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Ask Slashdot: Getting My Wife Back Into Programming After Long Maternity Leave? 250

Posted by Soulskill from the back-in-the-saddle dept.
An anonymous reader writes: My wife has been on a maternity leave for three years, now. She is starting to think about refreshing her coding skills and looking for a job. Before, she worked as a Java developer for around two years doing mostly Java Enterprise stuff. However, she is not very eager to go back to coding. I think she has the right mental skills to be a developer, but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general. On the other hand, it's relatively easier to find a job in IT than starting a new career.

We live in Spain, and with the current economic situation, the market for software developers is not great — but it's definitely better than other jobs. I there anything else she might do, ideally Java (but could be anything IT related) that would be easier and more fun than the typical Java Enterprise stuff, while also giving her a good change to find a decent job? (I'm a Java developer myself with many years of experience but mostly doing boring Java Enterprise stuff.)
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Ask Slashdot: Getting My Wife Back Into Programming After Long Maternity Leave? More

Ask Slashdot: Getting My Wife Back Into Programming After Long Maternity Leave?

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  • Why force her to do something she doesn't want to? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by krotscheck ( 132706 ) on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:29PM (#50026317) Homepage

    It feels like you're trying to push her into a career she doesn't really want to be in. If I was you, I'd respect her wishes and instead support her while she finds something she's passionate about.

    • Re: Why force her to do something she doesn't want (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Sometimes the reality of needing to eat and have housing supercede what people are passionate about. He's not asking for marital advice, he's asking for options hat she might enjoy more that will still put food on the table.

    • It feels like you're trying to push her into a career she doesn't really want to be in. If I was you, I'd respect her wishes and instead support her while she finds something she's passionate about.

      Let's be honest, writing enterprise Java is enough to kill anyone's passion. That stuff sucks your soul out until you make it to architect level (then you spend your time sucking other people's soul out).

      She should find a job that interests her more (while lets be honest, work is called work because it's not fun). Then, if that job happens to be embedded programming, she get a raspberry pi and work with it for a while. After a couple months she should be more than proficient enough to find a job in embedd

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • No, she doesn't. He specifically said:

        "but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general."

        So yes, it does look like he's trying to push her. Most women I know take a few months of maternity leave, not a few years, so maybe that is why he is pushing, but he's pushing her in the wrong direction.

    • The vast majority of people work because they need money, not because they're passionate about it.

      In general, finding a job with decent working conditions, reasonable colleagues and a moderate level of interest is the best you can hope for.

      There seems to be a lot of entitlement with people these days. Not only does the world not owe you a living, it absolutely doesn't owe you an interesting one.

      If you're living somewhere like Spain with high unemployment, you should be grateful for a half decent job

  • Project Management or Business Analyst (Score:5, Informative)

    by ranton ( 36917 ) on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:30PM (#50026329)

    Two great careers for software developers who don't really like writing software are project management and business analyst. Both are very necessary in almost any IT group, and having software development experience will be an asset in both. Analysts that can write SQL and fully understand object modeling are rare and valuable, as are project managers who understand the software development life cycle from the viewpoint of developers.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It sounds like the questioner's wife is doing business stuff at the moment, but Java is used in a lot of places. Mobile apps are the obvious one, but also for some embedded stuff.

    • Re:Project Management or Business Analyst (Score:4, Interesting)

      by swillden ( 191260 ) <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @01:33PM (#50026841) Journal

      +1

      Not to be sexist, but most women prefer jobs that include more interaction with people and less time spent in solo problem solving, so it's not terribly surprising that she does't love coding. This isn't to say there aren't women who really like coding, or even introverted women who find working with people all day to be unpleasant. There are all kinds... but on average my observation is that women prefer more human interaction.

      So, assuming that your wife falls into that category, there are lots of roles in and around software development that are more people-focused. Project management requires an additional set of skills, both people skills and management skills, but it's eminently learnable, and having a technical background is very valuable -- as long as it doesn't cause her to second-guess what the developers are telling her (always a risk with PMs, and even more with those whose technical background is shallower than they think it is. There's a tendency to assume that everything they don't know how to do is easy.)

      Business Analyst is another good one. It, again, requires some additional skills she probably doesn't have but can learn. Industry knowledge tends to be important, but most companies are okay with analysts learning that context on the job. She also needs to learn how to gather and document requirements. A technical background is useful there because good requirements need quite a bit more precision than most non-technical people are used to. There's also a risk; formerly-technical BAs have a tendency to overspecify. An important skill for this role which isn't so easy to learn is writing. Good BAs are excellent writers, able to concisely and accurately boil complex issues down to simple statements.

