Sci Fi Literature 101? 672
ohlaadee asks: "My niece (she's 13) wants to start reading science fiction. I do too. I gave us both Asimov's _The Foundation_ for Christmas. We'll read it together. I suppose we could spend the rest of our lives just reading Asimov, but I'm wondering what books and movies you folks would come up with? What does the /. recommended Science Fiction 101 list include?"
Dan Simmon's _Hyperion_. (Score:2)
Just a single warning, Dan Simmon is primarily a horror-writer, and some of the stories in _Hyperion_ are very creepy (others are just as touching).
Off the top of my head ... (Score:4)
my SF "must read"
Foundation - Azimov, already mentioned
Dune - Frank Herbert
(later parts of series less and less interesting
for these)
Neuromancer - William Gibson
Protector, Tales of Known Space - Larry Niven
Permutation City, Axiomatic - Greg Egan
Farenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury
Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -
the Robert Heinlein I enjoy
Downbelow Station - CJ Cherryh
Consider Phlebas, Excession - Ian M Banks
... and then personal faves
Icerigger, The Tar-Ayim Krang, Nor Crystal Tears -
Allen Dean Foster
Dragonflight, The Ship Who Sang, Crystal Singer -
Anne Mcaffry - (notice how the first of each
of her sequences is worthwhile?)
Good beginners Science Fiction (Score:2)
- 'Cordelia's Honor' by Lois McMaster Bujold.
- 'The Moon is Hell' by John W. Campbell. (Although that's pretty hard to find these days)
- 'On Basilisk Station' by David Weber. (A good introduction to SF, and available free online! See the Baen Webscription [baen.com] site. (Free registration required).
- 'A Fire Upon the Deep' by Vernor Vinge
For the slightly older beginning reader (or if you don't mind so much about adult themes):- 'Hyperion' by Dan Simmons
- 'Steel Beach' by John Varley
- 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' by Robert A. Heinlein
Not that any of those will really warp someone's mind, but some people are sensitive. A good place to look for books to read is the list of Hugo winners [worldcon.org]. The Hugo is the award given for the best Science Fiction novel of the year, and the list is a good collection of the best of SF.suggested reading (Score:3)
- The Door Into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein
- Ringworld by Larry Niven
- Snowcrash by Neal Stephenson
- The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein
- A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge
- Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
- The Sentinel by Arthur C. Clarke
- The Humanoids by Jack Williamson
- Heart of the Comet by Gregory Benford and David Brin
- Dragon's Egg by Robert L. Forward
- The Giants Novels (trilogy) by James P. Hogan
- Voyagers by Ben Bova
- Blood Music by David Brin
Sorry that I don't have time to write any details about these!Lucifer's Hammer - Niven/Pournelle (Score:2)
Well, if you treat it like you would academia (Score:2)
I think you have to start with true classics. War of the Worlds, The Time Machine, and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea for example. 2001: A Space Odyssey has to be one of the ones to read. I would read Ringworld first among Niven simply because it is his most popular, which is the sort of thing you typically read first to establish a foundation in just about any discipline. The hardest choice for me would be whether to include Vonnegut. His stuff has a different appeal than most sci-fi. When you get to Heinlein, I suggest starting with Starship Troopers and some of the other juvenile series, then progressing to The Door into Summer and Friday, then to some of the Lazarus Long stuff. Don't even bother with Stranger in a Strange Land until later unless the child is extraordinarily sophisticated.
"Logic . . . merely enables one to be wrong with authority"
Piers Anthony (Score:2)
The "Bio of a space tyrant" series is good,
as is "Macroscope" and also "Ghost". "Ghost" is a bit mature for a young reader, and "Bio of a space tyrant" also deals with some mature themes. I'd suggest you read them first, and decide yourself if she is old enough to read them.
Also, his fantasy work is quite good, often mixing Science Fiction in. Read the Split Infinity series and it's sequels. It's about someone who lives on a world with a "Curtain" that allows him to cross from a Fantasy world to a Sci-Fi world, and its VERY interesting, although I'd say not for an immature audience either. I read them when I was 13.
And I have to agree with the people who have mentioned Robert A. Heinlein, whom never published a bad book in my opinion, and also John Varley's "Steel Beach" which is one of the best books I have ever read, Sci-Fi wise. Nice tribute to Heinlein in the book.
Hey Rob, Thanks for that tarball!
I'm surprised (Score:5)
Man's unique agony as a species consists in his perpetual conflict between the desire to stand out and the need to blend in.
Stanislaw Lem must read (Score:2)
Of course this would lead you to another big artist
rusian filmmaker Andrei Tarkovsky... and meditation after this could lead you
Martian Chronicles & Lensmen (Score:2)
It's a collection of unrelated and loosely-related short stories and novellas about mankind's initial exploration of, colonization of, and eventual abandonment of Mars.
I also find myself often re-reading E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen series, which is currently available from the Science Fiction Book Club in a two-volume set that I highly recommend.
Comment removed (Score:5)
Anything by Orson Scott Card (Score:2)
Unlike Asimov, Card can really write about people. Asimov is very good at producing scientifically believable scenarios, whereas Card deals with philosophical issues.
(Warning though, I started various people in my house on the series and we've started having clashes as people wait for the next book to be available)
Here are a few (Score:2)
Dune by Frank Herbert is good stuff, but you probably don't want to bother with the whole series - I quit around the 4th book because it was getting too repetitive for me.
William Gibson is great as far as visualization and the worlds he creates go. A few of the scenes are a bit more than you might want your 13 year-old daughter to read, but there's nothing that bad. By him, I've read Idoru (his best, in my opinion), Neuromancer (classic, you'll want to "jack in" too), Count Zero (pretty good), and Mona Lisa Overdrive (not fantastic, but still decent).
Neal Stephenson - Cryptonomicon. READ.
Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451. Good stuff.
Heller's Catch-22 is great. So is Burgess's Clockwork Orange, but that's almost definitely more mature than you want to read with your daughter.
Then there's George Orwell. I don't know if he's really Sci-fi, but he's definitely worth reading. Animal Farm, 1984, and Coming up for Air are all really good.
Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game is one of the best books I've ever read.
If you've got a while to spare, and you're in the mood for some fantasy reading, there's The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, but those are pretty hardcore.
Hope this was helpful. Have fun reading.
What about Arthur C. Clarke? (Score:2)
Asimov, Asimov.... (Score:2)
Cryptonomicon is a big read for a 13-year-old (Score:2)
I'd try Snow Crash first, personally.
Re:Real Classics (Score:2)
My recommendations (Score:2)
- Anything in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series (I'd start with one of the earlier books, like Mort or Equal Rites). This is fantasy but still funny and accessible
- My wife recommends Pratchett's juvenile series (starting with "Only You Can Save Mankind") but I haven't read them yet. You might also check out "Good Omens," which he wrote with Neil Gaiman
- Short story anthologies, especially older ones. I would look through them first just in case, so you can recommend some stories she might want to skip for a year or two.
- R. A. Lafferty is one of my favorites, even though he's definitely not in the major pantheon of SF gods. This guy thinks different even for a science fiction writer. Try finding an anthology called "Nine Hundred Grandmothers." One of the first stories that got me hooked on science fiction was "Slow Tuesday Night," and if you really want a hoot try reading "Hog Belly Honey" out loud.
--
Old school is the School (Score:2)
Re:Stanislaw Lem must read (Score:3)
Lem's wordplay is utterly fantastic -- and Kandel's job of conveying that in English is indescribably awesome. :)
...
