I know this was meant to be a joke but it really is a problem with a lot of school programs. The curriculums aren't as tough as they should be, and Universities start becoming degree-mills. It's at least part of the reason why degrees have become so devalued.
I know you're joking, but it depends on if you are in the Cambridge or Oxford camp, really.
Me, personaaly, I cringe at "syllabuses," but I'm not in the debate.
Is how tough it is even the problem? What do you mean by "tough"?
The original poster said a degree proves you can learn. How quickly
can you learn? And can you think, or just learn? I have encountered
plenty of people who are "book smart". They get good grades, get their
degree, yet have no idea what they are doing.
They learn the material they are taught. But it could be they required
a LOT of extra time working on it and/or extra time talking to the
professor/TA. In the end your grade depends on whet
"Tough" is obviously not something I can quantify. What I can tell you is certain faculties, such as Science, Arts, and even Business are simply too easy to pass. Well over 90% of class participants pass. Not because they actually know a lot, but because that is the quota given to them by the dean or whoever.
From my experience I would rather have more material. 4 years is a long time in school and I want to use every ounce of that time to make myself valuable to a future employer. This is not happening.
S
Naw, it proves you can show up for class for four years...which actually means something to employers because it proves you are at least somewhat dependable...
Give me a break, It doesn't even prove that. It means that you were adept enough to learn or memorize enough to pass your exams. I've taken more than a few courses where showing up for the class added pretty much nothing.
I can point you to ~10 people on my course who never miss a lecture/tutorial and will pass their degree.
I can point you to ~10 people to have attended maybe 5% of their lectures/tutorials and will pass their degree.
The majority miss a few lectures/tutorials here and there and will probably pass their degree.
I'm notorious for skipping pointless "read-from-the-slides" lectures and "remember-that-thing-you-did-in-the-first-year-let 's do-it-again" lectures, this has no bearing on how dependable I am at
Ironically, less that 30% of our IT staff (as of the last survey) had "advanced degrees"... whatever that means. The wording suggested that our IT staff are largely direct from HS (like I am).
Of course, the mean time in the field for the people here is 10 years. So I guess 10 years of experience is worth more than a degree? I personally want to finish my degree, but it won't be in order to work in IT.
If you're going to go by the entry requirements for H1-B visas, A bachelor's degree is worth about 8 years experience. (degree + 2 years or 10 years required).
From personal experience, there are a lot of people in the industry (Generally with degrees in something that isn't CS/IT) that do not know things after 8 years that get taught in the first year of a CS/IT degree.
Then again, there's an awful lot of college graduates with CS/IT degrees that have got no clue what you really need to do to build a soft
if someone that has been in the industry for 8 years doesnt know it, then it is not needed.
I have yet to see a mid level non tech school that has a comp sci department or degree course worth a damn. They teach absolutely assanine shit that very few people use, rather than the things people need to know. If medical schools were run the same way the life expectancy of an american would be 30 years lower.
Then the kids need to go to vocational schools not college. Comp-sci programs aren't there to produce good little job candidates. Medical schools are basically a high end trades school. I don't give 2 shits what the kids KNOW coming out of school. They don't know wtf is worth knowing and what isn't anyway. gid-goo
You're right. It's not needed. If you're happy with mediocre.
Too many people write applications/manage systems that get the requirements mostly right, that don't have huge bugs, that get the job done - most of the time.
A few people write applications/manage systems that go above and beyond the requirements, that are a pleasure to use because they are responsive, informative and handle problems well. Those people more often than not are CS/IT graduates. If you understand how the computer/compiler/OS wo
you wanna make a bet on that ? "Those people more often than not are CS/IT graduates."
Most CS/IT grads I know hardly understand the material and are in it for the quick buck, not only that but they also tend to think they know more than they actually do. Don't make the mistake of thinking that someone who didnt get a degree doesnt understand how the "computer/compiler/OS works" more likely they know how it works and have actually used it, as opposed to listening to someone talk about it, then hypothisi
This is probably just a flame, but you need to learn to read.
