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Ask Slashdot: Where Are the Complete Hosting Providers? 178

Posted by samzenpus
from the all-in-one dept.
Kludge writes "In 2000 there were thousands of email/web hosting businesses. In 2013 not much has changed. To get my email/web/webmail/domain/VOIP/public-key/XMPP/VPN hosting I have to deal with five different service providers. Where are the complete hosting providers? The absence of competition in this area drives many to Google, making data siphoning easy for the NSA. Why has hosting not advanced in the last 10 years? Where are the hosting providers that make end-to-end encrypted email/web/VOIP/XMPP easy and automatic for all my clients?"
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Ask Slashdot: Where Are the Complete Hosting Providers?

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  • Managed servers (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NormalVisual (565491) on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:16AM (#45256341)
    I think probably what's happening is that it's cost-prohibitive for a provider to train their staff to maintain all of the different packages that would be required to offer such a service, and a provider that offers VoIP generally has to have more quite a bit more infrastructure in place to offer any kind of reasonable service. The closest thing to what the submitter is asking for is probably a managed server provider, and there's no shortage of those out there, at varying quality/price points.
    • Re:Managed servers (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mysidia (191772) on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:32AM (#45256397)

      The closest thing to what the submitter is asking for is probably a managed server provider, and there's no shortage of those out there, at varying quality/price points.

      Yes..... I think the poster is asking Where's the place I can get all those things together in high quality at a commodity price?

      In other words.... Where can I purchase a car with all the amenities of the high end Rolls-Royce, for the price of a Civic?

      • Re:Managed servers (Score:4, Interesting)

        by girlintraining (1395911) on Monday October 28, 2013 @02:39AM (#45256543)

        In other words.... Where can I purchase a car with all the amenities of the high end Rolls-Royce, for the price of a Civic?

        You steal the Rolls-Royce. Hundreds of millions of computers right now are part of one kind of botnet or another because botnets offer everything the poster is looking for. There are websites out there where you can purchase the resources of the botnet for cheap; Just gotta know where to look. As a bonus, they also offer a degree of anonymity and resistance to the kind of tracking the author is apparently worried about. If you want to be resistant to a search and seizure by a government, I can think of few things better than a massively decentralized, worldwide network with millions of potential servers to shift your data around within.

      • by rvw (755107)

        In other words.... Where can I purchase a car with all the amenities of the high end Rolls-Royce, for the price of a Civic?

        At the Mercedes Benz dealer?

      • by sjames (1099)

        There is something to that. Pricing for complete hosting solutions is now so low at the low end that just answering the phone if the customer calls will make the account unprofitable FOR THE YEAR. The only way to make that work is to become huge and set up an impenetrable wall between the customer and anyone with any level of skill.

        They could charge by the hour for support but then they get endless whining and moaning claiming it was really a failure on their side that made the email password wrong so they

        • by mysidia (191772)

          The only way to make that work is to become huge and set up an impenetrable wall between the customer and anyone with any level of skill.

          Another method is to take the "Yahoo/Google" style approach; and restrict any phone support to billing matters only, with directions to use community forums. to discuss problems, and self-help tools.

          Or require an upgrade to a minimum of a $30/month plan, before "3 support incidents" are included, and an option will be available to call in support is made available.

          • by sjames (1099)

            The Yahoo/Google approach is a version of the impenetrable wall. There is no way to call them to get a person who can/will transfer you to a tech (unless you have upgraded). If a small operation tries it, a customer will (right or wrong) call the business number and attempt a combination of sweet talk, harassment, and legal threats to the receptionist to get connected to a tech.

  • Shameless plug. (Score:5, Informative)

    by philip.paradis (2580427) on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:17AM (#45256343)

    I'm a senior engineer at FireHost [firehost.com], and we can provide managed infrastructure and installation assistance for the things you've listed, complete with managed SSL VPN access for all your employees.

    Again, this is an admittedly shameless plug, but it does answer the question.

    • Replying to my own post for one bit of clarification: the VOIP and XMPP aspects may not qualify as completely managed services depending on what you have in mind, but there's nothing stopping you from operating them on otherwise managed infrastructure.

    • Re:Shameless plug. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:53AM (#45256459)
      The submitter implied Google was not suitable with the remark "making data siphoning easy for the NSA".

