Ergonomic Office Equipment? 169
danimal asks: "As I sit at work typing away I wonder what ergonomic office equipment
slashdotters would reccomend? I have seen (and used) the Herman Miller Aeron and I find it very
acceptable. Then there is the issue of desks. At my office we only
have the "surface, two sides, and a brace" style, which are not very
friendly for typing all day. At one former job and other companies
I have seen Biomorph desks. Those seem to have all the right stuff: Adjustable work levels, tiltable keyboard surfaces, and enough space. What do my fellow geeks use and recommend to keep the pain away?" (More)
We seem to do a lot of topics on ergonomics, but after my bout with wrist pain and JWZ's writeup on the subject, I can't stress how important it is to keep up with these things. So I hope all of these articles we do on this subject will give you folks the tools you need to keep yourselves on the right track in the long term.
The Aeron (Score:5)
However, while they are fairly nice and look great, they have a few downsides:
* Can be a little chilly. If you find your office cold, the Aeron does not help at all as the air is free to seek heat from the rear! I don't mind this much, but a few other people that have them have mentioned that to me.
* Not very soft. Perhaps that helps you in some way, but I find myself yearning for a big overstuffed executive chair from time to time.
On the other hand, when you spill a drink on the seat it drains right through - perhaps, in the end, that is the chair's greatest strength.
The ironic part about having this chair at work is that even though everyone at work gets one of these if they want, they refuse to upgrade our 17" monitors to a larger size!!
MS Stuff (first real post) (Score:3)
- CP
Active chairs (Score:3)
Ergo split keyboards worth a try (Score:2)
Currently I'm using a Microsoft Natural Pro keyboard (not to be confused with the Natural Elite, which is way inferior). It has all these stupid Internet keys, but they're in the "penalty zone." The control key is in the wrong place, and it has a CAPS LOCK. Not ideal, and MS is still the evil empire, but it has the best feel & response of all the ergo keyboards I've tried.
With a table at correct typing height, a chair in the proper position with armrests, and good wrist support, life is bliss.
I'm all for trying more expensive solutions, but my $120 chair from Office Max and $60 keyboard are about all I need.
ALSO: for good ergonomics, avoid using the mouse when you can. Although mice are more comfortable than they used to be, the simple fact that they're usually a stretch away (or stretching your fingers for those teflon mouse surfaces in keyboards, or variants) means they're more strain than just keeping your hands on the keyboard.
Long live the command line!
Good work area (Score:1)
And most importantly lots of space. Computer desks are always too small. You need lots of space to spead out books, papers, notes etc so you're not cramped up while working.
keytable is happy to swap Ctrl and CapsLock (Score:1)
-russ
p.s. non-Linux operating systems may have a harder time doing this.
I guess I'm cheap (Score:2)
Dive Gear [divingdeals.com]
Logitech people... (Score:2)
15" LCD Active Matrix is nice, really nice. I've been getting a lot less headache since I got one. Long sessions coding are a LOT easier on the eyes. If you can't go LCD (they are really high, I understand this), get at least a quality 19" monitor. 21" is better (for most people), but I prefer my Iiyama 19". Perfect for CRT.
Mouse is always Logitech. The ergonomic Logitech MouseMan + (Wireless if possible) is what does it for me. On occasions, when I don't have access to the wireless, I take a fixed object on my desk (monitor works nice), pull the slack necessary for my mouse cord, and fix it to that with a paper clip bent around the cord. This eliminates the need to have to keep pulling cord up, as well as eliminating too much slack getting in my way. I've seen a mouse pad with a cord clip, but it was too small for me.
This takes me to mouse pads. I find an extremely oversized mouse pads takes a lot of the headache away from graphics work. I've got a "printer" pad that I picked up at CompUSA, which has the perfect mouse pad feel and texture, but is sized at about 14"x18".
That's my take. Any other suggestions?
A good mouse for X11 (Score:2)
Well, personally, I think the "Elite" is awful, but I will agree that Microsoft has put out some decent keyboards. The Natural v1 was awesome, with its built in wrist rest. Unfortunately, newer versions have a flip up *back*, which seems to me to be a recipe for RSI. The flip-up front on the v1 allowed you to straighten your wrists. Sure wish I could buy another v1.
Windows users may find Microsoft's mice to be comfortable and functional, but if you use X11, what you really want is a good, wide, three-button mouse. The Logitech WingMan, although marketed as a "gaming mouse", is a quite good X11 mouse, with three wide buttons for your copying-and-pasting pleasure. It is a traditional ball mouse, and works with PS/2 or USB.
Re:MS Stuff (first real post) (Score:1)
-cp
Re:The Aeron (Score:2)
The most worrying item is the mouse. When i use a GUI for a couple hours or so, my back goes out and then my arm and then my hand. There has got to be a better way! Finally, it is very surprising that telegraph operators never complained about RSI. Either using the bug (key) is ergonomic or other factors come into play in the modern environment.
Fair ergonomic keyboards? (Score:2)
---
Re:Logitech people... (Score:1)
I must agree with the TFT thing as well. Since getting this laptop a year ago, and turning it into my primary (windows) workstation (Thanks USB)
(the laptop itself is more powerful than any other pc i have and i cant afford to upgrade yet) my eyesight has improved and i'm able to look at the screen for longer
Re:Ergo split keyboards worth a try - not for all (Score:1)
Its disgusting (Score:1)
The Aura (Score:1)
It costs $5500. Looking at some of the desks out there today and how much they cost, I'm thinking it's not such a bad idea.
john
Recent Experiences (Score:5)
With that in mind, I was very enthused about a year ago when my employer put together a union/management team to begin changing the workplace and upgrading it to OSHA compliance as far as ergonomics. After lots of meetings, we put over 200 people in full ergo setups and learned a few things along the way. Here's a smattering:
1. Classes in using all these new toys were absolutely necessary. For example, every computer is now on a multi-adjustable corner metier table that makes perfect positioning a snap *after* you've been to class. People who tried to set them up before receiving formal instruction tended to wind up with weird and painful configurations.
