$20/hour can mean a lot of different things. If it is a unionized government job with benefits in a low cost of living area-it wouldn't be too bad. I can easily see how that wouldn't go far in New York City or Silicon Valley-even for a single guy.
The national average for all "white-collar/technical" professions is $27.15/hour ($56k). However, in most metro areas, it is around $30 ($62k). Out of college, you should expect about 15% less than average or between $48k and $52k with some prior experience--although many, many people will be more than happy to offer you $26.5k. The point is, you should be able to hit the mean within three years. Don't let ANYONE tell you otherwise. If you are offered less than 15% below the aggregate mean (that is, everyone, not just IT) for your area, laugh hysterically as they watch your ass walk out the door. In most metro areas, that's about $45k, so 15% less is about $19/hour. Really, it's quite therapeutic and they deserve it. Another nice rule-of-thumb is if the salary is less than you paid for tuition, move on. If you went to a school like Georgetown that routinely offers jobs requiring master's degrees for $27k, which is less than a single year of undergrad tuition, you know what I'm talking about.
Look here to get detailed information on actual wages in your area:
Dont work out on low wage offers. They are companies, and in a salary negotiation situtation your boss is always trying to screw you no matter how nice a guy he is. It is his job. If you get a too low offer, tell them what you expect, and why you expect that. If they say stuff like, it is a "standard contract", everybody makes the same here. Tell them they are lieing and there is no such thing as a standard contract. In business world you have to know, everthing is up for negotiation.
I agree with everything you said except the last bit.
There can be a standard contract for the company. The hiring person's boss might say.....you cannot offer more than X amount, no negotiating. In fact, that is a fairly common practice.
There can be a standard contract for the company. The hiring person's boss might say.....you cannot offer more than X amount, no negotiating. In fact, that is a fairly common practice.
And because of thier inflexability with negotiations they probably hire average or less then average people to work there. I would try to avoid a place like that if possible, that policy is a red flag to me....
You obviously haven't had to look for a job recently (since 2001) or you wouldn't act so casually toward getting a job. I graduated Suma Cum Laude with 2 degrees, had some great jobs, and had to settle for the same amount that I used to make on internships. And I jumped at the chance, DESPITE a 75 mile commute EVERY day! If you need a job, take it! Get comfortable/experienced. Climb out of depression. Then look for another job later.
Then it is a sad commentary on our education system that you don't know it's "Summa Cum Laude". Hopefully, it was just a typo.
Aside from that, I basically agree. The job market is tight. But things seem to be turning around. Right now I definitely would not advise anyone to decline a job offer because you expect something better to come along (you should already have a better offer before you reject one). In the next few years that will probably change, but
I don't know...but I'm betting neither of those degrees was in Latin. So it seems to be no commentary on our education system...just on one person's Latin spelling ability.
> If they say stuff like, it is a "standard contract", everybody makes the same here. Tell them they are lieing and there is no such thing as a standard contract. In business world you have to know, everthing is up for negotiation.
I *did* work for a start-up where we were all paid the same.
When I was hiring there, someone taking the "you are a liar" approach would have ended the negeotiations immediately.
I got some *excellent* experience there that helped me jump whole salary levels later. The work
You are right, you should never say they are lieing and tecnically they might not. It would be better to tell yourself they are lieing and keep arguing you case, until it seem irrevocably lost.
Really? "No Standard Contracts"? *looks at his CP1 standard contractor contract* Hmm, this 80 page contract must be a figment of my imagination.
Anyway, the base rate formula is listed in it as well. It is Degree(s) + Number of years working = pay grade
So for example, a Masters in Engineering + 1 year (for a graduate) = ~ $19/hour
In my case, Associate of Science + 9 years = ~ $26/hour. If I were to finish my Bachelors I would add about $4/hour more to my rate. And for each year I work I am adding $
In my experience the standard contract is real enough, but it is more of a template: You can change specifics you disagree on, but it might depend on how important your employment is for the company (how unique your skills are).
...especially because of the proliferation of fair employment bills and the like. Canada actually tried to implement a Universal Classification System across ALL government position in the entire frickin' country.
Of course, after $1 billion or so, it failed. But in the meantime they did standardize a hell of a lot of salaries. You can negotiate what level you start at based on your experience, and occasionly get a double increment if you have a good year, but otherwise the increments are standardized.
FYI, in Soviet Russia there were about 16 or so levels that are still used today in government and state-owned organisations. The system is called "Unified Tariff Scale". It might not be the most efficient system, but it works.
They are companies, and in a salary negotiation situtation your boss is always trying to screw you no matter how nice a guy he is.