      How is FireHost significantly less vulnerable to the NSA when "The Letter" arrives? From what I see FireHost has significant infrastructure in USA, a CEO with US ties, many employees living in the USA.

      If the NSA is not a worry to the asker, then there are many solutions, FireHost possibly being one of them. If the NSA is an issue then it becomes trickier...
      • by gl4ss (559668)

        it's not.

        what the submitter would actually need would be a service that would make people encrypt the mail coming to him using his public key and that the private key wouldn't be anywhere except his system. which of course makes any totally hosted solutions frankly useless and I don't see how his host could force his contacts to encrypt by using his private key BEFORE they send the mail to the service provider.

      • The submitter implied Google was not suitable with the remark "making data siphoning easy for the NSA".

        How is FireHost significantly less vulnerable to the NSA when "The Letter" arrives? From what I see FireHost has significant infrastructure in USA, a CEO with US ties, many employees living in the USA.

        If the NSA is not a worry to the asker, then there are many solutions, FireHost possibly being one of them. If the NSA is an issue then it becomes trickier...

        Yeah, exactly. I'm not sure why this was modded

        • Re:Shameless plug. (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:53AM (#45257223)

          It's the FBI that shows up with the NSL in the US. In every other country the same thing happens. IOW, you're all fucking retards for thinking an offshore hosting provider is going to be any different.

  • Get a server. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:20AM (#45256351)

    Go to any one of many providers that offer general purpose computers, and get one, virtual or physical. Then go to what ever software provider provides the OS and packages you need and get that. Then combine their powers for a remote arbitrary computing system.

    Alan Turing came up with the great idea of a universal computer that could to what ever you need. Its a pretty good approach to this problem.

  • by toygeek (473120) on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:26AM (#45256371) Homepage Journal

    I don't. Few hosts have the brains and manpower to handle that many services at once. Pick the best for each one, and be glad that they're the best. Besides, if their data center is DDOS'd, you want all your services going down at once? Likely not.

    • Why would you host your critical infrastructure on any hosting provider that has only one datacenter? If your stuff can't go down, you need to have it designed to work in a distributed manner and hosted in more than one physical facility. This costs more money, though.

      • by Bronster (13157)

        Distributed fuckup very possible. Any one hosting provider can roll out a breaking change to their entire system, or have a handy single point of failure, or be 0wned on a central command host with acces to everything...

    • by lothos (10657)

      I don't. Few hosts have the brains and manpower to handle that many services at once. Pick the best for each one, and be glad that they're the best. Besides, if their data center is DDOS'd, you want all your services going down at once? Likely not.

      I came here to post this as well. I'd rather have redundant servers in different geographical locations.

  • Moar tin foil! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by girlintraining (1395911) on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:53AM (#45256461)

    ...making data siphoning easy for the NSA.

    I have gotten incredibly sick of the tin foil hat brigade putting the NSA into every one of their conspiracy theories, and equally tired of the idiot replacement editors from Dice rubber-stamping submissions like this that even most bloggers wouldn't post. You wanna talk about hosting providers? Okay, let's talk. Obviously you are concerned about your data being intercepted and stolen.

    Do you guys honestly think, for one second, that you can hide from these guys if they really want you? Any of you? This is the largest, most powerful government on the planet, with resources you could only dream of. Even businesses the size of Google can't keep them out; And if you believe any press releases to the contrary, you're an idiot.

    The only way you're keeping your data safe is in a physically secured facility, with the computer locked in a faraday cage and with no access to the internet. Just about anything else and the data will be vulnerable at some point to a legal intercept of it. You can manage those risks, limit them, but ultimately, if they want it they're gonna get it.

    So please guys, stop asking for NSA-proof [insert thing here]. There are only two defenses when your opponent has a half trillion dollar budget and you got twenty bucks and a cracker; Anonymity (ie, don't get on the radar), or don't do anything that would be interesting to them... or if you must, for the love of fuck, minimize your electronic footprint. Forget the credit card, the cell phone, the wifi-enabled anything. Go off grid, stand in the woods in the middle of nowhere, and then do whatever it is you're keen on doing without the government being aware of it.

    There are no high tech solutions to this that are within your budget, ok? Just... deal with it already guys.