2. When picking an adjustable table, make sure the keyboard surface is height- and tilt-adjustable completely separately from the CRT.
3. Those expensive gel-type wrist rests are *wonderful*! Everyone seems to love them.
4. When we bought supplies at a "trial" ratio (getting just a couple of units for every dozen people to try so that we could see who wanted things before committing money), we found that scarcity makes people want things. For example, experience has shown that only about 10 percent of users will actually use a separate foot rest. (Ours are nice ones by Rubbermaid.) Thus, we bought them on a ratio of one to five users and figured they'd get passed around till the people that actually needed them wound up with them. Ha! Not a chance! As soon as the workers saw that these things were going to be scarce, they all suddenly felt a need to latch onto one. The initial shipment went like loaves of bread off the back of a U.N. relief truck and the have-nots have been screaming for the things ever since. (Unfortunately, the money it will take to equip everybody isn't in the budget right now.) I know that when we finally get one for each person, most of them will wind up in a corner, gathering dust. But compliance with the Union agreement trumps all else and we'll have to find the money.
5. As for telephone headsets, I consider them a valuable ergo accessory. Unfortunately, we bungled their distribution the same way as the footrests.
6. Chairs were a huge problem. If you're putting new chairs in a large unionized shop, do what we did: Let the Union pick the chair. People are pretty picky about where they park their butts all day. We knew that whatever we chose would be hated by someone enough for them to file a grievance. By letting the Union do the choosing, management totally avoided the problem. "You don't like your chair? It hurts your back? Sure, you can file a grievance. Just figure out a way to file it against your own Union! Hahahahaha!!!"
7. As a Union member, I oversaw the chair selection. We narrowed the field to about 10 different chairs based on basic OSHA specs and the ability of vendors to meet those specs and get us samples. We then had every employee come into the sample display room in rotation, sit in every chair, and vote. The final selection was a high-backed fully adjustable chair with the name "SuperFurntiture" embossed on the back. I have no idea who actually made the thing, but just about everybody could live with them. They don't have too many adjustments and they don't have any detachable accessories, but everybody can get them into a configuration that's acceptable.
8. Another chair that was available for vote broke during the voting. You know that when a chair back snaps and dumps an employee on their butt right in front of everyone, nobody is going to vote for that one! However, this particular chair was "modular" according to the sales rep. Everything could unplug and be replaced. At first, this looked like a versatile option. We eventually realized, however, that what it really meant was having to buy, warehouse, and install a mind-boggling array of accessories that would make for serious administrative headaches. I was very glad this chair broke and I would counsel people to avoid any such chairs that seem to have been designed by guys who spent too much time playing with Transformers when they were kids.
9. The Aeron chair referenced in the lead-in was a very interesting case. People either loved or hated it. There was almost no in-between. The problem with it is that it's TOO adjustable. It uses a huge wind-up (watch-type? I don't know what to call it.) spring to set the basic firmness of the chair. Loosened up, it's suitable for a 70-pound waif. Tightened up, it's suitable for a 300-pound guy like me. Problems occur, though, when a large person sits down in a chair adjusted for a light person. The chair immediately tips completely back, causing people to catch themselves, bolt out of the chair, and declare it a menace. A large person who just plops down in one of these chairs that's adjusted for a small person may very well find themselves dumped on their back on the floor. This is definitely not a good thing and makes the chair unsuitable for an office where chairs are shared. However, I personally felt it was by far the most comfortable chair when adjusted properly. (That opinion was almost universally shared by people who let me adjust the chair to their weight *before* they sat down. First impressions mean a lot.) If I had to get an ergo chair for myself, this would be my choice.
Equipping a large office to OSHA-compliant levels was expensive and difficult, but our experience in the new office environment convinces us that it's well worth it. In fact, despite the cost, I'm now in the middle of re-equipping my workstation at home. Today the gel-type wrist rest, tomorrow the Aeron!
:-)
Adjustable split keyboard: great for me (Score:1)
The angle and tilt are adjustable for your comfort, and it has a detachable split wrist rest. It lacks the numeric keypad, so your mouse is in a better place (you can get a seperate numeric keypad if you like).
I use it with a Logitech TrackMan Marble trackball, the one with the thumb-operated ball. Mine is an older model with no wheel, which I prefer. It supports the hand in a natural way, and it stays close to my keyboard.
Re:Fair ergonomic keyboards? (Score:1)
The 6 should actually be on the right side of the keyboard, but most ergo keyboards (including the one I'm using to type this) put it on the left. I've gotten so used to this that I find myself typing the 6 with my left hand, even on non-ergo keyboards.
Re:Logitech people... (Score:2)
They aren't much more ergonomic in design, but the Logitech is really nice. After about 10 minutes of using it steadily (try a few games of Solitaire, or Xmines), you'll forget you're even using a mouse... It almost becomes one with your hand.
Intellimouse Explorer (Score:1)
Lesson from Microsoft: Steelcase Criterion chair (Score:2)
I discovered this chair while contracting for Microsoft -- they put all of their employees in it. Liked it so much that I bought one for home. If you work at MS -- even as a contract employee -- you're eligible to buy the Criterion for what MS pays for it. Email furnfac.
Quick'n'easy (Score:1)
Get your chair high, so your forearm is level, put a wristrest on the keyboard (the M$ style ergo keyboards I find do not have a high enough rest area, which is a pity since they are excellent otherwise) the idea is that you type 'down' on the keyboard.
