Ask Slashdot: How Would You Introduce Kids In Rural India To Computers? 218
asto21 writes: A friend of mine wants to introduce school kids in rural India to computers and could use some advice. Key questions: What learning material to use and how to source? What programming language to start with? What software to introduce them to? What games to introduce them to? Key constraints: The kids don't know much English and speak a local language called Odiya. There aren't any technical publications/resources in Odiya. Poor internet connectivity. No computer experts on the school staff. Any other advice/help would also be appreciated.
Start with the basics. (Score:5, Funny)
FreeBSD, vim and python.
Man pages are full of helpful stuff. You can set up a local ports/pkg jail. Setup a local Usenet and IRC server for Chat.
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They don't need anything like that, they just need someone to help them get H1-B visas and they can learn on the job.
Re:Start with the basics. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Start with the basics. (Score:3)
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The constraints in TFS include poor knowledge of English, no technical literature in the language the kids speak fluently, no technical advisers on staff, poor internet connectivity. Under those constraints, I'd suggest that BSD and vim are unlikely to be really useful. (I wouldn't want to start someone on vim as a first editor anyway.) Python is a good choice
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I thought the basics would be:
Poor young Indian child, this is a computer.
Computer, this is Srimadaddankithirumalavaraahavenkatathaa.
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How to introduce an Indian kid to computers? Here's how:
See this here box? It's going to allow you to steal jobs from whiny yet wealthy Americans. Learn to use it and you've got it made.
babies catch on before you know it (Score:2)
in my wife's day care, before babies are out of diapers and into complete sentences, they are already cognizant about the basics... swipe, point, scroll, point, point, point... and OMFG it's Amazon or eBay and they are buying a used BMW!
you are perhaps saying citizens of India are behind babies that can barely walk?
really, all you have to do is put a tablet on the projector, run one app, and hand the things out. like all of us in 1983/4, we'll learn the rest.
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FreeBSD, vim and python
Not remotely basic enough. Teach 'em calc (thank you, Newton and Leibniz) and how to use a goddamn slide rule. Hell, teach 'em how to use an abacus... but make sure they learn analog logic (including hydraulic and pneumatic circuits aka fluid logic) and then move 'em on to analog PLC's. Only when they've mastered all that shit (which they should have by the time they're in middle school, if you've started early enough) do you move 'em onto digital.
They'll be unstoppable (unlike, sadly, most of you guys). ;)
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I learned to program and the basics of loops, if, etc on a TI-89.
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"I learned to program and the basics of loops, if, etc on a TI-89."
I just _had_ to learn it, it was the only way to get an advantage by cheating at computer games.
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So, good plan, poor rural kids in India just need to save their wages for a few years, and buy a calculator. Programmers of the future!
first you have to start with registers, and ALUs.. (Score:2)
otherwise everything is the equivalent of NOPs in function.
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Have you been to India? There are places that would do really well with computers and have all the things you listed.
By your metric parts of the rural US don't have the basics of sanitation, food, medicine, either.
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By hitting keys on a physical or virtual keyboard?
Here in the first world, homeless people may shit between two cars but they have debit cards and cell phones.
Hmmm ... why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this better than literacy? Sex ed? Things which they can use? Like even English or math?
Or is this the growing trend of "ZOMG ... teh children must use teh computers"?
Coding? Games? Maybe your friend is missing the damned point and doing this as a vanity project?
Everyone is so damned excited to ensure every child on the planet is being taught "teh computers", and nobody seems to be stopping to ask if that's what they need most (or at all).
A bigger impact (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this better than literacy? Sex ed? Things which they can use? Like even English or math?
Or is this the growing trend of "ZOMG ... teh children must use teh computers"?
Coding? Games? Maybe your friend is missing the damned point and doing this as a vanity project?
Everyone is so damned excited to ensure every child on the planet is being taught "teh computers", and nobody seems to be stopping to ask if that's what they need most (or at all).