      Another option that might be excellent if she can swing it is Systems or Application Architect. Companies generally want experienced, senior developers to move into these roles, but smart but less-experienced people can do it as well. Architects take the business requirements and convert them into high-level technical plans/architectures. Architects tend to spend less time interacting with people than PMs or BAs, but still quite a bit since they provide the primary interface between the technical and business teams. Architects need to have good technical skills and good "taste", meaning a good feel for what sorts of structures are easy to build, easy to maintain and flexible, and for how to intelligently trade those issues off. They also need to be good at translating technical issues into language the business people can understand. Honestly I expect that your wife probably doesn't have the depth of experience needed to make a good architect, but I thought I'd throw it out.

      Another that might be good if she's a good writer and enjoys writing is technical writing. Good tech writers have greater need for writing skill than they do technical skill, but the latter is very valuable because it enables them to more quickly and accurately understand the information that needs to be documented.

      In smaller companies a lot of these roles get mixed and combined with other business roles, so another good option is to look for a position that isn't necessarily directly related to software development, but could benefit from having a deeply IT-literate person.

      Finally, the option that I've long thought I'd take if I ever got tired of writing code is the law. It's a lot of additional training, but I think there is a deep and growing need for attorneys who understand technology. This is especially true in the areas of patent and copyright law, but I think it applies in many areas. Of course, the law may not have any attraction whatsoever for your wife.

      Whatever, I'd really encourage her to take the time to figure out what she wants to do, and do that, rather than settling for something she doesn't really like. We so much of our lives working that it's really a waste to spend it doing something we don't like.

      • We so much of our lives working that it's really a waste to spend it doing something we don't like.

        Most people do not have the luxury of only (or mainly) doing things they really like.

        For example, the career opportunities for someone who enjoys drinking cheap booze, eating pizzas, listening to heavy metal and watching porn are somewhat limited. Not everyone can be a SysAdmin.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by laffer1 ( 701823 )

      QA is another option. I think it's the goto for people that are logical and don't actually enjoy writing software. Instead, they get to try to break it.

  • ....why go back to a job she has no passion for? There's a lot of tangential work that can be done, or maybe it's time for a navel gaze and something entirely new.

  • Pretty much exactly what my wife did (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:32PM (#50026355)

    My wife was out of the programming workforce for about twenty years, and worried that her FORTRAN skills were no longer needed :-)

    I encouraged her to take some Java classes, she liked it a lot, found an interesting job and several years later is loving it.

    The thing is, do the research to find an *interesting* job -- yeah, it may be just "Java Enterprise stuff", but if it's an interesting project, and something you believe in, with good people, it's worth doing. My wife's team is a crazy bunch, and she enjoys their interactions (and telling me the wild stories) a lot.

    She's been able to learn a lot of useful side technologies (XSLT, Databases, basic web stuff, etc.) so she'll be able to find a new job if the rumors of them moving the project she's on several hundred miles away pan out.

    Anyway, with you working, she doesn't have to settle for the "first available" job, look around a lot, interview a bunch (if nothing else, to hone interviewing skills).

    Good luck to you both!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by unimacs ( 597299 )

      My wife was out of the programming workforce for about twenty years, and worried that her FORTRAN skills were no longer needed :-)

      I encouraged her to take some Java classes, she liked it a lot, found an interesting job and several years later is loving it.

      The thing is, do the research to find an *interesting* job -- yeah, it may be just "Java Enterprise stuff", but if it's an interesting project, and something you believe in, with good people, it's worth doing. My wife's team is a crazy bunch, and she enjoys their interactions (and telling me the wild stories) a lot.

      She's been able to learn a lot of useful side technologies (XSLT, Databases, basic web stuff, etc.) so she'll be able to find a new job if the rumors of them moving the project she's on several hundred miles away pan out.

      Anyway, with you working, she doesn't have to settle for the "first available" job, look around a lot, interview a bunch (if nothing else, to hone interviewing skills).

      Good luck to you both!

      I agree that an approach like that can make a big difference. Coding on an interesting project is completely different than coding something you don't give a crap about. Being out of the game for 3 years makes it more difficult to be choosy like that but if she's not as concerned about a high salary, she could look to some smaller organizations or non-profits that need technical staff.

  • To answer your question (Score:3)

    by rfengr ( 910026 ) on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:32PM (#50026361)
    "but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general" I think you can answer it yourself.

    • I'm pretty sure there's people that work in jobs they aren't passionate about but do it to keep afloat.

      • I'm pretty sure there's people that work in jobs they aren't passionate about but do it to keep afloat.

        I would say over 90% of the workforce.

        Does anyone seriously think that people stack supermarket shelves, flip burgers, clean toilets or whatever because they really love it?

  • If you don't enjoy programming or technology, go find something else you are interested in. All the good programmers and IT people I've met have enjoyed what they do. The ones that don't are usually dragging down the rest of the team.

    • If you don't enjoy programming or technology, go find something else you are interested in. All the good programmers and IT people I've met have enjoyed what they do. The ones that don't are usually dragging down the rest of the team.

