Ask Slashdot: Becoming a Programmer At 40? 314
New submitter fjsalcedo writes "I've read many times, here at Slashdot and elsewhere, that programming, especially learning how to program professionally, is a matter for young people. That programmers after 35 or so begin to decline and even lose their jobs, or at least part of their wages. Well, my story is quite the contrary. I've never made it after undergraduate level in Computer Science because I had to begin working. I've always worked 24x4 in IT environments, but all that stopped abruptly one and a half years ago when I was diagnosed with a form of epilepsy and my neurologist forbade me from working shifts and, above all, nights. Fortunately enough, my company didn't fire me; instead they gave me the opportunity to learn and work as a web programmer. Since then, in less than a year, I've had to learn Java, JavaScript, JSTL, EL, JSP, regular expressions, Spring, Hibernate, SQL, etc. And, you know what? I did. I'm not an expert, of course, but I'm really interested in continuing to learn. Is my new-born career a dead end, or do I have a chance of becoming good at programming?"
Good for you! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm happy for you and your new career. Get ready for a nonstop list of reasons why you're doomed, but don't listen to them. If you love what you're doing, do it. Make your own success. Ageism is as bad as racism, and just as illegal.
That's sorta up to you; (Score:5, Insightful)
good for you (Score:5, Insightful)
Go for it. If you're willing to learn new things, then age should be no obstacle. Indeed, I suggest that even older people (in their 70s and 80s) learn programming, as by exercising the brain, you may prevent certain brain problems (like dementia).
You might not be able to work as many hours as young folk, but if you're willing to work, and to continually learn new tricks and ways of doing things, then I can't see it as a problem.
Anyone who says that you are too old is at best an idiot, but maybe someone who just wants to take your job. Don't let them, prove the bastards wrong.
You answered your own question (Score:5, Insightful)
Since then, in les than a year, I've had to learn Java, Javascript, JSTL, EL, JSP, regular expressions, Spring, Hibernate, SQL, etc. And, you know what? I did. I'm not an expert, of course, but I'm really interested in continuing to learn.
Go forth and prosper. Programming is not like professional sports or the ballet, where there are only a few hundred jobs nationwide to go around.
No. (Score:5, Insightful)
Even someone that is 70 can learn a new programming language and thrive. The only advantage the youngsters have is the ability to adsorb the information faster, they cant learn more, they cant do more.
Problem is you as an older person will not happily take abuse from management, thus you are less desirable than a young fresh out of college kid that will take epic levels of abuse and not complain.
To both question: Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Is my new-born career a dead end?
Yes. But your old career was a dead end. All our careers are dead ends. Life is a dead end. We all have to deal with it. You can give up, or enjoy what you have while you have it.
Do I have a chance of becoming good at programming?
Without knowing more about you, I'd say a slight chance. But I'd say the same for a fresh graduate from some top engineering school. Good programmers are a rare find. The best we can hope for is your maturity and experience leads you to spend more time considering edge cases and maintainability and less time trying to impress people with cleverness and flash.
you are a decent employee (Score:3, Insightful)
Your company sees you as worth investing some time/training in. That speaks well of you and of the company. If you didn't at least have some level of competency they would not have been interested in training you, but (and I'm totally guessing here) you apparently show up to work and make a contribution.
So yes, be a programmer! If you're really cool we'll make you a brogrammer.
You're fine if you don't want to leave (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the ageism seems to come with the hiring company. If you're at a company that's already supporting you, and it appears they are, then you're not going to have problems as long as you stay. Obstacles may only start to crop up if/when you want to move. Even then I think the horror stories are exaggerated - we've got programmers in their 40's or 50's here who were relatively new hires, but we're a smaller and perhaps nontraditional company. I think you ought to still have plenty of options, but you may struggle if you try to pick certain large and established firms with a reputation for ageism, including most of the gaming industry.
Best of luck to you! I'm actually still pushing back my plans to reinvent myself as a programmer (trying to get through kids before changing career paths) and I know I won't get to it before I'm 40. Despite the general negativity about my prospects, I don't expect that to stop me from eventually making the transition.
