and I still make no more than what someone doing 3 years of shipping and receiving would make.
Your salary is dependant on the company. Some companies don't care about emloyees and love to turn them over.
Also, if you are just starting, I wouldn't be worried. After a year they will probably bump you up to something more reasonable. You also can ask for a raise. If you ask for something you think you should be making and get rejected, look for a new position somewhere else.
Here's some job advice for the recent computer graduate in today's economy.
1. Join the military and get into an intelligence specialty. If you plan on working with computers after you get out, I suggest Navy or Air Force though I know a great sys admin who was a Marine.
2. Get and keep a security clearance. Don't let it lapse. Don't do drugs or, God forbid, marry a non-U.S. citizen. Always pretend that you agree with everything George says and repeat after me: "Hanging is too good for anyone from France".
3. Earn 35% more (at least) once you get out and you don't even need to have any skills or a degree. Your job will be safe from outsourcing, there's a thousand Beltway Bandits begging for your resume, and headhunters are tracking down kids straight out of the military (as long as they have a ticket). It's like the dot com bubble!
The tone of your post is that ex-military people don't deserve the jobs they can get in DC. Probably true in some (or a lot of) cases.
BUT
I used to own a small computer store in a college town. For 8 yrs, my best employees were ROTC(college) or ex-military come back to get a degree. Once I'd gone through a few years, I learned that, as a rule, the military folks were better disciplined, driven, and hard working than the non-military types.
That's not to say that I didn't have great non-military employees.
Actually, my subconscious lament was that around here the clearence is MORE important than skill. My advice to the recent graduation was that most people who have a clearance got it through the military.
In other words, you can send a guy with a clearance to a week of J2EE training, but you can't send a guy with J2EE skills to a week of clearance training.
Anyway, its a little like Lake Woebegon around here; all of my friends and I are above average;-)
I imagine there are some smart people who are not adverse to working hard and might be inclined to join the military for educational benefits instead of taking student loans (a smart move in itself).
Well, actually you're right, but you're not telling them the whole story.
The big ticket item there is the security clearance. Those are *very* expensive to get (no, YOU do not and can not pay for one, you have to be sponsored by an employer/the military who says that you need one). He's right about how badly having done drugs (this includes going out & getting drunk a lot, too, folks!) or marrying non-US citizens. Hell, extensive foreign travel and any number of other things can make you loo
You only see the accepted applicants, though, it would seem. Unless your workplace meets the requirements allowing temporary work authorizations, that is...
I know of plenty of folks who were rejected who aren't exactly particularly untrustworthy. Then again, I suppose that I don't know what all would be found in a full background investigation of them...
The other issue is that it's expensive to do these, so they avoid going through the whole screening process,if they can.
I know of plenty of folks who were rejected who aren't exactly particularly untrustworthy. Then again, I suppose that I don't know what all would be found in a full background investigation of them...
I've only ever seen one person rejected for a clearance. He was rejected because years before, he had worked on the Middle East Peace Council. So he was personally acquainted with a handful of terrorists.
Ironically, before 9/11 this fact didn't prevent him from holding clearances under a different organizati
My understanding is that SCI (Secure, Compartmented Information) clearances aren't necessarily "higher" than any others, though I'm sure they may well be classified.
You can also fail the polygraph. It doesn't help much knowing their false positive rate.
You can also be considered too irresponsible, though the debt and drug use bit covers much of that.
That said, I'd still jump at the chance to get a clearance--you're not kidding about how much they're worth:]
Most clearances do not involve a poly. That's a special ticket.
My understanding is that SCI...
Some tickets require special background checks, and maybe, as you noted, a poly. This is a big deal, because people often really don't want to take polys. Lots of people refuse, and thereby also refuse the ticket.
Getting a security clearance can be one of the most valuable things you can do for your career, especially if you get a Top Secret clearance. Salaries are 10%-50% higher and and the number of candidates for the jobs is far lower. Also there is absolutely no fear of being outsourced!
This really is true. It was probably the best thing that happened to me. I went to college at a major co-op university (Drexel), mainly for the co-op experience (seriously, you can't beat 1 1/2 years of real work experience as you are handed your diploma).
Anyway, if you can get a clearance then you are very much in demand. It costs around $50-200k for a company to get you a clearance (this is what it costs for the paperwork and background checks, with the costs ranging for the different levels of clearanc
As an Intelligence geek for the AF, I feel I should throw my two cents in here.