Exactly. Take the money you were going to spend on computers, and invest that into helping to pay off the loans that farmers across India have had to take to keep their farms going. You know, the loans causing thousands of farmers to commit suicide every year leaving their families further in debt. Having a computer isn't worth bearing the brunt of your dead father's insurmountable debt for the rest of your life. And for the love of God, stop skipping over the basic, ugly things like running water, access to real medical care, and reliable electricity for the "cool" things like giving a poor, malnourished school kid a barebones PC kit and teaching them how to program Minecraft in a language based on their local dialect.
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I'm CTO of a US company who employs 40+ people in India. I'll be taking my 5th trip to India this Fall.
Teaching rural kids programming is NOT going to improve their lives. They are not going to get jobs in IT. I can hire developers who attended IIT for $3k/month. I need quality, not lower labor rates.
If you want to improve the lives of rural kids, work toward skills they need for jobs they could get: waiter, store worker, laborer, farmer, driver, hotel worker, etc. They need basic math and language ski
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If you need quality, why are you hunting for programmers in India? Too many of Indian programmers were formerly students of other disciplines, like Chemical or Mechanical Engineering, Biology and so on. Scour Eastern Europe, and you'll get better results.
But I agree w/ your other statement - programming is not gonna improve their lives. They could start in something like logistics, which is needed in the agricultural sector, and then they could use that experience to get into other areas that coul
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The AC said he can hire IIT grads for $3K/month, which does not look like bottom-feeding to me. India is not a developed country, but it's working on it, and there's a lot of differences between one place and another. India has some very good people. It also has some very cheap people. So far, I haven't seen an overlap.
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Maybe they already have classes for reading, sex ed, and math. Just because they don't have much in the way of computers yet doesn't mean they have neglected everything else. And maybe computer skills is more marketable in their region (perhaps a relatively short bus ride to a major city) than being able to speak English.
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The computer itself may introduce some English, even if it's just begin, end, start, stop, run, open file, close file, edit, quit, save (or continue, game over, score, high scores)
If you're using e.g. a program that combines an editor and BASIC interpreter you can learn both at the same time. Think of 8/16bit home computers and game consoles : most everything was in English world-wide, although there were many other major languages like Spanish, French, Deutsch etc.
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You're essentially engaging in a false dichotomy. I think there's a better, more precise term for exactly what you're saying but that's good enough.
Who said teaching them about computing in any way detracts from those other subjects?
This comes up in charity all the time. "You shouldn't care about that/those people because this is worse/these people have it worse!" Follow the link. Ten computers were donated, so they're being used. Maybe they should use them to teach the subjects you mention, but the two are
Re:Hmmm ... why? (Score:4, Informative)
Oh, really?
This doesn't sound like they have any infrastructure, expertise, technology, or a plan ... just "hey, let's show these kids computers".
At which point, I seriously question if this serves any purpose or will improve these kids lives any.
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Re:Hmmm ... why? (Score:4, Insightful)
This doesn't sound like they have any infrastructure, expertise, technology, or a plan ... just "hey, let's show these kids computers".
Agree 100%. The submitter might have asked how they'd go about starting a space program.
Teach them sex ed, hygiene, agriculture, and other basic skills that will actually help them survive. Knowing HTML isn't going to be of any bloody value to them at this time.
Re:Hmmm ... why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Teach them sex ed, hygiene, agriculture, and other basic skills that will actually help them survive. Knowing HTML isn't going to be of any bloody value to them at this time.
I don't know. There are some cases where skipping some otherwise-logical steps actually works. My dad grew up on a farm that didn't even get electricity until the 1950s, has a well for fresh water, and had a friggin' outhouse until the sixties when a proper septic system (far away from that well) was installed. He got a degree in computing science (then still a sciences program rather than engineering or business) and made real gains in employment compared to his siblings that just went into whatever local trades or jobs were available in the area.
When my brother and I were kids he got us a PC (an 8088, already obsolete as the 386 had been out for a couple of years) because we had Apple IIs in school, even though his entire career was big-iron and minicomps and he didn't deal with PCs themselves other than as a user; we used the books that came with the PC to learn how to work with DOS and with BASIC, and while I don't work with DOS or with BASIC anymore, the command line fundamentals I learned have applied to a career working with CLI-based servers and networking equipment, and some of the lessons from BASIC have helped when working with scripting languages like bash.
