Ask Slashdot: Finding a Job After Completing Computer Science Ph.D? 479
An anonymous reader writes I recently completed my PhD in computer science and hit the job market. I did not think I would have difficulty finding a job esp. with a PhD in computer science but I have had no luck so far in the four months I have been looking. Online resume submittals get no response and there is no way to contact anybody. When I do manage to get a technical interview, it is either 'not a good match' after I do the interviews or get rejected after an overly technical question like listing all the container classes in STL from the top of my head. I had worked as a C++ software developer before my PhD but in the past 6 years, software development landscape has changed quite a bit. What am I doing wrong? Has software development changed so much in the last 6 years I was in school or is my job hunting strategy completely wrong? (The PhD was on a very technical topic that has very little practical application and so working on it does not seem to count as experience.)
Read Slashdot (Score:3, Informative)
The site that teaches you to code well enough to get a job [slashdot.org]. Also, hide the PhD.
Re:Read Slashdot (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, hide the PhD.
As weird as it may sound, this may help. You write yourself:
get rejected after an overly technical question
Advertising a PhD may come across as advertising that you think you're good. You may not mean it that way, but it will most certainly be received like that. I've performed many technical interviews and when I prepare myself for a candidate, I go over their resume (their ad). If the candidate advertises knowledge of a specific topic, he or she better know it.
The rejections you got may not have been because you didn't know a specific answer to a very technical question. Nobody knows everything. You may have been rejected because of the answer that you gave, and let me explain.
When I interview, I will make sure there is one topic with a couple of questions that I don't expect you to know from the top of your head. I will get online and get the answers if needed. I will ask the question (if we get to it) and see the response. If you get the answer right: well done, you will have my vote. If you don't then this is where the psychology comes in. I'll be looking for you to be honest. Don't make up answers, don't come up with a bullshit reply. If I get bullshit, no matter how good you were, you will fail the interview. If you bullshit me, you'll bullshit a customer, manager or anyone else when you're in the hot seat.
Don't underestimate the importance of attitude and honesty in an interview.
Re:Read Slashdot (Score:4, Interesting)
What sabri says is so true about the way you answer questions. I have recently been involved in trying to hire a controls engineer and one of the more important things I do is look for someone to say I don't know. I introduce myself at the start of a phone interview and let people know I am a controls engineer and I work on our systems, i.e. I am a technical person, not an HR person who has a list of questions.
Then the interview starts. Every few questions, I hit the candidate with a very technical question. I have a list of about 40 questions that I doubt tere are many people who would know all of the answers off the top of their head. Usually something very specific to our system. I expect the person to not be able to answer the question unless they have very strong experience with the same kind of system as we have. The answer I am looking for is something like:
I haven't worked on that, but I am confident that I could learn how that works.
or
It has been a long time since working on that. I remember this *insert simple, short explanation*, but know that if I looked it up in this reference text or googled it, it would come back to me.
That would usually lead to a follow up question about something that they learned about to reinforce that they feel they could learn it.
I had several candidates attempt to make up an answer and snow me. A few follow up questions and they usually figure out I know about it and they can't snow me. Usually it is too late though. I will give them a couple of chances with very difficult questions like this, but if they don't figure it out quickly and figure out the be honest piece, no chance I want to hire them.
If they have an advanced degree and apply for the jobs I am looking to fill, they don't even get interviewed because I know we won't be able to meet their salary and/or they will look to leave too quickly and I am looking for longer term candidates. I don't want to hire and train every 2-3 years.
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Something I've come across in the past is something similar. It's not knowing the specific answer. Sometimes it's knowing what specific answer *they* want.
For example, "How can you change the IP on a current RHEL or CentOS box".
There are a bunch of right answers.
Re: Read Slashdot (Score:5, Interesting)
This is coming from someone who has been in IT for 20 years, very successfully, and has never taken any computer courses...
Get a freaking skill!!! The OP admits that the subject of the PhD is not applicable to really anything in the world. You might as well have spent 6 years of your life under a rock, because you are now the utmost expert at that tiny, inapplicable area.
Want cash and job security up the wahoo? Go pick up a CCNA book, and $500 of used Cisco gear on eBay. Get CCNA and a network admin job at a small, growing company who can't afford to pay you more than $50,000. Proceed to get your CCNP. Invest another $10,000 and two years and get CCIE. Go to "whatever the hell company you want" and make $120k+ and never worry about unemployment again.
Re: Read Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
second, follow your peers. where are all the other phds going? and what makes them qualified to go there?
I'm not surprised you're having poor luck in the general job market. the middle managers who are doing hiring will resent you for your intellect and success. this is why you get thrown the stupid questions like "name all the words in the dictionary from your head". they are tearing you down because they feel bad about where they are in their lives.