    • Re:Moar tin foil! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by istartedi (132515) on Monday October 28, 2013 @02:48AM (#45256575) Journal

      Yep. When I was a kid nobody* had a computer. Then for a while people had computers but little or no connectivity. Then everybody had a computer and fast connectivity.

      During the sneakernet era you had computing ability, but if they wanted your data they'd have to get a warrant or ransack your office illegally.

      If keeping things away from the NSA is that important, go all 1980s on your selves. It really wasn't such a bad time for most of us. Swapping floppies in person was actually kind of fun. There were no government agents at swap meets.... that I know of, LOL.

      *The term "nobody" means no ordinary middle class household or small business. Yes, I know NASA and big companies had computers when I was a kid. "Nobody" is being used in the loose, colloquial sense here. The standard disclaimer about not inferring the ridiculous also applies. This includes casting a loose net over the definition of computer so as to include devices such as the abacus, or employees with "computer" as their job title and mocking me for implying that I'm older than written history. The standard disclaimer also applies to the text of the standard disclaimer.

      • Re:Moar tin foil! (Score:5, Interesting)

        by girlintraining (1395911) on Monday October 28, 2013 @02:58AM (#45256597)

        During the sneakernet era you had computing ability, but if they wanted your data they'd have to get a warrant or ransack your office illegally.

        Neither of which you'd necessarily be informed of. There's two ways to approach security; tamper-evident, and tamper-resistant. Everyone is focusing on tamper-resistant right now to deal with the NSA; "How do we stop them?" ... Have you noticed nobody is asking the question; How do we detect them? Sneakernet also had the benefit of being tamper-evident... if they broke down your door, you'd come home to a broken door. It'd be pretty obvious that something was up. Legal or illegal, when you physically search a property, you leave evidence behind that you did so. However, much of the technology the NSA is using doesn't leave any proverbial fingerprints behind.

        • Re:Moar tin foil! (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Xest (935314) on Monday October 28, 2013 @04:16AM (#45256819)

          You don't need to stop them, you just need to make their life too difficult for it to be worth chasing you when you've got nothing worth chasing for.

          The more people that do this the more it eats into NSA resources, if you force a real person into the loop to decide if you're worth chasing then you really cause a massively disproportionate impact on the NSA's resources compared to if you just let them farm your data automatically from unencrypted services they have a tap on like Google.

          Then eventually when things like the Boston bombings keep happening despite the NSA has a mass of financing from the US government behind it and taps on most the world someone in congress is finally going to have to ask "What the fuck is the point in all this expenditure?" and the plug is going to get pulled.

          If the NSA ends up chasing, expensively, because of the cost of intervention of human resources, people who are entirely irrelevant and innocent of everything, then eventually they're going to have to change tact. Eventually they're going to have to realise that universal snooping is ineffective and just makes it even harder to tell who really is and isn't a threat. They'll have to go back to what they should be doing in the first place - focusing on the hard work of identifying real actual threats rather than hoping a mass computer network will somehow figure that out for them, something the Boston case showed it absolutely can't.

    • by wvmarle (1070040)

      Do you guys honestly think, for one second, that you can hide from these guys if they really want you?

      (...)

      Just about anything else and the data will be vulnerable at some point to a legal intercept of it.

      .

      What the NSA is doing, is outside the scope of the judiciary. Whether legal or not I don't want to discuss here, they do not use the judiciary to get warrants and all the proper stuff.

      Yes if they REALLY target YOU, there is not much hiding going on. But face it, they don't really target many people specifically. They try to get as much data as they can get their hands on, and there are plenty of often simple ways for us to make it a lot harder and more expensive for them. There is no reason to not use thos

    • by Xest (935314)

      You're missing the point completely.

      No one here is paranoid about being explicitly targetted by the NSA and I think everyone agrees if they were then the NSA could get what they want.

      What people want to stop is arbitrary interception of their data as part of some dragnet operation that human eyes do not explicitly see unless it's flagged up as part of some data mining algorithm.

      If the NSA were really after me I could care less, they'd get what they wanted. They're not, but that doesn't mean I want them swee

    • by NoMaster (142776)

      ... and equally tired of the idiot replacement editors from Dice rubber-stamping submissions like this that even most bloggers wouldn't post.

