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The Almighty Buck Government The Courts News

Suing for Overtime? 65

Posted by Cliff from the for-all-those-unpaid-hours-of-hard-work dept.
An unidentified submitter asks: "There is a federal law that requires all non programmer-type jobs be compensated for overtime. Last year, over the course of a year, I have worked 500 hours of overtime without comp time, bonus, or paid overtime. I have since left the company, and currently I am attempting to sue the company for lost wages. Has anyone ever been in a similar situation, and do they have any advice/tips? Also is anyone aware of good computer/IT labor attorneys?"
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Suing for Overtime? More

Suing for Overtime?

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  • programmer-type? (Score:3, Informative)

    by MattCohn.com ( 555899 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @07:47PM (#5587253)
    "programmer-type"?

    What would that meen. Do Network Administrators fall in that catigory? How about website developers? Website designers? I'm wondering, how is it defined, and where is the line drawn?

  • Start by... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SoCalChris ( 573049 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @07:48PM (#5587265) Journal
    I would start by making sure I had documentation of all of the hours I had worked and was suing for. I'm not sure how you would prove it otherwise.

    Also, if you are working in an exempt position, you're probably screwed since bonuses & comp time aren't typically legally required by the company. Good luck though.
  • I think you will soon find that your emloyer considers that they factored in 'compensation' into your original package. At least that's what they "normally" do in Australia.

    Perhaps the courts aren't your best recourse in this climate.

    • Re:compensation != (dollars*hours) (Score:4, Interesting)

      by arb ( 452787 ) <amosba AT gmail DOT com> on Monday March 24, 2003 @07:55PM (#5587309) Homepage
      I think you will soon find that your emloyer considers that they factored in 'compensation' into your original package. At least that's what they "normally" do in Australia.

      True - to a point. Packages are normally deemed to include consideration for "a reasonable amount of unpaid overtime". To the best of my knowledge, there have been no real challenges to determine what constitutes reasonable. I know some unions were trying to define it as being no more than 5-10 hours per week for short periods of time. (ie, not 10 hours per week, every week.)
      • The problem with unions trying to do that is they'll end up setting very specific limits: for example, 40-hour work weeks with 5 hours overtime. Net result will be that everyone will have to work that much, all the time. I think most people are willing to work overtime where reasonable; for example, if someone is sick or otherwise unavailable, other people need to step up and pick up the slack. And while we'd obviously prefer to be paid for the overtime, I think most people would be willing to do it "for

        • Net result will be that everyone will have to work that much, all the time

          Easy fix: make it illegal to fire an employee for refusing excess overtime.. say 2 hours per week, or 40 hours total in any 90 day period. If the employee is OK with it, no problem.

          As it should be anyway. If an employee needs to work overtime regularly, something's wrong: a) the employer is a tightarse and should hire sufficient people for the task, b) the employee is imcompetant and needs to be replaced with someone better. As it

          • Easy fix: make it illegal to fire an employee for refusing excess overtime.. say 2 hours per week, or 40 hours total in any 90 day period. If the employee is OK with it, no problem.

            There is still a potential problem. If I'm the boss and you refuse overtime and I can't fire you, I can still make life miserable for you. Suddenly you get the boring task that nobody else wants to undertake. Somehow you get "forgotten" when it comes time to hand out bonuses or other perks. Forget that promotion. And so o
            • I guess that's where unions come in. Everyone that fits a certain job description gets equal treatment, equal pay, and equal opporunity to advance.

              Unions can be real bastards, but when employers are being bigger bastards, what do they expect?

        • Except that I need some extra cash, but I work on a team, and if one guy isn't there, than none of us can work. (I'm in construction, many jobs require at least 3 guys, sometimes more) In most other jobs there are deadlines that need to be met. It needs to work both ways, the company needs to be reasonable (if the guy who doesn't want to work just wants to go home and drink, that is different from watching the kids), but so do the workers. If there is a deadline, then I don't have a problem working late

  • intel is having a few problems with its hire fire stratergy. The ex employees are taking a class action against the company over the "UNPAID OVERTIME" (Sorry but the website goes a little ott on the capitals)
    • intel [faceintel.com] is having a few problems with its hire fire stratergy. The ex employees are taking a class action against the company over the "UNPAID OVERTIME" (Sorry but the website goes a little ott on the capitals)

  • In California (Score:4, Interesting)

    by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @07:58PM (#5587335)
    In my field, in CA if you make $78k or more you are considered to be in a "management" position, and are not eligible for overtime. I believe the requirement is that a skilled field in a "management" level.

