Ask Slashdot: When Is It OK To Not Give Notice? 892
An anonymous reader writes "Here in the U.S., 'being professional' means giving at least two week's notice when leaving a job. Is this an outmoded notion? We've all heard stories about (or perhaps experienced) a quick escort to the parking lot upon giving the normal notice, and I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired. A generation ago, providing a lengthy notice was required to get a glowing reference, but these days does a reference hold water any more? Once you're reached the point where you know it's time to leave, under what circumstances would you just up and walk out or give only a short notice?"
Layoff... (Score:5, Interesting)
I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired
It depends on the size of the layoff; see: the WARN Act [dol.gov]. I was once given a paid 60 days absence before the actual layoff because they were shuttering the division. Gave me enough time to get another job, and get home from my first day of work to find a FedEx envelope with my final severance check.
That's how you downsize with class. Or, by being legal.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:5, Interesting)
When I call to get references for a potential employee, I either get "Bob is an ace. Absolute genius. We're gonna miss him totally!" or we get "Bob worked here between August 2010 and July 2013."
While the former may not be completely reliable as to how good Bob is, just getting the latter tends to raise questions.
Re:2(Wrong) != Right (Score:4, Interesting)
The rules change so quickly these days, sometimes it is nice to touch base and see what they are on a given day.
Two weeks notice is not treated the same way it was 30 years ago. Then, in most jobs it was pretty sacrosanct. It seemed to me that after 2000, companies were much more likely to let people go immediately without pay. I think it may be partially due to insurance liability if you are in any kind of sensative job.
Re:Layoffs have legal notice requirements (Score:4, Interesting)
Very true. What most people forget is that when you are laid off you are normally given a couple of weeks or more notice, just that the company doesn't normally expect (or want) you to show up for those two weeks.
About 10 years ago I was laid off from a large company after being given my termination date about a year in advance. If I stayed on for the whole year (to help ease the transition of my job to several sites overseas) then I would get a rather large bonus for staying on.
Of course the last couple of months I was there I was bored to death since my job was already transitioned and I was just sitting on my thumbs in case something unexpected came up and they needed to consult me. I spent my days surfing the web, and doing job searches. When I had job interviews I told my boss and he gave me the time off to go to those. By the time of my exit interview I had a new job and reported to it that job that afternoon. I was able to pocket all of my severance and bonus for staying on until the bitter end, but in retrospect I wish I would have taken a little time off since I didn't take any vacation the previous year.
Re:No notice, no reference (Score:2, Interesting)
"Bob is an ace. Absolute genius. We're gonna miss him totally!"
= bad employee, glad to get rid of him, desperate to end his unemployment compensation.
"Bob worked here between August 2010 and July 2013."
= we have a policy of not giving specific references because we are afraid of being sued for libel/slander.
references are useless.
If they're still courting bob, asking him to come back, perhaps with a raise, they will not be likely to give a glowing reference.
Relying on references is futile.
notice of intent to give notice? (Score:3, Interesting)
Does anyone have a good template for giving notice in such a way that if the employer immediately fires you, they can't say you "quit" in order to deny benefits?
Re:If you're entering any position where previous (Score:5, Interesting)
It's completely insane, and they missed out on getting a new COO because a decade ago the guy worked there & just gave a standard 2 weeks... And it wasn't discovered until they'd made the decision to hire him...
If neither party wishes to enforce that clause of the contract, and they both agree to ignore it, what would stop them from proceeding with the hire?
Absolutely nothing.
The fact is the company wished to enforce that clause more than they wanted to hire him. The contract did NOT force their hand, it was entirely their choice. Bottom line: the company your buddy works for is managed by idiots.
Places my wife has worked just have a blanket policy that they won't re-hire someone.
That's mostly a statement that:
"Look, if you leave, we're not your safety net while you look for a better job, we'll find someone else who is looking to stay with us."
This is fairly common, especially at, I'll call them less desirable "tier 2" employers that get used like safety nets by the employees. The employee gets a job, works for a while, finds a better job at a "tier 1" company, loses it a few months later, and then retreats back to their original employer. A few months later they do it again. And its not just one employee doing it, but a chunk of their work force.
In reality, the policy is selectively enforced. If they really want someone, they'll hire them, policy or no.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Burning bridges (Score:5, Interesting)
If you already have a new employer then why would it raise flags? They've already hired you and (probably) have no idea what sort of circumstances you plan to leave your old employer under unless you have informed them and that would be pretty dumb to do.
