Ask Slashdot: Are We Living In the Golden Age of Bailing? (nytimes.com) 248
An anonymous reader shares a report that makes a case of us living in an era where bailing has become just too common: It's clear we're living in a golden age of bailing. All across America people are deciding on Monday that it would be really fantastic to go grab a drink with X on Thursday. But then when Thursday actually rolls around they realize it would actually be more fantastic to go home, flop on the bed and watch Carpool Karaoke videos. So they send the bailing text or email: "So sorry! I'm gonna have to flake on drinks tonight. Overwhelmed. My grandmother just got bubonic plague..." Bailing is one of the defining acts of the current moment because it stands at the nexus of so many larger trends: the ambiguity of modern social relationships, the fraying of commitments (paywalled), what my friend Hayley Darden calls the ethic of flexibility ushered in by smartphone apps -- not to mention the decline of civilization, the collapse of morality and the ruination of all we hold dear. [...] Technology makes it all so easy. You just pull out your phone and bailing on a rendezvous is as easy as canceling an Uber driver. There are different categories of bailing. There is canceling on friends. This seems to follow a bail curve pattern. People feel free to bail on close friends, because they will understand, and on distant friends, because they don't matter so much, but they are less inclined to bail on medium-tier or fragile friends. Then there is professional bailing. This tends to have a hierarchical structure. A high-status person will frequently bail on a lower-status colleague, but if an intern bails on a senior executive, it is a sign of serious disrespect. What do you folks think?
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:David Brooks? Seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
'No, David. It's just you. Get a clue."
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I think somebody failed to notice that this has been the default behavior of Americans for the past 30 years.
Re:David Brooks? Seriously? (Score:4, Informative)
This is not only an American trait, the only place where I don't see it happening regularly is Japan..
Re:David Brooks? Seriously? (Score:4, Informative)
It happens in Germany, not so much, so. It happens far less in Spain, France, Italy. Because the dating and "going out" culture is completely different.
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The whole "dating" concept is one I haven't figured out yet. How does it differ from going out?
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No point asking him. He thinks adjectives aren't words.
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When people bail on me then they are no longer friends. Clears things up very quickly. Peer pressure works.
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Slashdot's next post will probably be from Andy Rooney / 60 Minutes. "Remember when X was a thing? Mah!"
I'll give you my views on bailing in the body (Score:2)
Reference to Betteridge's law coming in 3..2..1 (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Reference to Betteridge's law coming in 3..2..1 (Score:5, Funny)
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And the Europeans do round baling, which I nominate as the single stupidest idea in the history of agriculture. This is why:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new... [dailymail.co.uk]
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I see round bales everywhere in the US. Where did you get this idiotic idea that it was strictly a European thing?
Epic way to die (Score:2)
Cellist Mike Edwards died instantly when the 50-stone cylindrical bale careered down a slope, flipped 15ft over a hedge and smashed on to the roof of his van.
Holy shit! Hands down the best way to die I have seen in a very long time.
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A standard rectangular bale with 2:1:1 proportions can be lifted by one man, and at the same time can be stacked very high to fill any storage space or to form large blocks that can be lifted with mechanical help. And they won't roll if they fall over in the field.
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Round bales can be unloaded from the truck by one driver who knows how to use reverse and the brake.
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Betteridge's law is one of those really stupid ideas that makes no sense. That explains why the users here keep trotting it out. Most readers on this site are pretty stupid. What if the headline read, "was Hitler wrong to exterminate the Jews?" Would you answer no to that? My god the people here are stupid, just like Betteridge.
Actually it's a corollary of good writing practices, in the context of newspaper journalism.
Headlines need to be as short as possible, so if you're waisting letters on a question word it better be because your article explains why the answer is "no" as otehrwise any editor with half the title would have cut it down to the shorter declarative statement, or tossed the article in the trash if all it does is restate the headline in paragraph form.
For example:
"Will Earth Explode Tomorrow?"
"Earth to Explode Tomor
not news for nerds, nor stuff that matters (Score:2, Insightful)
This is not news for nerds, stuff that matters.