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Poul Anderson. In particular I remember reading Trader to the Stars when I was a kid and loving it. Of course, just about anything with his name on the cover is worthwhile.
There's also A. E. van Vogt: Slan, The Players of Null-A, The Darkness on Diamondia, and The War Against the Rull. (The Rull are really, REALLY scary when you think about them... ST 20|IN 20 [telepathic]|WI 25 [collective entity]|DX 25 [8 appendages IIRC]|CO 20|CH -5 [coercive abilities + pure ugliness] ... up to 6 attacks/round, +2 to hit, damagewise they can rip the meat off your body bare-handed -- er, tentacled.)
Other faves:
Zontar The Mindless,
some for now, some for later (Score:5)
With that in mind, I'll mention a few that I think may be appropriate for a younger reader, and then mention a few that she may want to investigate as she gets older, or if she proves to be a precocious reader. I should note that some of these books have serious literary value, while others are genre "fluff" that I would include in any (more) complete overview of "science fiction".
Books for now:
Out of the Silent Planet - C.S. Lewis
Crystal Singer - Anne McCaffrey
To Ride Pegasus - Anne McCaffrey
Shockwave Rider - John Brunner
A Wrinkle in Time - Madeline L'Engle
His Master's Voice - Stanislaw Lem
Engine Summer - John Crowley
Impossible Things - Connie Willis (short story collection)
The Bloody Sun - Marion Zimmer Bradley
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Philip K. Dick
Battlefield Earth - L. Ron Hubbard
Moonflash - Patricia McKillip
1984 - George Orwell
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea - Jules Verne
The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams
Farenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury
Tiger, Tiger - Alfred Bester
The Trial - Franz Kafka
Lord of Light - Roger Zelazny
Doorways in the Sand - Roger Zelazny
The Postman - David Brin
The Andromeda Strain - Michael Crichton
Red Mars - Kim Stanley Robinson
Books for later:
Replay - Ken Grimwood (explicit sex)
The Gap series - Stephen Donaldson (rape, torture, violence)
To Say Nothing of the Dog - Connie Willis (plot complexity)
Split Infinity - Piers Anthony (explicit sex)
Glimmering - Elizabeth Hand (complexity)
The Books of the New Sun - Gene Wolf (complexity)
Beauty - Sheri Tepper (rape)
Stand on Zanzibar - John Brunner (complexity)
The Sheep Look Up - John Brunner (complexity)
A Fire in the Sun - George Alec Effinger (sex, drugs)
Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand - Delaney (sex, complexity)
Hyperion - Dan Simmons (sex, violence, complexity)
Both lists are woefully incomplete, but I'm sure that within a few hours there will be hundreds more messages naming books it would have taken me hours to recall. Besides, after you and your daugher read a dozen or so books off the many lists that have been posted here, you'll have a better idea of what you like and what you don't, as well as a better idea of where to look.
Good luck!
Can't stand the old stuff (Score:2)
But then look back at Martian Chronicles, and what do you see? Sure, it may be a deeply allegorical bookk, but that doesn't mean it's not free of its own gimicks. Pointy rocket ships and nuclear generators as the most amazing thing in the world? These things hamper my willing suspension of disbelief. I just can't believe the story when I hear about men in big bubbly space suits riding in giant pointy space-ships. I'm sure the same thing will happen if I try to read Snow Crash 20 years from now.
The only old science fiction I can stand is the kind that doesn't rely on gimicks. More specifically, the kind that doesn't read like it was written in the 1950s. The Stars My Destination. A Canticle for Leibowitz. And to a lesser extent (because their age is more obvious) Foundation and Dune. My biggest obstacle in Foundation was getting over the fact that everyone had names like they were from 50s sci-fi B movies. Other than that it's pretty age-clean (other than the fact that chaos theory shoots giant flaming holes in its underlying premise).
Don't get me wrong, I love gimicks, and I think they are great supplements to the plots of modern novels, but they are fleeting. Look at Hyperion for instance. I bet half of it will seem incredibly stupid in 20 year, and the other half will still seem as engaging and brilliant as ever. Ender's Game on the other hand, strikes me as though it sacrifices gimicks to concentrate solely on human beings. I think this is a good sacrifice to make.
Any other recommendations for sci-fi that's old but doesn't seem like it?
Re:I'm surprised (Score:2)
Re:SF 101 (Score:2)
Your list seems to be pure science fiction, though, no cyberpunk (think 'The Matrix') or fantasy (think 'Lord of the Rings'). Some might not consider these genres pure science fiction, but they have many elements present in science fiction and are enjoyed by many science fiction readers.
I can't believe nobody has mentioned... (Score:3)
Although probably not be very suitable for a thirteen year old, it's a must read for the rest of you.
top 100 sci/fi (Score:2)
"Hey ya'll, hold my beer and watch this!"
-- Last 5 seconds recorded on black boxes installed in SUV's in Texas...
Advanced reading? (Score:3)
Just picking it up as one of your first science fiction novels would be kind of like moving in from a very foreign country (no American TV... if such places still exist) and watching Simpsons: it would still be kind of funny, but not nearly as much as if you recognized all the pop-culture references.
Re:SF 101 (Score:2)
Some of these may appeal more to you than your niece.
Jonathan Lethem - several of his novels are often mistakenly placed in the fiction section rather than sci-fi. I can't recommend these enough. It's my personal opinion that he's one of the brightest American fiction authors today, and very underrated.
Girl in Landscape,
Gun with Occational music
As she climbed across the table
(Motherless Brooklyn, Amnesia Moon
fiction, not sci-fi)
Jeff Noon,
Vurt
Automated Alice (I recommend reading the
Alice in WOnderland books first though)
(Nymphomation and Pollen)
Iain M Banks - has written a lot of books, not all sci-fi (but then without the M in his name). Mostly his early culture books have been mentioned, but I think the series hgas improved as it has continued. It;s a good idea to read some of the first books just to get acquainted with the setting. Once you've read a few, I recommend Inversions, the latest in the series.
Excession
Against a dark background
Feersum enjin (could be tough to read, it
is written phonetically in parts)
The state of the art (short stories)
Michael Marshall Smith - My favorite author, period. While I think Spares is a masterpiece, some of its content may not be appropriate.
Only Forward
One of Us
Spares
What you make it (short stories, amazing. some are quite disturbing though)
Rikard
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Starship Troopers (Score:2)
Starship Troopers is one of my favorite books. This is not to say that I think it depicts the ideal society. The book is not a manifesto, propaganda, or a poorly executed satire (as some well-meaning fans think). It's more like The Republic -- it's supposed to make you think, not tell you what is right. The questions it raises are valuable in themselves.
As for my opinion on the most controversial bit: in the context of the U.S., I don't think the vote should be limited more than it already is. (Young people and some felons cannot vote) But this is mainly because voting restrictions would quickly turn into a political tool, like the tax code, or redistricting. It is a shame that most people don't care to vote, and it is tragic that those who do tend to vote selfishly. Although people are basically good, in any large democracy there seems to be a problem with a lack of civic-mindedness.
In any case, I highly recommend the book to any child or adult old enough to reason for themselves. The opinions in it are strong, but unlike TV commericals, it does not try to brainwash you. (The movie, on the other hand, is a grievous insult to any sentient being.)