      Now that's just not fair.

      Slashdot's 'editors' were crap and happily rubber-stamped stupid submissions like this well before Dice took over...

    • Why do you make such a fuss about this? Just don't read those comments if you're fed up with them. I assume you don't read Slashdot at -1 and rail against every troll that exists down there, especially since some of them have been repeating for years. So why do it with NSA comments?

      It's not harmful to discuss ways to limit the NSA's reach, and it's actually good to keep the outrage alive. The worst thing for democracy is what you propose. Saying "yadda yadda, here's the solution, move on" hides the proble

    • Re:Moar tin foil! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Tom (822) on Monday October 28, 2013 @04:45AM (#45256901) Homepage Journal

      Do you guys honestly think, for one second, that you can hide from these guys if they really want you? Any of you?

      The qualifier is "if they really want you".

      You can't hide from the NSA unless you're a government entity yourself. If I were to head the Iran nuclear program, I'd give it a try.

      However, you can hide from the NSA dragnet, because it's not targetting you specifically.
      So if you use any of the big e-mail providers, you can be 100% certain that a backup copy of all your e-mails exists somewhere in an NSA database. But if you run your own mailserver, the mails that you exchange over encrypted channels with someone else who also does that have a chance of not being caught by the net, not because they couldn't, but because the world is huge and even the vast NSA resources are limited.

      The problem with the submitters concept is that as long as you roll your own, you can slip through the net (but never count on it, it's a probability like all things in IT security). But as soon as someone sets up a "secure hosting provider", he'll become a target. And the bigger it gets, the higher the chance that the NSA will expand some resources to penetrate it.

      So it's not a viable business concept, and thus it doesn't exist. Of course, someone will make the claims, because scam is always a viable business concept.

    • The NSA isn't the only threat. Bots, viruses, sniffers, wardriving script kiddies, there's a long list. The fact that email transmissions weren't routinely end-to-end encrypted from the start is completely ridiculous. People were sending credit card purchase info over email at one time, maybe still are. No doubt the reason encryption wasn't used is companies like Google couldn't use it for targeted advertising. So yes, even if the NSA can get the info no matter what, there's less-powerful entities it c
    • I have gotten incredibly sick of the tin foil hat brigade putting the NSA into every one of their conspiracy theories

      If at this point, you still believe the NSA collecting private data is tin foil hat territory, I'm not sure exactly how to proceed. However, I'll assume you didn't actually mean that for purposes of the rest of the post.

      Obviously you are concerned about your data being intercepted and stolen. Do you guys honestly think, for one second, that you can hide from these guys if they really want you?

      OK, this statement really points that you aren't involved in information security (at least in a serious capacity anyway). Do you really guarantee you can hide from Anonymous or even script kiddies 100% of the time if they really want you? If you answer yes, then again we know you aren't

      • OK, this statement really points that you aren't involved in information security (at least in a serious capacity anyway).

        And we're off to a brilliant start here with a classic ad hominid abuse [wikipedia.org] fallacy. Or as it's known in IT circles... The Handwave. Not that it matters, but I worked for a fortune 50 company in systems administration; My job role included maintenance of workstations and ATMs at over 3,700 retail locations throughout North America. But again; you're attacking the messenger, not the message. Not cool.

        Do you really guarantee you can hide from Anonymous or even script kiddies 100% of the time if they really want you?

        Number two burning up the charts is a Nirvana fallacy [wikipedia.org]. Brilliant. No, nobody can guarantee 100%. But I can be pre

    • The point of the question was not to find an "NSA-proof" (as you said) hosting provider. The question should have asked for a provider that is not on the PRISM list, a provider that does not funnel data to the NSA by default.

    • by guruevi (827432)

      The NSA isn't all that bright. First of all, even if they intercept your traffic, most likely they won't know what to do with it other than store it. They don't have the analysis capabilities they would like. Most if not all crime is not found by NSA wiretaps but by low-tech feet-on-the-ground agents that figure out 'old-school': Follow the money and then wait until the criminal does something stupid.

      Second, simply encryption beats their schemes. Off course if you use a signed certificate from a public pro

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 28, 2013 @02:06AM (#45256487)

    Anyone who believes that "Not much has changed" in webhosting the past 13 years is not paying attention. There has been *massive* consolidation and times are so rough for the small providers that we've gotten real good at having multiple legs to stand on.

