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Citywide Networking With Bluetooth? 11

Posted by Cliff from the neighborhood-networks dept.
An Anonymous Coward asks: "WaveLan and other cards promise wireless Internet, but can be quite costly in lower-income areas. I know that Bluetooth [?] technology is supposed to be used in close proximity to each other, but can it (in large numbers) be used to hook up a congested city? Although Bluetooth is only supposed to work within a few meters of other Bluetooth devices, I have read that by upping the power, the range can be increased to 100 meters. Instead of using relatively expensive wireless LAN cards, Bluetooth is supposed to cost just a few bucks (may be a few tens of bucks with higher power?). What if a highly congested city were to mount these Bluetooth devices on rooftops to create a mesh of Bluetooth receivers and transmitters? At a few optimum locations, connections to the local back-bone could, essentially wire a whole city. These devices wouldn't have to be in direct line of site, since a chain of Bluetooth devices would eventually get to the back bone. I understand that it may be slow and there may be lag, but it is better than no Internet at all. It will also be very cheap, since marginal cost of getting Internet service in this scenario would be extremely low. I need some technical feedback here. Is it possible? What possible problems exit and can they be solved?"

People interested in this subject might also want to check out the older article, "Wireless Networks in Metropolitain Areas"
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Wireless Networks in Cities with Bluetooth? More

Wireless Networks in Cities with Bluetooth?

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  • Bluetooth is specifically design to be a short range wireless standard, and not designed for medium and long range deployment. To try and use it in this situation would require significant work in the standard to accommodate fading, multi-path and other medium range RF problems.

    Consider the anaology to transport, there are bicycles, skateboards, scooters, motorcycles, cars, vans, RVs, trucks, minivans, trains, planes, buses, etc. There are many different modes of transport because each has been designed to fit its niche. Trying to design one that fits all, or trying to extend (e.g. a bicycle for intercity transport) is not economically viable, and has drawbacks.

    The Bluetooth standard has been extended in range and bandwidth, but should remain a short range technology. It is better to use something like 3G wireless for medium to long range, as it has all the necessary design issues solved for medium to long range environmental conditions. 3G also blends the likes of PCS (very short range used for inner city). 3G also has significant more bandwidth than Bluetooth.

  • I've been thinking about a similar project. I gave up on bluetooth because the range limitations and the annoying click-through license they had on that massive thousand page spec. (If they can't even publish the spec without a EULA, then I think it will eventually be doomed to the kind of patent and license ambiguity that WAP is.)

    What I wanted to do was make low-bandwidth devices which would also be routers and hop messages from one to the other. The initial application I wanted was a two way pager like device, such as those from skytel, which would instant messaging or email. If the device couldn't find the recipient within range, but could find another device, that device might re-broadcast it. I was thinking of doing this in the 2.4 GHz or 900 MHz ranges. If you can design a protocol that can adapt well enough, using this with higher bandwidth and more powerful equipment might give you wireless internet. But I just wanted email and instant messaging, like that which you can do on the newer cell phones.

    Setting up a protocol to do that with any kind of effectiveness is hard, but DARPA did some research on it around the same time (or a decade after) they were doing the internet routing protocols. Whatever you do, all the re-broadcasting and hopping will cut down on the bandwidth (because you have to shut up while someone re-broadcasts your message) and latency, but it should be enough for instant messaging of text messages.

    Anyway, one interesting gadget I ran across that I thought might be of use as a prototyper was the cybiko, a children's toy which multi-hops messages. The company is supposedly releasing an SDK, and I was waiting for them to put it out to see how low-level it went, if I could modify the networking protocols or not.

    Their web page is www.cybiko.com; unfortunately they went flash, so I don't even know what the most recent news from them is. The $129 price tag is more than my impluse buy level for that type of thing. I've posted on slashdot a few times asking if anyone was hacking these, but no one ever responded, which is probably a bad sign.