    There are two classifications of overtime-- there are "exempt" and "non-exempt" employees.

    Before you try and sue someone, check your time cards! If you didn't indicate on the time card that you worked overtime (and signed it), then you have lied... good luck getting any money! If the time is documented, but not paid, you have a chance.

    • Not always true. I worked for a company where we were sued for back overtime. When it went to court, we lost because we hadn't been tracking the persons time (no time card). This was a branch manager position, and the company's standpoint was that the manager worked 40 hours a week. But we didn't have proof that they didn't work more than that, so when they came up with a list of dates/times where they worked, we had to either prove they didn't work then, or pay. In this case, the state dept. of labor actua
    • Before you try and sue someone, check your time cards! If you didn't indicate on the time card that you worked overtime (and signed it), then you have lied... good luck getting any money!
      Indeed. If your salary was contributed to by any gov't contracts, prepare for the auditors. (I recommend a heavy water-based lubricant, such as KY Jelly.)

      The IRS might also be interested for all those hours the company received as income "under the table".

  • Related article... (Score:3, Informative)

    by waffle zero ( 322430 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @08:19PM (#5587451) Journal

    ... altough some could argue repeated.

    Are Coders Exempt From California's Overtime Laws? [slashdot.org]

    • I don't think so. A friend of mine in CA sued his former employer over a bonus he was owned when he was laid off and got it. AFAIK only management is exempt from this law.
      • Cost Plus lost a class-action lawsuit filed by managers for not paying them overtime.

        I've always heard "it doesn't apply to managers", but sometimes it does.

        http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2 00 2/09/30/daily54.html
  • Welcome to the new slavery. If you are an IT worker in this economy, chances are your employer is using it to abuse you. You're not going anywhere, right? So I guess you wouldn't mind working 14 hours a day for the forseeable future.

    • Re:IT jobs (Score:2, Insightful)

      by LinuxXPHybrid ( 648686 )
      I've been working as a software developer, but I never had chance to meet and speak with customers, end-users in my previous jobs. Now that I meet and speak with these people, I find that they have practically no clue whatsoever how much we work to accomplish a certain task. Even though the work I do raises productivity greatly and/or cuts operation cost greatly, they do not see how our digital work equates to their analog work.

      I am guessing that law makers are also thinking like this; they don't get. P

  • AOL! (Score:2)

    by gr ( 4059 )
    Hrm. I've been putting in some rather excessive hours as a sysadmin, especially lately in moving systems into a new data center.

    My company also lacks any official overtime (for salaried employees) or comp time (for anyone) policies. In theory we have time cards... but they're electronic, and are only filed by salaried employees in order to judge billing of clients. Since nothing I do is directly billable to clients, I don't (nor does any one else in my--the IT--department, who have shared those excessive
    • If you are not required to keep a time card, a consistent written journal would serve as sufficient documentation.

    • Re:AOL! (Score:2, Informative)

      by Yonder Way ( 603108 )
      I'm in the same boat.

      Were this a different economy, I'd probably push the issue knowing that if I lost the fight I'd be able to go somewhere that had fair compensation policies.

      Preliminary research shows that IT managers can choose to compensate excessive overtime via flat fee bonuses or comp time, but probably should not be paid on an hourly basis. The dilemma for employers who really want to do right by their employees is that overtime compensation for exempt employees can threaten the employee's exemp
    • Mine's shorter than yours! ;)

  • Are we left to assume you were paid hourly? (Score:4, Informative)

    by one9nine ( 526521 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @08:41PM (#5587574) Journal
    Were you a salaried employee? If so I don't think you stand much of a chance unless you wrote down your hours and had a manager sign them (which very rarely happens if you are on salary).

    If you were a contactor and/or paid by the hour, with all due respect, why in the hell did you not bring this up with your employeer immediately. Why did you work 500 hours (over three monts worth) and not say anything until you got fired (excuse me, "left the company")?

    Every place I worked where I was paid by the hour made me specify how many regular hours I worked and how many overtime hours I worked with a clear explaination of the overtime policy right above where you sign the time sheet.

    I and thousands of us here have been screw over by an employer (or two, or three), but this is unfortunately is your own damn fault.

  • If you'd been paid that overtime, you'd have paid more income taxes, right?

    Give the tax collection agencies a call. Most of them have a tips hotline.

    Also call the national department of labor, and your state's department of labor.