Then get the monitor top at eye-level, (a box full of old manuals works really well here, and can take thew weight). Finally get a really thin mousemat (again, to keep your wrist as level as possible) Just these simple things make a great difference.
I seriously reduced the number of users complaining of cramps and headaches by doing this, and was amused that a 'professional' audit conducted a year later found very little to improve.
EZ
-'Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to log in..'
Ergonomics is hard (Score:3)
Probably one of the contributing factors in my lack of carpal tunnel is the fact that I use five different keyboards regularly. I use them in different positions. I use a variety of software with a variety of different typing patterns. I fear if I were to trying to make all of the various work environments that I use ergonomically correct, and presumably much more similar to each other, that I might do damage because I would develop a similarly bad posture or pattern of use in each one.
Monitor arms (Score:2)
Because of my rather unusual workstation setup, I need an articulated monitor arm. When I first developed the layout, I figured the arm would be easy to find.
Think again! I've scoured local and on-line office supply stores, and have found exactly two places that claim to sell them--Innovative Office Products, and TechRack. And both of those are geared more to large buyers and resellers than to small businesses and individuals. And the prices! Holy moley! I'd love it if someone could recommend another good place to find these things.
I'm looking for something that will hold a 19-inch monitor (about 80 pounds) and a keyboard, and that will work when turned 90 degrees on its mounting. All leads appreciated.
As for other ergonomics, I'd have to agree with the 3-button mouse recommendation; I lean toward Logitech. And a large monitor, and a Dvorak keyboard layout. If I could just get that blasted arm, my workstation would really start to shape up.
Re:Fair ergonomic keyboards? (Score:2)
---
Aeron.. (Score:1)
We've got pretty basic desks, not cubicles, with large work areas (>2ft) in front of our monitors, so we can put books, paper, pens, keyboards, mice, etc out in front of us and not have to deal with shelves. Behind the work space, there is an adjustable shelf to put monitors on, which we have flush with the workspace so the monitors can be moved closer for some of my more myopic colleagues. The system works well.. no wrist pain so far, I think mostly due to the arm rests on the Aeron and the large area to rest my arms on.
//Phizzy
Ergo for multiple heads/multiple computers? (Score:2)
keyboard drawer thingies (Score:1)
However, the desk I'm using right now has what I feel is a really nice keyboard tray. It's like you cut a slightly deeper and longer than keyboard size chunk out of the desk, and put it on rails on each side, which let you adjust up and down.
This way, you can have the keyboard at whatever you feel is the proper height, while having the desk at a fixed height... very nice.
Check out these pictures, if you want to get a better idea: side view (134K) [ctol.net] and top view (148K) [ctol.net].
Also notice that the monitor is propped up on some Scitex training manual thingies... desks that have a monitor stand can't possibly be sized correctly for all the possible monitors it could have.
"Floating Arms" keyboard, Neutral Posture chairs (Score:1)
I LOVE my wireless keyboard (Score:3)
It sits on my lap, or I can plop it down on a blueprint when taking data off a print into CAD, or wherever it is comfortable. I use the Logitech "wireless desktop" which uses radio, not IR, so I don't have to worry about line-of-sight. It is ever so much easier on the wrists than an ordinary wire-bound keyboard sitting up on a desk. When your wrists get tired of having the keyboard here, move it over there. The only thing I don't like is the lack of a keypress "click." Go to a local Office Depot or CompUSA and check it out.
Alas, apparently you can't get the clean-looking original model like I've got any more; instead Logitech now offers one that looks like the original but defaced with ugly little warts all along the top, like the keyboards that come with new Compaq Presarios, HP Pavilions, and other PCs aimed at the home market. (If you use their driver, which I suppose works only under MS OSes, when you tap these warts they fire up your CD player, your Internet browser, and so on.)
It also comes with a wireless three-button-plus-scroll-wheel mouse. I'd prefer a wireless trackball but the mouse is OK. There's a nice blank spot in the upper right corner of the keyboard where a trackball would fit perfectly (hint, hint, Logitech).
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
A solution for lan support and travellers. (Score:2)
A friend of mine, Dana [io.com] wears Soft Flex Gloves [softflex.com]. At about $25 a pair, it's a very cheap portable solution.
It's not the equiptment stupid! (Score:1)
Instead of a $2000 desk, you can attach a $150 keyboard arm to the desk. Have the mouse next to the keyboard so as not to have to reach for it.
The Split keyboards are only useful as long as they can be made to fit you. The MS keyboard did me more harm than good.
What also is important is taking breaks from the keyboard, stretching, positioning, and proper treatment.
RSI injured geek wins against Mattel, Mattel still retaliates! [sorehands.com]
Try a Trackball (Score:2)
HTH,
Pain Free at Your PC (Score:2)
This is an excellent book by Pete Egoscue. He is an anatomical physiologist specializing in remediating and preventing injuries.
The premise is that it's not the fancy (and very expensive) "ergonomic" equipment that makes the difference, it is how you sit, how you type, etc.
For example, I have a "regular" office chair, and my lower back was starting to bother me quite badly. I was getting set to shell out $$ for a fancy ergo chair when I was given this book by a friend. I implemented Egoscues suggestions, and my back pain is now gone, w/o spending big $$ for a fancy chair.
The book costs $10.95, an ergo chair will run $400+. I'd say give the book a shot, first.
Though it doesn't look as cool as some of the sci-fi chairs do. ;-)
Gordon.
ObusForme chairs (Score:2)
So I went on a mission: to find the most confortable chair I could buy. I tried many chair, including the Herman Miller's.