My view on bailing (Score:3)
It's not that I want to flop on the couch, it's that I have over-committed my resources.
Also, why do we need to make plans to do anything these days? Why can't we just grab drinks whenever. Or go for a hike when the moment strikes us. Want to go fishing Saturday? call me before 10pm the night before, I really don't need a lot of notice to prepare. But if you want to set up a big fishing expedition 2 weeks in advance, well a lot can happen then. I can't say for certain how I will even feel 2 weeks from now.
Re:My view on bailing (Score:5, Insightful)
This attitude towards planning pretty much requires you to over-commit your resources, otherwise you'll frequently end up bored with nothing to do... Because "spur of the moment" planning fails horribly when the "spurs" of your life don't line up with the "spurs" of everyone else in your social group.
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Is your interest in fishing or some other activity really so volatile that if you agree to go fishing in two weeks you might find yourself so uninterested in fishing that you'd suddenly decide you absolutely wouldn't go?
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short answer: Yes.
If my dishwasher is flooding my kitchen, then I probably shouldn't leave that mess for my wife. But it's always something, if I only went out when every chore was done I would never go out. Sometimes things are critical and force me to change plans, something they are not and I can put them off for a while.
Also, I'm at that age where people in my extended family die and parents get hospitalized. After comforting my Mom because her Aunt died, I don't really feel like going fishing.
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If it's a
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If we all waited for perfect conditions almost nothing would get done.
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Those are still plans, just short term. Even "Hey, let's go get a drink." on the phone is a plan. And if you can't keep a calendar clear two weeks for a outing that requires more than grab your wallet preparation you shouldn't be making those kinds of plans.
People that dork me on those kinds of things (w/out *good* reason) get one pass. Second time and I never make plans with them again because they're unreliable.
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call me before 10pm the night before, I really don't need a lot of notice to prepare.
Sounds like you have a crap Saturday ahead of you when no one calls. If anyone calls me for anything 10pm the night before there's a very good chance the answer is sorry busy, maybe next week.
I can't say for certain how I will even feel 2 weeks from now.
What we can say for certain is that you're an uncommitted flaker who would bail on something that requires planning because of "how you will feel". I hope you're happy not being included in anything big.
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Also, why do we need to make plans to do anything these days? Why can't we just grab drinks whenever. Or go for a hike when the moment strikes us. Want to go fishing Saturday? call me before 10pm the night before, I really don't need a lot of notice to prepare. But if you want to set up a big fishing expedition 2 weeks in advance, well a lot can happen then. I can't say for certain how I will even feel 2 weeks from now.
See, this type of attitude is EXACTLY the problem. It shows you only care about YOUR time, not other people's time, only YOUR feelings and moods and not other people's feelings and moods. "I can't say for certain how I will even feel 2 weeks from now" is exactly the type of self-centred, selfish attitude that instant always-connected communication has allowed to proliferate.
Now, there have ALWAYS been people with attitudes such as yours - the attitudes are nothing new in themselves. However, as a previous p
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United Airlines, is that you?
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I have a life and things to do that require planning in advance.
Me too, but I reserve that kind of planning work and chores. If I'm going to enjoy life, I can't sit down and plan every detail of my life and accommodate your every detail. If having a regimented life is satisfying to you, I guess, but I can't imagine that most human beings would thrive on an highly structured life.
And no, you aren't expected to drop everything. You are free to say "sorry man, I'm busy. maybe some other time". I even ask my friend who never says yes because I know he is probably depressed
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My friends have comments on me being loyal and I usually am one of the people they know who is flexible enough to drive hours to another city to pick them up. (sometimes trips have complications)
Really I think every friendship is unique, and each person expresses their care for each other differently. I don't carry a rigid definition of what it means to be a friend. Simply enjoying a person's company can be sufficient. For others a willingness to plan elaborate dinner parties or trips is what it takes. (obv
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I wonder what that is even supposed to mean.
(been fun burning karma on this thread, later guys)
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Literally carve? yikes.
