On Networking Two (Or More) Houses? 30
An Anonymous Coward offered this curious query: "A friend of mine lives four houses down from me. Of course, we're both flaming geeks, and have gotten it into our heads to network our computers over this distance. We've tossed around a few ideas, such as a few of the available wireless kits, or stringing up Cat-5 along with the phone lines. The problem is, we haven't found anything that can send a signal far enough, or else the process of connecting our houses together with wire would surely leave us electrocuted, and in jail. Anyone know of something that might work?" Interesting thought. Shaking my Magic 8-ball for an answer, it responds: "Possible, but solution may be expensive."
Re: Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:1)
wireless (Score:1)
cat 5 and repeaters (Score:1)
But if I was you, I would speak to someone into Amateur Radio. If he's only a few doors down, you should have line of sight, and if you have that, you should be able to rig up something pretty easily.
Line of Sight (Score:2)
Directional Antenas on an Airport (apple). The base stations are about $299 (US), and can be configured using avalible software to work with x86.
There are many other ways...but that is the first one that pops into mind. I recall a story on slashdot about a DIYS microwave link ( link here [d-a-v-e.com])
802.11 is a good solution (Score:3)
If you just want to bridge one network to the other, perhaps a card and a ethernet bridge is your solution.
The PlayaNet [playanet.org] project has some good pointers on 802.11 hardware, including antennas, even though their focus is Burning Man and not your residential neighborhood...
Re:Similar problem... (Score:2)
Technical-wise, a pair of parabolic antennas and high-power base units should cover it. Forget those consumer grade units that whimper at well under 1W. IIRC, the legal limit is 3W and there are units out there that will pump out the power to drive 1km without a license.
For the original poster's situation. Four houses is nothing. (Unless you live in some place like Montana where four houses over is the next county.) If he's got line of sight, he could pick up a pair of yagis and any ol' base station will do. Probably won't even need to worry about interference from other signals. (If you're going over a few hundred meters, you should ask around if anyone else has a link up.)
bagh (Score:1)
In my day, we didn't network our computers from house to house. If we wanted to share MP3's with a friend, we transfered them to punch cards and walked the boxes down the street. We shared a direct connection via a 400 baud modem and we liked it.
All of this fancy schmancy 'microwave los networking' is for lazy soft young'ns who can't get up and haul a box of punch cards down the street.
If you're hard core... (Score:2)
Ethernet over Fiber.
That is, either 10baseFL or 100BaseFX.
You can pick up 10baseFL PCI ethernet cards for around $150 each, and 100BaseFX cards run $250 or so. The biggest expense will be the fiber itself, which could be $200-300 or so for a 100m run. Get the PVC covering since you're going to be running it outside.
You can get up to 1km or more over single-mode fiber.
If you're going hub-to-hub, use an AUI->10BaseFL tranceiver on each end (making sure each hub has an AUI connector). Don't use Media Converters - they suck and drop packets all over the place.
Realistically, fiber is probably too expensive for you. But it's so neat. :-)
And, of course, fiber doesn't have those nasty problems with weather interfering with microwave/infrared transmissions. Though you do have to worry about the birds sitting on the cable...
-Erik
I did this once. (Score:1)
We lived directly next door to each other is the thing.
Called up Blue Stake to see if we could dig, got permission from the 'rents, and laid a PVC pipe along under the grass with 4 100 foot Cat5 cables. We did 4 incase one got ruined by weather or something and we didn't want to have the hassle of rewiring the whole thing.
From there it's pretty basic networking. I'd have to say getting Samba to work was the hardest part =)
It was so easy because we didn't need repeaters or anything wireless since we lived so close.
Fun stuff.
Re:cat 5 and repeaters (Score:1)
Low tech (Score:2)
10base2 cards are just about free. I haven't priced cable, but it should be cheap at a commercial cable store (not Radio Shack/Home Depot/...).
Multiplexing is well supported for just about any device for kernel 2.4.0test4.
The problem with cat-5 is that it's not as resistant to weather and trauma as coax. That may or may not be an issue, though running multiple cat-5 and multiplexing them might be a better choice.
Re:Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:1)
Similar problem... (Score:1)
I am presently plan to use two 802.11 wireless lan card and directional antennas.
First, I'd like to know if anyone knows any good place (online) to buy wireless land equipement. The cost is here a major concern. And I doubt there are trees in the way of the waves, so I need a resonably strong signal.
Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:3)
Putting copper on poles is a horrible idea. Sticking it in the ground isn't much better. One lightening strike and you've fried both ends of the connection.
My company built its new office building right next to the old one. For several months, we were working out of both. As such, we had to drag the phones and network between buildings. Initially, we were going to pull a 600-pair cable between the building for the phones. (A big fsking cable, by the way.)
After a couple hours of talking it over and hearing horror stories from our telecom guy, we went with fiber at nearly double the cost. Living in Florida, the lightening capitol of the world, it made sense.
If it were me, I'd go wireless. Using 3COM AirConnect [http], you can get 11mbps at 300 feet and less at more. With fancy ears, you can get even more range.