Re:Good for you! (Score:5, Insightful)
The submitter should be aware that career management in any IT role is essential in order to remain relevant. You have a decent employer by today's standards and with effort you have successfully moved into web development. If you are passionate about programming in the general sense and specifically web development including mobile application development, you stand a fair chance of riding this career transition into retirement. One thing you could do to improve the longer term prospects as a web developer is seek small outside contracts which can be worked outside regular business hours preferably from home. Above all you must actively manage your career rather than coasting along until the inevitable termination; it is rare anyone works 20 years for a private firm these days even if they love the organization...the organization won't always love you back. Best of fortune on the career as a web developer.
Re:That's sorta up to you; (Score:2, Insightful)
There is a paper about learning programming languages and why it is so hard to teach.
They found that you cannot really teach programming, and you cannot predict based on education or IQ if someone is able to program.
They have given people who have never done programming in their life before a test on how simple programs (sequential variable assignments) change the variables. The persons fell into two groups, people who are able to keep a consistent (not necessarily correct) memory model in their head and people who were inconsistent.
Then they gave both group lessons in programming at the end they gave the same test. The people who were consistent now gave correct answers, the people who were inconsistent still gave inconsistent answers.
There are also a few levels of abstraction in programming which are boundaries that certain people can cross and other won't:
1. Algebra (using variables).
2. Sequential programming (variable changing over time)
3. Functional and OO Programming especially polymorphism.
4. Temporal programming (variables which can be changed by two or more threads of execution, we are talking about being able to create your own concurrent access primitives and data structures, not just multithreaded programming).
Re:it's at a dead end (Score:5, Insightful)
Like there was any fundamental difference between hardware and software engineering.
Indeed. I do both hardware and software.
When I do software, I sit at my computer and type C.
When I do hardware, I sit at my computer and type verilog.
The main difference is that C code is executed in sequence, but with verilog it is all executed at the same time.
I expect to be replaced by a robot sometime around 2030.
Re:it's at a dead end (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, the guy should totally judge his employability by a theoretical programming robot that doesn't currently exist.
Re:Good for you! (Score:4, Insightful)
When your 40 and thinking about a new career track, you have already fallen off the latter and in the HR Imbeciles mind are fatally damage goods.
Or, they use things like the number of spelling and grammar mistakes in the resumes to help screen, and yours never seem to pass that mark.
Re:Good for you! (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that the first programmers weren't kids. It wasn't a case of 40 year old engineers who created a computer and then said "too bad none of us know how to program it".
Re:it's at a dead end (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference between a 20 year old coder and a 40 year old coder is usually 20 years of coding experience. That usually entails not doing silly things like pushing untested junk to production. Instead, it is pushing well-tested junk to production.
However, if this guy is just starting at 40, he may have more things in common with the 20 year old than the other 40 year old coders.
Re:Go for it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good for you! (Score:3, Insightful)
This is true. I've found a lot of people who are really interested in "getting into coding/computers/whatever". I then offer to teach them what they need to know. That weeds out 90% of them when their eyes glaze over after I try and teach them 'vi'. The rest of them get weeded out when they realize that the fact that they are 40, and that I am almost 40 doesn't mean that they get my job without the intervening 15-20 years of experience I have since I left college. You're like that guy they kept holding back in high school, without a high school degree, until they could get rid of him at age 21.
Being older doesn't make you a bad coder, but it doesn't keep you from being a new coder. Remember that shit job you took because you had no expenses other than college loans and a dive apartment you rented with some buddies? And where you ate Ramen noodles for three meals a day? You didn't mind being a peon because you had all that time to move up, and you were young enough to party to make it all better at the end of the week. That doesn't work when you have a wife and kids. You will look at that and most people hit the wall and decide to try their hand at farming at that point.
If you do get by that point, then if you are aggressive enough, intelligent enough, and you keep your grey hairs dyed on interview days, you will probably have a decent coding career.
Re:Good for you! (Score:4, Insightful)
Presumably, since his bug count was compared to other peoples' bug counts in their shared work place, the architecture and complexity were comparable, if not exactly the same. I concede that it is possible he was given a module to work on which might have lent itself to fewer bugs, but he also could have been given a more complex one. We just don't know.
Whatever the details were, he did show that a former accountant could excel in a new job because of the disciplined work methodology he honed in his years of carefully adding numbers and apply tax rules. This could give some qualified encouragement to older workers who are newly joining development teams.