You gotta read (Score:2)
Re:SF 101 (Score:3)
Ok, having got the gripes out of the way, here's my list:
My child's readling list. By two geeks. (Score:3)
Warning, these books are based off of reading level, not content. Books may contain violence, sex, lots of gay people, or christianity.
A wrinkle in time. by Madeleine L'Engle [randomhouse.com]
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland [spies.com] - (Note: get a copy of The AQnnotated Alice by Martin Gardner
The hobbit. by J.R.R. Tolkien [randomhouse.com]
Anything by Ray Bradbury [dragoncon.org], Robert A. Heinlein [nitrosyncretic.com], Alan Dean Foster [vt.edu], or Piers Anthony [hipiers.com]
Darkover (any of the books) by Marion Zimmer Bradley [darkover.org]
Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow by Orsen Scott Card [ender.com]
The Narnia series by C.S. Lewis. [drzeus.net]
A decent collection of Science fiction, mostly suitable for children [netreach.net]
Also, Please attend the Worldcon [worldcon.org], this year it's in Chicago [chicon.org] followed by Philadelphia, PA, then San José [sfsfc.org]. We have a lot of things for you and your children.
of course, our little one is only 6 months old. Mostly he's an excuse to reread Harold and the Purple Crayon [swarthmore.edu]
I aplogogise for any redundancies. This list took awhile to compile and find the links, especially as the co-author was breastfeeding at the time...
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John Wyndham (Score:2)
But, at about that age, I recall not being able to get enough of John Wyndham's stuff. The Chrysalids, Day of the Triffids, Chocky, The Kraken Wakes, Consider her Ways and others that I can't recall at the moment. Certainly not "pure" science fiction, and possibly a little bit UK-centric for a US reader, but a good read nonetheless.
My top picks, with primary themes: (Score:4)
-study of aristocracy, religious engineering and the creation of a messiah, rejection of computers in favor of the development of human potential resulting in continued relevance of human traits, race memory (though now discredited, it is still a fascinating idea), consequences of reliance on performance-enhancing drugs, the potential failures of perfect "prediction" of the future, the dangers of breeding humans
The Dosadi Experiment
-an incredible system of adaptive law, development of societies under pressure, the dangers of psychological experiments, underlying nature of human interactions stripped of pretext and niceties, the nature of bureaucracy, the illusion of democracy, sideline on manipulation through addictions, interesting ideas about controlling runaway progress
Starship Troopers
-jump engines, powered armor, a military-based limited democracy, a tribute to the infantryman of past and future, and a simple biologically motivated clash of intelligent species
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
-an anatomy of a revolution, the unexpected emergence of an AI, rational anarchism and the redeeming traits of criminals, realistic lunar colonization
Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars (3 books)
-despite the naive politics and silly interpersonal plots, the random details create an incredibly rich and plausible potential future that is extremely relevant to our time
Re:Here are a few (Score:2)
Brave New World is also another good Orwell story that is definitely sci-fi. It describes a future in which people are raised in test tubes, genetically engineered and programmed to fit certain roles in society. It is a excellent tale about the dehumanizing effects of technology but it does deal with the subject of human sexuality, so it may not be suitable for younger children.
When I read the book, the tragic fate of John the Savage invariably brings a tear to my eye. Definitely one of my favorite books...
--
Re:SF 101 (Score:2)
While I agree (somewhat) about the categorization, I also think that 1984 is very important to read. I read it at about 13, and it scared the living crap out of me, but also helped me to think critically about politics, language, and many other issues.
So leave it on the list.
-Doug
Are you kidding? (Score:2)
Realizing why the stuff is absurd is as deep a lesson as you'll get from any sci-fi.
Re:Here are a few (Score:2)
--
Re:Off the top of my head ... (Score:2)
As for the book, remember that it was written in 1959. It was in the early years of the cold war and his target audience was young boys who were born around 1945 who were hearing stories from their dads about the great war against the facists.
Listing for a sci-fi geek teen. (Score:2)
--Startide Rising by David Brin. Probably my first taste of sci-fi.
--The Hobbit --JRR Tolkien. I HAVE to find time to read the Trilogy of the Rings too.
--Dune --the whole series. I don't recall the author's name, but it's fascinating, intricate reading that goes fast.
--The Man-Kzin Wars --Created by Larry Niven. I found The Children's Hour fascinating. I love felinoid aliens.
--The Pride of Chanur --The entire series by CJ Cherryh. More felinoid aliens.
--Perelandra, Out of the Silent Planet, and That Hideous Strength --C.S. Lewis. It's a little dated, but Lewis is an excellent author, and these books are like candy. Check out The Chronicles of Narnia as well. They're aimed more for kids and are fantasy, but still, excellent, tasty reading.
--The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --I nearly died. Killer British comedy. Hilarious. All five books of the trilogy.
--The Harry Potter series -- JK Rowling. This is aimed more for kids, and it's a little more at fantasy, but still hilariously British. Think a combination of Hitchhiker's Guide and The Hobbit.
--A Wrinkle in Time --Madeleine L'Engle. Quite possibly one of my favorite books. Very deep.
--Sphere --Michael Crichton. Get ANYTHING Crichton.
Happy reading, and good luck.
Resist censoring your suggestions. (Score:4)
Expose a 13-year-old to Marx and they'll think their way out of it before they do anything stupid. Restrict their access until they reach 18 and you might have a revolutionary on your hands.
"Real" classics? (Score:2)
"Our myths, the myths of Tolkien and Homer, of Heinlein and Mallory are eternal; they exchange one name for another, cast off one mask and assume the next."
-- J. Michael Straczynski, creator of Babylon 5
I'm not so sure I agree with your assertion that what academia says are "classics" are "must reads" just because they are classics. Even ignoring the circular logic, you have to understand that as JMS has so astutely observed, stories repeat themselves; it is simply the dressing, the flavor, that changes.
I don't think the "our culture" argument holds, either. I know I didn't relate to anything in any of those works you listed as well as I related to, say, Ender's Game. Niven, Heinlein, McCaffrey and Tolkien had far more influence on my life then anything pushed on me in school.
If I can be so bold as to speak for those other then myself, I suspect a lot of the Slashdot readership's "culture" is science fiction and fantasy before "traditional classics".
Now, keep one thing clear: I am not saying one should not read those works. Frankly, I think they are all very good. But the reason for reading them should be "Because they are good reads", not because they define some arbitrary cultural tradition that may or may not fit anyone personally.
Remember that the Classics are the foundation that most of todays readings are build on.
True, but you don't have to sleep on the foundation to enjoy the benefits of a well-built house. If someone wants to study the "classics" because literary history interests them or whatever, then fine. But it should be the reader's choice, as only they know what they like. Far too many teachers I've had in the past assume that they can like a book for me. It simply isn't true.
My Suggested Authors (Score:2)
Everyone's giving lists of specific books. I tend to think that's a bit too specific. (Also, I don't want to have to go find the name of all 200 good novels that Asimov wrote =P)
These are the best three sci-fi authors ever (IMNSHO), I reccomend everything they ever wrote (almost):
These authors have written their share of crap, but they've also written some gems:
I probably left out some important authors, but the wrightings of the authors listed above should give you enough reading for the next 10 years...
Finish that thought! (Score:3)
Re:Starship Troopers (Score:2)
I'm told the film was rather different in some ways to the book (which I haven't read) but to describe it in those terms is silly.
