So far I've read about a third of the posts. I can't read them all because there's a lot. But so far I have not found what I was expecting to see.
No one is claiming that they're staying on Windows because KDE and GNOME look different! There's this sense of urgency in the Linux community that unless there's a unified vanilla desktop, no one is going to want to use Linux. It seems that this is not the case.
But maybe I've missed those posts. So let me ask: is there anyone out there who has genuinely stayed with Windows precisely because KDE and GNOME don't have the same look and feel? [I'm not asking if you want them to have to same look, only if you have honestly refused to use any form of UNIX because of it]
Actually, I consider this to be an important issue. I have played with trying Linux off and on since Red Hat 5.2 and inevitably give up every time after a short while. Part of the frustration is that I don't have anything consistent for interfaces. It's one of the things that MS screwed up with XP, they changed the interface enough that it can be a real pain in the but doing what you've always done. In short, don't discount the whole kde/gnome consistent interface thing. It is important for furthering adoption of Linux beyond a certain crowd that has already embraced it.
In short, I want to be able to "just use it". I want to go to a consistent place every single time and be able to enable a nic to use / not use DHCP regardless of flavor of linux I am on. That and the biggest thing that the linux community needs to do is have a serious attitude adjustment. The whole, holier than thou attitude and general unwillingness to help (with exceptions of course) have ruined it in many portions of society. I was working a very large gov contract position a few years back and when I asked why they didn't have linux in use (despite many of the workers privately using it), I was told bluntly, "because the community can't be bothered to step out of their white tower to help unless your a programmer". "The entire concept of anyone/other/ than a programmer administrating a machine has been lost on them". In short, I should not need to know "C" to admin a box. I am not, and have no interest in becoming a programmer, I simply desire to be an administrator.
In case your wondering if it's the whole CLI interface thing, no it isn't. I've been using computers since the TI80, have 5 years professional experience, and have absolutely no problem with the Cisco CLI. I'm also in school to pick up Solaris, Cisco, and Unix once Linux is finished. Thus I am hardly a newbie that is scared by the lack of a pretty interface. hope this helps.
Yeah, about the interface consistancy thing, if you try RedHat 8 they've done a lot of good work there with BlueCurve for instance. It's too bad there isn't a theming spec so things like BlueCurve and Keramik/Geramik are easier to create, but that'll be addressed with time.
The ivory tower thing: this has to be one of the biggest misunderstandings around. Frequently Linux users (especially in tech support channels) are painted as arrogant and unwilling to help. In my experience (and I give a lot of support on #linuxhelp) this simply isn't true. Usually, when somebody comes to me and says "I got flamed by arrogant geeks in IRC" it turns out they caused the flameage in the first place. A few things that can be done to avoid this (and please don't get me wrong, i'm not suggesting your colleagues did these things, but it's a common problem):
Getting frustrated if your problem isn't solved straight away. I've seen people who start getting angry because after a few mins and a couple of repeats, they still get no answer. Typically if you don't get an answer, it's because nobody who knows one is paying attention to IRC at the moment. It's a common misconception that we all spend our time with our eyes glued to IRC.
Getting frustrated if the solution to your problem seems "too hard". You made a good point about how sometimes Linux users weren't interested in helping you if you weren't a programmer - it can certainly seem this way, but it's not true. More often, there is only an easy solution to the problem if you are a programmer, and because of that users who stamp their feet and say "Why is there no GUI for this like Windows, Linux sucks!" don't get a good response, for obvious reasons
RTFM! No really, please do. It's such a common response that it's become a cliche, but all too often somebody could have found their answer by looking on Google. We're all guilty of it to some extent, sometimes of course you simply need to know the correct phrase or command (and i don't see people getting flamed when this is the case) but sometimes the answer to a problem can be found just by looking for it, as opposed to thinking "it's easier to ask somebody". Note that when you're getting started with Linux, you *will* have to ask questions that could have been found out by researching through the docs, but are easier to simply ask people. I did that a lot, and as long as you're happy with a "man sed" type answer, you can normally get a lot of help from IRC. Sometimes you just need to be pointed in the right direction.
Complaining doesn't get you anywhere. I dunno why, I guess because people are used to phoning commercial tech support and insulting the people on the other end to cool off, but surprise surprise telling people their stuff sucks because you don't want to/can't invest the effort to learn it gets you flamed. In that case, you're the one being arrogant, not them. What's in front of you is the software, nothing is hidden from you. We'd all like for everything to be perfectly easy, but sometimes it isn't, and people who can't seem to accept that are the biggest cause of flamage on IRC.
I hope that little guide helps. Asking experiencied Linux users is one of the fastest ways of getting up to speed, but be careful not to abuse that facility, otherwise you will get burned.
I know there are people out there like yourself. Without question, the people who are willing to help make a world of difference. Please understand that I have written a fair amount of technical materials for various employers over the years, thus personally I am hardly adverse to the idea of RTFM. I think one of the biggest problems, one that I know taco once talked about addressing with a book, is knowing/which/ manaul to read. In short, very good stable tools are out there, but how to know what to ask for? Many of the names (like grep or eth0) are logical for programmers, but don't make a lot of sense for those who aren't.
Without question I have seen people like you describe, those that come demanding answers without bothering to do any research. They are annoying, I won't dispute. Unfortunately, these impatient people talk to other people, and a/perception/ of an ivory tower is created. Right or wrong, people like the managers in my government contract job pay a lot of attention to perception. It's the perception that needs work, and this is not easy to change.