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Nope. If it's not in an area relevant to the kinds of jobs he's been applying for, that PhD might as well be in philosophy.
Nope.
The trouble is most people don't really understand what a PhD is. A PhD is a practical education on how to do research. This involves figuring out and understanding stuff that others have done up to and including the bleeding edge state of the art in an area you don't know much about then going on to figure out to do new stuff that no one has figured out before.
The way you get thi
Re: Read Slashdot (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Read Slashdot (Score:5, Informative)
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Re: Read Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
This is coming from someone who has been in IT for 20 years, very successfully, and has never taken any computer courses...
Get a freaking skill!!! The OP admits that the subject of the PhD is not applicable to really anything in the world. You might as well have spent 6 years of your life under a rock, because you are now the utmost expert at that tiny, inapplicable area.
Want cash and job security up the wahoo? Go pick up a CCNA book, and $500 of used Cisco gear on eBay. Get CCNA and a network admin job at a small, growing company who can't afford to pay you more than $50,000. Proceed to get your CCNP. Invest another $10,000 and two years and get CCIE. Go to "whatever the hell company you want" and make $120k+ and never worry about unemployment again.
+1. The key to long term success is being hardnosed about failures/setbacks/sub-optimal jobs, having long term focus, and putting yourself in a position where you can demonstrate your value and skills. But most of all, it is being pragmatic in the short term while being optimistic in the long term.
Having long term focus means picturing yourself on what you would consider a fulfilling job, and how exactly you see yourself and your job. Say, in 10 years. By focus, I mean take up a low paying job if necessary, as long as it is aligned to your long term goals. Good Example: Joining a company with a core focus on quality programming, but as a junior developer instead of a senior developer or lead or whatever else you might be expecting.
Bad Example: Joining the IT department (cost center) of say, a big manufacturing company. Might pay well in the short term, but will eventually be a dead-end for you.
Being hard-nosed means continue trying. Obviously, fine tuning or tweaking your strategy and where/how you are applying. By far, the easiest way to get into a company is through referrals. So can any of your buddies help you out? They get to make decent money through referral bonuses too. Also, is your location preference dragging you down? Again, in a long enough time-frame, say, 15 years from now, you will barely remember the extra 3 months (or 6 months or whatever) you put in during your initial struggling phase. So why bother getting demoralized by it now?
Lastly, don't get desperate to find a job. Your job and your company is as good as your boss. Use the interview process to figure out how much you like your future boss. If you boss isn't even interviewing you (rare, but happens), you probably don't want to work in that company to begin with.
And please remember - an extra 3-6 months of job hunting is way way better than making a mistake. Typically, from my experience, people take 2-3 years on average to fix a mistake (bad job, bad boss, bad company, bad growth opportunities).
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Nobody spends 10+ years as a researcher to become a cable guy. What a PhD confers is not just "Hey this guy is a specialist in this tiny obscure field", but "This guy is a researcher and has the stones to stick with it".
My advice is simple, work in research. Don't send your resumes to dime a dozen web coder or networking shops or whatever. Get them out to microsoft , google and the big research shops (Is Xerox parc still a thing?) And of course , to ALL the universities. Find more research. Now that you've
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In other words, if you're never going to tell someone you have it, what in the FUCK is the point in obtaining it.
The classic response for any college student facing dismal job prospects during a recession is to stay in school.
The only acceptable response is to drop out of college, join a startup, and make a few billion dollars. If you haven't done that, better hide the Ph.D degree.
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I've worked with a couple of applied math PhDs that were great at applied mathematics type things (LPs etc). They did see all the world as a nail, so to speak.
Fucking nightmares when they did database design.
PhDs are specialists. Don't let them tell you they now know how to 'learn anything, right to the bleeding edge'. That may or may not be true, and is not universally untrue about non-PhDs. They remain specialists.
Re:Read Slashdot (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, hide the PhD.
This is good advice. My experience is that PhDs are negatively correlated with "getting stuff done". My company has hired people in spite of their PhDs, but the PhD is a definite negative. I don't think that PhDs cause people to become ditherers and procrastinators, but rather that graduate schools tend to attract those kind of people. The submitter is a good example. You don't wait till you graduate to start looking for a job. You start when you are a freshman, by applying for internships, and getting work experience outside academia. More than half our new hires are ex-interns. We know what they can do, and they are already familiar and comfortable with our company culture.
Re: Read Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
How do you then explain the 6 year gap in your resume?
You could say that for the last six years you were a volunteer jihadi for ISIS. That would be bad, but it would cover the gap, and would not be as bad as admitting that you have a PhD.
Re: Read Slashdot (Score:4, Interesting)
I started to hate ________, and I didn't want to. I did __________ (unrelated thing) for a few years to recharge. I miss it, and have been working to catch up on the last six years.
