Tivo Hacking? 32
bonehead asks: "Does anyone know of any projects underway to reverse engineer the Tivo? Tivo and Philips seem to have a very hostile attitude toward end-user upgrades, which I find highly disappointing. While there have been success stories reported of users adding additional disk space, there are also threats from the company about 'throwing a switch' that would disable user-modified units. It seems to me that an open set of utilities for formatting drives with Tivo's proprietary file system and adding additional space would be quite useful. Going a step further, how about simply using the Tivo as a hardware platform and creating a fully open-sourced set of software to replace theirs? Any thoughts or experiences?" (Read on ...)
Not to steer this conversation too far off topic, but this is a disturbing trend that I'm noticing among computer hardware manufacturers. I wonder if they seek to emulate their cousins in the software industry with their EULAs which they think gives them the right to dictate to the customer how they can use a product that exists on the open market. I can't tell you how many of the current issues we've handled on Slashdot result from this kind of thinking. Am I the only one that is bothered by this "kill switch" that software (and now hardware) makers are building into their products?
What gives them the right to treat us in this way?
Why do we let them?
Re:Do it yourself video recorder (Score:1)
We should not respect broken business plans. We should behave in ways that benefit us. If that means cracking open the TiVo, then it should be done.
There are a couple issues here. First, I have no problem with a consumer cracking open any device he or she might own, but I also understand that if I do so, the manufacturer has the right to tell me "You're on your own. We cannot support you. Your warrenty is voided". If I disagree with this policy (and personally in most cases I do), I should not buy the product.
The second is the MPAA issue. TiVo has to try to protect the content on the hard drive or they will be put out of business by the MPAA. It's not TiVo's choice; The MPAA sets the rules. For example, if TiVo were to put a standard SCSI connector on their box for external storage using an ext2 filesystem, the MPAA would likely throw a fit and start the lawsuits...
Re:Do it yourself video recorder (Score:1)
I'm not suggesting that Tivo help out with this, I'm simply suggesting that a Tivo-like device that is free from some of these constraints might be useful, and that the Tivo itself would make an ideal hardware platform for such a device.
I agree. Any company doing a box like TiVo's will have to contend with the MPAA. Individuals building such a box won't (hopefully).
Jim
Re:Because you don't own your TiVo! (Score:1)
Is there anything in that documentation about what sources you're "allowed" to record from?
Re:I *won't* own a TiVo!...uh, wait... (Score:1)
uh, wait a minute
I certainly won't be involved in any purchase/licensing of a *new* one, but I'd *love* to find someone with a no longer licensed unit looking to sell it cheap so I could take it apart and make something usable out of it.:-)
Re:Business plan is not broken (Score:1)
The ideal situation, IMHO, would be to buy the Tivo for $399, reformat the drive and install the as-yet-nonexistant open-sourced replacement software, and have all the cool features that Tivo isn't free to implement on a low-priced platform.
Re:Whats changed? (Score:1)
As for "throwing the switch", no, the quote did not come from Phillips, it came from a Tivo employee in response to one user reporting a successful hard drive upgrade.
It should be clarified that this "switch" would not totally disable the unit, it would just cut the unit off from access to the Tivo service (TV listings and software updates). This, of course, would disable all of the features that make the Tivo such an interesting device.
Now, the interest in replacing the software arises when you consider the availability of IDE hard drives up to 75 GB in capacity. A pair of these would give you a Tivo with around 160 hours of storage, much better than the 14 and 30 hours that are available. Unfortunately, the software on the device has mechanisms in place to prevent such an upgrade. Additionally, an open-sourced replacement would be free to implement useful features that Tivo will never be able to due to pressure from their business partners, such as automatic commercial skipping.
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Nope, you're most definitely not the only one who thinks that way.
but I have no idea where to start
In my mind, the place to start is to come up with a replacement with an open architecture. To that end, the Tivo itself seems like the most cost-effective choice for a hardware platform.
Re:Do it yourself video recorder (Score:1)
It's also my understanding that the Tivo service is also being operated at a loss, although the local dial-in access that they implemented with the most recent software upgrade should ease that a bit as it will greatly decrease their 800 # expenses.
Re:Do it yourself video recorder (Score:1)
Nobody is arguing that point. However, it's one thing to simply declare the warranty void, it's quite another to render the device useless (or nearly so).
The second is the MPAA issue. TiVo has to try to protect the content on the hard drive or they will be put out of business by the MPAA. It's not TiVo's choice; The MPAA sets the rules. For example, if TiVo were to put a standard SCSI connector on their box for external storage using an ext2 filesystem, the MPAA would likely throw a fit and start the lawsuits...
I understand these issues, and I don't fault Tivo for covering their own backside. However, that doesn't eliminate the usefulness of some of these features, nor my desire to be able to add them in after the fact.
I'm not suggesting that Tivo help out with this, I'm simply suggesting that a Tivo-like device that is free from some of these constraints might be useful, and that the Tivo itself would make an ideal hardware platform for such a device.
Re:I *won't* own a TiVo!...uh, wait... (Score:1)
Come on, do you really think they're gonna hire a staff of repo-men to run around the country breaking into people's homes to reclaim units simply because they're not placing their nightly phone calls?