Sometimes bridges are worth burning. Not a good idea as a general practice I'll concur but if someone came to me and said I'll triple your salary, you'll work with nice people and you get to work 20 hours a week I'd consider burning a few bridges for that. I've also had the "pleasure" of working for a few real douchebags and those are bridges I wouldn't mind burning either.
1 If I'm the hiring person and you don't give your current employer notice then I'll assume that you are a snake and will do the same to me later, regardless of whether I would need knowledge transition at that point. You're talking a professional (knowledge) position here, right? 2 How sure are you that you won't ever want the old job as a reference? I've been surprised at how well some older references have worked for me.
Re:Surreal discussion (Score:2, Interesting)
In Norway, we have 3 months notice (both ways). By law. If you have worked for a long time (10+ years) at the same place, it's even more.
Not really, but it's very common. The legal requirements are:
Tryout period (max 6 months): 14 days
Default: 1 month
More than 5 years: 2 months
More than 10 years: 3 months
More than 10 years & age > 50: 4 months
More than 10 years & age > 55: 5 months
More than 10 years & age > 60: 6 months
In practice I've never had a job with shorter than 3 months though, but they all usually have the full tryout period first. If you've had someone on payroll for half a year you probably know if an employee is a keeper or not. And I don't think most Americans know what working 10+ years at the same company is...
PHBs in charge (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:2 week (Score:4, Interesting)
I am from Virginia. Not only is this news to me, but it's news directly contradictory to my personal experience.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:4, Interesting)
I hope your also teaching them _wrong_.
Re:notice of intent to give notice? (Score:4, Interesting)
A CC of your resignation notice to your personal email.
I can see them trying to say "but he sent that email out *after* I fired him".
The obvious retort is "so you let a terminated employee access his computer and email account *after* you fired him?"
"But he could have forged the email..."
Hopefully by then, common sense would prevail.
Re:Sometimes people don't show. Plan for it. (Score:4, Interesting)
There are much worse things you can do without breaking a single law.
Like scheduling surgery and a European vacation such that your unscheduled (from the company's point of view) paid medical leave and scheduled paid vacation butt up against one another so you miss six months of work? Bonus: get the wife pregnant three months before the surgery and take some paternity leave.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:4, Interesting)
I worked for a small company, reported to the CEO. I gave my two-weeks notice (per written company guidelines), and the CEO terminated me on the spot (basically to save paying medical benefits, I guess). Before I walked out that afternoon, I emailed a carefully worded letter to the CEO and HR, something with all the "in good faith" and "per written company guidelines" legal mumbo jumbo. No threats, just "I await your response." It read like I'd consulted an attorney.
Later, the HR director told me that the letter I'd sent had the CEO asking the HR director, "What do we do now?" Her response, "We? *You* pay him!" Which the company did, and I got two weeks paid vacation. A little later the CEO got canned. Karma, gotta love it.
Re:I've walked out with no notice... (Score:4, Interesting)
I was once called into a meeting and told directly to lie to my clients.
I politely explained I could not do that and watched my manager's face turn red as he raised his voice and insisted I would.
The next day I walked out. The company had already bounced a few paychecks so I felt there was no obligation on my part to offer a two week notice.
After I walked out, my (former) manager began calling my client list and started bad mouthing me for my "unprofessional" conduct.
I found this out because later that day I received several calls at home from clients asking me to keep them in mind when I landed my next job.
Two clients even offered me employment. Most of my clients followed me to the next company I went to work for.
Years later, my former manager found me at a trade show where he walked up and directed a few insults my way.
After he walked away someone else remarked, "What a douchebag!" I just smiled and changed the topic.
I've regretted a few choices I've made in my career, but I've never once regretted my decision to walk out.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
I take it you haven't worked in IT long - Or have only worked for one, fairly stable company? Because you seriously ask what possible incentive exists in that situation???
Your current employer has outsourced their entire engineering staff to somewhere 10k miles away that speaks a different language and has an entirely different work culture. Put bluntly, can you say "ca-CHING" when the contracting hours start rolling in? Not a "maybe", they will realize they need some of you back on an all-but-permanent basis.
Believe me when I tell you this counts as quite possibly one of the greatest career-advancing opportunities you might have in your entire working life. Don't fuck it up because it feels good to tell your boss off.
Flawed issue framing (Score:3, Interesting)
Being a good person is something that will always be good for you.
Demonstrably not true. And giving two weeks notice or not giving two weeks notice does not determine whether you are a good person or not. There are circumstances where not giving any notice is perfectly appropriate and justified. The reverse is sometimes true as well. If someone is treating me badly then I am going to leave. It's MY life and I'm not going to waste it trying to martyr myself proving how much better I am than someone I don't respect.