I settled for the knee tilter high back Obus Forme. [globaltotaloffice.com]
The chair is a dream. You can even sleep on it and don't feel tired. It can be used as a rocking chair too
I liked so much that I got one more for my university office.
The main features of the chairs are:
We (my SO and I) paid US$200 each for 2 of these(we landed a good deal). The suggest price is around US$400 and US$500. If you shop for one, make sure you get the knee tilter because the chair is built with central tilting too.
I am thinking about bying one of those chair keyboards and then I'll truly feel like captain of the Enterprise.
Re:MS Stuff (first real post) (Score:1)
What bothers me is that all the quality keyboard makers are jumping on the bandwagon, making it harder for me to find a good keyboard that isn't split (or isn't equipped with "Internet" buttons, or is wireless, or extra crap I don't want).
My current one is a $14 "Nimble" generic special, and my next one will probably be the cheapest LogiTech.
Re:The Aeron (Score:3)
The side-to-side motion used with a bug or electronic keyer is a lot easier on the wrist, though I still wouldn't recommend doing it for hours at a time.
--
Re:The Aeron (Score:1)
Silence, please... (Score:1)
Even a fairly low background noise gets irritating after a while. Remember the good old days when computers had neither power supply nor CPU fans?
I'll be trying the Lap Power [lappower.se] Whisper System [lappower.se] (Sorry, in Swedish only), it's supposed to generate under 24 dBA (quieter than your normal bedroom/living room). I just hope it will fit an ABIT BP6 mobo with 2 celerons!
Does anyone have experience with this case, or other good solutions for having a quiet computer system?
Peddle to Keep Healthy & Pain-Free at your desk (Score:1)
integrate an exercise-bike into the implementation of an office chair that doesn't swivel, so that one can sit use a computer while peddling away.
This might also help one who's working in a cold room (e.g. during cold weather) to keep warm.
If such a product is available, I would like to know about it!
Ergonomic office setup (Score:1)
I have a Steelcase desk with a separate keyboard shelf, jell-filled keyboard and mouse carpal tunnel pads, and a chair with adjustable seat height, arm height and lumbar support. This setup works for me.
The key to avoiding repetitive stress injuries is knowing how these types of injuries occur. It doesn't matter how much ergonomic gear you have if you don't use it properly, or if you don't pay attention to your body.
I use my mouse with my left (non-dominant) hand, to reduce the strain on my right hand. Our company has a massage therapist come in once a week and give 15 minute massages. It helps me to realize what muscles in my hands/wrists/arms/shoulders are getting tweaked so I can take preventitive action early. There is a product called the Cat's Paw, which is neoprene with finger holes in it which I use to stretch/strengthen my wrist muscles. Other folks in my office use jell-filled stress balls or balls with a spinning weight inside. I take martial arts, and do a lot of hand/wrist/arm stretches.
Even with all of this I still experience occasional wrist pain. Recognizing it early and being able to take action has prevented it from ever becoming debilitating for me.
Re:ObusForme chairs (Score:1)
How about no chair at all? (Score:2)
Re:Try a Trackball (Score:1)
I spent September's catnip budget on a trackball for it, and it's been much happier since.
Meow
Finnish office equipment. (Score:1)
IT and Office magazines that Martela has a really good line of
office-equipment that are really economic. Check out their
website at www.martela.fi [martela.fi]
--
Slashdotted... (Score:1)
gives
500 Server Error
The hard transfer limit for this user has been reached
Anybody mirror this puppy?
-eddy
Re:Recent Experiences (Score:3)
A: Not *everyone* likes gell wrist rests. I dislike wrist rests of any kind. i find them restrictive and uncomfortable.
B: Wrist rests are *bad* for you. Resting your wrist on something, no matter how soft, encourages you to use your wrist and hand muscles to swivle your hand around to reach keys. It is *Far* better to practice pianist-like posture and simply use your arms to move your hands around.
I endured 6 years of piano lessons when i was young. I'm a network administrator by day and avid computer geek by night. I spend more time typing than sleeping, and the only wrist strain i experience is from using pointing devices.
Why? Because if you get your knuckles smacked with a ruler enough times you learn to keep your wrists *Up*.
On the subject of pointing devices, I'm most happy with my Logitech Trackman FX. This is the weird angular one with the large trackball. Try it some time. It doesn't force a right-handed person to rotate their wrist to operate it.
Remember the basics? (Score:1)
Just my two cents here. (Score:1)
Best Chair: La-Z-Boy (Score:1)
Re:Pain Free at Your PC (Score:1)
Interesting. After reading the other posts, I was beginning to get the feeling that I'm the only one who hates ergonomic keyboards and who type for hours on end on a traditional keyboard without any pains. It is definitely true that what matters is how you sit, how you type, and in my case, how far the keyboard is away from me.
What I do is very simple: my keyboard (which is a traditional non-ergonomic type), lies towards the far side of my desk. When I type, my wrists and elbows rest on the desk, and my arms are relaxed. I find that this makes a BIG difference from having the keyboard just in front of me. Having the keyboard at a comfortable distance seems to cure all my crampy and achy problems.
However, the mouse still causes me a lot of grief, especially if I use it for long periods of time. The uncomfortable, cramped-up configuration of my hand while holding the mouse is really painful after a while. I suppose I really should get a newer mouse with a rounder, higher shape (mine is an old traditional somewhat flat mouse). But the problem is, my elbow has nowhere to rest when I'm holding the mouse, so my wrists really start to hurt after a while. Perhaps it's time to move my desk lamp elsewhere so that I can put my mouse the same distance as my keyboard... :-)
Old Style IBM Keyboard (Score:1)
WeirdCow
none at all (Score:2)
for over 12 years now, and I've never had any
problems. There are a lot of companies out their
who would love to see you buy all the ergonomic
gadgets they can come up with.