If you do want to be an intel geek, go officer. They have a pretty awesome responsibility, and plus- you're an officer! (Better pay, more of an opportunity to actually use your critical thinking and analysis skills) The AF Specialty Code (AFSC) for that is 14N (that'll come in handy when talking to a recruiter)
If you want to be enlisted (perish the thought with a college degree!!), here's a brief description of the fields:
1N0 - Briefers. These guys have to know a ton, and do some fairly cool planning stuff. 1N1 - Imagery (what's that blob mean??) 1N2 - Morse-Code... I don't reccommend this job, as it's being phased out, and just lost it's entire signing bonus 1N3 - Linguist - learn to speak Arabic, Chineese, or a plethora of other ("enemy") languages 1N4 - Intel Analyist... I'm not really sure what these guys do, but I'm told it's important! 1N5 - "Electronic Signals Explotation Operative"... This is what I do- basically the study/explotation of RADAR systems:) 1N6 - "Systems Security".... like reading peoples' email and then ratting them out for violating security proceedures?? That's what these people do!
In short, About.com [about.com] is a great resource to use when thinking about joining the military... There's a lot of "minor" things recruiters leave out, so be sure to do your homework first!
Furthermore, when you're waiting for a clearance, expect to wait a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. Especially if it's a Top Secret one. Some bases will let you work with an Interim (temporary) clearance, and some won't... If the base you end up at is in the latter category, expect to be waiting over a year, doing nothing related to your job.
Ah yes, waiting a long time for a clearance, that brings back a lot of memories, like when a coworker and I were waiting for our TS/SCI's (with acronyms like that, please forgive my AC posting).
We didn't have a thing to do for months, we basically got paid to sit around and do nothing for several months. We were in a medium sized room subdivided into about 8 cubicles. The lights in the room were controlled by a motion sensor over the door, and if we were still for a long time at our cubes then the lights
Dude, even though you posted AC, I wish I had mod points for this. This is exactly the sort of stunt that a bunch of bored nukes would have thought up when I was in the Navy. Awesome.
2. Get and keep a security clearance. Don't let it lapse. Don't do drugs or, God forbid, marry a non-U.S. citizen. Always pretend that you agree with everything George says and repeat after me: "Hanging is too good for anyone from France".
Whoops... my wife is a citizen of a country whose official religion is Islam (Malaysia), we travelled together around India a few months ago, my brother married a French citizen last year, and my little sister's in France RIGHT NOW.
Let me get this straight, all I have to do is submit myself to a brain-washing muscle-head organisation, don't speak my mind or follow the (possibly) love of my life, agree with George Bush and then I'll be guaranteed a job..? Maybe I could live without the first 3, but agree with George Bush ???
I think I'd rather struggle to get a job, that is, IF I have to struggle...
I completely agree with this, with one proviso: you don't have to join an intelligence field. There are plenty of communications fields that employers love to see. I was a tactical data network operator (mobile TCP/IP networks) for four years, and with the benefit of having a "secret" clearance (lowest level requiring an investigation), i slid into a job making 53k yearly (on hourly wage $25.40). i work alternating weeks of 3 days and then 4 days, on a 12 hour shift. Overtime pushes my yearly salary to ju
The only way to learn a new programming language is by writing programs in it.
- Brian Kernighan
I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2, Interesting)
Your salary is dependant on the company. Some companies don't care about emloyees and love to turn them over.
Also, if you are just starting, I wouldn't be worried. After a year they will probably bump you up to something more reasonable. You also can ask for a raise. If you ask for something you think you should be making and get rejected, look for a new position somewhere else.
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Join the military and get into an intelligence specialty. If you plan on working with computers after you get out, I suggest Navy or Air Force though I know a great sys admin who was a Marine.
2. Get and keep a security clearance. Don't let it lapse. Don't do drugs or, God forbid, marry a non-U.S. citizen. Always pretend that you agree with everything George says and repeat after me: "Hanging is too good for anyone from France".
3. Earn 35% more (at least) once you get out and you don't even need to have any skills or a degree. Your job will be safe from outsourcing, there's a thousand Beltway Bandits begging for your resume, and headhunters are tracking down kids straight out of the military (as long as they have a ticket). It's like the dot com bubble!
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:1)
Here's to the Great White North. "Ohhhh Canada..."
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2, Interesting)
BUT
I used to own a small computer store in a college town. For 8 yrs, my best employees were ROTC(college) or ex-military come back to get a degree. Once I'd gone through a few years, I learned that, as a rule, the military folks were better disciplined, driven, and hard working than the non-military types.
That's not to say that I didn't have great non-military employees.
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2)
In other words, you can send a guy with a clearance to a week of J2EE training, but you can't send a guy with J2EE skills to a week of clearance training.