I said "A few people", few meaning "a small number". This is probably a good antonym for "Most". "People" covers the entire population, not just CS/IT grads.
The statements "Most CS/IT grads hardly understand the material" and "For the few people who write good applications, some fraction more than 50% of them are CS/IT grads" are NOT mutually exclusive. I agree with both statements.
The bottom line is that CS/IT degrees are designed to turn o
The faulty assumption here is that you have to be a CS/IT graduate to understand how the computer/compiler/OS works.
The truth is they're not really that hard to understand. And you can buy the same textbooks (or even better books) without being in a degree program. And I've run across lots of CS/IT gradutates that were truly incompetent.
It seems that those that had enough drive to learn it on their own are going to do better, simply because they like it enough to want to learn it on their own. A lot of
It proves you can pass tests and jump through hoops. There doesn't have to be any learning involved whatsoever, unless learning how to beat the system is what you mean.
Well, it proves that you can make it through college. Which is exactly one big thing (with a lot of component little things) more than not making it through college.
If someone has a glittering CV and a portfolio of impressive work without any college, that's great - there are a hundred roads to the citidel of success, and you can't argue with good work. But when it comes to taking a chance on someone with relatively little background, I'll take a chance on someone who at least had a statistical possibility
True, you don't have to actually learn anything to go to and complete college. Or, you can learn things to pass your classes then promptly forget them.
The point, though, is that you decided to do something (like go to college) that you didn't HAVE to do, that was not as fun as the alternatives, but you did it anyway. That in and of itself is a quality desired by some employers.
Note that the same thing applies to GEDs. Any yahoo can get a high school diploma. A GED means that you skipped school when yo
And no, '4 years of college' doesnt prove you are worth anything. It proves you can learn, but not much more.
What an ignorant attitude!
If you manage to get two bachelor's degrees and a master's from a top-ten school in those four years it most defintely says something. (People acutally do it, but not me.)
I hate to break it to you but college IS work. Not all colleges are the same amount of work, but those kids at the top schools in their fields work HARD.
Working hard and learning are two different things. I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little. There are people on the other side that work only a small amount, yet they are learning a lot. Getting a degree from such a place may have some perks, like showing that you can handle stress or some work load, but if you don't know how to do the job you might be in trouble.
What each person gets out of college is going to be different. It depends not on
Working hard and learning are two different things.
Right, but they're not mutually exclusive. Often, they go hand-in-hand.
I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little.
So what are you trying to say with this statement? That Caltech doesn't teach students anything?
I knew plenty of students at my school who didn't learn much or do much work. They failed out of the program.
In the end, just knowing someone has a college degree does not mean too
I am not saying that a degree is meaningless or useless, only that looking at a person's degree alone is a mistake. No matter how tough or well known the school is, there are people that get through the degree program without gaining much. The same goes for work experience.
Having a degree will get your foot in the door, but when it comes down to picking a person to hire, I would be looking at what the person studied and what projects they worked on. You can have one person from MIT who only took the min
The fact that so many college grads are unable to find work these days pretty much proves that those degrees are utterly worthless except for impressing parents and those who already have jobs but are unable to offer them any.
Here's my experiences, from the point of someone who moved into IT Security (as opposed to programming).
I was at university for a grand total of 1 year. During that time I was involved in my own coding projects, and keeping in touch with my friends in the US who were joining security companies at the time.
At the end of that year, I left university and sent around a resume (targetted to specific firms), outlining what my skills were, and asking whether the company could use me. I received an offer and star
What you have learned from the real world experience Is what has been going on for ages. With my 40+ years work experience nothing has changed. A Young Grad feeling entitled to high wages without any kind of real work experience.
Like they say, respect is earned its not an entitlement, same goes for work and pay. And no matter where you work the faces are 95% of the time the only thing that is different.