And there is a huge difference between having young kids, and having older kids. With older kids you do have a lot more flexibility with your time. You may prefer to spend time with your family, that's different. But tweens and teens, you can go to their sports games and that sort of thing. A lot of parents tell me they are too busy, but I know a lot who aren't always busy too.
My job is SW engineer involved in silicon validation. so I work 12-hours/day certain times a year (when Si ma
Bailing? (Score:5, Interesting)
WTF? Bailing doesn't mean not showing up. It means leaving. Flaking means not showing up. The example in TFS even includes the example "gonna have to flake", it's not "gonna have to bail". If you're at the event, and you get a phone call from your bra, then you gotta bail, right?
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It's "brah" dude. "BRAH"
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If you're at the event, and you get a phone call from your bra, then you gotta bail, right?
Most women I know will simply remove the phone from their bra and answer it. No need to bail on the entire even to take a call. That would just be rude.
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Honestly, this is all bullshit semantics. Talk about Stuff that doesn't fucking matter. This sure as shit ain't News for Nerds.
Obviously. Nerds don't have friends.
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Don't be. Slashdot and Unicode just don't mix.
Unlike other, more modern, news aggregation websites, /. never bothered to code in Unicode support when it started to become de rigueur. Now that the site has settled into the long slow decline to obscurity the Corporate Overlords say that there just isn't a business case for it, sorry.
Weak (Score:3, Insightful)
I think this post is terrible, I don't come here to read this type of worthless crap.
I choose (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:I choose (Score:4, Interesting)
Bail on me once, shame on me. Bail on me twice, I won't acknowledge your existence anymore. Its simple fucking respect, if you make an arrangement, follow through. We're people, not stupid social media endpoints.
How ironic you bring up social media, a place where humans are nothing more than a product.
People used to value a real friendship. Now it's all about clicks, likes, and amassing as many "friends" as possible while pointlessly showcasing rampant narcissism, which for some fucking reason has become a valued commodity in society today. Attention Whore is a recognized profession that will probably be further validated by a Doctorate program soon.
Social media has distorted the very definition of friend so much we now need to invent a new fucking word to better define what a true relationship between two humans really is. Then we need to change human behavior to highlight the value of simple fucking respect.
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You're conflating the owner of the media (FB, /.) with the people using it. Unless, of course, you actually see your friends and acquaintances as products.
They still do, you need to find better friends.
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I'll tell you what I think (Score:2)
The worst part (Score:2)
is all these damn kids on my lawn.
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is all these damn kids on my lawn.
Old man, I think you are on the wrong thread, the pokemon go thread is over here [slashdot.org]
</snicker>
Personality flaw (Score:2)
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I associate being a flake with selfishness and self centeredness.
That, or being too cowardly to call up and cancel. Which is another kind of selfishness, really.
Half hearted, and half assed (Score:4, Interesting)
"Bailing" is not a thing, personal responsibility and accountability are things. "Bailing" is a symptom. Computers have made us less accountable for our acts, and less responsible. The only aspect I would say is "new", is that these traits are promoted as good and righteous. Not by everyone, but have you ever "worked" in Silicon Valley? Have you ever attempted to debate UBI on this site?
In the Military we called it slacking, and if you are a slacker in one area you will be a slacker in another. Basic human nature and psychology.
Slackers have always been around. The only difference between today and 50 years ago is that slackers are being promoted as the new "norm".
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Have you ever attempted to debate UBI on this site?
I have, but its detractors always seem to fail to provide citations for their arguments as to why it can't work, and they keep making the same arguments again and again even after they've been thoroughly discredited, as if stamping their feet and repeating themselves would make their opinions any more valid as fact.
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The Millenial RSVP (Score:2)
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The Golden Age of Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
"Are We Living In the Golden Age of Bailing?"
No, clearly we're Living In the Golden Age of Slashdot, represented by showers. Clearly someone's taken a piss all over the concept of Stuff that Matters.
I'd comment further, but I'm gonna bail instead...
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Been around since almost the beginning; if it continues like this I won't be around much longer. CIAO.
Cue the userid wars...