Not being Paul Verhoeven it's difficult to say exactly what he was trying to get across, but I've always taken it as pretty much political satire, having a go at right-wing militarists. Which isn't to say that all right-wingers are militaristic or vice-versa. But it's not exaggerating unfairly and it's not even overtly judging. Any judgments are entirely perceived due to our social context.
I'm not saying it's the best film ever. I'm not comparing it to the book as I haven't read it. But to describe it as you did is ludicrous.
Greg
Offbeat suggestions for Heinlein fans (Score:3)
By age eight I was a major Heinlein fan, to the point where my great fictional childhood role model was "Kettle Belly" Baldwin. (My "real life" role model was a friend of my grandmother's named Ray Bradbury, who put the idea into my head that I might one day be able to earn a living as a writer.)
Back to topic at hand:
My offbeat SF reading suggestions are Mark Twain's "Letters from the Earth," "Adam's Diary," "Eve's Diary," and "Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven." These works are often packaged into a single volume, and are all worth reading not only on their own merits but also because they are where RAH got many of the pithy quotes he put into the mouths of characters like Lazarus Long, Prof. Bernardo de la Paz, Jubal Harsaw, Hugo Piniero, Sgt. Zim, and the other "wise but tough father" figures he used in almost all of his books and stories.
Yes, Heinlein plagiarized Clemmens. Frequently. I don't mind, but I think it's nice to know the original source wherever possible.
Indeed, much of the "theology" in "Stranger in a Strange Land" and later Heinlein books is somewhat derivitive of Twain's satires on Christian behavior. I often got the feeling that Heinlein had read Twain's beautifully ironic short story, "The Man Who Corrupted Hadleysburg," even more times than I had.
Some other Twain SF recommendations:
- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
- Tales for Good Old Boys and Girls
- Tom Sawyer, Aeronaut
These books may not be suitable for TV-raised teeners. 19th century writers tended to move slowly by today's standards. But they're excellent works and well worth the time of an adult who wants to delve into "science fiction" that was written long before Hugo Gernsback coined the term in the 30s.
- Robin
Re:Some books (Score:2)
Even better, they're available (in the UK, at least) as a 5 volume collected works, complete with comments on each story from Phil in the back to place it in context.
Thoroughly recommended.
Incidentally, if you've watched Blade Runner and enjoyed it, read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, the story it's based on. Not too long but a much better, fuller story IMHO.
Greg
The obligatory two bits (Score:3)
Must Reads
Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, Bradbury. They still pack more ideas into a small space then any truck-full of cyberpunk.
J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit should be read as young as possible, as kids can enjoy that sort of story much better then adults. Later on, they can try out The Lord of the Rings, but that requires some work to appreciate it fully, so go easy early on.
Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card. Quite simply one of the best books I've ever read.
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. Follow up with the sequels if you like (you will).
Personal Favorites
The Dragonriders of Pern series, by Anne McCaffrey. A pleasant mix of sci-fi and fantasy, with excellent characterization in relatively light reading. And you'll fall in love with the dragons, too.
Larry Niven. One of my favorite authors, his stories pack an education in the human condition and physics into the same space. I recommend his two short story collections, N-Space and Playgrounds of the Mind. If you prefer something longer, Ringworld is great. I also recommend The Mote in God's Eye, an excellent First Contact novel, and as Robert A. Heinlein (yes, him) said, "Possibly the best science fiction novel I have ever read."
C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia is an excellent series of fantasy, in the classic tradition of the fairy-tale. If the reader hasn't lost that childlike sense of wonder, they are excellent books. (There is also some Christian allegory if you like that sort of thing, but you don't have to get that part if you don't want to.)
I'm going to stop now, before I list my entire library.
Re:suggested reading (Score:2)
Vinge also asks big questions. One of the running themes through his fiction is, "What will we become?" He is asking what humanity will develop itself into. And he only shows us indirectly in his references to singularity. There is a web page here [caltech.edu] giving some of his thoughts on the concept. He doesn't try to give a complete answer.
A Fire Upon the Deep is a very worthwhile read as are the compilation Across Realtime and the prequel to A Fire Upon the Deep which I am reading right now, A Deepness In the Sky. Calling it a prequel is perhaps a bit strong. It contains a character who appears in Fire and takes place in a setting that he described in that book, briefly.
If I had a single bookshelf labelled Books That Made Me Think every one of Vernor Vinge's books that I have read would be on it.
Genetics of Dune (Score:2)
In any viable culture (that I know of, at least), true homosexuality is accepted, tolerated, ridiculed, or outlawed, but never generally praised. In the balance of things it's considered wrong, or at least wierd and deviant. Given one fresh Dunclone's reaction to Fish Speaker lesbians, I'd take it that it was considered a foul and evil obscenity in the ruling culture of the period. Harkonnens (especially the ultimate evil floating fat man himself) would be drawn by the perversity of it.
I think it would be pretty sad if they fudged the cultures of the Dune universe to make more politically correct novels.
Re:some for now, some for later (Score:2)
I remember reading it when I was very young (somewhere around 8) and it helped open my eyes to the vast amount of science fiction and fantasy.
Doug
missed a bit (Score:2)
Re:Real Classics (Score:2)
Another classic I'd like to add which falls into the fantasy category is Watership Down (I unfortunately don't remember the author).
Doug
funny Hitler reference (Score:2)
God Emperor: This Hitler guy killed like 60 million people.
Lackey: Wow, he must have had some really great weapons.
God Emperor: No, no, not with his own hands, he just ordered his armies to do it, like I do.
Lackey: Well, that's not too impressive, then, your track record totally blows his out of the water. Isn't that about par for you on a good day?
Startide Rising & Uplift War (Score:2)
The first book in the series, often overlooked, is Sundiver. It has some interesting concepts and lays the groundwork, but it's a bit more adult. (Or hyper-adult, since most adults I know would be "probates".)
The last three books in the series, actually a single work split for market reasons, follow the Streaker's attempt to get home. They are not light reading, but by the time she get's through everyone else's list she'll be a HS senior or in college and can appreciate these books.
Add Vonnegut (Score:2)
And don't forget Stanislaus Lem.
Re: Later Dune books... (Score:2)
The original trilogy (which was really one book, but split due to market constraints) was the classic Hero's Journey, as discussed by Joseph Campbell. The hero has divine birth (Royalty, Bene Gesserit genetic experiment), is unjustly deprived of his rightful position, successfully fights to regains it, then ultimately fails due to his hubris.
The fourth book is the necessary conclusion of Leto's story.
The last book (published in two pieces, due to market constraints), is the first book outside of the Hero arcs set in motion by the first volume. That leaves most people used to the first book feeling a bit put out, and the other people who would prefer the more contemplative nature of these books are unlikely to read them after the poor reviews from Dune fans.
For anyone interested, Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune are set 1500(?) years after Leto's death. Our heroes are the Bene Gesserit - *very* different than what you would expect from the first few books. They are locked in mortal struggle with the "Honored Matres" - a distorted echo of the BG returned from the scattering. The surface conflict mirrors the inner conflict faced by all affluent societies - when is it enough?