It's not that they have to teach all of these Indian children how to use computers as experts, that's completely unrealistic. What they need to do is to provide access to computers that those kids that want to experiment with can learn on, things that are fairly simple without necessarily having all of the bells and whistles. The computer-software equivalent of a Heathkit.
Kids that become good with computers will probably become the first adults from the region to become professionals with them. They'll drive demand for new infrastructure for computers in the area and will develop the ability to maintain it. That will open up the area for more use outside of professional interest, which will in-turn help foster interest and will continue to help drive an increase in infrastructure.
I don't know what to do about the language barrier, nor do I know what specific platforms and software would now make a good equivalent to that DOS/BASIC/8088 setup I learned on, but going to tablets with Windows 10 or going to fully-loaded Linux boxes with vi are probably not the right approaches. The TI idea sounds good, but the platform might not be quite significant enough either.
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I believe I advocated for the computers to be used as a form of technology-specific class, not as a general-purpose tool.
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Internet access can help with those basic skills, although I think the kids would need better English skills for it to be really useful.
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Oh, really?
This doesn't sound like they have any infrastructure, expertise, technology, or a plan ... just "hey, let's show these kids computers".
At which point, I seriously question if this serves any purpose or will improve these kids lives any.
As someone who actually grew in a very poor country, I agree with this post.
I'm willing to bet a testicle that those kids have serious needs of a different kind: vaccination, nutrition (just because you are not starving that does not mean you are growing up well nourished, from experience, I know what I'm talking about here.), availability of vocational training that they can employ in ther socio-economic context, etc, etc.
Kids in those situations need to get good nutrition, good meals in school, basic
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Except it sounds like they have no internet, no computers, no resources in their own language.
Or, perhaps, you're being hopelessly naive?
We already see things about how technology doesn't magically solve education in North America and the like. People make these claims about how giving every kid an iPad or teaching them to code will do miraculous things.
And the reality i
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If only they understood something other than an obscure local language...
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It's funny, but there's some truth to that. Just not in the corporate overlord case.
Back in College in the 1970s, one of the most popular programs on the mainframe was a chat program, allowing you to chat with other people on campus. Many freshman--brand new to college life and not necessarily feeling comfortable--used those programs to talk to people, people they might not normally have met.
It was an interesting way to introduce them to--and get them comfortable with--using a computer. Suddenly, it migh
Re: Hmmm ... why? (Score:1)
Wouldn't it be better to have Java programmers come from Borneo, it's so much closer to the source.
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Exactly, start by teaching them english... english is widely spoken in india, so they will have far more freedom to travel outside of their local area, not to mention communicate with people outside of india and read educational literature / documentation.
Gaming (Score:2)
I wouldn't. (Score:1)
They'll just end up working for "Microsoft Support" and scamming Grandma again.
Windows 10. (Score:2, Funny)
They won't have to worry about passwords, they can log in with their smile. Let them grow up on Windows 10. A more human way to do.
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Actually, this is a good place to start. Since the submitter's question is about one of the more backward states in India, not your Bangalore or Pune or Noida or Chennai.
A good place to start would be w/ either Windows Phones or touchscreen laptops/tablets, like an Asus Transformer. Show them the basic Windows apps that they're more likely to find useful. Like Mail, Maps, Edge, Weather,... Also, in the keyboard preferences area, add a keyboard and select 'Odia', which is the language in question. I
There are actual teachers in India, you know... (Score:4, Insightful)
Barring that, ask your friend to get a copy of a book called "The Ugly American" by Burdick and Lederer. I'm about 95% sure that he hasn't read it.
First, listen to every talk by Sugata Mitra ... (Score:3, Informative)
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That Sugata fellow is dozing off... Hes like Obama, all talk and no walk.
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It's clear from the submission that this is a vanity project, and that improving quality of life is a tertiary concern, at best.
Embedded Programming (Score:2)
Solar power embedded programming. Start with programming toys. Then on to useful stuff.
Stop the non-sense. (Score:2)
What they really need is scientific and strategic thinking on how to take their life ahead, manage the village life, their farms more modern and productive, etc. in a smart way, etc. Simply throwing computers and computer education around without first giving them the fundamentals does not help at all. It just adds to the problem.