What I think? (Score:2)
The writer has undiagnosed clinical depression and is blaming his shitty outlook on the world on technology. I'm genuinely impressed with how much loathing was packed into a short summary.
Bullshit (Score:2)
Flakes are hardly new. The writer is either young or stupid (and possibly both).
The difference between today and yesteryear is that now pretty much everyone is connected 24/7, so there's more pressure to actually communicate that you're going to be a no-show instead of simply not showing up.
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It started for me actually as a friend gifted to me an answering machine for my landline.
Still have it, but it is disconnected.
My iPhone is in "good night mode" till 11AM in the morning. Actually the best feature of a smart phone.
If the wrong person calls at the wrong time, I cancel the call.
And on top of that list was for a long time my mother.
The instant messaging revolution is a revolution because you can ignore all that text as long as you want and can catch up when you feel like it.
However 90% of the p
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>Can you imagine working in a company where the boss sends you an email and calls 30 minutes later: "did you receive my email?" ....
30 minutes? LUXURY!
I am an information junkie so it took me a long time to 'unplug' after 24/7 connectivity became a thing, but I DID learn.
My phone only accepts calls from a select few contacts, and phone calls are the only thing that make noise - everything else is generally vibration only, and I turn that off too when I want peace and quiet.
I grew up in a time when your
The problem is YOU (Score:4, Insightful)
If people prefer to spend their time watching crappy TV, rather than spending time with you, that just says that you're not very interesting.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have better things to do than hang around here
weird timeline (Score:2)
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Half of my friends ...
And often Monday and Thursday are not in the same week.
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I've never heard of someone planning to have drinks with someone Thursday on a Monday. Who makes casual plans like that?
People that have complex daily lives?
If you are a single parent with kids, grabbing drinks mean you need a sitter. That means you need to schedule work for someone else.
Some people that work with strange schedules and the likelihood you will catch them on a particular day is low..
If you really want to grad a drink with a particular someone (as opposed to anyone), you better make a precise plan, otherwise he/she might have a plan that does require more preparation.
Maybe Thursday is your next free evening aft
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I've never heard of someone planning to have drinks with someone Thursday on a Monday. Who makes casual plans like that?
Bars don't require people to brings friends. You just sit at them and order drinks. After a few drinks you start talking to other people at the bar.
What the heck? (Score:2)
Are We Living In the Golden Age of Bailing?
Growing up, I was repeatedly taught "there are no stupid questions, except for unasked ones".
Well... Slashdot just proved that old saw false. What the heck kind of stupid question is this, anyway?
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Well... Slashdot just proved that old saw false. What the heck kind of stupid question is this, anyway?
From the dep't of betteridge's legal services
Who you gonna call? (Score:3)
"What do you folks think?"
That if this is your problem then you don't have any real friends.
Seriously. Reevaluate your relationships with people if this is what they're doing to you.
Sort of. (Score:2)
Age of Planshopping and Flaking? Yes.
Golden? Wouldn't call it that.
Here's the deal: Social media and always on culture shorten attention spans to a minimum and cyberpunk culture disintegrates social ties we've had since the early age of man. Planshopping and bailing are a sideeffect of this. I dislike it a lot and try to sniff out and steer clear of people who indulge in this before wasting my time with them. Likewise I try my hardest to cherish the people who can treat me fair and with respect, keep an app
Answer is NO (Score:2)
Bailing is pure bullshit - I have never bailed on plans with a friend and never will. That is the definition of friendship. I might not want to go when the time arrives but guess what, I do, and am usually happy I did, because I feel good about keeping to my word and seeing a real friend is always good too.
Acquaintances on the other hand? Bail away... And here is a clue, people who bail on you are not your friends, they are acquaintances.
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That's an unusual definition of friendship.
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That's an unusual definition of friendship.
Everyone's definition is different. Do you want people you can rely on through thick and thin? Or just people to have fun with?
I tend to agree with GP and call the first kind "friend" and the second kind "acquaintance". You can have fun with complete strangers, but you can't rely on them in a time of need.
Besides, if your friends will happily bail on you at the drop of a hat, who do you turn to when things go south and your life's in the gutter? As someone much wiser than me once said:
A friend will help you move, but a true friend will help you move a body.