    Where I work, we now provide a number of different services as the age-old web+email+etc stuff is rapidly going the way of the dodo. Most people who want "the full package" also tend to have very specific needs and are better served with a VPS or dedicated server and even this market is strongly consolidating.

  • ...that only using Google will make it easier for the NSA to track you. You do realize that EVEN if you are using SIPs with ZRTP on a pure VoIP call, there will always be some sort of meta-data that can potentially be tracked by the NSA or other domestic or foreign intelligence agencies. And if you wish to call to the PSTN, well, you can forget it, because then you are sending your calls to yet another centralized point of transit (VoIP to PSTN), and you can be easily tracked there too.
    • And then there's the NSA Fox Acid system by which they purchase exploits from the black market, automatically attach payloads, then deploy them via skiddies reading a flow-chart to determine intelligence cost/benefit analysis; No amount of constitutional rights or encryption will prevent infection from our "cyber army" and its Ferret Cannon: Metasploit + unlimited funds + black-market 0-day exploits + wanna be hackers.

      It's basically the ultimate computer nerd version of the school yard bully. Big, brainles

  • My feeling is that the NSA will study your email no matter what service you use. Being that they are a very well funded spy agency with some high dollar talent you can bet they crack into just about everything they want to. With the recent revelations that NSA has broken into 35 different governments and studied their data for years that should tell us that they have a very strong cracking ability. After all, all of the governments that NSA penetrated had security services in place and probably set u

  • I'm not sure there's an issue here. There are ton of VPS providers out there that you can build anything you want on. Odds are, anyone who wants specialized services (or the broad range of services) you do needs to build his own server anyway, since you have to set up and config each service.

    I wanted something unusual - a news server delivering NNTP - plus some other stuff. I got it at http://www.rockvps.com/ [rockvps.com]. They offered me a network address, a bunch of monthly bandwidth, and a bare FreeBSD server I c

    • not so sure about relaxing if you get an unmanaged VPS... if you have an unmanaged VPS you automatically also have a full-time job trying to keep it secure.

      I used to be a sysadmin for a webhosting company in the 90s (when things were not nearly as hostile on the net as they are now), and I would not use a VPS nowadays unless it was for business reasons and therefore I had enough time to keep a very close eye on it, for personal/fun stuff where I don't want to spend my time security admining, shared hosting

  • by nimbius (983462) on Monday October 28, 2013 @05:12AM (#45256961) Homepage
    to break this down:
    email/web/webmail/domain/:dreamhost.com does all this, as do most hosting providers, already. shared, VPS and dedicated hosting packages have existed for a decade or more.

    VOIP: is available as an asterisk appliance or a product you can buy and have serviced locally. why? because 75% of VoIP is the network. where to place PBX's, gateways, and how they interface with things like fax and voicemail are all critical things that cant just be boxed up and sold off a website like wordpress.
    public-key: ssh-keygen i guess? do you mean SSL certificates? because thats covered by every major hosting provider. GoDaddy runs an authority, the rest just outsource it as part of their panel offerings.
    XMPP: Dreamhost.
    VPN: slashdot resurrects VPN as a feature of cryptography on the regular, and if you check some of the articles we're all greatly in favour of creating our own keys for this, salting them appropriately, and generally keeping pretty strict control over them. that having been said, if the idea of running your own open source router is a bit too much to handle there are probably 50 companies that will sell you a product like fortigate or juniper which are more than capable of VPN tunnels. outsource your 2-factor auth to yubikey.

    full disclosure: I was a dreamhost admin for a while. they offer great service and products, and generally resist any request for information without a warrant. they fought back against SOPA, continue to fight against PIPA and generally run a pretty tight ship.
    • by aaarrrgggh (9205)

      Then you are talking dreamboat plus a local appliance server for a full business, which is pretty good, as long as the business has a single fixed point of operation. What about people that start something up with where a teak, of five people never are in the same place. For small companies starting out this is often the case, as they might be moonlighting to get started or on the road chasing clients.