That said there are many ideas:
Write or install software where they can create friendly quiz for each other on various topics.
Teach them how to draw graphs and interpret them.
How t
Games (Score:1)
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Draw upon history. (Score:2)
Offer them H1B's.
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UI design is the needful (Score:2)
I'd teach them UI design. I'd start by beating into their heads that when you click on a story title you expect to open the story so you can post on it, not toggle the description's visibility.
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I'd teach them UI design. I'd start by beating into their heads that when you click on a story title you expect to open the story so you can post on it, not toggle the description's visibility.
Now that's just crazy talk! ;)
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I middle click on the story title, works fine for me every time. You can also left click on the number on the right hand side that depicts the number of comments on a story, but that doesn't allow FP!!!
Infrastructure, computers, then curiosity (Score:2)
.
Second, get usable computers to rural India.
Third, step back and let it happen.
.
If you want to build a ship, don't herd people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Odisha, you say? DigitalGREEN is there. (Score:2)
http://www.digitalgreen.org/di... [digitalgreen.org]
Don't fucking do it! (Score:1)
Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, don't do it!
I'm so fucking tired of being connected to India when I call for support... between the language barrier and them just not giving a shit about your problem I'd like to kick their teeth in.
Walk before you can run... (Score:3, Insightful)
Get them some clean running water, clean sanitation, and basic human rights before you go worrying about computers...
Give 'em the computers and stay out of the way (Score:5, Insightful)
As One Laptop Per child demonstrated, they'll learn on their own if given a chance.
"Earlier this year, OLPC workers dropped off closed boxes containing the tablets, taped shut, with no instruction. “I thought the kids would play with the boxes. Within four minutes, one kid not only opened the box, found the on-off switch powered it up. Within five days, they were using 47 apps per child, per day. Within two weeks, they were singing ABC songs in the village, and within five months, they had hacked Android,” Negroponte said. “Some idiot in our organization or in the Media Lab had disabled the camera, and they figured out the camera, and had hacked Android.”"
Note these are children who had never seen writing before, working with computers that did not include their local language.
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It's a question of cost vs benefits. Would you rather help 50 kids with computers and a teacher, or 500 with just the computer, who will get 75% of the benefits? And that can be a tough question. The cost of a teacher can be considerable, compared to a box of Raspberry Pi kits.
Computers 'do not improve' pupil results says OECD (Score:1)
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34174796
Investing heavily in school computers and classroom technology does not improve pupils' performance, says a global study from the OECD.
The think tank says frequent use of computers in schools is more likely to be associated with lower results.
screw the computer (Score:1)
Copy and paste is all there is to really learn (Score:1)
Why teach them to code? If they've mastered copy and paste they are ready to take on coding jobs. Teach them to mine bitcoins instead.
Teach curiosity and don't assume any knowledge (Score:2)
Don't assume good electricity and don't assume internet connectivity; it may not exist. Don't assume basics like keyboarding skills and mouse movements. In fact, don't assume much. Learn from knowledge gaps observed elsewhere: A friend who tries to bring science to rural communities in Maharashtra starts by teaching kids about the difference between an analog watch & a compass. It may seem silly, bu
odiya? They changed the name again? (Score:3)
They rename streets too. Streets named after British civil service officers ages ago get renamed after Indian dignitaries. These narrow short streets in the middle of town totally overwhelmed by population growth get renamed. At the same time in the suburbs roads named imaginatively 120 feet road, 80 feet road, 18th main road, 14th cross road, HAL Third Stage etc retain their difficult to remember names. A guy named A Brito used to write letters to the editor in Indian Express, Bangalore edition a lot when I was there. He got really fed up when they renamed yet another tiny street. He proposed to rename the Queen Victoria statue as Mayor Butte Gowda statue.
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What nonsense (Score:3)
Get Wikipedia (Score:3)
This [wikipedia.org] appears to be the Odia language Wikipedia. But I know you said there's limited Internet. So I suggest you get Kiwix [kiwix.org] with the entire Odia Wikipedia [kiwix.org] (.torrent link to a complete package for Windows), and burn it to CD-ROM. (Odia isn't a popular language, so it all fits easily.) You can also look at other language Wikipedias, both because they are more comprehensive, and because they could help the children learn those languages.
