSOD). At least you knew you were fucked when you saw the BSOD. With the BBOD, sometimes you would recover from it and other times you could wait for up to ten minutes before realizing that you're never coming back. During that period, you are completely unable to access the System menu or start another app to find the proc that is chewing resources so that it can be killed. In 2013, this is completely unacceptable from an OS.

    - Mouse Acceleration: There is no way to modify the acceleration curve in OS X, let alone disable acceleration. This is not a problem when you are using a trackpad since the acceleration curve is one of the best out of all OS'es for that, but it is incredibly frustrating when using a mouse. I have gone through many forums and found many other users complaining about this issue, but no one has come up with a decent solution for disabling mouse acceleration. For situations in which I am better off with a mouse, I always hopped over to a non-OS X machine.

    - Poor Multi-Monitor Support: Since the menu for each application is in a detached panel that is only displayed on one monitor, this means you will be racking up a lot of mileage on your pointing device to hop between apps on the secondary monitor and their menu on the primary monitor.

    - Updating Settings Behind Your Back: For me, this shit started with Microsoft and was one of the big reasons I left their OS. After an update, some of your settings would be changed to whatever they felt you should be using. Apple has since taken up this behavior, doing things like resetting all of your file associations to iTunes after one of their many updates. This didn't happen with my latest update, so maybe they stopped, or at least took a break from this behavior, but it has still left a very bad taste in my mouth.

    - Frequent Update Cycles: This would not be too bad of a thing if they didn't regularly remove features they didn't like (but you may have loved) as well as make changes that disrupt your workflow. At this point, I am an old curmudgeon who has everything exactly as he likes it. I don't want to upgrade and run the risk of having the upgrade go south. Such an issue would cause me to have to reinstall all of my apps from scratch and attempt to reconfigure tons of settings to get it to work like it did before the upgrade. And with the update frequent cycles, it won't be long before your current OS version is not supported. Once that happens, Chrome and Firefox support go out the window as well. And don't even get me started on how Apple stops supporting perfectly fine hardware when they come out with new versions of OS X. Apple: you control the hardware in your machines yet you can't be bothered to continue supporting it six years after it is released while Microsoft supported XP on an almost infinite number of hardware configurations for eight years and Linux even longer!

    There are many, many more reasons, but these are the biggest gripes. None of them on their own were dealbreakers, but over time they wore on me to the point of driving me back to Linux. While I still use my Mac for some commercial software that isn't available on Linux, it's Linux for everything else.
  • a parallel universe. I don't know what Linux distro you're using that you're having so much problems with your hardware, but I do know that I'm a happy Debian user for 8+ years. My family has 3 laptops and 2 desktops (built by me from parts bought at newegg.com) all running Debian Linux testing and one person has a mac laptop.

    I've got 30,000+ software packages available to me from Debian's repositories, all of them tested before I install them. I don't have to deal with downloading funky software packages from questionable websites. I just do a sudo apt-get install and I'm good to go. Debian was so stable that I decided to upgrade the software on my workstation every day with a sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade for 3 1/2 years without problems.

    I use KDE on my workstation an LXDE on my 7 year old laptop. Everything "just works" for me. Either I'm missing something or you folks must be using some really sucky Linux distro.

    Maybe it's the hardware. I always check to make sure the hardware works with vanilla Linux. Are you folks using hardware made straight from Redmond? Are you using those funky windows drivers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDISwrapper)? I wouldn't trust that steaming pile for anything. Don't ever use a windows driver on your Linux machine. That's just insane.

    If you've never heard of Debian Linux, do yourself a favor and check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Linux [wikipedia.org]

    Ubuntu Linux is based off Debian, except Ubuntu is about the bling, Debian is about the stability.

  • by spagthorpe (111133) on Wednesday March 13, 2013 @10:01PM (#43166783)

    I was a so-so Linux user, primarily using Windows for most of my tasks, and just sort of playing with Linux. I went to OSX for a laptop, and although didn't like it at first, and still have issues, I'm reasonably happy with it. New job though, and I'm in front of Mint Linux 100% during the day. I've found it surprisingly adept at just about everything I do for work (heavy embedded work, libre office, web, pdfs, etc)....enough so that I have a VM of it at home running 24x7 on my Windows machine, and use it quite a bit. In fact, I've scaled back the things I do on Win7 quite a bit, and with a few tweaks, think I could be happy running Mint full-time. It runs well enough as a VM that I'm inclined not to mess with it. I don't think I'd gain much from having it native, except the endless stream of background Windows updating that's always going on. I can't slam Win7 that bad though. It is rare as hell for me to need to reboot the machine, maybe once this year so far.

The only thing cheaper than hardware is talk.

Working...