Of course, if you don't go wireless, think about fiber in the groud encased in interduct. That will be more expensive but is far better than copper.
Your best bet may be generic ADSL with a VPN though I doubt that would be nearly as satisfying to your geek urges.
InitZero
More information please (Score:1)
1) How far apart are the houses really? Ok, so your friend is "four houses down" - well how far is that in feet/meters? As several people have asked, are we talking Montana back-country, Houston suburbs, or what?
2) What is between you and your friend? Four houses you say - anything else? Any concrete fences? Trees? Oil pipelines? Got a picture or two you could post?
3) Who is between you and your friend? Depending on the distance, and given all the technical details others have provided, it sounds like it might be worthwhile to get to know your neighbors. Would they let you dig a ditch at the end of their backyards? No? Would they perhaps change their minds if you offered to plug them in to the network too? Now that'd be cool - you could start a real "Network Neighborhood". Some cooperation here might also improve your chances of getting one of the cheaper alternatives to work (e.g. one with a repeater halfway, etc.).
Re:Line of Sight (Score:2)
Re:Similar problem... (Score:1)
I'm searching for good places where I could have info on wireless networks and good places to buy the gadgets online.
Hmmm... (Score:2)
Anyway, if you have line-of-sight between the two houses, I'd go for wireless (preferably RF/microwave rather than 802.11 or other shorter-range types). Here's a list of links that you might want to take a look at:
Wireless Projects, Vendors, and Products [gatech.edu]: Big collection of links on all sorts of wireless networking. If you can't find something here, give up.
This [qut.edu.au] is a general outline of wireless LAN.
Ah, here's a bit from
..Ah, here we are - the DIY 10Mbit/s microwave project that was linked from
Hope these help...
How far is it? (Score:4)
First, measure the distance accurately. 10baseT has a 100m (328 ft) nominal distance limit. In the city, that would span 4 houses easily. Are you in the 'burbs? You could try pushing it a little if you use good-quality solid conductor cable. If you only need 2x, and can bury pipes, you could run 120VAC to the middle of the run and install a hub as a repeaer.
10base2 (thin-net, cheapernet) is readily available and has a 185m distance limit. (Note that even point-to-point, you MUST use a T-connector and a terminator at each end, unless you get a hub with built-in termination.) Again, repeaters are possible, although they're getting hard to find at good (mass-market) prices these days. 10base5 (old-fashioned thicknet) goes 500m. It's a pain to work with, and you need a good electronics junk shop to find the components cheap, but if you can find a long enough piece of the appropriate coax, you'll be cruising.
If you can't find 10base5 cheap (any high-tech companies that have been around for a long time might have a pile of components in a back room somewhere), then fiber is the cable of preference.
See what you can find, then ask a networking Old Hand how much you can push the specs. You can probably manage some. With low-loss well-shielded coax you can probably push 10base2 close to the 10base5 spec, since you don't have a bunch of intermediate nodes on the cable messing things up - it's just one straight clean cable. (Obviously, avoid kinks in the cable, get the connectors on the ends really well, and so on.)
Another alternative is to use a couple of DSL modems. That can go a heck of a long way [patton.com] over twisted pair. Although it's not as fast as ethernet or even some wireless solutions, they are getting pretty cheap. You can sometimes get them discounted from folks who want to sell you DSL service.
Re:Hmmm... (Score:1)
Re: Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:1)
why is the Cat 5 Ethernet running to my office is any more vulnerable than the Cat 5 Telco which is copper for 1.5 miles to the CO?
Minor nit, first. Your telco isn't running CAT5. It's probably CAT3 if anything.
TO answer your question: grounding.
The phone company doesn't care if everything in your house gets fried. Thus, if you walk to the demarc, you'll probably see a three-foot aluminum pole in the ground. (Copper is too expensive.)
The phone company does care that their 5ESS (or whatever switch they got) is protected. The central office is grounded to bedrock. As I explained in my earlier message, that's what the electric company does. That's the only way you can hope to protect your investment.
So, you're right. Wire in the ground is equally likely to be hit. The only difference is that the phone company, with a multi-million dollar investment to protect, is better protected that your 56k modem and PC behind an APC box.
InitZero
Re:Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:1)
The strike that toasted the motherboards was the second time I had trouble from lightning. After the second time I went and bought some APC coax surge protectors and grounded them all according to the docs. I've read that those are essentially the same thing as a polyphaser, and their presence did no good at all. Every other strike has just toasted the card, with the coax run end to end ungrounded. Takes a few minutes to fix, where the motherboards had me down for a week.
The line runs through heavy woods on what is the highest hill for miles; we and our neighbors lose phones, televisions, power transformers, etc. with depressing regularity. What information I've found about how to prevent ligntning damage tends to be contradictory about single or multiple ground points, in ground or above ground, etc. For my particular application that might all be moot anyway, as I suspect from the near random nature of the damage over the years that it's near field or ground surge rather than direct current that's causing most of it. About the only consistient information I've found on lightning protection is that lightning is funny stuff and does weird things.