    I will note that based on stories related to me, this sort of fraud seems to be common in the Resterant industry. The stories I've heard were from a waiter who turend in each of his ex-employers to the state, and collected fat back wage checkes each time. Perhaps you should rese

  • Targeted Advertising (Score:4, Informative)

    by linuxwrangler ( 582055 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @08:50PM (#5587642)

    WOW! /.'s target advertising is brilliant.

    As I read this topic on overtime the banner ad has links for:

    Time Card/Overtime Calculator Software" [timecalc.com] to help you track it,

    Woodley and McGillivary overtime lawyers [wmlaborlaw.com] and
    Edwards and George overtime lawyers [overtimelawyer.com] to help you sue for it and

    Career Builders [careerbuilder.com] to help you find a new job when you are done with the lawyers.

  • Federal Law? (Score:3, Informative)

    by DeComposer ( 551766 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @08:56PM (#5587678) Journal
    There are an awful lot of salaried, non-manangement people who've been working bazillions of hours of unpaid overtime.

    AFAIK, this is fully permitted by law; overtime pay is specified in the terms of their employment contracts.

    If you know of a specific federal law that mandates pay, regardless of exempt status, I (and 60 million other salary-slaves) would certainly appreciate a link to the relevant law.

  • oh, these post-ironic times (Score:5, Funny)

    by Jamie Zawinski ( 775 ) <jwz@jwz.org> on Monday March 24, 2003 @09:10PM (#5587776) Homepage

    Currently the top two articles on "Ask Slashdot" are:

    • Suing for Overtime?
    • Improving Company Morale?

    That's funny, that is.

  • My advice (Score:3, Insightful)

    by inflexion ( 3981 ) on Monday March 24, 2003 @09:51PM (#5587987) Homepage Journal
    My advice is this: quit being such a whiney gayhole. Did you have a contract with the company saying you would get paid overtime? No. You worked the extra hours to get the job done and that's what everyone in interesting professional jobs does. If you were a garbage man then I might be able to see your point...you would expect to be paid per hour worked. But a software position is more task oriented. By that, I mean instead of being expected to work 40 hour/week, you're expected to finish 1 project per quarter (or whatever arbitrary number your manager decides someone in your position should be capable of). If you can't complete the number of required projects in the time given then there's no question: you MUST work overtime and not expect to be compensated for it!

    • Re:My advice (Score:3, Insightful)

      by dubl-u ( 51156 )
      Did you have a contract with the company saying you would get paid overtime? No. You worked the extra hours to get the job done and that's what everyone in interesting professional jobs does.

      True, but there's generally an implicit quid pro quo. I used to work for financial traders, where 50-hour weeks were considered normal, and a few times I ended up working 50-hour days. But I never fretted about it; it was the deal I signed up for, and I knew that they'd take care of me, especially at bonus time.

      Anoth
  • You should try the labor board, it isn't fast, but neither is the court system. You file a complaint against the company, they determine if you are professional or not, as in job position. They investigate the company, and they check all the employees not just your times. If they discover you are due overtime they fine the company and force them to pay you the overtime.

    They have guidlines for what a professional position is. Give it a shot...its free.

    • Is this anonymous? What are the implications for the complaintant when going to the labor board? Are there any guarantees of continued employment, or is it a one-time bridge burning?
      • Is this anonymous?

        Do not believe so. Since you are accusing them of violating labor laws they are allowed to know who accused them. If you are no longer working for them, then it shouldn't be a big deal.

        What are the implications for the complaintant when going to the labor board?

        That they were working you more than 40 hours a week in a non professional position without overtime or compensation.

        Are there any guarantees of continued employment, or is it a one-time bridge burning?

        Realisticly or th
        • Nono.. I'm just asking for a friend... ;-)
        • Although there may be a few comanies that are honest and just didn't know, of course these would be few and far between. This type of fantasy company would have no problem with it. For the rest of them, they will come up with any reason possible to fire you or lay you off.

          I don't run my own company, but if I did I would like to think that I would be one of these fantasy bosses, as I firmly believe that the carrot is a more effective motivator than the stick.

          However, if an employee put me in that position
  • Why oh why does Slashdot keep running this kind of drivel. If you have an employment dispute, or a possible employment dispute, CALL A %$^! LAWYER. Pick up the phone and call his or her secretary and make an appointment. Bring your time records and pay stubs, which you kept (you didn't leave them at work, right?) If you have some irrational fear of lawyers, you might possibly get halfway decent advice at your state's labor board such as the California Department of Labor Standards Enforcement aka The St [ca.gov]

  • Here is the law (Score:2, Informative)

    by DanAnderson26 ( 54603 )
    California also has some of their own additions, if you live there look into them.

    http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_54 1/29CFR541.3.htm [dol.gov]

    Not many people outside of operations environments are non-exempt in IT. As such, they are paid for their skill, and not their time.