That is my exact story. I've been doing IT for 30+ years, and there is a six year (yup) period when I sold cars. People SHOULD take time off, or risk burning out. I'd rather have someone who took time off, than someone that is on the verge of burning out.
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"Hide the PhD." How do you then explain the 6 year gap in your resume?
"Misc. contract work"
Interesting, how many contracts, for whom for how long, and can you provide a reference from one of those ?
Why did you quit contracting to go back to perm ?
Hint: Do NOT lie on CV / resume - at some point it _will_ come round and bite you in the arse. If not at interview then later, when it turns out you effectively lied to get the job, and hence can be immediately fired for it (even if they don't, you think that is helpful in your annual salary review ?).
overqualified (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:overqualified (Score:5, Funny)
There's the solution: Pose as a $1500/mo. Indian PhD. Practice the accent.
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Doesn't matter, had profits :-P
Re:overqualified (Score:4, Informative)
I read a similar story in the Microsoft CompTIA Security+ guidebook. Tthe guy outsourced his five remote jobs to people in China. He got caught when a security specialist for one company conducted an audit and noticed that the VPN token was logging in from China. Opps... He kissed five paychecks goodbye.
What an idiot. He should have had the subs loging in from a system in his home office. :)
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Has pricing gone up? A few years ago I bid on consulting work on Elance and noticed that there were indian tech firms offering masters/phd comp-sci staff for $500-1,000/month.
Re:overqualified (Score:5, Informative)
Sure, but half (or more) of the time, the Indian programmer doesn't actually have a real degree. We had this happen all the time when I was working for a consultant group. We'd get Indians who would claim to have a degree from Shrkekrlkajrthu University, but if anybody bothered to call good ol' SU, they had no record of them. Or, the Indian would pay SU $10k to give him a "degree" with no credits earned. Fraud. Lots and lots of fraud. Like, to the point where I had a database programmer working with me who didn't know what a join was. Shit you not.
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I don't think this is necessarily true. This might be true for a basic grunt developer job or IT support. But many companies hire PhDs, and having that degree is a major help in securing a senior level positions. The trick though is in finding those jobs that want education rather than just basic knowledge. It's also not necessary to put yourself out of the running merely because you have a PhD if you don't want to do PhD work, just don't emphasize it.
Consider that it's probably more likely to get a dev
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4 months is not that long to be honest. The job market sucks, do not believe the people who say the economy is booming and that anyone who wants a job can get one.
Anyone? No. You have to be good at something. You might need to relocate to where the jobs are. But the company I work for is hiring devs like crazy, and finding very few candidates looking, and I hear the same story from my friends at other big companies. The job market is good, guys, make yourself visible on LinkedIn (and, erm, that Dice site I guess) so that recruiters and hiring managers can find you!
Job market does not like PhDs (Score:2, Informative)
Unfortunately, many people in the workplace do not like PhDs. With a PhD you should look at the academic world and teach there
Re:Job market does not like PhDs (Score:4, Informative)
Exactly; even a master degree is shunned upon here. If you want to promote your PHD then the academic world is indeed for you, else, try to start low, you should be able to climb pretty fast.
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Re:Job market does not like PhDs (Score:5, Funny)
A non-tenured adjunct lecturer became President of the USA, so there's that, too.
Openings are rare, though.
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Nonsense. The pay for President is after you leave office.
Chelsea Clinton makes six figures for being Hillary Clinton and Web Hubbles's daughter.
Re:Job market does not like PhDs (Score:5, Insightful)
Any place that shuns someone with a masters degree is pretty sucky, I feel sorry for you. There are many companies that value people with education. Do you really think at the CTO and architect level that they prefer BA to BS, and BS to MS, and MS to PhD? Granted, fresh graduates don't get those jobs but people do work up to them. Not everyone is in the trenches forever doing coding that other people tell them to do, eventually there's someone in the company that has to actually know something, if the company is worth anything.
Re:Job market does not like PhDs (Score:5, Interesting)
Who you know and how you present yourself often counts more than just pure technical skill or degrees. You need a basic degree to get in the door most places, but BS, charm and ability to speak to others in a cohesive manner, along with general personal hygiene (amazing this still gets overlooked by some folks in tech????) will get you a long way.
Personally, I've never been all THAT good at any job in the IT field I've ever done, but I am able to present myself and stand up to at least a small audience and talk when required to.
Doing that, networking with folks, keeping in touch as they move to new jobs, etc....always is the fast track to get a job.
With you and school...start reaching back to your classmates and instructors and see who they know they can put you in contact with.
99% of the time, it is who you know, not so much what you know (unless it is brain surgery).
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or more pertinent to a PhD in particular is: what was your focus? A PhD isn't like a BS or even MS, it almost always reflects a near unique level of understanding something. What was it? What was your thesis? Why are you not working on that, in particular?