Am I the only person that has found people with this "college doesn't prove anything, punk" attitude typically got bad grades at crummy schools, and have had a chip on their shoulder about it ever since?
If you you "achieve" doesn't help the company earn more money thus giving it a reason to hire/keep you then what fuck all is it worth at the end of the day?
It does not prove that you can learn; at least, not outside of the sciences. It proves that you can follow direction, prioritize tasks, handle stress, and regurgitate information. All useful skills in an employee, yes, but definately nothing to do with learning ability.
===---===
The decision doesn't have to be logical; it was unanimous.
Welcome to the real world there son (Score:3, Informative)
And no, '4 years of college' doesnt prove you are worth anything. It proves you can learn, but not much more.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:5, Funny)
I know a lot of college grads that prove you wrong Sir.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
Obviously, or you would have known the proper spelling is "curricula."
p
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
Me, personaaly, I cringe at "syllabuses," but I'm not in the debate.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
The original poster said a degree proves you can learn. How quickly can you learn? And can you think, or just learn? I have encountered plenty of people who are "book smart". They get good grades, get their degree, yet have no idea what they are doing.
They learn the material they are taught. But it could be they required a LOT of extra time working on it and/or extra time talking to the professor/TA. In the end your grade depends on whet
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
From my experience I would rather have more material. 4 years is a long time in school and I want to use every ounce of that time to make myself valuable to a future employer. This is not happening.
S
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:3, Interesting)
Naw, it proves you can show up for class for four years...which actually means something to employers because it proves you are at least somewhat dependable...
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
Not really... speaking from experience here... :)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Dependability? Ha! (Score:2)
I can point you to ~10 people to have attended maybe 5% of their lectures/tutorials and will pass their degree.
The majority miss a few lectures/tutorials here and there and will probably pass their degree.
I'm notorious for skipping pointless "read-from-the-slides" lectures and "remember-that-thing-you-did-in-the-first-year-le t 's do-it-again" lectures, this has no bearing on how dependable I am at
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
>>This is how the real world works.. you arent worth a damned thing until you can prove yourself.
>I know a lot of college grads that prove you wrong Sir
College grads? Hell, I know experienced, proven professionals who can prove that first statement wrong.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, the mean time in the field for the people here is 10 years. So I guess 10 years of experience is worth more than a degree? I personally want to finish my degree, but it won't be in order to work in IT.
-WS
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:3, Insightful)
From personal experience, there are a lot of people in the industry (Generally with degrees in something that isn't CS/IT) that do not know things after 8 years that get taught in the first year of a CS/IT degree.
Then again, there's an awful lot of college graduates with CS/IT degrees that have got no clue what you really need to do to build a soft
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
I have yet to see a mid level non tech school that has a comp sci department or degree course worth a damn. They teach absolutely assanine shit that very few people use, rather than the things people need to know. If medical schools were run the same way the life expectancy of an american would be 30 years lower.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
gid-goo
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Too many people write applications/manage systems that get the requirements mostly right, that don't have huge bugs, that get the job done - most of the time.
A few people write applications/manage systems that go above and beyond the requirements, that are a pleasure to use because they are responsive, informative and handle problems well. Those people more often than not are CS/IT graduates. If you understand how the computer/compiler/OS wo
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Most CS/IT grads I know hardly understand the material and are in it for the quick buck, not only that but they also tend to think they know more than they actually do. Don't make the mistake of thinking that someone who didnt get a degree doesnt understand how the "computer/compiler/OS works" more likely they know how it works and have actually used it, as opposed to listening to someone talk about it, then hypothisi
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
I said "A few people", few meaning "a small number". This is probably a good antonym for "Most". "People" covers the entire population, not just CS/IT grads.
The statements "Most CS/IT grads hardly understand the material" and "For the few people who write good applications, some fraction more than 50% of them are CS/IT grads" are NOT mutually exclusive. I agree with both statements.