But I really think you just shouldn't sit in the
same position for too long. Don't get me wrong
I think it's a good thing that we're thinking
about the problems and are taking actions.
But how far will this thing go? Are we going to
sit in a special seat where you can't even move
freely about? I really don't think that these
gadgets will bring the solution.
personally I train my arms and fingers with the
simplest of things I have lying around on my desk.
Like pencils or little balls etc.
as I've said 12 years and not one day of pain,
I'm not going to spend my money on those things.
They will not help me, if you think they will
be of any help to you I think you should get them.
Rob A.
The Answer is always simple.
Re:MS Stuff (first real post) (Score:1)
Finally someone who doesn't think all of these "internet" buttons are great!
Mikael Jacobson
Personally I use an old IBM keyboard from '84 (you know, the ones that make _lots_ of noise)
Re:MS Stuff (first real post) (Score:1)
1. buy a gel wrist rest which is not permanently mounted on a stupid plastic base (leaving it free to follow the contour of the built-in wrist rest
2. cut the built-in wrist rest with a hacksaw to straighten it out (make sure to open the keyboard up first though so you know where the circuitry stops!!!) and then sand down the sharp edge you've cut. Then you can use a normal wrist rest (or a funky gel one like the kensington sports ones) with it. If you cut at a bit of an angle (so that the bottom is more deeply cut in than the top) I found that the wrist rest slides up against it nicely. I did this to an old M$ natural v1 keyboard and it works nicely.
The two things I haven't tried are (1) attaching a gel wrist rest on top of the built-in one (you can't just buy one and set it on top since it is too high, you'd have to cut it up and get rid of lots of the gel and somehow put it back together) and (2) those funky sunken keyboards like the Maltron and the Kinesys.
Does anyone have any experience with either?
IntelliMouse Explorer awkward (Score:1)
I now use the IntelliMouse with IntelliEye, which has the more standard MS mouse shape. It's great; sliding friction is much lower than with a standard mouse.
Re:Is that those chairs where you kneel onto them? (Score:1)
Make _sure_ however you are looking at the _real_ Stokke chairs...there are a bunch of _really_ cheap knockoffs out there which are probably worse for you than falling and breaking your neck.
Looks design.
I have an ancient Balans at home, I picked up at a swap meet for $25 from someone who didn't know any better (they sell for around $300). I love it, and ended up getting a HAG for my office at work.
Everyone makes fun of it, but at least my back, neck and head don't ache. I took a class recently where we were stuck in cheapo classroom chairs for 8 hrs a day. After two days I was waking up with horrific migraines.
Re:Logitech people... (Score:1)
Re:MS Stuff (first real post) (Score:2)
On the original subject, my desk is an old-fashioned, solid hardwood executive desk I picked up for $200 at a used office furniture warehouse. Ergonomically, it leaves a little to be desired, since the keyboard is not at the "proper" height, but when I'm heavy into a large project, having 2 square meters of desk space is invaluable (The desk is 1x2 meters) I've got the monitor on one of those swing-arm mounts so it doesn't take up any desk space. And, I've got all the drawer space I need.
Now I just need a good chair that won't send my accounts into shock. I love the Aeron, but there's no way I can afford one.
Logitech mice (Score:1)
But seriously folks, the 'WedgeMouse' as it's known by the locals, is worth picking up if you don't believe in trackballs.Otherwise, the Trackman Marble that many posters seem to have been recommending wins.
Re:How about no chair at all? (Score:1)
Re:MS Stuff (first real post) (Score:1)
I also have an Intellimouuse Explorer. Some good things are the number of buttons and the fact that you can assign just about any task to them. Two bad things - it seems a little big for an average hand, and the second thumb button is just about useless. It's positioned toward the front of the mouse (toward the wire) in regard to the main thumb button, and is just about unreachable unless you rest your hand entirely on the top of the mouse, which is very uncomfortable. It should be located beneath (towards the desk) the main thumb button. Apart from that, it's great - very smooth, and you can throw away your mouse pads.
Re:Wow (Score:1)
Re:The Aeron (Score:3)
The "butt keyboard" (not a troll.) (Score:1)
Wouldn't work for me cause I can't touch-type, and I imagine that the regular keyboard would be better for anything where you were using the mouse as much as the keys (maybe for a late xmas present I'll try to rig him up a foot controlled mouse... no, wouldn't work with the ergo-chair) but still pretty cool.
Will leave it up to him (he reads here) to decide if he wants to post the url and risk the /. effect or not.
Anyone here hacked your own hardware when they didn't sell something to your ergo standards?
The "butt keyboard" (not a troll.) (Score:1)
Wouldn't work for me cause I can't touch-type, and I imagine that the regular keyboard would be better for anything where you were using the mouse as much as the keys (maybe for a late xmas present I'll try to rig him up a foot controlled mouse... no, wouldn't work with the ergo-chair) but still pretty cool.
Will leave it up to him (he reads here) to decide if he wants to post the url and risk the /. effect or not.
Re:Monitor arms (Score:1)
more questions... (Score:1)
What I have been looking for specifically is a wrap-around sort of desk, like in Zero Effect or the Matrix, that would comfortably and spaciously hold 3 21" monitors and a large laptop. It looks like its possible to construct something pretty neat from anthro [anthro.com], but they dont seem to want to return my emails...
Does anyone out there have any experience or suggestions?
thanks,
chris
IntelliMouse Explorer... (Score:1)
Re:Logitech people... (Score:1)
Strangely, there is no Fry's website. They do own the frys.com domain (apparently for mail [frys.com]), but I can't find any publicly accessible pages.