Re:Sci-Fi for teens (Score:2)
Funny you should say that. I read "Wizard of Earthsea" 5 or 10 times during my teenage 'read all the SF in the world' cycle. 20 years later I was scanning through it and the lightbulb went on - now I know what she was trying to say. A very enjoyable light fantasy when one is young; a lot deeper when one is older. That's what I would call a classic.
sPh
Dune goes downhill? (spoilers and bad 70s guitar) (Score:2)
(start cheesy 70s porno guitar)
Entrenched aristocracy gets lazy, hires bureaucrats, are eventually taken over by superbabes with ultraorgasmic powers sleeping their way to the top. Having reached the top, they sleep their way across the galaxy, holding entire planetary populations in sexual bondage until they meet our hero:
Dunclone Idaho! The sex-zombie with hyper-fuckadelic powers superior to those of the superbabes. Wait until their paths collide, and watch the arm-pit nibbling action that will decide the fate of the universe!
^_^;; (I don't care how funny you find this, don't moderate anything with "spoilers" in the subject so it's visible without clicking)
Censoring for a Thirteen Year Old & Reading Levels (Score:2)
I'd like to add to The Dull Blade's [slashdot.org] insightful comment about censoring your kid's reading. I agree with him almost completely:
This worked wonders for me. My parents showered me with books beginning when I was four; I'd read all of Asimov's famous stuff by the time I was your daughter's age. My mind hasn't been perverted in the least. And I still haven't ever giggled at sex, having been completely clued in about it through books prior to puberty.
The concern that a book is too advanced (conceptually or linguistically) for your child is a valid one. I am having to reread some books that I read ten years ago and didn't understand, now that I'm eighteen. But be careful - by reading works above her reading level, your child can improve her reading level, and she can grow to understand the world through sci-fi allegories in ways a history class could never teach her.
The school systems today make this mistake. Very few other people my age that I know in real life can read much above the level of a ninth grader - they were taught to read phonetically, and have a Pavlovian association between "reading" and "book report". I still get laughed at when I haul in a three hundred page book to read during a free period... but the laughter stops when I clip through fourty pages by the time the bell rings.
Bless my parents for teaching me to read themselves, and excusing me from the first-grade "huked awn fonix" classes.
_Rite of Passage_ by Alexi Panshin (Score:2)
sPh
Vonnegut (Score:2)
Bucking the Trend: The Worst! (Score:3)
Go read it. You are guaranteed to regret it.
Subscribe to Analog or some other mag (Score:2)
Asmiov for kids! (Score:2)
I recently read the first book of "The Norby Chronicles," a buncha short stories that Janet and Isaac Asimov wrote for kids -- compiled into book form. The first story was good. The second, okay. I'm much past 13 now, but it seemed a little sappy. This is a "don't expect the quality/depth that you usually do from Asimov" warning/alert.
I LOVED most of Asimov's stuff (essays, fantasy, sci-fi, mystery, etc.) and would gladly welcome a giant all-of-his-writing anthology. Unfortunately, I don't quite have room for an OED in my current apartment...
Resist censoring, check with parents, & teach D&D (Score:2)
Still, there is one problem, which is this: the girl is the guy's niece. He might want to check with her parents before giving her sci-fi or fantasy with themes or scenes that he KNOWS might conflict with any beliefs that they have. They, after all, are the ones who are raising her and are the ones who have the final say.
Hey, and don't forget to teach her a role-playing game or two! I wish I'd started a long time ago. I'd be a cool D&D chick, not the poser I am now.
Asimov, Crichton (Score:2)
Yeah, I think Asimov did write a few not-so-worth-reading books. Some of his 'children's' stuff. Norby Chronicles, maybe (tho' I haven't read them) the Lucky Starr books (I think he himself didn't like them). But those are the exceptions. Knock yourself out.
Dumb it down a bit (Score:2)
Personally, I'd start off with some of the novels that are based on popular Sci-Fi movies and television programs. The subject material will be a little more familar and easier to grasp, and they often don't push the envelope to the extent that you may find yourself explaining some unconfortable themes to your 13 year-old (as opposed to something like "Bio of a Space Tyrant" - please).
By the same token however, be advised that this same lack of an edge means that the books are often pablum. They often are the Sci-fi equivalent of Harlequin Romances, or Mack Bolan: Executioner books. Bu that doesn't mean they can't be enjoyable to sit together and read through.
From a personal perspective, around the age of 10-12, I recall devouring all the "Star Trek" anthologies that populated the school library. Mostly filled with short stories based on the Original Star Trek episodes. Light stuff, quick reads, easy to get into. Eventually, I ventured into 'harder' sci-fi (Asimov, Harrison, and then Gibson), and I was pretty much hooked.
So take an easy approach, and you might find you stay longer, rather than hitting the wall right away, and completely zoning out due to some god-awful ACC novel.
Catch-22 (Score:2)
I read Catch-22 when I was in 9th grade, so, 13 yrs old, and I liked it. It wasn't too difficult.
As for Ulysses, well, I read part of that this year, and hated it. Boring, tedious, etc. Perhaps I should try that one again in 10 years.
Re:My recommendations (Score:2)
I think this is a really excellent suggestion. I don't have it anymore, but I used to have a volume titled something like The Greatest Science Fiction Short Stories of All Time. I believe this collection had Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll (kinda political, but interesting) and Nightfall. There was a wonderful old short story about a scientist who had created a super fast-evolving species that he was subjecting to all sorts of stresses to push them along. Another story I enjoyed was about an intelligent Sea Creature species that was developing "space flight" into the atmosphere and lithosphere.
Also, the short story collections from Amazing magazine and the yearly Hugo collections are great resources, too.
Bristling with ideas, short stories are a wonderful way to introduce a teen to Science Fiction.
Don't get me wrong, character development and plot are important and I do believe that Science Fiction is best when it's engrossing and involved, like any good literature, something for which a short story may not be the best vehicle. But, if you and your niece enjoy the story, you may be able to follow it up with other works by the same author or other works set in the same "Universe".
I would also recommend things that some may consider not to be exactly science fiction, but encourage the same kind of thought processes. To this end, I highly recommend LeGuin's The Lathe of Heaven. It's pretty short also, almost novella length.
Being a niece, I might seek out female Science Fiction authors to help encourage her to perhaps someday write herself. At least it will help defend her against an implied bias that Women don't really get Science Fiction. Science Fiction tends to be a male dominated genre, but some of the best is written by Women. Almost anything by LeGuin would be good. Of course, there are many others to choose from here. You could seek out those who write under male psuedonyms, Marion Zimmer Bradley, for example, has written a number of short stories under male pseudonyms (there are many many others). Perhaps you could read it first and surprise her with the information about the background of the author.
-Jordan Henderson
I didn't like Songs (Score:2)
List of stuff, parody-style (Score:2)
What classic lit reminds us of Slashdot? [segfault.org]
Of course, thanks to suggestions, I now must add Beowulf, The Great CmdrTaco, and Chicken Soup for the Geek's Soul.
To get the essay to which the article refers, email me.
Enjoyable hard SF ***for a 13 year old*** (Score:2)
My first SF was a collection from Scholastic, called "STARSTREAK! Stories From Space!" Yep, complete with a cheesy picture of a rocket on the cover.
Inside were such gems as, "Does A Bee Care? (Asimov)," "Who Goes There? (the short story which got turned into the movie 'the thing')," and um...lots of others.
The first SF story I read with the knowledge that it was SF was in Asimov's SF magazine: "Press Enter:" by John Varley. Possibly the best living SF author period. (Another Varley story everyone has to read at some point in their life is "The Persistence of Vision")
Pick up copies of the pulps (Asimov, Analog, On-Spec if you're in Canada) and read 'em all. There's good, bad, and (in?)different, but there's a great variety no matter what.
Oh, and of course, I, Robot.