You are bitter and quite wrong. In some cases, the boss works for you, but the upper management is trying to pinch the pennies. I know, I've done the "boss" thing.
Oh, and around here, many private companies model the government, so you can easily calcualte anyone's pay given their job and years of service. There is no flexibility, and there is a "standard contract."
I think the original poster had no experience, other than internships. That's not a bad place to be, but I'd guess 45k, tops, outside of NY.
"Laughing hysterically"? well, maybe. That first job is the hardest to crack, acting like a maniac is no real plus.
FWIW I have never taken a job for the money, after leaving uni. Oddly enough I am still within 1% of being the highest paid engineer in my businees region for my company.
Statistical poverty is regularly pegged at 20% below the mean in any area. There is no reason to accept, with a college degree in the relevant field, poverty-level wages. If the mean is $62.5k and they offer $27k, no amount of negotiating skills is going to bridge that gap--and they've been insulting. Armed with the appropriate salary ranges--you know, what the guy ASKED FOR in his post--is the surest way to be confident in demanding reasonable compensation. This isn't being noble and not "taking a job for
Do you agree that (mean-20%) is a meaningless definition of poverty?
Not arguing, just asking.
For instance, if I were a single bloke sharing a house with 3 others, in an upmarket housing estate, our individual incomes would be what, half?, of those around us, in their mortgaged hutches.
Yet we were the ones with Lotii, TR4s, down the pub every night, foreign holiday every 3 months, while they stayed in and drove their Mini Metros to work and looked forward to their monthly visit to the flicks and a cheap B
No, it's not. The nationwide mean is only about $13/hour, which after taxes is scarcely $23k per year. That's fine in Boise, but if you have "3 single blokes" living in an "upmarket estate" and their COMBINED take home is $69k, you're in fantasyland if you think you'll be taking a "foreign holiday" every three months, unless you count walking to Tijuana from San Diego as "going abroad."
If your income is less than roughly 2/3 of the population in your area, it's a safe bet to assume you are "poor," locally
We were on about 5000 pounds a year, each, fresh out of uni, one year into our careers. Our neighbours would have been 30-40 year old senior engineers, supervisors or managers, with mortgages and families.
Guessing that the relativity between wages still held true then (I see no reason why not, within 3 years I doubled my pay), that would have put them on at least 2 to 2.5x as much as us.
You can argue with me taking foreign holidays, fair enough can't prove it. I too
GBP 27k/3? YIKES. Where? Friggen SHROPSHIRE? I guess then driving to Wales would be considered "a foreign holiday." Perhaps he meant EGYPTIAN pounds, which EGP23k is about $3,700. You could hitch-hike to Libya on that... Seriously, there is NOWHERE that denominates in pounds of any variety where 27k/3 would afford ANYTHING "upmarket." I happen to be looking at British salary grade tables right now and the LOWEST grade is GBP12.2k(US$22k). I can't imagine living in any major British city, much less London, o
That I did not know. But I hear this all the time Americans hear "overseas vacation" and assume thousands of dollars I was just pointing out that "going abroad" is for some people quite cheap. OTOH given what you have pointed out it sounds like he is a liar.
Out of college, you should expect about 15% less than average....
Why? The average age for white collar professionals is something like 44 (it is over 50 for mainframe I.T. workers, IIRC -- good field to go into) which implies around 20 years of work experience (though not necessarily in current job function). With zero experience (the OP did not mention CO-OP or internship), $25-30K is probably not unreasonable depending on the local job market (cost of living around here is fairly low, so you might adj
Don't listen to this dumbass unless you want to move to india.
For a fresh-starter, if you can manage a gross of 32k, you're not doing too badly. Especially in areas that are not major metro.
The bottom line is, it's your first gig. Take one that you can get some decent job-satisfaction out of, which may mean lower pay, but still survive reasonably comfortably on.
Pay off any debt you may have whenever possible, and save what you can.
I've been out for a year and a half now, i've just moved into a new apart
You'd "make" even more money if you sold the car and rode the bus. Then you could eat nothing but rice, make your own clothes and boil sea water for salt. After that you could just stop eating all together.
You'd be rich in no time. Really, you should start a motivational speaking tour on that formula. Hey, it worked for Gandhi.
you can use online to get a good gage of what your pay would be given your skills. Get online and look at the offered salaries for your area in your field. Look at your ideal job, then at the ones your actually qualified for.
Keep your eye on the ball is more important than the actual pay. Figure out what experience you need for the $80k job and go after it. When your starting out you can take "subaverage" pay only if it compliments your experience.