Recline those ergo woes away (Score:1)
Re:Silencing hard disk caddys (Score:1)
The Whisper system I wrote about supposedly has some sort of special hard disk caddy to dampen the hard disk noise. I imagine that an absorbing material which prevents the vibrations from spreading to the chassis might do a lot of good.
Re:Active chairs (Score:2)
Another active chair is the PostureBall [postureball.com], which is basically a large (65 cm diameter) rubber ball like the ``Swiss balls'' used in physical therapy and exercise programs [fitball.com]. You inflate it, then sit on it and let air out 'til your hips are just slightly higher than your knees. Because it's a ball, you have to use lots of muscles in your back and legs that don't get used with regular chairs to keep yourself stable. Plus you can roll around a bit (like rocking, but in any direction), and lean back and stretch out your spine, along with some other exercises. Oh, yes -- you can bounce up and down on it!
I've had it for about seven months, and I think it's helped my posture (and my back) quite a bit. I chose the PostureBall over a kneeler chair (which my SO uses) for three reasons: (1) all the kneeler chairs we could find locally were cheap-looking and ugly (my SO's chair was made by a small company in Victoria, BC, that's no longer in business); (2) I felt that the kneeler chairs put too much weight on my knees; and (3) the PostureBall was only US$45 -- we figured that if it didn't work out, it was cheap enough that we could keep it as a conversation piece. :) (It looks like the Fitball people have pretty much the same balls for less money; if you're interested, you might consider going that route.)
As for desks, I use an Ikea Effectiv desk. It's very basic -- essentially it's a table -- but it can be adjusted for height and is modular, with many different shapes and sizes of table tops available. (Mine is very long -- 240 cm (94 in) -- to provide space for our printer and some reference books.)
I also have an Ikea Jerker desk, which is currently in the States. The Jerker is much more adjustable than the Effectiv, but is definitely more of a computer desk than a general purpose desk.
My experience with the Aeron chair (Score:1)
Everyone in my department at work got one of the Aeron chairs. Me, the department lacky even managed to steal one a few months ago. When I first saw them I thought they were the coolest thing. After using one for quite awhile I'm not that impressed.
While I'm not going to knock the chairs that much, I'm still much happier with the $200 leather executive chair I got for home. At home I squish right in without a care in the world. At work I'm constantly fidgeting and trying to find a comfortable position. I'm very pleased to have the chair at work, it's much better than something like one of those cheap kindergarten plastic chairs but overall I prefer my nice leather executive chair at home.
As far as ergonomics go, I'm not the greatest person to ask. A few years ago I fractured my back and have a hard time sitting in a "ergonomic" postion. The only relief I feel is if I slack down in my chair. The doctors have told me it's not the best thing to do, but if I try to sit right I end up with an unbearable pain after a few hours. So my opinions on the ergonomicity (is that a word?) of the chair may not suit everyone.
Anyways, if your company can afford them, I think they're great chairs, but for me, I'd certainly prefer a nice leather executive chair. Better yet, one of those leather recliners with the massager's in them, add a refrigerator, a toilet, and an mp3 player. As long as it reclines enough for me to sleep, I won't even go home.
LiNT
Re:Logitech people... (Score:1)
1) use larger muscles whenever possible
BTW, this is also why it is recommended never to rest your wrists while you type. Keeping the wrists up allows forearm movement to do some of the work of typing.
Any mouse work that requires click and drag or lots of double clicking is asking for lots of trouble.
Look at Biomorph. (Score:1)
Biomorph's Web Site [biomorph-desk.com]
Internet buttons, volume controls, on keyboards. (Score:1)
When you hit one of those nontraditional keys, does it just send back a scancode like any other? Some laptops are now coming with stupid extra buttons too, do those work in the same way?
I'm using an IBM clickmonster myself. I finally ditched my old faithful Logitech C-7 series mouse for a $20 Logitech wheel mouse, which I absolutely adore. I want to replace my PgUp and PgDn keys with a wheel now. Maybe my up/down arrows too, with a different acceleration factor.
There's a thought: Is it possible to attach multiple pointing devices to a PC, and map one of them to keyboard functions (have it behave as arrow keys) while leaving the other one with control over the pointer? Then I'll get a foot-trackball..
I agree with the previously stated thoughts on split keyboards only working for a certain typing style. Is there such a thing as a split Dvorak?
The point of a wheel mouse... (Score:1)
A wheel is actually pretty natural for scrolling. With PgUp/PgDn, the distance you move is determined by the number of times you hit the key. I find that it's more natural to whiz the wheel a larger or smaller amount. (Altho for continuous scrolling, I wish there was something like key-repeat. Perhaps hold/toggle a button and use the wheel to adjust the velocity?)
Five buttons is just plain silly. I wouldn't mind if they'd move the middle button out from under the wheel (trying to click it, I always move the wheel too), but I'm just fine with 3 buttons.
I agree, the original Logitech square "pack of cigarettes" C-4 and C-7 mice were great. Durable as all hell, easily cleaned, good resolution.. If they'd made it possible for the user to replace the cord without breaking the warranty seal, I'd love 'em even more.
built in massage (Score:1)
My fave has gotta be the "Concorde [backbenimble.com] - Fly high with latest ergonomic technology at the push of a button. Now with Relaxor/Pulsor Vibro-Tactile Massage!" Now all I need to do is remortgage my house!
Scraggles.