I'm going to fiber before I run out of coax NICs anyway.
Re:Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:2)
I've got a 1200 foot 10Mbit coax run between two buildings, and so far have a collection of over 20 fried NICs to show for it... and two mobos with traces actually vaporized from the board...
On the other hand, I lucked into a bunch of 10bt NICS cheap, so I can afford to go through 4 pair a year (what I'm averaging), and at the time I installed the link fiber would have been too expensive. I still plan to upgrade as soon as I can kick the budget loose.
If you can swing fiber, you'd be a fool not to. The Netgear GA620 uses duplex SC fiber connectors, retails for $350 or less, pulls 20MB/sec or better TCP bandwidth in linux, and with the distance you've got to travel you can probably get a pre-made fiber patch cord long enough. If you have to terminate the fiber yourself, well, that'll be a bit more expensive.
Good luck convincing your neighbors to let you string cord across their yards/houses, and good luck keeping that cord away from lawnmowers, squirrels, kids, etc.
Arcnet. 2.5Mbps, incredible range (Score:1)
Re:Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:2)
Ethernet is run over common 50 Ohm coax. Did you ever think of zipping over to the local ham radio store and pick up a 50 Ohm gas lightning trap?
Also... Most people don't bother, but one end of the coax is supposed to have a grounded terminating resistor. Most people just tack on a regular old non-grounded terminator, and wonder why they keep frying boards. You can get away with it in a small room or office, but it is part of the spec... Kind of important when you start to approach the spec limits.
Temkin
using my extra point for safety warning (Score:2)
Running power and communication wires in the same conduit is in violation of the National Electrical Code, which probably means that it's in violation of your local building codes and almost surely will void your homeowners insurance.
As someone else suggested about a month or two ago in another Slashdot thread, check with your local phone company about the availability of "dry" loops--like a second phone line for each house, but wired directly to each other at the phone company and not connected to the phone system at all.
Re: Don't Run Copper (Think: Lightening) (Score:2)
Couldn't one just have good quality surge protectors on both ends, ie APC, etc?
One of my friends is an airline pilot and a ham radio operator. Given his obscene pilot's salary, he has collected $250,000 or so worth of radio gear.
When he installed his 120-foot commercial grade tower, he looked into lightening protection. Did I mention that Florida is the lightening capitol of the world?
The local utility (Florida Power and Light) gave him the most detailed and helpful advice. Namely, unless you run your grounding rod to bedrock (which is what the local utility does with its poles), you can't even pretend that you could take a direct hit.
The $7.95, three-foot copper rods you get from radio shack do two things for you. First, they drain whatever charge you have in the structure so that it is electrically neutral. That means the structure is less likely to attract lightening. Second, they give you a false sense of security. The fact of the matter is, a three foot rod going into sand (as is the case here) or even good soil can't dissipate the energy from a direct lightening strike.
Same goes for your surge protector. Cheap ones will protect you to 500 or so volts. More expensive ones will protect you to ten times that. None will protect your computer from a direct lightening strike which we know from seeing Back to the Future [bttf.com] carries 1.21 gigawatts [home.net] of electricity.
So, to answer the question directly, no, good surge protectors won't save you. Neither will gas lightening traps though that's better than nothing, I guess. (I've never use them on ethernet.)
As I said before, wireless or fiber are the only real options if you want to directly link the two homes at high speed. If less speed is needed, VPN over DSL would be a good alternative. Just stay away from copper.
InitZero
Re:Arcnet. 2.5Mbps, incredible range (Score:2)
The real problem people keep talking about here under the guise of lighting protection is different grounds. In the US, they typicaly put a few houses on each transfomer and if your not on the same one, you will get some serious current flows on the ground of whatever cable you use.
That ground link should set off your ground fault circut break (if you have one). You can get some isolation by using cheap hubs that have one of thosue cheap wall pack transfomers. If your brave you can test it by floating its ground up. Plug in just the hub (not the computer) and connect the metal ground to the hot lead of the 110AC (its the smaller blade on the left). You will either fry the thing completely (while testing your circut breaker) or find out the thing doesn't use an exteranl ground or you'll fry your self. Either way it can be fun.
Once you've got your network hardware floating relative to ground, then you might want to pick up an isolating transfomer. These things are 110V in and 110V out but are isolated to keep service guys from frying themselves while working on TV's and power supplys. Once you have that, you will want to run about a 10K resistor between its isolated ground and your local ground. 10K will keep stuff from floating too much but limit the current should there be a problem. Measure it with a volt meter to be sure.
Pull the plug when there is thunder nearby. Thuderstomrs can induce large impulse currents in wires along the ground.
Other than tring to keep everything floating, you can also try using simple ballins. These are like the 300Ohm to 75Ohm adapters for TV's. They are just a simple transfomer and you used to be able to get them for 10baseT.
Re:Low tech (Score:1)
Why not use high speed internet? (Score:2)