      There's a huge difference between enjoying what you do and it being something you're passionate about.

      Most people enjoy at least some of what they do for a job without being so interested that they would do it for no pay.

  • "Not eager" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mi ( 197448 ) <slashdot-2017q4@virtual-estates.net> on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:38PM (#50026419) Homepage Journal

    However, she is not very eager to go back to coding.

    I see another "poster girl" raising awareness of the "pay inequality" [aauw.org] in the making...

    • Well done, you managed to get in a misogynistic piece of crap without using the term SJW.
  • You said what she doesn't want to do, but gave no indication of what she wants to do. There may be a not-terribly-difficult way to get from programming to what she wants to do, but without knowing what that is it is impossible to say.

  • Manage Outsourcing (Score:3)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:43PM (#50026463) Homepage Journal

    You listed a bunch of strengths:
    1) she has J2EE experience
    2) she lives in Spain where the developer job market sucks
    3) she has the talent
    4) she'd like to move up to a better job

    So, how about she goes and finds un/under-employed local programmers, sets up a syndicate, and manages outsourcing jobs for enterprises in areas where the labor market is tight?

    That will gain her marketable sales and management skills which she can then parlay into better career opportunities. Maybe even sell the company once it's successful.

    I'm assuming she can speak English about as well as you can, which is plenty good (I can't tell if you're native or not).

    Here's the thing that bothers me most about your post, though: she's of child-bearing age, so I'll assume under 40, and you say doing IT is better than picking up a new career now. Don't fool yourself - she'll be working another 40 years (unless the AI's take over) and so she's less than 1/3rd of the way into her career. If you love her, you'll want her to be happy for the next 40 years, and you'll support her in finding/creating something that supports her passions and can pay the bills. So, if she really hates IT, ignore what I wrote above and work hard to help her find her purpose.

  • Don't do it (Score:4, Informative)

    by Brownstar ( 139242 ) on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:43PM (#50026465)

    First answer why does she want to go back to work? Is it because your family needs a second income, is it because she's bored at home and being a full time mother is not what she wants to do, something different, maybe she's looking for part time work. All of these are equally valid options, but before she decides to do something, she should understand why, to ensure that she's actually fulfilling those goals.

    Unless your family absolutely needs the extra money, and there is no option for any other employment why try to have her go into programming?

    She only had 2 years experience to begin with, so she's still an entry level developer. Basically that means going back to programming might as well be entering a new career as well.

    If she doesn't enjoy or want to be a developer it's more likely she's going to be very dissatisfied and not fulfilled.

    My suggestion would be to have her apply for a number of different types of jobs. Some that fulfill the reasons that she wants to go back into the work force that could be built into a career that she wants to be in, and maybe, developer positions as a last resort.

  • The traditional career forks for developers are the obvious options for someone with coding skills, but not coding desire. Someone often acts as an interface between the software developers and the users of that software. This is a path that allows her to use her old skills, develop new skills, and gives her an option to move into a more generic career later.

  • It has been my experience that many women enjoy and are actually better than men at UX design. The best books I have are authored by women and when I pass ideas or problems by others, women often bring better insights and ideas than men.

  • She's lucky to be able to jump back in! (Score:3)

    by ErichTheRed ( 39327 ) on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @12:54PM (#50026549)

    I guess things really are different in Europe with respect to employment. I understand Spain is having economic troubles now, but you are very lucky your wife has the choice. In the US, most women who take time off to take care of children are branded unemployable, and often treated worse than a non-mother with a long-term gap in their employment.

    It's a legitimate concern for my wife and I. She has a good job that pays well, but is very inflexible and involves a long commute. My oldest kid is going to be entering school next year, and the younger one is only 2 years behind that. I would love for her to have the choice to stay home and work a more flexible job or just take care of the kids. The problem is, once she pulls that trigger and decides to leave, getting comparable employment again is extremely hard. We could get by on one income, but frankly having the financial cushion allows us to actually save, and enjoy life at the same time. Without that second income, there would be some pretty deep cuts since we live in an expensive area and have other high fixed costs. So yes, we've definitely talked about it and are both coming to the same conclusion -- that leaving is a one-way choice and it would severely reduce our retirement savings, etc. Not that she won't eventually do it...the sad thing is that it's a permanent reduction in income.

    Whether she wants to go back to coding, or do something different, she should be happy she has this choice. If she doesn't like development, a systems analyst or PM would be a good choice. An analyst with half a clue on how some of the stuff she's specifying works is a huge plus.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jopsen ( 885607 )

      In the US, most women who take time off to take care of children are branded unemployable, and often treated worse than a non-mother with a long-term gap in their employment.

      It's a legitimate concern for my wife and I. She has a good job that pays well, but is very inflexible and involves a long commute...