Re:keytable is happy to swap Ctrl and CapsLock (Score:1)
(Haven't tested it myself though, I just got used to where my keys are :-)
It costs $5k but it's worth it... (Score:1)
Habit forming (Score:1)
Ergonomics essentials (Score:3)
(i) A decent sized desk with enough room to have the keyboard and monitor straight in front of you *and* enough left over to have a standard letter sized sheet of paper in front of that. All too often I've had to work at a shallow desk where because of the depth of the monitor, and the desk being pushed up against a wall or another desk, I've had to have the monitor off to the side. And free space on either side too for your manuals and notepad etc.
(ii) A good keyboard. I don't like too much cleverness in keyboards. The classic KeyTronic KYB601 is my choice. Their new "ergonomic" KT2001 sucks rocks.
(iii) A good quality mouse. It should be the right size and shape to fit the hand in its resting position. I quite like the Microsoft Intellimouse myself. Even the old classic MS "Dove bar" mouse wasn't half bad. Watch out though, the OEM version isn't made to the same high quality as the proper retail version, and it shows.
(iv) A good quality high res monitor. If you need to have several windows open at a time you need 1600x1200 to avoid unnecessary mouse movement. At that resolution you need a 19inch diagonal or bigger. And the refresh rate has to be 75Hz or more, and small fonts should be clearly readable.
Oh yeah, and (v): A nearby vending machine with chocolate bars in it
If I've got all those things then just about any standard adjustable office chair will do. Wrist rests? Pah.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Switch to a ball instead of a conventional chair? (Score:2)
Quick description. With a convention chair, your back muscles lock into place once your sit down. If you don't take your RSI breaks regularly, that means that your back muscles may be flexed in the same position for several hours, resulting in strain and pain. (yada, yada, yada.)
In contrast, using a mediball, which fundamentally is simply a large inflated ball, forces the back and legs to be continually making micro-adjustments to keep yourself erect. As a result, your muscles keep moving and don't lock up; resulting in less back pain and a substantially stronger and healthier back.
The downside is that it takes a few weeks to physically adjust; initially, your back muscles aren't strong enough to handle more than half-an-hour or so at a time. But you quickly adjust and now I can use my ball full time, resulting in what I feel has been a significant improvement to my personal health.
One other advantage: a mediball costs under $100; a nice saving versus a conventional ergo chair.
There's more propaganda about them at:
http://www.healthtrek.net/ [healthtrek.net]
Blatant trackball plug... (Score:1)
Now, if I could just find a Linux driver for it...(sigh) There's as much chance of my being able to *write* a driver as there is of flying to the moon in my pickup truck.
Re:Silence, please... (Score:1)
(Before anyone says something: Yes, I do have a life)
Re:Switch to a ball instead of a conventional chai (Score:1)
The Swiss ball idea is interesting, but it seems to me that one could achieve the same effect by taking a secretary's chair (swivel chair on casters, no arms) and removing the back; older chairs have adjustable-height backs that can be pulled entirely out of the chair seat. Not only might this be cheaper, it would look a little less odd to coworkers than sitting on an inflated spheroid might.
Re:I'm Sitting in an Aeron right now (Score:1)
Indeed, in the chair selection session I attended everyone chose this "other" chair (can't remmebr the name) as we did not have an Aeron at the time - now I find myself longing for that chair as well, but at the time I had seen them in other offices but not had the chance to try one for a while.
Yes! Only Chair with Fully Adjustable Seat Angle (Score:2)
There is a useful book, Compute In Comfort, by Paul Linden, a phys. ed. Ph.D. and martial artist who has intensively studied movement and posture. His main rap is that you can greatly reduce stress by becoming aware of how your body feels, and adjusting your position so that your skeleton carries the weight directly (good posture), instead of having weight hanging off-axis, held by constant muscle tension (bad posture). This balancing is achieved by the proper pelvic tilt, which controls the curvature of the lower back. He advises sitting on different wedge-shaped pads to feel how relaxing it is to the back when you find the best seat angle. Since you need to change position, you need to change seat angle. Linden claims that this is the most important parameter in a chair. To remain comfortable longer, the shape of your back should be established by the angle of the seat, not just the chair back.
Of the current Herman Miller and Steelcase lines, only the Criterion lets you tilt the seat as desired and then lock it at that angle. The Aeron and Leap chairs let the seat tilt down-in-front, for leaning forward, but lock in only two positions.
One thing to consider is that the older chairs are much more solidly built, so you could get a used one and still expect a long life from it. I found broken plastic parts and broken seat tilt locks on both top-of-the-line all-plastic chairs, Aeron and Leap, this despite the Aeron's twelve-year warranty.
Here are my observations:
Aeron (Herman Miller): Very confortable to lean back in- doesn't tend to pull your shirt out or create pressure under the thighs due to its sophisticated linkage system with the main pivot near the knees. Three sizes. Arms adjust to different heights and different angles in the horizontal plane, but arm-arm distance is fixed.
Lumbar pad slides up and down; plastic was worn and it wouldn't stay put. Seat tilt locks in normal or forward position (except it didn't work). Back tilt can be set to stop at choice of three angles. Seat is woven material in tension, like a hammock; very comfortable lack of pressure spots, but pelvic tilt is undeterministic. $750.
Equa 2 (Herman Miller): Very comfortable and strongly constructed. A contender. Three sizes. Seat and back are one-piece fiberglass shell, seat and back flex independently, providing support in different sitting positions. Arms adjust in height, spacing, and angle. Inflatable lumbar support adjustable up-and-down. Main seat pivot is near the knees. Can be locked in upright position. Also available as simpler bent-tube-frame model.
Leap (Steelcase): Their answer to the Aeron. Of surprisingly thin plastic construction. Flexible one-piece plastic back has adjustable curvature for low back firmness control, but it wouldn't lock in place. Front of seat can tilt down for sitting forward, but this control also was broken. Arms adjust in height, spacing, and angle, but rattled around a bit in locked position. Salesman didn't want to tell me how much they were asking for this turkey.