Sugata Mishra's Hole in the Wall experiment (Score:1)
success criteria (Score:2)
The kids don't know much English and speak a local language called Odiya. There aren't any technical publications/resources in Odiya. Poor internet connectivity. No computer experts on the school staff.
Before you go anywhere near trying to find a technical solution, it is imperative you write a single sentence to say what direct, measurable, benefit will arise from this venture. Preferably a benefit to the children taking part, rather than imparting a nice warm feeling of having "helped" to the educators.
If that turns out to be a stumper, you really need to stand back and think of a different question - one that you CAN answer, before talking about languages, OS's, games and all that technical gibberish
Means to an End ... (Score:2)
from TFA: "I read somewhere, Technology is tool, and not a learning outcome."
Yes. A Means to an End.
Define the End and then consider whether the computer is the best way to achieve it. If the End is a better crop yield, computer programming or Excel or Powerpoint would come later than the need for English language and Wikipedia (internet access). English language learning software will get the process started and doesn't require internet access.
If the End is a lower birth rate or a lower infant mortality ra
Introduce Indian Kids to Computers (Score:2)
On the assembly line, of course. Like China and Apple products.
Rural Indiana? (Score:2)
I first read the headline as "How Would You Introduce Kids in Rural Indiana to Computers" and my first thought was, "Don't bother. Introduce them to a toothbrush first".
Here ya go (Score:3)
Computer: Raspberry Pi
OS: Inferno
Programming Language: LISP
Editor: Emacs
Game: Leather Godesses of Phobos
For the more artsy kids Tex can replace LISP.
Logo (Score:2)
I remember that they tried it that already in India with little Logo turtle programming decades ago, didn't it work?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Teach them Indian English instead (Score:1)
Teach English first (Score:3)
Suppose the project was successful, how would the kids make any practical use of their skills or improve them further on their own? Learning English or another common language opens a huge window into outside world and access to knowledge in all subjects, including computers. Personally I grew up in Soviet Union and studying English rather than any less common foreign language in school opened up tremendous options later in life.
start with the essentials (Score:2)
Food growing, animal husbandry, water management and construction.
For fuck's sake, they're kids in a third world country, not the Lost Tribe of Silicon Valley.
First You Teach Them English (Score:2)
The British Empire learned this long long long ago. Read your Kipling and quit wasting our time.
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Thanks, Dad.
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He said they speak Odiya and not Hindu.
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Perhaps AC meant "Teach the Odiya speakers English and Hindi first so they can interact with the majority".
Sounds like the Moderator... (Score:2)
...who down-modded you is offended by rational humanism, or took your last sentence as bait.
Too bad. It was a good post, and thanks for sharing it.
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Where are the Jews that would refuse to serve you a cheeseburger?
Well, I think you'll find them in kosher restaurants. That's not discrimination, that's just the menu. :-P
Seriously though, to FTFY, I would not expect Jews in a kosher restaurant to refuse to serve non-Jews. And analogously for any other specialty establishment that is open to the public.
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Especially English.
Clean water, toilets and computers can be picked up later. But foreign languages are best learned early.
And if the trend of outsourcing to India continues, English is a very valuable skill.
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PEDAL. What're you, from India or something?
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how come we don't hear about OLPC any more? Could it be the proliferation of cheap Android gear?
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What was technically ambitious about the OLPC computer was making it for that little money. It may have kicked off the netbook market. Nowadays, you can get a half-assed Android tablet for cheap, and even if the sound and camera are crap it can still work as a small computer.
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good points, though I thought the Toshiba Libretto was the kickstart for the netbook market?
(although they're rare as rocking horse shit now - I'd still like one even though I have an Asus EeePC 1008HA Seashell which is feckin' fantastic for what it is - need a new battery now since it's five years old and in daily use)
Our old friend Wikipedia has it that the current generation of the netbook was inspired by the Libretto and really given a kick up the arse by Asus with the 700 series; while OLPC yes, had to