      So she could look for a more flexible job with a shorter commute and work part time from home or something like that...

      Or you could be the stay at home dad and let your wife go to work... (it's an option, but I suspect you would fear for you career too)

  • the break isn't a big deal, the lack of passion is (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @01:00PM (#50026585)

    I got back into programming after a 7 year hiatus during which I went to law school and practiced law. I spent about 3 months writing apps to refresh my skills and then took the first job I got offered a few weeks after posting my resume. I am now back to senior developer status after 2 years, making good money. I was 8 years in to my career before I went back to school and I continued to do development work here and there (ie personal programming projects) while I was out of the industry.

    The big problem here is your wife's lack of passion. If someone doesn't want to code, you're fighting a losing battle. It takes at least 5-6 years of intensive development experience before you start becoming genuinely good at coding. You need to see lots of problems and solve them. You need to fuck up at least a few times and learn from your mistakes. You need to overengineer something by accident at least once and learn from your wasted effort. You need to overcommit to a project and burn out. You need to make assumptions and then get burned when they turn into defects because it turns out you aren't a mind reader. You need to work with lots of developers that are better than you and learn new ways of doing things.

    Suffering through that pain and humiliation for years takes a real passion for programming. If you aren't passionate about it, you aren't going to keep coming back to it again and again.

  • Why are you (not she) posting this question? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by karlandtanya ( 601084 ) on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @01:13PM (#50026707)

    That's not rhetorical. She isn't posting this; you are, and there's a reason.

    You've already established that your wife doesn't want a 'job' in IT.
    Go listen to her and find out what she wants. If she wants your help, help her.

    "...it's relatively easier to find a job in IT than starting a new career..."
    comes off a "IT folks and my wife can handle jobs, not careers".

  • How about Android? Use all those mad Java skills, but skip all the "Enterprise" BS. Might be fun.

    • Yep - MOD UP! Mobile is very hot. Definitely uses Java, but makes it practical and "real-world" if you're not into all the Enterprise stuff.

  • If she's thinking about it, why are you the one asking about it?

    Sounds more like she's thinking about not trying very hard to get back into it ... You ever consider that she doesn't actually want to? Maybe you want her too? Maybe she's only trying to put forth enough effort to appease you but not actually enough to get a job?

    Something is wrong if you're asking for her.

  • It is the economy (Score:3)

    by Rumagent ( 86695 ) on Wednesday July 01, 2015 @01:42PM (#50026927)

    I do not know you financial situation at all. But my wife and I were in a similar situation a couple of years ago. And it basically boils down to two things:

    1) You are parents. That means sometimes doing things you do not particularly like to make sure that your kids will have a reasonably stable upbringing - aka you can pay for stuff.

    2) Regardless of what you do, it is easier to get the next job if you are employed.

    No matter how you end up dealing with your situation, remember your wife. Help her, listen to her and be there. In a year or two you will have moved on, and this will just be another story to annoy your kids with.

    Best of luck!

  • You say your wife doesn't seem to be into dev anymore. Have you even THOUGHT about asking *HER* what *SHE* wants to do?

  • Beat her with a stick until she realizes its for the greater good. All must bow to the great diversity or be publicly shamed and beaten. We can have it no other way.

  • If she is still into IT, then either planning/management stuff might be interesting (BA=Business Analyst), or probably operating, second or third level support might be interesting.

    I once worked for a bank in operations, very well payed, but boring as I had not much to do. That was 90% Calypso related (a trading software) and SQL on Sybase and a little bit of Solaris/Unix work.

    Bottom line I was there 8h a day and worked like 1h - 2h per day, you could read books or surf the internet.

    Actually a sign of a smo

  • A lot of people are commenting about her deserving a fulfilling career or about children needing a parent around and all sorts of stuff like that. That's all well and good, but I am assuming a little differently.

    The fact that he is bothering with this at all makes me think it is possible that the family simply NEEDS the money. Maybe he is just being the financially responsible one and she is not.

    Sure it would be great if she could find a new career which she would love. But.. if they NEED the money now an

  • Before, she worked as a Java developer for around two years doing mostly Java Enterprise stuff. However, she is not very eager to go back to coding. I think she has the right mental skills to be a developer, but she is just not very passionate about coding or IT in general.

    ... she has the "right mental skills to be a developer" because she *was* one.

    So let me re-phrase things for you: I think you have the right mental skills to be a good partner/husband, but you keep saying stupid things like that. Keep it up and and enjoy your divorce... :-)

  • If she is a decent writer, she could parlay her programming experience into a technical writing position. Many require programming experience. The hours and work environment are more like a regular job.

  • She could get into Android development but that's not something she could just jump right into, even with her Java background
  • All her most recent experience is in childcare. You should take advantage of that and hire her as a full-time nanny.

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