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If you have a Ph.D., you hopefully choice your research with care. If it is a theoretical topic, you should seek employment in academia or military. If it has practical applications, you should apply with a company that needs the fruits of your research or start your own company. You are convincing them to invest in your area of research: quite different from a MS in CS who looks for a menial job as a software engineer.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
To this point...if you have a PhD, you're not really qualified as a software engineer/developer anyways. You probably shouldn't be applying to vanilla programming jobs and you shouldn't be in interviews where someone asks you detailed coding questions.
Find a job where you can leverage your skills as a scientist, as a researcher, and as someone who can write proposals and lead others.
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Motivation notwithstanding, I would also suggest that you consider consulting.
I work in management consulting in one of the MBB firms, and we hire quite a few ADCs (Advanced Degree Candidates), particularly in the hard sciences.
The idea is that a PhD provides you with enough critical thinking and quantitative skills that would be extremely valuable in what you do. And you'd be surprised at the type of work that you'd get to do. As long as you have some semblance of social skills that can be cultivated and the ability to think quickly on your feet, you should be fine.
A good way to think about this is what happens when your senior client executive throws some numbers and asks you a question in the elevator -- can you quickly give an answer, and be professional and polite about it without becoming a nervous wreck?
Right now, I work with several PhDs and MDs in the healthcare payer/provider space, and their deep medical expertise is extremely valuable. We have similar profiles of folks with PhDs in mechanical/aeronautical/industrial engineering for industrial goods work, CS/EE PhDs in telecom/media/high-tech industry work and so on. You would be surprised at just how many PhDs, MDs, JDs, and the likes are hired by top tier consulting firms.
Despite what you may have heard of consulting on Slashdot and elsewhere, we do some pretty cool work. Yes, the hours aren't easy and you'll travel a lot, but consider it baptism by fire. In a span of two years, you would have worked on a wide array of projects and will have honed your hard and soft skills -- everything from building financial models to presenting to very senior executives.
And surprisingly, you will work with some very smart people. Yes, many of them may have MBAs, but just as many have other advanced degrees, and even the ones with MBAs also have pretty strong undergrad credentials (e.g., Harvard, MIT, Stanford), usually STEM.
So, whatever your motivations may have been, I will just say that consulting will teach you skills that are very hard to acquire elsewhere. It may be baptism by fire, but your value in the job market will grow by leaps and bounds.
Something to consider. :)
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Actually before I was in a PhD program I thought the research and academia was a good idea. Then actually being there I realized it just wasn't for me, so I quit without the degree. I'm just not cut out to be my own boss, and spending 3/4s of my time writing funding proposals felt infinitely worse than than anything in the corporate world. But then I had to start all over again in the job world, with a crappy job that seriously underpaid me, and then work my way to a job I like.
However if I actually had
List the STL? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
>technical question like listing all the container classes in STL from the top of my head
Do experienced devs even know this? I've programmed in several languages and I could never give a list of functions on demand. That's what reference material is for.
You honestly dodged a bullet with that one; any company that asks for such a thing has a damaged tech culture.
Re:List the STL? Seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm no so sure its a horrible question. I would as an the receiver be very speculative of the presenter, but as a presenter I would be looking for the type of brush off response I get not an actual answer. Does the candidate reference a particular book or does he say he would go to stack exchange. I normally hate programming questions on interviews because its not how we work. We engineer so we draw things out write out UML or some type of logic flow then get to coding.
I personally build little modules then add on higher functional work loads until I have a finished product, asking a user to drop down a random maze algorithm is naive and doesn't really do much, but ask if the candidate happens to have that brain teaser memorized. Instead I like to ask questions that give me an idea of how a user approaches problems that can't be solved immediately and I think asking questions you don't expect an answer to can sometimes help.
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We engineer so we draw things out write out UML or some type of logic flow then get to coding.
I personally build little modules then add on higher functional work loads until I have a finished product...
Son, you are adorable! So cute with your UML diagrams, logic flows, little modules, thinking, and all that. In the real world of startups and Minimum Viable Products, we just code whatever comes in our minds before dinner and ship it.
I wish to live in a world where this is funny, because right now it's a little too on point.
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There aren't many container classes.
vector, list, deque for sequential, and in C++11 forward_list (singly linked list for low-overhead situations) which only matches some container axioms.
map, set, and multi and unordered variants for associative.
array may or may not be considered a container.
valarray and bitset may be considered to be containers. bitset less so (no begin/end).
I could easily see missing some of the above, but when reminded saying "oh ya", and mentioning the technical features of it to show
Re:List the STL? Seriously? (Score:5, Interesting)
I was once was asked a similar kind of question about a library, and told them "I tend not to index them that way in my head. How about asking me what class or function I'd use to perform a particular task? That's how my head stores things."