Re:roll your own TIVO replacement (Score:1)
No, it doesn't exist. If it did, this entire discussion would be unnecessary.
Re:Because you don't own your TiVo! (Score:1)
Absolutely, completely not true. The box has the ability to do a manual recording by giving it a channel, start time, and end time. You know, the way we've been doing it with VCR's for years now.
Business plan is not broken (Score:1)
People who make business plans should expect that most of their customers will make rational economic decisions.
Let's see, the current price for a 30 hour Tivo is $399. I can get a lifetime (of the unit) contract for $200, or pay $10/month, which includes software upgrades as well as the scheduling service. Total: $600
Or I can buy a PC and write my own software and build my own remote, and build another IR thingie to manipulate the directtv box (possibly). Let's see, a 300Mhz celeron + MB + 128MB memory plus video decoder + mpeg encoder/decoder + 20GB HD + nice case + extra HW for the IR stuff + NIC (to get the schedules) + other stuff I forgot. Is that less than $600? I don't think so. Not to mention time, both to assemble the hardware and to write the software (which is non-trivial -- the Tivo interface does a *lot* of cool stuff.) (Yes, I've seen/messed with one.)
So the rational economic decision is clearly to buy the Tivo. Now, there is certainly the hack value and coolness factor in doing it yourself, and the possibility of implementing features that Tivo doesn't provide, but don't forget that the Tivo is aimed at people who can't set the clock on their VCR, much less program it to record correctly.
Do I wish I could upgrade the harddisks myself? Of course. But the vast majority of the target audience probably doesn't care. And honestly, if you're 30hrs behind in your TV watching, are you likely to ever catch up?
A tivo can be rendered entirely useless (Score:1)
If you do not subscribe to the service, a system reset will place your Tivo in a state where any attempt to watch TV will cause the Tivo to crash and reboot. All you can do is surf the menus.
You have to subscribe to the service and download the channel info (3 hour process) before your Tivo can watch TV.
roll your own TIVO replacement (Score:1)
I've already got a BT based video capture card and lots of spare disk space, but I'm wondering about capturing video to disk (I know I can play video directly into a window).
With modern processors you should be able to do some kind of video compression without specialized hardware, but it's not clear to me that the CPU has access to the video data (the BT card needs to be connected to the VGA feature port on the display card, which suggests to me that the BT card is writing directly to the display memory, rather than going through the CPU/main memory).
Another problem is the requirement for some pretty good compression. Raw, low quality video needs something like 4MB/sec, (320*200 pixels/frame * 2 bytes/pixel = 128KB/frame * 30 frames/sec = 3.8MB/sec) which will add up pretty rapidly (we're looking at 220MB/min or 13.6GB/hr) so compression is pretty much a necessity.
A reasonable video compression scheme will give you somewhere between 10:1 and 100:1 compression, which would mean that you could get between 10 and 100 hours of video into a 13GB disk, which is currently on the low end of the storage size spectrum.
Once you have the video data on disk you can easily burn it to CD (with a CD-RW) or back it up to tape (with a tape drive), which addresses the complaint about recording to VHS tape.
The BT card I have already has both input and output for standard video, so you wouldn't need a special card just to output to your TV. The rest of the system is a pretty standard bargain basement PC, which can be had for around $550 (US) and should have plenty of processing power and memory. The total system cost, retail, should come to less than $1000 (US) (I'd bet more in the $800 range), which is more than TIVO, but may be worth it in order to secure your privacy and continued consumer liberties.
The only open questions seem to be digital capture of the video data and access to a suitable codec. All the other (imporant) TIVO features can be taken care of either with cron jobs or perl scripts (and some suitable access to online TV listings, which are available in most metropolitan areas through the local nuewpaper's web-site).
Re:Business plan is not broken (Score:1)
Unless of course your Tivo is recording programming for 2 or 3 people. Or you want to record at a level higher than the minimal. Or you want to save a movie for a friend/self while your out of town.
I can see many reasons for a 30 hour Tivo. I have the 14 hour version and I don't think its enough.
Quack
Re:roll your own TIVO replacement (Score:1)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Spell it dilemma (Score:2)
- On the one hand, Tivo is not selling what we'd regard as an "open" system.
- On the other hand, the people they're trying to sell to are largely not sophisticated hacker-types that would want to tune the filesystem.
For Slashdot folk to fawn incessantly on Tivo is a dumb thing; reaming them for not selling the "TV hacking product" some Slashdot folk would like is about as great an idea.They're basically building an embedded system, with Linux as the kernel.
Those that consider Tivo Heros of the Open Source Revolution are FOOLS as what they're up to is selling a TV reprocessing product, not developing Linux to the Next Level.
They do conform to the GPL, offering a copy of the sources to the GPLed portions, on request, so they're not just a bunch of scofflaws.
They're selling what amounts to a sophisticated VCR.
More importantly, Tivo sit in a subtly dangerous position, from a legal perspective.
A "too powerful" Tivo box could be rather like "Captain Crunch" Draper's too powerful Apple Modem proposal of yesteryear, essentially a "license to break MPAA rules."