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To be blunt, you have some things left to learn if you want to become a man.
You've really ritualized this, haven't you?
I respectfully disagree with your assertions.
The mind is weak (Score:2)
I guess the problem is very simple. People "agree" (in fact get convinced and are to weak to say "no!") on something they are not committed to.
And the closer the date/time comes the more uncomfortable they get. And then shortly before the event: they bail out.
Has lots to do with how you spent your evenings (different countries do that completely different, e.g. I like Spain and Italy, of course also France).
I actually don't really like to meet "old school" in a restaurant/pub with a prescheduled date. I eit
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I actually don't really like to meet "old school" in a restaurant/pub with a prescheduled date. I either go there and we meet by accident or we don't or we do it on short notice. Short notice means half a day max: "what are you doing this evening?" And then I can bail out right away: "Oh, I'm occupied!"
That's fine if you're just going for dinner or drinks, but what if you're going somewhere that requires you to buy plane tickets?
I don't bail and don't deal with people who do (Score:2)
I don't bail unless it's for a really good reason (car trouble, or I can give plenty of lead time (24 hours).
Looking forward to things? (Score:2)
What's wrong with planning stuff? I don't know about other folks but it sure as hell helps me get through tough/dreary times when I know I have something fun coming up.
People cancel yeah, it happens, and is understandable. This article talks of people I wouldn't keep around me very long though, and you know what they say, good friends are hard to find.
kids (Score:2)
not to mention the decline of civilization, the collapse of morality and the ruination of all we hold dear.
Those damn kids on their motorybikes and that blasted rock and roll music! I knew it would end badly! Next they'll be taking drugs and playing that evil Dungeons and Dragons!!!!
Cost/Benefit of Bailing is very positive (Score:3)
I find myself "bailing" on events I was high pressured into in person, often held semi-captive, but then divesting myself of it when I had freedom again. Often, for example, people assume that you do not like them if you do not agree to their request. That's rarely true. It's more convenient to agree to go, then not go. There are limits of course, if someone is spending money on the event or going out of their way I will be blunt (ex. weddings) but thats about it.
The only trend in society that may be destructive to in-person relationships is that there is *always* plenty to do. Meat-space meetings with friends are pretty confining and limited in scope, rarely with any expected gain. I also imagine there was a day when one might be so bored that one didn't bail, that even a dubious meeting might be preferable to sitting on your couch watching The Jeffersons. But that day is well in the rear-view.
In reality I do not want, nor do I ever seek social events of any kind, everything I want or need is in my house at my keyboard, with the exception of time. That I never have in the quantity I would like. If I accept such an invitation I'm almost certain to bail but felt like I had to accept due to some real or imagined pressure on me. I will never do the inviting, and if I do you can be sure I won't bail on YOU, that really is rude. I have had people arrange large get-togethers from diverse social groups who bail, leaving those groups confused and stuck with each other...that's just a dick move.
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It's a dick move to say you're going to be somewhere if you have no intention of going. We call that being a liar, and nobody likes liars. The payback for doing that enough times is that people think you're a lying dick who can't be counted on.
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In reality I do not want, nor do I ever seek social events of any kind, everything I want or need is in my house at my keyboard, with the exception of time. That I never have in the quantity I would like. If I accept such an invitation I'm almost certain to bail but felt like I had to accept due to some real or imagined pressure on me. I will never do the inviting, and if I do you can be sure I won't bail on YOU, that really is rude. I have had people arrange large get-togethers from diverse social groups who bail, leaving those groups confused and stuck with each other...that's just a dick move.
So essentially, you are an extremely anti-social person (you do not seek social events of any kind) who feels awkward while communicating with other people (you accept invitations to events because you feel some sort of pressure, and cannot say no to a person's face). That's fine, and actually I sympathize with your position, however you should realize you are in the minority and not exactly qualified to comment on the state of "in-person meat-space" relationships.
What do you folks think? (Score:2)
Eh, I'll have to pass. No comment.