    Dan
  • a group of employees including myself got such a case settled about 10 years ago. But you will need some luck on your side. You will need your time sheets documenting your overtime. And now the luck part. typically, an employer will have rules (like a behaviour guidelines/holiday leave policy etc) and will spell things out for non-professional staff such as secretaries, admin support staff etc and a set of guideliness for professional employees etc. if you have proof that they ever changed your employment

  • Call em up.. (Score:4, Funny)

    by technos ( 73414 ) on Tuesday March 25, 2003 @12:02AM (#5588710) Homepage Journal
    .. Say 'Listen, [insert expletive or name. I suggest 'Jackhole'], I've got 502.75 hours of unpaid overtime. Documented. You raked my ass over the coals with a [layoff/firing/downsizing], and the way State law figures, you owe me $5.71 million in cash and valuable prizes.

    Do you want to continue being a [expletive/jackhole], and pay a bloodsucking shark so I can just wring it out of your dying corporate corpse with interest anyway, or do you want to simply pay me 4.67 million and toss in a used Maserati so I won't open a can off class action whoopass on you?

    I know Bob in Networking had 747.14 hours of overtime last year, and I'm sure he could use a quality used Lotus instead of putting a new alternator in his Camry. Do you want me to call Bob? Or Gina, in Support?

    Or Alfie, the whacko that peed in the punch bowl and groped the VP after four vodka tonics at the company party? He's just gotten out of the rubber room the layoff put him in, I'm sure he'll consult with his friend Old Kentucky Shark and drop by looking to have a good time in his old cubicle after I tell him you owe him three Porsche and a Mercedes, plus whatever is behind door number three in Today's Showcase.. I think he left a back door in the accounting system..

    Oh, no.. You [expletives/jackholes, perhaps now is a time to throw in 'asshats'] shouldn't take this as a threat. I'm not threatening anything! How do I know if I'll push some of your psychotic disgruntled ex-employees over the edge? How am I an expert on what the courts will do when Lisa, who wrote your new property management system in her free time, and I'm sure would love to know she still owns it because you dumbasses never made her sign the IP agreement, sues you?

    We're all reasonable people here.. Just give me what you owe me, before I beat it out of your cold, lifeless body with a pitchfork wielding lawyer, and then set the pack of dogs on you.
  • i've taken time to read the federal law on the DOL web site in the past as well as some discussion on HR related web sites. while IANAL, this is the jist of what i read:

    it is hard to legally declare an employee exempt and make it stick. the professional clause, which is usually used in regard to IT employees, is shaky at best. the other common one, management, is easier. however, it takes more than just 'manager' in an employee's title. they must spend a minimum of a given percentage of their time in
  • Its difficult to reply to this, but you might want to look a little closer at the FLSA Section 13. http://www.flsa.com/computer.html Overtime pay requirements come down to whether you qualify as a Excempt or Non-Exempt employee. Excempt employees which most IT jobs fall, aren't required to be paid any compensation beyond their salary.
  • Here, as an owner of an IT company, I can get countless hours of free labor from my employees by requiring 60, 80, 100 or more hours a week, and fire those who don't give it to me! I can even pay them a pittance and get away with it because IT employees are "exempt".

    And if the state or federal government actually do take me to task over it legally, then I can outsource to India, or some other country, no doubt where child labor is legal, wages are even lower, and employee safety laws are nonexistent.

    So th
  • I had a friend who was in a similar situation. He put in a bunch of unpaid overtime over the course of two years, thinking he was an exempt employee and part of the management team. Then the company signed a huge deal and passed out bonuses to the Managers, and he was screwed over.

    He contacted the state Labor Board, and they pretty much took the case and did everything for him. He didn't have any time sheets or anything, but the company had records of his security card in/out punches, and the weekly tim
  • While I seriously doubt you can sue for your overtime pay, you may be able to sue if they failed to disclose that your job would require such a large amount of overtime before you accepted the job. 500 hours is quite a lot and I'm sure you'll have some legal recourse as long as you can prove it, and that you were required to work that long.
  • This would have never happened.

    I find it amusing at all the people who complained in this [slashdot.org] discussion about how crappy unions are, but so many of us are getting screwed.
    How about it? [slashdot.org].

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