They seemed to be satisfied with that response and proceeded to ask me "how to" code questions, which I readily answered.
List the STL? Seriously? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've conducted a lot of interviews (in an academic setting in the humanities), and I can say that it's risky guessing what exactly the interviewer is trying to accomplish with a question. Sometimes a question is asked neither to see if someone knows the answer to the question nor to see the content of the interviewee's answer, but to see how the person handles being asked such a question. I could see someone deliberately asking a question that he know the candidate not to know the answer to just for such a purpose, though personally I would avoid doing it as it's neither nice nor useful to stress out the interviewee even more (but I might do it in a mock interview preparing someone for a real interview).
So the interviewer might be interested to see if the interviewee honestly, humbly and politely says: "Would you like me to tell you the container classes I use the most? The others I have to look up when I need them", or if the person pretends to know the answer, or rudely bristles, or tries to weasel out of the question by changing the topic (of course it might be a bonus if the interviewee actually has a great memory and knows all the container classes; but then another question might need to be asked to gauge character).
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I could see someone deliberately asking a question that he know the candidate not to know the answer to just for such a purpose
My sister is an engineer, she called me after an interview and told me the interviewer was kind of new and got nervous because the engineers had given him a question that no one should be able to answer with out looking it up and she answered it. I don't remember what the question was it was about 20 years ago but it was just by luck it was something that interested her and she had done a bunch of extra research into. That was her first job after college.
Re:List the STL? Seriously? (Score:5, Informative)
They may actually be looking to see if you're willing to say "I don't know".
My response would be twofold.
1) "C++03, C++11, or C++14? The Standards committee added some in each iteration."
2) "To be honest, I probably can't name them all off the top of my head. I could look them up (for C++03) in my copy of the standard, or use Google to find them all. However, I generally find that vector, list, set and map tend to meet most of my needs. If I need something specialized, I'll look it up."
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A lot of jobs you run across some buffoon who thinks the trivia is important. Such as someone who has started worshipping at the altar of design patterns and expects everyone else to have read the same book and know the names of the patterns. Or who wants to know the N rules of effective X development from some popular book.
I haven't done C++ in 5 years, but um, list, vector, map. There may be some obscure things like deque maybe, but no one uses though. I felt STL was highly overrated and generated blo
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Technical questioning, even if often misused in the corporate world, is a fine art with many subtleties.
When I was in the Navy and giving qua
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Sexually Transmitted Libraries.
Actually, Standard Template Libraries. Your homework is to google it if you need more detail.
Use a headhunter and resume writer (Score:5, Insightful)
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don't bother with crapola like linkedIn
Seriously? I've heard several HR people from large companies say that nowadays they almost exclusively hire from linkedin.
Best to pretend you don't have the PhD... (Score:4, Insightful)
Look, the phd is not going to open very many doors in this industry. This is one of the most severe industries for devaluing advanced degrees and instead almost all value is placed on demonstrable experience.
So basically, as a PhD, you're just (in their eyes) an inexperienced programmer who has unrealistic salary fantasies.
The PhD may help you in academic circles, but in the IT industry, it just represents prime years spent on something that brings no value to the company wanting to hire you.
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This was my experience as well. I have lots of experience, but I decided to get a PhD both to scratch a personal itch and to maybe open some employment doors.
What I found was that it did open a few particular doors, including for my current job which I'm really enjoying.
However, the number of doors open, compared to if I'd just stopped at a Master's degree, is probably lower. Especially if you consider the years I was working on my PhD rather than keeping up with the latest buzzword-bingo skills.
I guess I
Prove your worth (Score:2)
Don't put PhD in the resume (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't put PhD in the resume (Score:4, Insightful)
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Ill second this statement.
I hide both my DSc and my PhD.
Re:Don't put PhD in the resume (Score:4, Interesting)
How do you address the "gaps in employment" problem that presents?
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How do you address the "gaps in employment" problem that presents?
Tell them that you were in jail for writing code to do high-frequency trades that was a bit too "ambitious". Even that's better than a PhD. Or put another way, that's even better than a PhD.
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I disagree. Rather than "hiding the PhD", I think the poster should be looking for jobs that "require" a PhD. There are plenty of them, they just don't have a large cross-section with standard "coder" positions.
You worked hard for the PhD, poster, use it!
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If he's spent the last 6 years getting it, and hasn't got other relevant experience in that time ... then the big giant gap in his resume will make him even less employable.
Because, when they ask WTF you've been doing the last 6 years, and you go, "err, ummm, I was getting the PhD which isn't on my resume" ... what do you think happens next? I doubt it's the one where he gets the job and everybody has a good laugh.
If you aren't going to fess up to it, why take it in the fi
ask your advisor (Score:5, Insightful)
Surely your advisor has links to industry? Where does the funding come from? Industrial consortia? Federal sources (NSF / DOE / etc). Can you look at doing a postdoc at a National Lab so you can make some contacts? If you don't, ask your advisor for help. It is the least he or she can do for you.