Also feel out the employers for what they REALLY w
I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:5, Informative)
Look here to get detailed information on actual wages in your area:
http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/home.htm
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:2)
There can be a standard contract for the company. The hiring person's boss might say.....you cannot offer more than X amount, no negotiating. In fact, that is a fairly common practice.
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:2)
And because of thier inflexability with negotiations they probably hire average or less then average people to work there. I would try to avoid a place like that if possible, that policy is a red flag to me....
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:0)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:1)
Then it is a sad commentary on our education system that you don't know it's "Summa Cum Laude". Hopefully, it was just a typo.
Aside from that, I basically agree. The job market is tight. But things seem to be turning around. Right now I definitely would not advise anyone to decline a job offer because you expect something better to come along (you should already have a better offer before you reject one). In the next few years that will probably change, but
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:0)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:2, Insightful)
I *did* work for a start-up where we were all paid the same.
When I was hiring there, someone taking the "you are a liar" approach would have ended the negeotiations immediately.
I got some *excellent* experience there that helped me jump whole salary levels later. The work
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:2)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:2, Informative)
Anyway, the base rate formula is listed in it as well. It is Degree(s) + Number of years working = pay grade
So for example, a Masters in Engineering + 1 year (for a graduate) = ~ $19/hour
In my case, Associate of Science + 9 years = ~ $26/hour. If I were to finish my Bachelors I would add about $4/hour more to my rate. And for each year I work I am adding $
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:2)
There _are_ standards... (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, after $1 billion or so, it failed. But in the meantime they did standardize a hell of a lot of salaries. You can negotiate what level you start at based on your experience, and occasionly get a double increment if you have a good year, but otherwise the increments are standardized.
Re:There _are_ standards... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:There _are_ standards... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:There _are_ standards... (Score:0)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:1)
You are bitter and quite wrong. In some cases, the boss works for you, but the upper management is trying to pinch the pennies. I know, I've done the "boss" thing.
Oh, and around here, many private companies model the government, so you can easily calcualte anyone's pay given their job and years of service. There is no flexibility, and there is a "standard contract."
Well at least you've got the guts to quote numbers (Score:2)
"Laughing hysterically"? well, maybe. That first job is the hardest to crack, acting like a maniac is no real plus.
FWIW I have never taken a job for the money, after leaving uni. Oddly enough I am still within 1% of being the highest paid engineer in my businees region for my company.
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:2)
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:2)
Not arguing, just asking.
For instance, if I were a single bloke sharing a house with 3 others, in an upmarket housing estate, our individual incomes would be what, half?, of those around us, in their mortgaged hutches.
Yet we were the ones with Lotii, TR4s, down the pub every night, foreign holiday every 3 months, while they stayed in and drove their Mini Metros to work and looked forward to their monthly visit to the flicks and a cheap B
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:2)
If your income is less than roughly 2/3 of the population in your area, it's a safe bet to assume you are "poor," locally
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:2)
We were on about 5000 pounds a year, each, fresh out of uni, one year into our careers. Our neighbours would have been 30-40 year old senior engineers, supervisors or managers, with mortgages and families.
Guessing that the relativity between wages still held true then (I see no reason why not, within 3 years I doubled my pay), that would have put them on at least 2 to 2.5x as much as us.
You can argue with me taking foreign holidays, fair enough can't prove it. I too
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:2)
Period.
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:1)
For some reason, after reading this line I can only picture you as a sushi chef.
Mmm...sea urchin.
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:1)
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:2)
Re:Well at least you've got the guts to quote numb (Score:1)
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:1)
Why? The average age for white collar professionals is something like 44 (it is over 50 for mainframe I.T. workers, IIRC -- good field to go into) which implies around 20 years of work experience (though not necessarily in current job function). With zero experience (the OP did not mention CO-OP or internship), $25-30K is probably not unreasonable depending on the local job market (cost of living around here is fairly low, so you might adj
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:0)
For a fresh-starter, if you can manage a gross of 32k, you're not doing too badly. Especially in areas that are not major metro.
The bottom line is, it's your first gig. Take one that you can get some decent job-satisfaction out of, which may mean lower pay, but still survive reasonably comfortably on.
Pay off any debt you may have whenever possible, and save what you can.
I've been out for a year and a half now, i've just moved into a new apart
Re:I don't know a good rate... (Score:2)
You'd be rich in no time. Really, you should start a motivational speaking tour on that formula. Hey, it worked for Gandhi.
get online (Score:2)
Keep your eye on the ball is more important than the actual pay. Figure out what experience you need for the $80k job and go after it. When your starting out you can take "subaverage" pay only if it compliments your experience.
Also feel out the employers for what they REALLY w