For a girl new to SF (Score:2)
Many people have listed their favorite SF books of all time. Here is a subset that I believe would be of interest to a 13-year-old girl new to SF. (Having once been in that category, I feel qualified to make recommendations.)
Re:Starship Troopers (Score:2)
The movie is the cleverest sf satire ever made with a big budget. It was a comic book that mocked war movies as propoganda, bad scifi movies, 90210 and its ilk, and the fascist ideology of the original novel.
And the great thing was, like the book, it was still subtle enough that a lot of people didn't get it. Some critics wrote it off as just another stupid scifi monster movie (which it is to the kind of people who actually watch 90210, and what drove most of its sales), while others trashed it as being the very kind of propoganda that it mocked.
A few essentials (Score:2)
The Phantom Tollbooth, by Norton Juster
Flatland, by Edwin Abbott
Also very good, but perhaps a little challenging for a young reader, is the Riverboat series by Philip Jose Farmer.
As for movies, it is harder, because many of the best ones (Bladerunner, Total Recall) have very adult situations that may not be appropriate for a young viewer (use your discretion).
Re:John Wyndham (Score:2)
From a female perspective ... (Score:2)
There are a number of new female science fiction writers -- Connie Willis, Pat Murphy, Suzette Hadon Elgin all are good. Many of the men mentioned by others here are great too, of course. One method we found led us to some great writing we'd missed is to get hold of a list of Hugo and Nebula Award winners and go from there. We've also discovered favorite authors in the "Year's Best Science Fiction" series edited by Gardner Dozois.
One of the great ones (IMHO) who I didn't see mentioned is Samuel R. Delaney, and I think his earliest stuff is probably good for a 13-year old; his later writing, while great, can be pretty strong. Same is true of Phillip K. Dick. As others have mentioned, it's probably a good idea to at least skim through any book before passing it on to a child. There's a short story by one of those women that was so horrifying I still wish *I* hadn't read it.
Of children and adults (Score:4)
"Contact" (Score:2)
I thought "Contact", both the book and the movie, were very good reading and I'd absolutely recommend it.
If you can't figure out how to mail me, don't.
SF for a 13 year old female newbie (Score:2)
Remember, we can't assume this 13 year old girl has read *anything* in or out of the field, and it's supposedly our intention to make her into a lifelong SF reader.
With that in mind, my own initial suggestions to get her started would be as follows:
(1) the Heinlein short story "The Menace from Earth" (young female protagonist with flying scenes in the Moon and problems from an entirely unexpected direction);
(2) the Anne McCaffrey novella "Weyr Rider" (young female protagonist with flying sentient dragon - but SF, not fantasy and one of the earliest Pern stories);
(3) the Madeline L'Engle novel "A Wrinkle in Time", which won the Newberry award and still has one of the best emotional pay-offs of any juvenile, and which (yes, again) has a young female protagonist;
(4) the Heinlein novel "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel", with a wonderfully clueless teenage male protagonist dealing with a much smarter, braver, more able preadolescent female hero (Peewee) and a gradually expanding scenario from small town to galaxy-spanning adventure before returning us literally to Earth and that most serious of problem, picking the right university. Connie Willis says this is the one book she'd give anything to have written, and I've successfully (starting in grade 6) sucked in eight people into reading "that SF stuff" by the simple expedient of reading this novel out loud to them;
(5) Clarke's novel "Childhood's End", which sneaks up on genuine pathos in a quite unexpected way and involves probably the best female characters in Clarke's SF (not exactly saying much) as well as the best of the early SF attempts at transcendence;
(6) Asimov's short story "Nightfall" and novella "The Ugly Little Boy", which are about fear and love respectively and are two of Asimov's most emotionally affecting short works;
(7) Daniel Keyes' short story "Flowers for Algernon", which works better at short length than does his expansion to novel length, "Charlie" and is the single most accessable classical SF work for someone never exposed to SF before;
(8) Roger Zelazny's SF novella/ novel reworking of Greek myth to dramatic and ironic effect, "...And call me Conrad", which is not at all what it first appears and includes a delightfully ambiguous (anti)hero (is he Pan?) and a bookend of scenes involving a very competent woman who saves the hero;
(9) Heinlein's novel of growth and responsibility, "Citizen of the Galaxy", which as subtext involves the Frog Prince hero developing from a very frightened slave child to a maturing newly adult Prince of Industry (metaphorically speaking) and along the way having gradually more mature involvement with and comprehension of the people, including the women, around him;
(10) Andre Norton's "The Zero Stone" and its sequel, which is a rollicking good juvenile adventure and ends with a very strong subtext of dawning sexual maturity from a character that up until then is nearly genderless and which has been very popular with young girls when I've introduced them to SF in general or Andre Norton in particular;
(11) Vonda MacIntyre's classic (and award-winning) short story of a young woman healer, "Of Mist and Grass and Sand", named after the snakes she uses to heal (paging Dr. Freud), which is a wonderfully poetic post-apocalyptic tale that I like to give people of all ages who hate that "SF stuff";
(12) Ursula K. LeGuin's award winning SF novel "The Left Hand of Darkness", which clearly and wonderfully distinguishes and contrasts gender as opposed to humanity and caused me to be a helluva lot more tolerant of differences between people, even people I thought were dead wrong; and finally
(13) Joanna Russ' SF classic short story "When it changed", about a human colony centuries after a plague killed off all of its males reencountering standard two sexed humanity. Most SF is written from the point of view of the majority, dominant culture. This story works on a whole bunch of levels and is very understated with a very strong "payoff".
It's not as though there aren't many other choices to infect her with the SF bug, but these should keep her interested *now* and I've used all of these to good effect with young girls before. Remember that most SF is still more of interest to males, not females, at least in this culture, and talk with her about each of them at the level she wants to talk about them... and *don't be condescending*.
Supposedly to Deep for Thirteen (Score:2)
The short stories, in particular. (Score:2)
I'd wait on the Foundation (somewhat heavier reading, not as much fun IMHO), though it sounds a little late for that.
Russel, Leinster, George O. Smith (Score:4)
Russel and Ian Flemming worked together in the British Department of Dirty Tricks during WW II. This is the think tank that designed the spy techniques and equipment, along with the same for escape from prison camps. (I think they were also responsible for the British Home Guard manual - the difinitive text on guerilla warfare in a modern occupied city.) After the war they both became fiction authors and used their experience in their stories. Flemming went straight to spy fiction, modeling "M" in the James Bond series after himself. Russel did Science Fiction, with a heavy socio-political bent. But some a few of his works draw directly on his war experience, _Wasp_ the most of all. It's his unimplemented plan to drop a saboteur into WW II Japan, recast into an interplanetary war (with the Japanese secret police only lightly disguised...)
_And Then There Were None_ - one third of the collection _The Great Explosion_ - is the origin of MYOB and TANSTAAFL, and dear to the hearts of Pacifists and Anarchists everywhere. The three stories in the collection show how three different hypothetical cultures successfully resist an expansionist empire.
_The Space Willies_ is a hilarious romp where a lone man wins an interstellar war between two multi-species empires. From a prison camp. By making a joke, and then refusing to admit it was a joke. (_Hogan's Heroes_ is a pale shadow.)
Try to get the originally published versions of _The Space Willies_ and _Wasp_. Russel had (or was?) an excelent editor, and the modern reprints of the unedited manuscripts show it. The unedited _Wasp_ is only slightly awkward and still excelent, but _The Space Willies_ was edited down to a half-Ace-Double from a novel, and improved significantly by the tightening, pacing, chaff removal, and even the title change - from _Next of Kin_.