One of the things I have personally found frustrating is that there seems to be an assumption that the user will know what certain things are. In short, it's a matter of knowing what exactly it is that you need. A friend of mine is quite proficeint with linux, and it seems at time I have to use him as a translator. I'll tell him a problem, he tells me the appropriate *nix terminology, and I search online for the answers. Working on more common sense names would help immensely. I think this is the most common method of pointing someone in the right direction for *nix's.
I'm also not at all adverse to linux myself.
I have a mandrake box running duty as a samba file server and another flavor running duty as a firewall.
Complaining doesn't get you anywhere, I couldn't agree more. Unless, that is, someone posts a story to/. asking you to do exactly that:-) In which case I can bring up my complaints. Of note, this could well prove to be the most popular/. story yet - almost 3000 comments upon last check. Believe me, I like many of the concpets of *nix, that's why I'm going to school for it. Unfortunately, it's joe blow six pack that dictates the fortunes in the computer world, and it's joe six pack that needs appealed to.
Short list of the most useful things from my beginner linux perspective.
Translation manuals, the tools are out there, but I need someone to tell what their equivalent to in a windows world so that I know what to ask for.
Consistent interface option. No need to get rid of custom interfaces, but to make available a standard interface that could be brought up (doesn't need to be the only one) to administer the machine, that would be available on all linux flavors would be ungodly useful.
Naming. Many *nix commands are named for programming functionallity since they were designed as programmers tools. Coming up with more familiar names that would also execute the identical function would be useful. For example, grep could also be brought up under "search" or "find".
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
-- Dave Olson
So far... (Score:5, Insightful)
No one is claiming that they're staying on Windows because KDE and GNOME look different! There's this sense of urgency in the Linux community that unless there's a unified vanilla desktop, no one is going to want to use Linux. It seems that this is not the case.
But maybe I've missed those posts. So let me ask: is there anyone out there who has genuinely stayed with Windows precisely because KDE and GNOME don't have the same look and feel? [I'm not asking if you want them to have to same look, only if you have honestly refused to use any form of UNIX because of it]
Re:So far... (Score:4, Interesting)
In short, I want to be able to "just use it". I want to go to a consistent place every single time and be able to enable a nic to use / not use DHCP regardless of flavor of linux I am on. That and the biggest thing that the linux community needs to do is have a serious attitude adjustment. The whole, holier than thou attitude and general unwillingness to help (with exceptions of course) have ruined it in many portions of society. I was working a very large gov contract position a few years back and when I asked why they didn't have linux in use (despite many of the workers privately using it), I was told bluntly, "because the community can't be bothered to step out of their white tower to help unless your a programmer". "The entire concept of anyone
In case your wondering if it's the whole CLI interface thing, no it isn't. I've been using computers since the TI80, have 5 years professional experience, and have absolutely no problem with the Cisco CLI. I'm also in school to pick up Solaris, Cisco, and Unix once Linux is finished. Thus I am hardly a newbie that is scared by the lack of a pretty interface. hope this helps.
Re:So far... (Score:2)
The ivory tower thing: this has to be one of the biggest misunderstandings around. Frequently Linux users (especially in tech support channels) are painted as arrogant and unwilling to help. In my experience (and I give a lot of support on #linuxhelp) this simply isn't true. Usually, when somebody comes to me and says "I got flamed by arrogant geeks in IRC" it turns out they caused the flameage in the first place. A few things that can be done to avoid this (and please don't get me wrong, i'm not suggesting your colleagues did these things, but it's a common problem) :
I hope that little guide helps. Asking experiencied Linux users is one of the fastest ways of getting up to speed, but be careful not to abuse that facility, otherwise you will get burned.
Re:So far... (Score:2)
Without question I have seen people like you describe, those that come demanding answers without bothering to do any research. They are annoying, I won't dispute. Unfortunately, these impatient people talk to other people, and a /perception/ of an ivory tower is created. Right or wrong, people like the managers in my government contract job pay a lot of attention to perception. It's the perception that needs work, and this is not easy to change.
One of the things I have personally found frustrating is that there seems to be an assumption that the user will know what certain things are. In short, it's a matter of knowing what exactly it is that you need. A friend of mine is quite proficeint with linux, and it seems at time I have to use him as a translator. I'll tell him a problem, he tells me the appropriate *nix terminology, and I search online for the answers. Working on more common sense names would help immensely. I think this is the most common method of pointing someone in the right direction for *nix's.
I'm also not at all adverse to linux myself. I have a mandrake box running duty as a samba file server and another flavor running duty as a firewall.
Complaining doesn't get you anywhere, I couldn't agree more. Unless, that is, someone posts a story to /. asking you to do exactly that :-) In which case I can bring up my complaints. Of note, this could well prove to be the most popular /. story yet - almost 3000 comments upon last check. Believe me, I like many of the concpets of *nix, that's why I'm going to school for it. Unfortunately, it's joe blow six pack that dictates the fortunes in the computer world, and it's joe six pack that needs appealed to.
Short list of the most useful things from my beginner linux perspective.
Translation manuals, the tools are out there, but I need someone to tell what their equivalent to in a windows world so that I know what to ask for.
Consistent interface option. No need to get rid of custom interfaces, but to make available a standard interface that could be brought up (doesn't need to be the only one) to administer the machine, that would be available on all linux flavors would be ungodly useful.
Naming. Many *nix commands are named for programming functionallity since they were designed as programmers tools. Coming up with more familiar names that would also execute the identical function would be useful. For example, grep could also be brought up under "search" or "find".