    I like the multi-hop part of the cybiko, because it creates a powerful network (well, powerful in it's geographic reach, not bandwidth or latency) without a massive investment in an infrastructure which then has to be paid off over time with the subscriptions. I like the idea of buying devices with cash and just having them work, and work better as more people get them, without having to give your name, credit card, and a DNA sample to some company that then continually bills you for more than they told you it would cost, tacking on roaming charges and FCC connection fees and all the other small frauds. It should be a system which automatically gets better in areas where it is used, and there is no wasted investment in areas where it isn't. (With a cell phone you are paying for a lot of rural towers that are not making money.) I envisioned special "repeater" devices with no UI that someone could buy and put up to increase the network in areas where they wanted it.

    Who wants to start a company ? I'm sure that if it takes off then Motorola will just start pumping these out and drive us out of business, but it could be fun.
  • And to think people were worried about cell phone radiation...geez...
  • I'd be interested in talking more about this over email. Drop me a note at andy_turk@hotmail.com.

    Andy
  • This would really take off if we got teens to cheat on tests with this.
    It has a lot of other counter cultural uses.

    It is a great idea becuase it completely reorganizes the middle men. Therefore more people with MBAs will have to work in McDonalds.

    But is the American public full of sheep? Yes it is. Maybe we need to do this in another country first.
  • The Nokia wireless router is a campus product. Are the likes of Verizon going to allow one of their hardware suppliers take business away from them ?

    Amateur packet radio people have had wireless repeaters for years.

    What would be *really* good would be for all the wireless router people to adopt some open protocols...
  • Teens (and others) already cheat on tests using the IR data transfer on the newer calculators. While you have to explain why you need to use your instant messaging device or PDA or cell phone to help you do algebra, a calculator is an instant excuse. So I don't think we are going to compete there.

    I also think this is something sheep could go along with. You don't have to be anti-something to use it, it should work better than the existing methods, and be cheaper.

    You have to go with the Napster principle; if you make it easier to break the rules rather than to follow them, the sheep will gravitate to the easy method in mass.
  • On the contrary, not only do I think it may work, I know this is being planned.

    Imagine:

    You go into a store, let's say Kinko's. In return for filling up your wireless phone/pda (a WID) with their catalog and special offers they allow you to use their phone lines for free local voice or data calls.

    All via bluetooth.

    Think about it. It costs nothing (apart from BT gateways) for a store to offer this service. The more densely populated the area, the more likely you will be in range.

  • Bluetooth is designed to enable devices to communicate when they are within a few feet of each other, right? But it's not even out and doing that yet, is it? What you're describing is more like 802.11, which is designed to create wireless computer networks. It's an international standard, has been out for more than a year, and there are millions of devices using it in many countries. It's 11mbs, so it's plenty fast, and it's very cheap.

    Apple used just 18 AirPort base stations to provide wireless internet to over 400 simultaneous users throughout a whole convention center at their Worldwide Developer Conference. There are a few airports in Texas (actual airports, with planes, not AirPorts) that have 802.11 throughout, so you just take out your wireless notebook and you're connected. Schools are doing this, too. As it grows in popularity, I'd expect to see restaurants and coffee shops and hotels get on board. It makes sense any place where people take out their notebook computers.

    I have Apple's AirPort at home, hooked to DSL. Amazing stuff. The Internet is just sort of THERE. When I got an iBook, with a tough exterior, 5-6 hours of battery life and 802.11, the whole notebook computer form factor actually made sense. It's suddenly completely self-contained, and you just throw it in a bag to take it with you. Lounging on the couch or in the backyard while surfing the Web is pretty cool. Taking out your notebook at someone else's office and just logging on to their wireless network is great as well.
  • Excellent Idea! So Excellent that Nokia (of all players) has implemented it in a product they are soon to release. See http://www.nwr.nokia.com/rooftop/index.html If you are serious about starting a company, write to me at brian@blacknail.com and we'll talk more ;-)
  • That sounds like an awesome product from Nokia; in all the various research I've done I hadn't come across it.

    Of course, the application I had in mind was a mobile low-bandwidth one, while this nokia product is a stationary high-bandwidth one (much more suited to the original question here). I would like to see what algorithms they are using though, I'll download those pdf documents from their site.

    I am completely serious about starting a company. I'll email you later tonight.

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