Its Katz back? (Score:2)
Was going to go read the article (Score:2)
Dude, I flaked. (Score:2)
Sorry, I was going to read TFS and TFA, but I flaked.
Surrender your phones (Score:2)
What do I think.. (Score:2)
I think the hyperbole is strong with this one..
not to mention the decline of civilization, the collapse of morality and the ruination of all we hold dear.
Really? The ruination of all we hold dear? I didn't realize the whole of modern society was relying on me making it to a Thursday night party. Guess I better brush up on my beer pong!
Other than that, this seems like "No duh, but with internet!" Time and energy are scarce resources for most people, and we're not all taught how to manage them properly. Energy especially. You can find time management courses if you feel you need them but I've never heard of
I have a most convincing proof of his thesis (Score:2)
I have a most convincing proof of his thesis. I'll post it tomorrow.
What this really means (Score:3)
For sure, I'll comment on this post... (Score:3)
oh sorry, can't get to it after all, cool? raincheck for sure thou...
I stop asking them (Score:2)
No (Score:2)
No, and we don't even need Betteridge for this.
What we are in is the diamond encrusted platinum age of retarded news stories.
Re:this is stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
People have always made tentative plans and when more important things in life come up, plans get changed.
Not everything is new just because you are doing it on/over/under/next to a computer.
Speaking as an old person, that's was generally not true. In the past failing to show was a big deal.
If plans to meet/have dinner/ see a show were made, it could not be blown off due to "more important things" unless it were an emergency.
In the past, it was only a tentative plan if it was stated to be a maybe, and on the day of the meet, it was no longer tentative. That's because changing plans was difficult for the other people because they could not easily contact other people as is possible today.
If a person said they were going to meet you somewhere, it was pretty much guaranteed they would show barring something serious happening. There's two reasons for that. One is that before cell phone/texting, it was very difficult to contact your friends if they weren't at home or work. So if you stood him/her/them up, they would be sitting for a long time waiting for you, and likely worried that something bad did happen.
For that reason, if you did not show and had not an actual emergency (i.e. something involving loss of blood), this was considered a moral failing. Everyone would soon know about it, and if it happened too many times you were likely to get ostracized. If you had a business relationship, they would seriously question whether you could be trusted at anything.
The rise of bailing is not all that bad
What is different now is that thanks to cell phones, you can easily contact the other people at any time to let them know you won't be there and they can go on without you. Or, an even bigger deal, they easily make other plans thanks to their being able to quickly contact other people.
And thanks to texting, you can do it without even having the embarrassment of lying to their face. Modern phones bring a great deal of flexibility to our lives.
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If plans to meet/have dinner/ see a show were made, it could not be blown off due to "more important things" unless it were an emergency.
I think you and the GP are talking about different things. Having dinner, seeing a show etc are things that involve effort and expense. People who bail on such an event quickly find themselves isolated from their former friends.
On the other hand, attending a party, meeting for brunch in the city, or just chilling in an afternoon, well that hasn't seemed to change. We could blow that off in the past, and we can blow that off now. Even a simple "meeting" is dependent on the details. If you meet in a group it'
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On the other hand, attending a party, meeting for brunch in the city, or just chilling in an afternoon, well that hasn't seemed to change. We could blow that off in the past, and we can blow that off now.
Spoken like someone who has never grown up and thrown a real party.
A real host throwing an adult party considers the guest list, who would like hit it off with whom, what kind of food would please everyone, and possible activities to help warm up the guests. As yeses, come in, additional guests might even be invited to make sure everyone can meet someone they have something in common, to avoid the usual cliques making anyone feel left out. That is basically impossible when 25 yeses might mean 15 people sh
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I wouldn't formally swear an oath to show up to your kid's birthday party, and I think it's weird that you think we all should. If asked, I'll say that I'll try to make it. And you might be the kind of person who will press me for a definitive answer, the answer is: no, I'm not going to your kid's birthday party if you're going to be a twit about it.
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By the way I hope you didn't actually breed. The last thing the world needs is the offspring of a jerk like you.
Hooray! I love the internet. I meet such lovely people on it. [wikipedia.org]