Being an asshole because you can not see any immediate ramifications of your poor decision does not make it a good one.
Cute (though false) way to frame the issue but first you need to prove that not giving two weeks notice somehow will prove to be a "poor decision". It might but since none of us can see the future with perfect clarity you're going to have a pretty hard case to make. Furthermore you'll have to prove how quitting immediately makes someone an "asshole". They might be one but that typically is established LONG before they leave their job.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Interesting)
Always be professional, Always give notice! (Score:5, Interesting)
When ever you can, do the professional thing and give the two (or more) weeks notice. It is always good to exceed expectations with employers. Go above and beyond what they expect or deserve. Always give proper notice, even when you don't want too.
I know it is tempting.. Man it would feel good to march down there and toss the resignation letter on the bosses desk and just say "So Long Sucker!" However, remember that this guy could be talking about you to some prospective employer in the future or you may run into him some other place. You may not know when or how, but it is *possible* his opinion of you may come around to haunt you. It's a small world. I had an issue with a past employer who got miffed it's not a good thing. I don't know how many jobs that cost me before I found out. Don't just hand somebody a reason to bad mouth you if you can help it because the world is pretty small sometimes.
I was laid off once, and I left my contact information with them. "Call me if you need anything I can help you with." They did call, multiple times. I helped them when I could. They didn't deserve it, having canned me, but I got good references out of being professional and helpful. Yea I was miffed at them for laying me off, but I was professional about it. In the end they realized that they had done the wrong thing and asked me to come back. (No, I didn't take the offer..) Proving that they made a mistake was WORTH the effort. I got lots of satisfaction in turning down their offer, but I still get glowing references from them... :)
Always keep it professional. Always leave on the best terms you can. Go out of your way if only to show them how a real professional acts. It may not pay off, but you never know when it might.
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Interesting)
Agreed. My last (large) company's hiring class was over 50% rehires (a group of 100). Despite how small-minded one manager may be, Having such a big company black-mark me would have been dangerous to my future. That company could be the best option for me one day in the future.
Or look at it like a psych experiment: Life after a 2-week notice is fascinating. You can say no to just about anything. "Fire me" can be used freely as a response (and they wouldn't dare pay you severance).
Re:Burning bridges (Score:4, Interesting)
And you will have employees refuse the training, the smart ones anyway. I refuse to allow my employer to put me in any sort of bondage. at-will employment means an employee can walk anytime they want, and the employer can toss them anytime they want. Attempts to put fetters on the employee for leaving is an attempt to circumvent the employee protections of at-will employment.
If I ever found myself working for a company that required me to stay because I received some training or suffer financial penalty, and then made that training mandatory to keep the job, I would resign on the spot.
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
That's only in countries where employee protection is nil, usually because the employees are "too smart" to be in a union or lobby for other job protection legislation.
In most other countries, if you give notice, you are paid for the notice period even if the company decides to walk you out the same day. If they refuse to pay for your notice period, you can bring an unjustified dismissal lawsuit against them as you can treat that as being "fired without cause" and actually get more than what you would've gotten had they just paid you out. (Courts don't generally look fondly on dismissing people who give notice, and often such dismissal comes with severance pay).
Of course, the interesting thing I suppose is how people in the US routinely allow themselves to get screwed over - especially in the IT field. Think about it - in every other profession other than IT, there's typically on-call pay if you have to carry the pager, potential compensation for overtime (yes, even if you're salaried, a lot of places do compensate for overtime) and many other rights and compensation that IT seems to have given up. And we call ourselves "smart" workers. Hell, I'm sure some of the unionized employees at McDonalds get far more rights than we get, only because "we're too smart" and "unions are for idiots" and we let our own labor rights get eroded "because we're better".
Re:When you don't want a reference (Score:5, Interesting)
Not a "maybe", they will realize they need some of you back on an all-but-permanent basis.
They may realize it, but that doesn't mean they'll admit it, because that would mean admitting management was wrong, and one of the cardinal rules of management is that Management Is Never Wrong. Employees may be wrong, customers may be wrong, suppliers may be wrong, but Management Is Never Wrong. How could they be wrong? They've studied Management! They know how to Manage Things!
And they will hold to this even as the company collapses, because in the age of the golden parachute, there's no incentive to do otherwise. The company may go bankrupt, but you can be damn sure they'll loot every remaining penny from it before the end. And then go on to an equivalent position at another company where they can do the same thing, because the managerial class looks after its own.
Not that I've ever actually seen this happen, of course. The above is completely speculative. Yep.
Never. (Score:1, Interesting)
That's rather rude.