Leinster does fine yarns with with moral and social as well as technical concepts playing key roles, and does them with a vocabulary that makes them accessable to a child (if occasionally annoying an adult). His "Med Ship" series in particular is an excelent introduction to "Golden Age" Science Fiction.
Also from the Golden Age: George O. Smith. Read his _Venus Equilateral_ collection and you'll want to resurrect vacuum tube technology and hunt down the discoveries that got lost when it was abandoned for silicon. (Then go do a web search on "Farnsworth AND Fusion"... B-) ) Or try _Highways in Hiding_ / _The Space Plague_ for a marvelous superman/chase/conspiracy story set in a future where two Psi powers are commonplace and an accepted part of the background! (How do you do secrecy when about half the population are telepaths, and most of the other half clarivoyant? Poker is interesting... B-) )
Oh boy...here we go. (Score:4)
Isaac Asimov: the 'Lucky Starr' books (very Heinlein-ish), I, Robot
Arthur C. Clarke: Islands in the Sky (very Heinlein-ish), Childhood's End, City and the Stars, Rendezvous with Rama
Raymond Z. Gallun - The Planetstrappers (rare but very good and VERY Heinlein-ish)
James Blish - Welcome to Mars (same comments as above)
Anne McAffrey - The Pern books (especially the Harper Hall trilogy, and 'White Dragon'), The Ship Who Sang (& sequels), To Ride Pegasus (& sequels), The Rowan (& sequels), Coelura
Mercedes Lackey - Arrows of the Queen (& sequels), Magic's Pawn, Born to Run (& sequels with and without other authors), The Oathbound (I & II)
Andre Norton - the 'Solar Queen' books
James Schmitz - Witches of Karres (a total classic! hard to find), the Telzey Amberdon books
Joan D. Vinge - Psion & Cat's Paw
Robert Lynn Asprin - the 'Myth' books - very funny
Piers Anthony - the Xanth books and the Apprentice Adept books
Harry Harrison - the Stainless Steel Rat books, The Daleth Effect
Joe Haldeman - The Forever War
James White - the Sector General books
F Paul Wilson - Healer
EE "Doc" Smith - the Skylark series, the Lensman series, Subspace Explorer & Encounter, Spacehounds of IPC, the Vortex Blaster
Edgar Rice Burroughs - the John Carter of Mars books, the Venus books
Poul Anderson - the 'Flandry' books
Joel Rosenberg - Guardians of the Flame series
Douglas Adams - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy & the next 2 books - skip the rest
Robert Silverberg - Across a Billion Years
Steven Brust - the Vlad Taltos books - great stuff
Elizabeth Moon - the Deed of Paksenarrion books, also some good recent SF novels
David Eddings - The Belgariad, the Malloreon, the Elenium, and anything related to any of these. Great characters.
Marcia J. Bennett - if you can find anything by her like Shadow Singer, Beyond the Draak's Teeth,
or Seeking the Dream Brother
Ann Maxwell - the Fire Dancer books - hard to find but worth it
Ray Bradbury - Fahrenheit 451
Orson Scott Card - the Ender books
Frederik Pohl - the Heechee books
C. J. Cherryh - Merchanter's Luck
L. Ron Hubbard - Battlefield Earth
Roger Zelazny - the Amber books
David Brin - The Practice Effect
Aldous Huxley - Brave New World (mmmmm...soma)
That's all I can think of right now. There's LOTS more...
Re:SF 101 (Score:3)
Whereas it merely bored the living crap out of me, and had it been my first introduction to so called "science fiction" I'd have never read any more.
Much of the classic science fiction that's been listed here, such as Jules Verne, is horribly dry and best appreciated somewhat later in life.
Rather like giving Shakespear to 7th graders, it does nothing but turn them off to it forever.
Re:What about Sheffield? (Score:2)
Re:Resist censoring your suggestions. (Score:2)
I'll agree with that, however I'd veto a lot of the books that have been listed here for other reasons. A lot of older fiction tends to read like a travelog. 13 year olds are not known for their patience. I believe it is largely forcing people to read things that they are not ready for or not interested in that turns so many off to reading for pleasure.
Absolute Requirements.... (Score:2)
Asimov's Foundation Series
Asimov's Robots Series
Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land
Clarke's 2001 (the rest of the series is a wash to me)
Herbert's Dune Series
Adam's Hitchiker's Guide To the Galaxy Series
I'd throw in Heinlein's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" but not everybody agrees that's a classic.
Then there's a couple of modern books that make sense:
Gibson's Neuromancer
Stephenson's books, read at least one of Snow Crash, The Diamond Age, and Cryptomnicron
After that, you've established your SF credentials and are free to persue other works of the genre.
Re:Starship Troopers (Score:3)
I'll probably read the book one of these days - I've liked the other Heinlein I've read - but it really isn't relevant to this discussion. A film can be perfectly good on its own despite being a travesty of an adaptation. For example - I liked Blade Runner. But read the original and you realise how bad it is as a rendering of that story. Now, that doesn't diminish the quality of Blade Runner as a film, it merely makes it a poor retelling of the original story.
You appear to regard the film as an example for us to follow, too: perhaps unfortunate, given the level of debate as to exactly what Heinlein actually meant. Never mind.
You may not have enjoyed the film, but that doens't mean it wasn't entertaining. Equally, while it's not a nice thing to do (assuming it's true - I've not heard this said elsewhere), the quality of the movie is not affected by the truthfulness or otherwise of his dealings with the estate.
You didn't like this film. Too bad - there's plenty of films I don't like either. I'm remarkably picky. But I did like it, along with several friends, some rather well read in SF.
Not having read Plato's republic doesn't help here, but...
That strikes me as far too broad a generalisation. I can see what you're getting at but that doesn't make it any truer.
Some good political SF will be taking the form of a fictional exploration of alternatives, sure. But I've always enjoyed the what if? side of SF, and that then provides possibilities you haven't got there. What if we could demonstrate sentience of other races - how would their rights now be defined? What if we were in a Star Trek-style environment and were having to shape a system of interaction between groups who have no common roots and very few common values?
Political SF can take many forms. I don't dispute you've identified a major form, but there's more to it than that by a long way.
Bottom line: you like the book but not the film, I like the film but haven't read the book. I'm told by others the film isn't an especially close rendering of the book but I don't care. It stands on its own two feet, both as entertainment and thought-provoking SF. Whether it provokes the same thoughts as the original is only relevant in the context of comparison with the original, and to refuse to look at it in any other light is monumentally short-sighted.
Greg
My List (Score:2)
What about Kurt? (Score:2)
Where's Kurt Vonnegut?
For my buck, essential reading includes:
Slaughterhouse Five
Breakfast of Champions
...and my personal favourite:
The Sirens of Titan (probably a good start for someone younger)
You really can't go wrong with these titles, IMO.
Re:Starship Troopers (Score:3)
The movie may have had some merit if it was a standalone, without all the stupid classroom scenes, bad morality angles, and nazi-esque settings. It sunk far below just a cheap action flick with T&A by not only not getting the ideas, but mocking them, and by doing so, showing that the director is Nazi obsessed.
The director, I don't know what he was smoking, decided that anything different to the USA is a facist state with nazi overtones. Instead of presenting the same questions to the characters, letting people watch them decide what's important enough to make them risk their lives, the director simply shows the whole society as war-obsessed nuts.