The bottom line is that CS/IT degrees are designed to turn o
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
The truth is they're not really that hard to understand. And you can buy the same textbooks (or even better books) without being in a degree program. And I've run across lots of CS/IT gradutates that were truly incompetent.
It seems that those that had enough drive to learn it on their own are going to do better, simply because they like it enough to want to learn it on their own. A lot of
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
wrong (Score:1)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
It proves you can pass tests and jump through hoops. There doesn't have to be any learning involved whatsoever, unless learning how to beat the system is what you mean.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
If someone has a glittering CV and a portfolio of impressive work without any college, that's great - there are a hundred roads to the citidel of success, and you can't argue with good work. But when it comes to taking a chance on someone with relatively little background, I'll take a chance on someone who at least had a statistical possibility
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
The point, though, is that you decided to do something (like go to college) that you didn't HAVE to do, that was not as fun as the alternatives, but you did it anyway. That in and of itself is a quality desired by some employers.
Note that the same thing applies to GEDs. Any yahoo can get a high school diploma. A GED means that you skipped school when yo
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
As stated earlier here, plenty of people graduate without a clue about anything.
RE: Rambling buffoon (Score:2, Insightful)
What an ignorant attitude!
If you manage to get two bachelor's degrees and a master's from a top-ten school in those four years it most defintely says something. (People acutally do it, but not me.)
I hate to break it to you but college IS work. Not all colleges are the same amount of work, but those kids at the top schools in their fields work HARD.
I wasn't handed my degree, I EARNED IT.
Re: Rambling buffoon (Score:3, Insightful)
Working hard and learning are two different things. I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little. There are people on the other side that work only a small amount, yet they are learning a lot. Getting a degree from such a place may have some perks, like showing that you can handle stress or some work load, but if you don't know how to do the job you might be in trouble.
What each person gets out of college is going to be different. It depends not on
Re: Rambling buffoon (Score:3, Insightful)
Right, but they're not mutually exclusive. Often, they go hand-in-hand.
I know some students at Caltech that are working very hard, but at the same time learn very little.
So what are you trying to say with this statement? That Caltech doesn't teach students anything?
I knew plenty of students at my school who didn't learn much or do much work. They failed out of the program.
In the end, just knowing someone has a college degree does not mean too
Re: Rambling buffoon (Score:2)
I am not saying that a degree is meaningless or useless, only that looking at a person's degree alone is a mistake. No matter how tough or well known the school is, there are people that get through the degree program without gaining much. The same goes for work experience.
Having a degree will get your foot in the door, but when it comes down to picking a person to hire, I would be looking at what the person studied and what projects they worked on. You can have one person from MIT who only took the min
Re: Rambling buffoon (Score:2)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:3, Interesting)
I was at university for a grand total of 1 year. During that time I was involved in my own coding projects, and keeping in touch with my friends in the US who were joining security companies at the time.
At the end of that year, I left university and sent around a resume (targetted to specific firms), outlining what my skills were, and asking whether the company could use me. I received an offer and star
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:1)
Like they say, respect is earned its not an entitlement, same goes for work and pay. And no matter where you work the faces are 95% of the time the only thing that is different.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
Weep.
Weep for this society.
That we can spit in the face of the dedication necessary to earn a college degree is too tragic to put into words.
Has the workplace become so cynical, and so toxic, that no amount of hard work or achievement earns anything beyond skepticism?
It looks that way. So we should weep for our society, and what it could have been.
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
College grads have even MORE bills to pay.
If you you "achieve" doesn't help the company earn more money thus giving it a reason to hire/keep you then what fuck all is it worth at the end of the day?
Re:Welcome to the real world there son (Score:2)
It does not prove that you can learn; at least, not outside of the sciences. It proves that you can follow direction, prioritize tasks, handle stress, and regurgitate information. All useful skills in an employee, yes, but definately nothing to do with learning ability.
===---===