I don't think resume sites are good places for a newly minted PhD to look for work. You surely did some networking while you were a student. Did you present your research at some conferences? Those are the people you should be talking to about work, not filling out on-line applications. At the PhD level you find work based on a personal network, not web-based applications (although you will need to fill those out for compliance).
Leave the PhD off your CV for a couple of years. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not fair, but it's probably better to just list your master's for now.
Right now they figure you won't be happy with a junior position, but you don't have the experience from them to trust you with something more senior. Once you've got a bit of experience put the PhD back on. It will help you land more senior jobs later.
Why did you get a PhD? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm in a totally different field, but I just finished a PhD, and I'm currently in a two-year postdoc.
Why did you get a PhD? You said you already worked as a software developer before, so it's not like you went straight through school because you didn't know what else to do. You also said your thesis was on a technical topic without practical application, so it doesn't sound like you were aiming for a non-academic job.
What kind of job did you want when you started? An academic job, then changed your mind? If so, you will have to be very intentional about selling yourself to employers. Frame the PhD as giving you experience in how to do research. It's going to be the rare employer who actually cares about what you did specifically.
It sounds like you are just firing off online job applications. Have you networked? Does anyone from your department know folks in industry? Did you apply for postdoctoral positions, research fellowships, etc.? If you are just looking at standard development positions, you are probably going to be rejected as being overqualified.
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Coder? (Score:4, Insightful)
The question is, why are you looking for a common coding job? You need to spend a bit of money with one of the exclusive headhunters, who can find you positions with trading companies, NSA (don't snicker), and other places where an average coder could never do.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This.
The typical coding job is taking technology X to put database column Y into text box Z. I'm only an Infosystems B.S. and the industry bores me to tears. I couldn't imagine being a Ph.D.
Somewhere out there is an awesome job that I'm not even remotely qualified for, but that guy is. He needs to find it.
probably doing it wrong (Score:2)
Good luck.
A PhD is a Research Degree (Score:3)
With a theoretical PhD, if you're applying for non-research jobs, you're probably seen as overqualified and suited to the wrong mix of skills. If the years of study toward your PhD don't translate to a capability that the employer values, then they're likely to see it as irrelevant, and see you as having "The Wrong Stuff".
Try describing your PhD research in some way that's more relevant to the company you're applying to. If it's mathematical, describe it as "analytic" or "data intensive" and not "theoretic" or "provably valid". Data mining and machine learning and AI and big data are hot right now. Make your skills sexy.
And be sure to write a cover letter that's tailored to the job, the industry, and the employer. These days, mismatched or over-general applications get tossed almost immediately.
my thoughts: (Score:2)
1. If there are gaps in your skill s
Do you want to do research or be a programmer? (Score:3)
A Phd is a researching degree. If you want to use that degree, you should be making very targeted applications at companies that are looking to hire people in your subfield. You should not be applying to general developer positions, you should be applying to very specific jobs you specialize in.
If all you want is a job as a developer, then you're going to get interviewed like a developer. Don't hide your phd, but don't expect it to mean anything. A Phd isn't going to help you write a webpage, or develop a standard business or phone app. The things they need aren't addressed in a phd program. They need programmers. So they're going to test that you can actually program. They're going to treat you just like any other applicant, whatever degree they have. That means starting with the "is this guy a complete fraud" test.
I've gotta ask- why did you get the Phd? If you got it because you wanted to work on a specific field, work in it. If you got it because you wanted to call yourself doctor or you thought more degrees the better, you should have done some research before spending 6 years of your life on it.
well there's your problem... (Score:2)
So for 6 years, you've been working on something that has very little practical application. I think I've found your problem! Like others suggested, leave the PhD off of your CV. It will only hurt you unless you are looking to join academia.
PhD is not a coder ... (Score:2)
I don't think people are looking for someone with a PhD as a software developer. You're overskilled.
By the time you have a PhD, you're expected to be the guy in charge of developing cool new technology, or working in academia.
I've known one or two PhDs in comp-sci who worked in the private sector. And they've been responsible for creating and developing new technologies for a company ... and I think they'd gone back and gotten their PhD after having been there a while.
What kinds of jobs are you looking fo
Google? (Score:4, Insightful)
Talk to a recruiter (Score:3)
Here's the elephant in the toom: these questions are so subjective that people can't give a good answer without meeting you. Maybe you interview poorly. Maybe you don't speak clearly. Maybe you are disfigured and that intimidates people. Maybe you don't dress for the part. We can't tell from your question. I suspect those kinds of factors are the dominant factors here so you might be better off asking someone who interviewed you. That's where a recruiter comes in. They have experience sizing people up, and they know what positions are available and who is filling them.