Where did the scene with the soldiers handing the kids the guns come from? The nazi uniforms? All creations of the moron directing it.
If the deep thoughts aren't appropriate for a movie, then rip them out and leave the action, but don't distort them, twisting them to preach instead of to ask. That's the worst possible at all levels.
And then they bring to stupid love triangle into it, like it's impossible to have a movie without someone falling in love. And they end it with a ST:TNG-ism straight from Deanna Troy "I feel fear" "Its afraid!"
My friend sums up ST the movie as "based on the back cover of a book written by R.A.H." I would take that one step farther and add "interpretted poorly, loosely based, and maliciously directed" to that.
Space Trilogy (Score:2)
Not fit fot a 13 year old? (Score:2)
I have been reading science fiction without any selection by an adult since the age of 8. I can't think of a single SF book which I would not let a younger person read because it is somehow "harmful". The only thing these books may cause harm to is to your twisted image of what it is like to be 13. Have you all really forgotten what's it like? It was almost two decades ago but I still remember.
----
Re:Starship Troopers (Score:3)
Paul Verhoeven's Dutch. As in from the Netherlands. I think the chance of him refusing to accept anything other than the US as valid is rather low.
Anyway, on with the post.
Erm...
T&A? OK... I don't dispute that there's nudity in the film (I'm not blind) but T&A sort of implies it's gratuitous. Now, think back to the two scenes concered. The showers and Johny and Dizzy in the tent. Would you have objected to the shower scene at all if it were all male? No, probably not - there's plenty of similar scenes in other films. And a big point in this film is that gender barriers just aren't there. Pilots tend to be female, but that's because they're better. Now, the main reason we don't see this most of the time is that there's a collective hangup about mixed nudity. I'm not saying that's bad, but why is single-sex nudity acceptable but mixed isn't? It's a perfectly sensible scene, helping to establish the parameters for the society.
Now, think back to the tent scene. Do we see every last sordid detail in slow motion? No. It's just another part of the story and a fairly understandable one, under the circumstances. I wouldn't describe it as gratuitous.
No...
If you remember, Johnny's parents were rather opposed to the whole thing. What we saw was a standard society - BUT one where military service had been decided was necessary for voting rights. I wouldn't go for that idea myself but I can see why others would, especially in that situation.
Look at when Johnny's about to leave the military. He stay in after his parents are killed. He'd originally decided it was worth it to try and keep Carmen, but changed his mind. He then changed it back again, presumably desiring revenge against the bugs.
We are seeing why the individuals concerned are choosing this course of action over another. For goodness' sakes, we even get them discussing their motives with each other! In the main, they're not psychopaths. They simply accept that military service has its perks in their society and feel that it's worth it. Describing the whole society in this film as war-obsessed nuts is simply inaccurate and unsupportable.
You may not like those elements, but we're not discussing how accurate an adaptation the film is here, we're discussing whether it's any good.
In this society, I agree soldiers handing kids guns is a little tasteless. But this is speculative social SF and we're not talking about this society. The military are an accepted, everyday part of life in this society. In that context, how is this any different from (for example) sitting kids in a police car and letting them try on helmets? The fact that they're guns is irrelevant - the soldier is just another part of this society and the gun is his tool.
Nazi uniforms though? I don't dispute Carl's uniform was a little suspect, but anyone else's? No, not really. And given that he was pretty much at the top by the time he started wearing that trenchcoat, he could choose what he wanted to a degree.
Oh, come off it. This film isn't preaching.
You may well perceive criticism, but how can you support that? You can't, it isn't there. It may come across as critical but at no point are they even indirectly criticised as a society. It's merely that our framework for the film generates implied criticism. Show the film to another society and I suspect the reaction could be different.
There's then the questing of how the original was intended... I've heard it argued with fair conviction both ways, so to use this against the film as an adaptation strikes me as odd.
Your point being?
They ended on a victory, showing the humans taking out their commander. Entirely sensible and in keeping with the style throughout.
I can see that you don't like the film and that's fine, we're all entitled to our opinion. But you seem to be letting your dislike of the film cloud your judgment excessively here. Stand back, stop thinking of the original as tightly as you seem to be and look at it again. It's a lot better than you give it credit for.
Greg
Re:Piers Anthony (Score:2)
Good for the stuff that Anthony puts out, kind of the equivalent of a b-movie.
Not sure you'd recommend this to a 13 year old girl... I mean the guy rapes his wife a knifepoint in one of the books.
Thought of a few more... (Score:2)
_Under Pressure_ by Frank Herbert (also has another title which I can't remember - I am getting old). The pyschology of technology - or is it the technology of psychology? Somewhat heavy on the military theme. But really pushes the idea that how people interact as they use technology is more important than the technology itself.
I used to have an anthology of George O. Smith's "Venus Equilaterial" stories. Somewhat 1950's, but a good set of engineering mysteries mixed with space opera.
Isaac Asmimov edited a lot of anthologies of 1930's - 1970's SF short stories. Various anthologies of Hugo winners, etc. are also good. Short stories can be less intimidating than novels, and reading the 1930's stuff can be good for a laugh and an intro. to the genre at the same time.
As to the various comments on what is appropriate for a 13 y.o., I would make three observations:
1) At the ripe old age of 38, I can't imagine what it is like to be a pre-teen/teenager today. But based on what I see on VH-1, network television, and the teen section of the magazine rack, there isn't anything in any of the books listed in this discussion that will be corrupting, or even news to, a Western 13 y.o.
2) By the age of 14, certainly, I had read 75% of the books listed that had been published at the time. I suspect most of the people reading this had done the same. No significant damage done and possibly a lot of benefit.
3) Isaac Asimov once compared SF to a technical candle: expose a 12 y.o. to a good selection of SF, and if he (she) has an inborn desire/talent for technology, he will be drawn to it as a moth to a candle. Pretty accurate in my estimation.
sPh
Oops... (Score:2)
_And Then There Were None_ - one third of the collection _The Great Explosion_ - is the origin of MYOB and TANSTAAFL, and dear to the hearts of Pacifists and Anarchists everywhere.
Actually, it was MYOB, F-IW, and the basic use of "initial slang", i.e. acronyms, as shorthand for homilies. TANSTAAFL showed up in Heinlin's _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, another Anarchist utopia story (though a bit more diverse, rather than Russel's more homogeneous Ghands - Ghandi-influenced pacifist anarchists).
There's a story behind TANSTAAFL, too, beyond the one in which it appeared...
Seems that Milton Freedman was attending an economics conference, and went out to lunch with another economist. On their way and during the lunch they continued an old economics debate: "Are there any universal rules of economics?", with Uncle Miltie taking the pro-rules side.
Upon leaving the restaurant Milton said ~You know, that was a marvelous lunch. And the restaurant had excelent service. Wouldn't it be wonderful if it was free?~
Of course his dinner partner said "There's no such thing as a free lunch." And Milton pointed out that he'd just stated a universal rule of economics, destroying his own argument and winning the debate for Milton. B-)
And just incidentally creating a beloved homily for Libertarians and other capitalist-anarchists the world over.
Which reminds me... Don't forget to turn them on to L. Neil Smith's "North American Confederacy" series, starting with _The Probability Broach_ and continuing with _The Venus Belt_
Re:Anything by Orson Scott Card (Score:2)
I have - got an autographed hardcover copy (hooray for living in Greensboro). It's as good, if not better than, the original. I highly recommend it.
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