  • I don't think complete hosting providers are a very good idea at all. I can see doing web/email in one place but putting all of your eggs in one basket with a single provider is never a good idea. You trade convenience for a single point of failure and that is just no bueno.
  • Lot's of companies exist that do exactly that, but I think you're looking for a big nationwide (or worldwide) company. Look for local managed IT providers, lot's of them exist that do nearly all that you want (don't see many offering XMPP, as much as I would like it), heck in my small circle if IT friends, two of the guys own such companies. These guys exist to provide turnkey IT solutions to companies that don't have the abilities to do it themselves and I'll bet if you can drive enough business they wou
  • by jafiwam (310805) on Monday October 28, 2013 @07:25AM (#45257351) Homepage Journal

    "In 2000 there were thousands of email/web hosting businesses. In 2013 not much has changed. To get my email/web/webmail/domain/VOIP/public-key/XMPP/VPN hosting I have to deal with five different service providers. Where are the complete hosting providers? The absence of competition in this area drives many to Google, making data siphoning easy for the NSA. Why has hosting not advanced in the last 10 years? Where are the hosting providers that make end-to-end encrypted email/web/VOIP/XMPP easy and automatic for all my clients?"

    I'll tell ya where they are.

    They got out competed by companies that could afford good spam filtering. Hand holding the spam filter is a full time job for a small email host.

    Then, you get the idiots that jump ship for fifteen cents less per box per month, that drives the price down well below what it's worth doing unless the whole mess is completely automated. Or, the customers that said they would set it up themselves whine about how much work entering forty email addresses really is.

    And, as things got more sophisticated, now you have to host PHP full of security holes, be an expert at every goddamn widget in WordPress, teach the web tard that a fourteen meg background bitmap image won't be a good choice for his web page, and troubleshoot a borked database... all on three operating systems.

    Now, a small group "doing hosting" needs to have deep expertise in about 100 different subjects when they have time to learn five of them, and each "customer" will leave when they stumble upon one of those non expert areas. All the while not lifting a finger to help themselves.

    Oh, and the customers don't want to pay more than $5 per month for it.

    The days of sticking up a server, setting up an account and knowing the guy buying services knows what he is doing is LOOOONG gone. And, that in turn caused the market to collapse into the big players that can gain from having an expert in every subject around and still make a profit.

    I'll tell ya what the issue is, that your assumption that in TEN YEARS the industry didn't change drastically didn't set off alarm bells in your head when you typed it out for the summary. THAT's the problem. Thinking that in TEN YEARS the market won't change. In the COMPUTER industry no less.

  • They have homogenized the offering to a great exent. The packages are being dragged kicking and screaming away from the single box stack forget adding in anything besides web/email/database. Organic growth favors that single silo to start but then it's nearly impossible to move away from as you grow.

  • by jon3k (691256)
    If you need some very specific combination of applications and services (as you do) then you need to either combine several providers or just lease a dedicated server or co-locate your own hardware and run it yourself.
  • by gr8_phk (621180) on Monday October 28, 2013 @08:31AM (#45257771)

    Where are the hosting providers that make end-to-end encrypted email/web/VOIP/XMPP easy and automatic for all my clients?

    It is up to the user and the mail client to do the encryption. If your hosting provider plays any part in that they will need the keys and can therefore hand them over to others - or do decryption for others and keep the keys. Any way you look at it, end-to-end encryption requires that it be done AT THE END which means on your own machine.

  • If one host has a problem, you don't want everything you use to go down. That's why no host is stupid enough to attempt to offer every service to their customers. One outage of VPN is like whatever for one day. One outage of email, your website, parts of your domain, your VPN, and phones and you're leaving them for someone else.
  • five relatively small bills looks better than one large bill, even if the five small bills cost more in the long run.

  • "Where are the hosting providers that make end-to-end encrypted email/web/VOIP/XMPP easy and automatic for all my clients?"

    In Maryland... or Guantanamo Bay. Until you elect a government that decides privacy is legal.

  • To OP,

    I think you've got a great kernel of an idea in this question and I'm glad /. posted it up. Let's turn this into a high level RFP shall we?

    First a bit of background:

    I've stopped at every point along the spectrum of data ownership for my personal and business (it consulting (Known Element Enterprises) and mesh network non profit startup (Free Network Foundation) data:

    1) most (legally and maybe physically, but that's debatable) safe option of running compute/storage/network gear at my house (in Los Ange

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