Anyway, its a little like Lake Woebegon around here; all of my friends and I are above average
Hmmm.... (Score:2)
I imagine there are some smart people who are not adverse to working hard and might be inclined to join the military for educational benefits instead of taking student loans (a smart move in itself).
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2)
Well, actually you're right, but you're not telling them the whole story.
The big ticket item there is the security clearance. Those are *very* expensive to get (no, YOU do not and can not pay for one, you have to be sponsored by an employer/the military who says that you need one). He's right about how badly having done drugs (this includes going out & getting drunk a lot, too, folks!) or marrying non-US citizens. Hell, extensive foreign travel and any number of other things can make you loo
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2)
Speaking from someone who's worked in the the defense industry for 10 years on some prety serious shit: none of this is particularly accurate.
C//
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2)
I know of plenty of folks who were rejected who aren't exactly particularly untrustworthy. Then again, I suppose that I don't know what all would be found in a full background investigation of them...
The other issue is that it's expensive to do these, so they avoid going through the whole screening process
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2)
I've only ever seen one person rejected for a clearance. He was rejected because years before, he had worked on the Middle East Peace Council. So he was personally acquainted with a handful of terrorists.
Ironically, before 9/11 this fact didn't prevent him from holding clearances under a different organizati
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2)
You can also fail the polygraph. It doesn't help much knowing their false positive rate.
You can also be considered too irresponsible, though the debt and drug use bit covers much of that.
That said, I'd still jump at the chance to get a clearance--you're not kidding about how much they're worth
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:2)
Most clearances do not involve a poly. That's a special ticket.
My understanding is that SCI...
Some tickets require special background checks, and maybe, as you noted, a poly. This is a big deal, because people often really don't want to take polys. Lots of people refuse, and thereby also refuse the ticket.
C//
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:1)
Dude, the rest of the planet isnt as evil as you think.
Re:Get A Security Clearance (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Get A Security Clearance: Nods in agreement... (Score:2)
Anyway, if you can get a clearance then you are very much in demand. It costs around $50-200k for a company to get you a clearance (this is what it costs for the paperwork and background checks, with the costs ranging for the different levels of clearanc
Intelligence in the military (AF) (Score:4, Informative)
If you do want to be an intel geek, go officer. They have a pretty awesome responsibility, and plus- you're an officer! (Better pay, more of an opportunity to actually use your critical thinking and analysis skills) The AF Specialty Code (AFSC) for that is 14N (that'll come in handy when talking to a recruiter)
If you want to be enlisted (perish the thought with a college degree!!), here's a brief description of the fields:
1N0 - Briefers. These guys have to know a ton, and do some fairly cool planning stuff.
1N1 - Imagery (what's that blob mean??)
1N2 - Morse-Code... I don't reccommend this job, as it's being phased out, and just lost it's entire signing bonus
1N3 - Linguist - learn to speak Arabic, Chineese, or a plethora of other ("enemy") languages
1N4 - Intel Analyist... I'm not really sure what these guys do, but I'm told it's important!
1N5 - "Electronic Signals Explotation Operative"... This is what I do- basically the study/explotation of RADAR systems
1N6 - "Systems Security".... like reading peoples' email and then ratting them out for violating security proceedures?? That's what these people do!
In short, About.com [about.com] is a great resource to use when thinking about joining the military... There's a lot of "minor" things recruiters leave out, so be sure to do your homework first!
Furthermore, when you're waiting for a clearance, expect to wait a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time. Especially if it's a Top Secret one. Some bases will let you work with an Interim (temporary) clearance, and some won't... If the base you end up at is in the latter category, expect to be waiting over a year, doing nothing related to your job.
-Jokerghost
Re:Intelligence in the military (AF) (Score:1, Funny)
We didn't have a thing to do for months, we basically got paid to sit around and do nothing for several months. We were in a medium sized room subdivided into about 8 cubicles. The lights in the room were controlled by a motion sensor over the door, and if we were still for a long time at our cubes then the lights
Re:Intelligence in the military (AF) (Score:1)
Security Clearance (Score:3, Funny)
Whoops... my wife is a citizen of a country whose official religion is Islam (Malaysia), we travelled together around India a few months ago, my brother married a French citizen last year, and my little sister's in France RIGHT NOW.
I'm staying away from drugs, though --
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:4, Funny)
I think I'd rather struggle to get a job, that is, IF I have to struggle...
Re:I've been programming for 3 years (Score:1)
i work alternating weeks of 3 days and then 4 days, on a 12 hour shift. Overtime pushes my yearly salary to ju