After the joys, this year, of lawsuits over MP3s and DVDs, I do not think Tivo would be excited to jump into this seat...
Whats changed? (Score:2)
As for 'throwing the switch' to 'disable' the modified devices, all I can say is that I haven't seen any direct quotes from philips on this. They may simply be saying they will not be responsible if modified devices do not work in the future after software upgrades.
Re:roll your own TIVO replacement (Score:2)
On Linux, you would probably have to run several different programs to get all the functionality that TiVO has, assuming such software even exists (AFAIK video support for Linux is shaky at best, and realtime hardware-assisted MPEG2 encoding is practically nonexistant). Something like one program for playback, another for recording, possibly another for slo-motion and certainly another for TV guide. All told it would be a horrendous pain-in-the-ass to setup, assuming you could. Then further integrating all that functionality into a single IR remote - well, you get the picture. Personally, I'll shell out $300 any day over doing this myself, although I could, and it probably would be cooler. There comes a point in every hacker's life where he seems to realize that there are just more important things in life
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Re:roll your own TIVO replacement (Score:2)
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Re:Why? (Score:2)
Not really. At least not anywhere near the price point.
Consider what the Tivo offers as a hardware platform. Hardware MPEG2 encoding, hardware MPEG2 decoding, NTSC output, IR receiver with well-designed remote control, TV tuner, AV inputs and outputs, and an enclosure designed to look nice in an AV system.
If you can point me to another hardware platform that offers all of these features for anywhere near the $300 that a new 14 hour Tivo costs, I'd love to know about it.
Re:I *won't* own a TiVo!...uh, wait... (Score:2)
But if the licensing of functionality can be 'repossessed' for non-compliance with the data harvesting of the unit, then that would be a bad thing. Is there anyone out there who has disconnected the unit from the phone line for a long period of time? Does it still work in manual mode?
If enough people have their units crippled, then a hack similar to the one starting this post would be a cool thing. An open source tivo that doesn't harvest data would certainly be just as valuable as a fully functional one. Plus the large disk hack for 160+ hours of storage would be cool, especially with a good indexing system. Then you could store a dozen of your favorite movies and watch them to death without wearing down your tapes.
As an aside, when I was a student in the US, the cable company would regularly send people around to try and reclaim their boxes. Mostly happened at the end of semesters, and the guys were pretty agressive about it. They'd knock and get into the apartment under any kind of pretense, and once inside they would demand pretty loudly the return of the box. It was kind of stupid, since we didn't have a TV in our place, just a computer and terminals. But a previous tennant had kept the box, and our address never got out of their system. The repo-men were pretty cool once we gave them a tour of the apartment, but one of them couldn't understand how anyone could live without TV. We had 1200 baud modems in those days, and would waste our evenings on multi-player ASCII trek games.
the AC
Re:Because you don't own your TiVo! (Score:2)
The box will only record shows that are listed by their service. I had difficulty getting it to record c-span and one of the local access shows (wayne's world lives) because the individual programs weren't coded in the national database.
the AC
Because you don't own your TiVo! (Score:2)
I looked through the documents that came with it, and realised they do not actually own the box, it is being licensed. The telephone connection is required to keep the box operating, and unplugging it for some length of time will render the box unusable. If the unit does not call in after a certain amount of time, they claim they will repossess the box. If any tampering is done to the box, criminal charges will be brought with no exceptions.
Heck of a bad time to buy my nephew a tool kit with secure torx wrenches
the AC
Why? (Score:2)
Why support the Tivo at all then? If they aren't going to be nice then they can forget my business. By spending the time to reverse engineer a closed platform you will could up just supporting it if there are alternatives. Isn't there another more open device that could fufill your needs? If so why not use it.
Re:Business plan is not broken (Score:2)
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Re:Do it yourself video recorder (Score:3)
Of course we should be hard on them! If businesses want to survive in a capitalist economy such as our own, then they should not come to rely on a consumer willing to pay a pointless fee to make up for their loss. I'm tired of all these companies (Netpliance, FreePC) crying foul when their loss-leader plans blow up in their face. You should come to expect that and count on it, and not feel like the consumer owes you something to make up for your manufacturing loss.
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Re:Do it yourself video recorder (Score:3)
People who make business plans should expect that most of their customers will make rational economic decisions. Despite P.T. Barnum's advice, a business plan that counts on the stupidity of its customers is broken and reflects the company's contempt of its customer. We should not respect broken business plans. We should behave in ways that benefit us. If that means cracking open the TiVo, then it should be done.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Do it yourself video recorder (Score:4)
They are also walking a fine-line with the MPAA regarding recording copyrighted material. The MPAA is afraid that people will make a digital recording of first-run (Pay per view/HBO, etc ) material and start distributing it on the net. If the MPAA gets unhappy, they'll attempt to shut TiVo down. TiVo must at least attempt to keep the recorded material "protected" or they'll be put ot of business by the MPAA.
If you are interested in doing a box yourself, Here [cadsoft.de]'s a page describing the creation of one. This guys advantage is that he is dealing with a satellite receiver so the data is already professionally compressed.