Criterion (Steelcase): Very comfortable and strong. Seat can be locked at any desired tilt angle; so can back. Back adjusts up-down and seat adjusts forward-back for perfect fit. Couldn't crank the recliner spring as stiff as I would like. Arms adjust in height and spacing, but not angle. One size. A strong contender.
Sensor (Steelcase): Quite comfortable, solid, older design. Three sizes. Back adjusts up-down, different recline limit stops. Contoured seat tilts from center. Arms adjust in height, apacing, not angle. Also needs a stiffer spring for reclining.
Re:The Aeron (Score:1)
Just a whole hearted agreement! Incredibly wonderful, wonderful chair.
For my part, the lack of added heat is a real boon. Don't need it when I'm hot, if it's a bit chilly, i add clothes like anyone should. :)
--p
Re:Peddle to Keep Healthy & Pain-Free at your desk (Score:2)
Oh, you mean like the ExecuCizer from Woody Allen's film Bananas?
Schwab
Re:The Aeron (Score:1)
Steelcase LEAP site" [steelcase.com] only thing is when you buy, you have to choose everything: fabric, color, armrest style...
you get what you pay for, invest wisley. better chairs offer you better adjustability.
There are other chairs as comfy at a cheaper price. If you are shopping for a chair, I have a few tips to offer:
1. because a chair is expensive, it doen;t mean its good. i have seen crappy chairs at the office superstores far more expensive than a good 'designer' chair (aeron, leap, parachute etc...)
2. buddy up with an architect or interior designer. Get their old copies of Contract Interiors or similar trade magazines. Look at the pictures and the reviews. they don;t oftem have LAN type furniture, but use the ideas you see. there is no excuse to have a dumpy shack!
3. buy the said buddy pizza, beer, fifi coffees, whatever. the dirty little secret the a/e design profession has is that the dealers sell to the designers direct at like a 50%-60% discount, its a 'courtesy discount.' if your business card has the word 'engineer' on it, they might have them get the chair/table for you. realize that interior designers often buy the furniture and sell to their clients, its their business so don;t overdo the favor
good luck
Poor biomorph desk, they are slashdotted ! (Score:1)
I tried accessing http://www.biomorph-desk.com/ and it seemed they have been slashdotted.
Is there any alternative sites that I can go find out more about ergonomic furnitures?
Thanks in advance.
Re:Ergonomics is a complete and total FRAUD (Score:1)
I mean, I think that ergo keyboards are crap, but I really don't see how they're liberal. They're keyboards, and not even good ones.
Also, having fucked up my wrists this summer, I really dispute your assertion that people who've written about similar injuries are "shills" and that their injuries are nonexistent. I'm assuming that you've never damaged your wrists while coding; it isn't fun.
Chair: Balans Wing (Score:1)
My experiences: First, I'm slender and weigh in at around 130 lbs., so don't ask me how Balans chairs work for those with greater mass or different body types. Clearly there is something to be said for having weight transferred to the front of my shins.
Sitting in this chair is *real different*, and takes some getting used to. Funny thing, this design promotes *good* posture. I habitually slouch when sitting in regular chairs much of the time.
In this chair, sometimes I do slouch, and sometimes not, I spin back and forth, rest feet on the knee rest, and otherwise seem a little fidgety, but I'm *not* uncomfortable. Just like the philosophy extolled on the above web site, this chair promotes movement. You don't vegetate in a Balans chair, nor take a nap either! This might be a way to talk your boss into springing for the cost of this Scandinavian designed/built chair. Mine is top quality, built to last, and pleasing to the eye.
I suspect this one falls into the religious/love/hate category. Like I said before, it's *real different*.
Try a standing desk ... (Score:1)
I found this to be a surprisingly comfortable setup, and recently had a custom desk built to my needs. I can stand and work for several hours at a time. For telephone calls, reading, or other non-computer activities, I move to a chair in my office.
The result: no back pain, great posture, and standing keeps my attention from wandering
Ergonomics just delays the pain... (Score:1)
The main ideas Egoscue presents are:
1) Human beings need motion to survive- as much as we need food and shelter.
2) One of our traits (he says we developed 3.2M years ago) is that our brains shut off muscles we aren't using; this is an energy saving mechanism that in the wild could have meant the difference between life and death.
3) We don't move enough- most of us drive, few of us walk or exert ourselves.
The book is arranged in a very practical way- the first 3 chapters describe basic concepts regarding the function of the body. Chapters 4-12 go through the major joints of the body from the ankles to the neck. Each chapter offers specific information about that particular joint as well as specific exercises to alleviate pain. Chapter 13 is a conditioning/maintenance chapter that he suggests everyone should do.
The pain relief from the first day I did the exercises for Hand/Elbow pain was worth the cost of the book. He's on the web at www.egoscue.com [egoscue.com].
Re:Active chairs (Score:1)
My Balans Wing (TM) is missing an adjustment or two from the more refined Stokke version (drool). IMHO, the hydraulic lift adjustment, castors, ability to spin, and rocking back and forth a little bit are necessary features for making the Balans design deliver on its promise. For me, cheap knock-off's or budget models don't cut it in the Balans chair dept.
Using a Balans is, well, *different*. An acquired taste, if you will. For me, it doesn't *force* good posture (I'm bad about slouching), but I'm often moving about a lot, and do find myself sitting up straight more often.
One last thing: Zzzz, klonk, ouch, dang!, mumble: "don't think they'll put these things in bars..."
Re:Monitor arms (Score:2)
I was hoping to find some kind of articulated thing similar to a lamp arm (but with beefier springs and joints of course
Best of luck!
Your Working Boy,