Overall, I find Ph.D computer scientists tend to work in very specialized academic areas. Language development, artificial intelligence, and encryption come to mind. The same goes for mechanical and electrical engineers - they tend to have BS or MS degrees, and the Ph.Ds are specialized and get very high salaries but have a very small pool of positions. It would be a fascinating experiment to submit your resume without the Ph.D and see if you get a different response. If you do that, please post the results somewhere!
Re: (Score:2)
Along this line, make sure you have good dental hygiene. I've known good programmers who didn't.
was in your exact position.. (Score:3)
Target your job hunt based on your research/thesis (Score:2, Informative)
Target your job hunt towards what you researched for your PhD or leave it off. A generic development house just wants coders and your PhD probably hurts you.
If your PhD isn't in an area of practical interest, you need to figure out your pitch for how it is applicable.
My office values PhD's in certain areas and would have candidates do a presentation based on your research/thesis.
Network at conferences appropriate to your research?
are you sure there is no practical application (Score:5, Insightful)
You assert without proof that your research has no practical application. Were your researching how to implement LOGO in VAX assembly language or something?
More to the point, if your research was on the cutting edge of Computer Science I assure you it has practical applications. Use some of the research skills that you gained obtaining your PhD and put them to use identifying companies that have business or research interests in line with your own. Then, using LinkedIn or conference proceedings, identify researchers and engineers with interests similar to your own and contact them. Ask to set up informational interviews. See if they "know anyone" looking for new researchers. Build a network tirelessly until you have a job.
You have a PhD. You're not a programmer anymore. Accept it and don't look for programming jobs. Most organizations that are pushing the state-of-the-art have need for PhD-level people. Find them and find your niche.
Re: (Score:3)
As someone else who has done it, no. At least, not to someone else who has done it.
Well, you're describing what was the PDP/11 architecture ... and by that point, people knew it was something which came up often enough to want implemented in hardware. Because things like FORTRAN coul
Re: (Score:2)
Waited too long (Score:2)
So you spent all the time only going to school and not working on getting at least a low level job in the field to have a foot in the door and to gain experience? That was huge mistake #1.
Because it's not experience, by the very definition of e
Go to recruiters (Score:3)
A PhD is probably valuable to the right people. When you have the skills that make you worth talking to, the easiest place to go is a recruiter. They will at least get people to talk to you. And if you are getting interview practice, you'll learn what you have to do.
I suppose I'd also suggest putting together a Github. If you put up some Angular code or something else people seek, you'll at least get something.
Why the Hell did you get PhD? (Score:2)
No, seriously, why? I hope it's because there was a topic you're interested in. You didn't say, but it'd have to be an awfully bullshit topic to have no interest to anyone anywhere.
Obviously sending in resumes through the front door is a waste of time. Work your network.
If you just did a PhD to kill time, then you're just a C++ developer who's been out of work for six years. If your thesis had nothing to do with the job you're applying for then *FOR THEM* you're just a C++ developer who's been out of wo
You need to buy a clue but I'll give you a hint... (Score:2)
Has software development changed so much in the last 6 years I was in school or is my job hunting strategy completely wrong?
Hint: Great Recession.
Firstly, my condolences... (Score:3)
There's a sad lack of proper work for PhDs in our field. I'm in the same boat, but I am working now as a contractor.
Sure, people say that there is a glut on the market, but nobody notes that this is due to drastic cuts in research funding at all levels. Maybe that'll change and we there will be more research and academic positions.
As a practical matter, I disagree with leaving your PhD off your resume. You'll have a large gap to explain (what did you do in all those years) and it's not hard to find out that you do have a doctorate.
The best thing to do is explain that a PhD is one of the best examples that are you are self motivating, able to work on a problem diligently and independently, and that is valuable to any employer. Then, get out there and try to find a employer that gets that (in other words, is worth working for). That's hard, but that's what it'll have to be.
I'm seriously considering a hefty pay cut and trying to get a postdoc, because I do miss working on actual interesting problems. Don't discount this either.
You're applying for the wrong jobs. (Score:3)
Don't apply for a dev job. Assuming there was sufficient math in your PhD apply for a data science or data analyst role, which will include a fair share of programming but also mentally engaging work. Hiring managers for these roles look for people that have strong analytical skills and the ability to learn new things (proof: you have a PhD). What languages you know is secondary in these roles to how well you dig in to a problem and deliver insights.
Are you old? (Score:3)
That might be your problem.
I was there.... (Score:3)
I completed my PhD in EE/CS 4 years ago. Right after submission, I was unemployed for 6 months and during which time, I applied for 1000+ positions. Only on my 3rd interview, I was offered a junior dev position with minimum compensation in a SME.
Initially, things were good. I paid my bills and was doing many things I couldn't do as as a grad student i.e. going on holiday, fine dining, drinking binges. Work wise, I enjoyed the first year or so learning and coding new languages/platforms.
After a while, I woke up to the fact that my firm has deep problems in terms of work flow and project management. Almost 90% of the web projects we completed in last 3 years were failures. Perhaps I was too naive, I fed them back to the management and highlighted that the problem is with our SDLC and some incompetencies in mid-layer management and tech people. This did not rhyme well, I was kicked out from dev team and transferred to a different department; and my promotion was denied while every other fresh grad was promoted before me.
Overall my experience is, PhD can work against you. For a start, bosses are always intimidated with your superior intellectual brain and over the top communication skills (and don't forget, most bosses will be at your age too). Other aspect is, rest of your co-workers been there or has cut-teeth in corporate politics, so in an event of political power-struggle, quite literally you don't know what to do. Also most firms has no idea what to do with a PhD qualified human resource, let alone having a boss who can manage one. Lastly, not being mastered in some technologies (like Java) can be a disadvantage.
As of today, I'm feeling quite dejected and unappreciated at my firm. Lately I am looking for a new job (preferably something outside IT). I don't know what the future holds for me. As much as I regret taking up above position, on the hindsight, I landed on that position during recession years and helped me to sail through those critical years.
Re: (Score:3)
Good lord, just think about what you wrote there.
"For a start, bosses are always intimidated with your superior intellectual brain and over the top communication skills (and don't forget, most bosses will be at your age too). Other aspect is, rest of your co-workers been there or has cut-teeth in corporate politics, so in an event of political power-struggle, quite literally you don't know what to do. Also most firms has no idea what to do with a PhD qualified human resource..."
Repeating previous advice, network! (Score:3)
1 - Contact your university's career placement office. Get real chummy with them. Be very, very polite. they want you to get a good job, so you can afford to donate to the alumni associations.
2 - Contact your alumni associations, all of them. Get really, really chummy with them, until they realize you aren't donating any time soon. You want to go to events, meet fellow graduates that have been out there for a while and have opportunities, and you want them to remember you favorably.
3 - Find professional associations and get involved. Near first,then further away. Again, be real chummy, be a good guy, keep it simple, and admit you are looking for opportunities. NOT WORK. NOT A JOB. an OPPORTUNITY. New terminology.
4 - Find a job club in your area, possibly at the local Job Service or Employment Security office. You will be slumming with healthcare workers, salesmen, and laid-off union workers. They will teach you things you do not know, like how to actually write a resume, make an elevator speech, and interview.
5 - Above all, stay active, exercise, eat well, sleep. Keep yourself in shape, mentally and physically, to nail the next interview and hit the ground running.
Now, about that interview question. Me, I would have responded with "Wow, it's been a long time since freshman Computer Science, but let me see... I remember vector, pair, list, gee, I had to use valarray for a test, but it's been a while since I had to recite those. I've spent more time in {fill in your favorite high-level language here, unless it's VB6} for the past two years, but C is something like riding a bicycle. I don't remember every trick, but I can code whatever I need to, even if it means looking something up to jog my memory and get past a problem. What sort of C++ or C# work do you do here?"
Take the question, demonstrate familiarity with the subject, a partial answer with acknowledgment that you are not a walking encyclopedia, and then turn it around and ask about the apparent basis for the question - do they need a C++ guy, are they just scared you slept through that class, and can you both think on your feet and are interested in the requirements, how you will fit in, what's the real criteria here?
There are only three questions to be asked: Can you do the job? Will you do the job? And will you fit in?
Have ready answers to those.
Avoid submitting Resumes through the Web (Score:3)
I was unemployed for about 6 months at the beginning of the down-turn 3-4 years ago.
I submitted maybe 10 resumes a day through Dice/HotJobs, etc. I live in Silicon Valley and have 30+ years as a chip designer. I learned a few things through the process.
1) Submitting your resume seems pointless. I NEVER received a call from that process.
2) Use your network of friends. I finally DID get a call from someone I'd worked with 15 years before and received a 2 month contract position that got me back into the job market. I maintained these relationships/contacts through LinkedIn.
3) I had kept my resume unsearchable because I was technically "furloughed" and my original company was still paying my family health insurance. I didn't want to loose that. As soon as I had the contractor position I formally terminated my relationship with my previous employer and was free to advertise. I got two interviews and one job offer within about a week of making the resume searchable on Dice.
4) Use/abuse head-hunters.They know where the jobs are!
Steve
Military contractors (Score:3)
Time gap in CV (Score:2)
Re:Time gap in CV (Score:5, Funny)
Tell them you were in rehab for heroin addiction for those six years. It's more acceptable.
"12 days clean, praise Jesus!"
He's looking for a job in IT, not running for Mayor of Toronto.
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