Why Are Licenses To Microsoft Still Mandatory? 23
Space Cow asks: "I am in the market for a laptop computer and priced some machines at Dell. You have no choice during customization (unless you choose the more expensive Linux machine) to avoid purchasing a Microsoft OS and a Microsoft Productivity suite. I spoke with a Dell sales rep and he said that they can easily remove the Microsoft software, but the price doesn't change! What? I have to pay for 2 MS licenses even if I don't want their software! I thought this was changing due to the case against Microsoft and other recent events (Refund Day, etc). Any ideas of how to get Dell to lower the price for a no software machine? If I buy the machine with MS software, am I eligible for a rebate?" It seems that even when they are being watched, Microsoft is still trying its best to cram its software down our throats. Microsoft long ago removed the rebate clause from their EULA so now it appears that the only way to get Linux installed on Dell machines is to pay them more for the privilege. Would someone please explain to me the logic behind that?
Dell configuration options... (Score:1)
The problem is that DVDs themselves work fine under NT, you just can watch movies with them. We don't want to watch movies, just read data. I can understand their ordering system throwing up a warning about the limited functionality under NT, but to completely block that configuration probably just lost them a sale.
This is just a guess, but... (Score:1)
Please note that these are just my personal opinions and should in no way be seen as facts of any form
-GreenHell
Re:Dell configuration options... (Score:1)
It's Called Tech Support (Score:1)
Usually when someone doesn't get the machine with the OS we spend countless hours on the phone in tech support with them trying to install their own OS. Not every computer user is a Slashdot genius.
If Dell doesn't drop the price, the money is going into their pocket not M$.
Brian
Microsoft is Evil [bbspot.com]
licensing contract (Score:4)
The second reason comes down to support costs. Yes, you might be able to get Linux, FreeBSD etc on a system, but Joe Shmoe sure as hell can't. At least not without some tech support. When he can't get his winmodem working under FreeBSD he's likely to demand a replacement. Having Windows on the computer allows the tech staff to test something under known standards.
Save the flames please. The cost to train an entire phone support staff on another OS is astronomical. I believe IBM spent several million dollars to get their staff ready for W2K. And they had the advantage of being familiar with NT 4. There is no carryover like that from a Windows OS to something like Linux. You have to know it well enough to walk someone else through troubleshooting it.
It is not uncommon to have people who have decided to load another OS onto their system to call tech support and lie about what OS is installed. It is usually glaringly obvious when this happens. This creates difficult situations, as you must deny someone support who just spent thousands of dollars on a computer. If you do go ahead and help them you will have created a precedent that could be legally binding to help out other people with that OS.
It's not about making money for MS, they are going to get theirs regardless. It's about support costs. The average computer maker will lose money if a customer has to call tech support 3 times in the life of the computer. This is why Compaq decided to start charging for tech support years ago. Like it or not, Linux is not ready for the mainstream of America (something I think is liked by most of the open source community to be perfectly honest).
As for charging more for a computer with a free OS, remember it's the support costs that your paying for. After all you can install Linux or whatnot on your own and not get the support costs. Most IT depts budget more over the lifetime of a desktop computer to support it than they do it for purchasing it. This is where the real expenses and profits are to be made. If I understand correctly Dell farms their Linux support out to Red Hat. That means those support calls are more than they would for an internal solution.
Hope this answers your question
You can read all abotu it in Jackson's findings of (Score:2)
M$ charges licensees per CPu shipped, whether they ship with Windows or not. Their clain is that this is to prevent piracy. Most of the industry however feels this is to make it unworkable for their licensees to ship alternate OSs as a reasonable option.
If/when the cout case is final and over, assumign M$ doesn't pull a suprise victory out of the hat, they will ahve to stop this. Til the, yo uand I over-pay because our industry is dominated by a monopoly. (Maybe you should see if there's a class action suit you can join, although M$ has pretty sucessfully defended themselves from consumer suits so far by using a precedent that says basicly that, if there is a middle man, you can only sue the middleman.)
Re:It's Called Tech Support (Score:1)
but... WHY? (Score:1)
but if you really must have a Dell, don't gripe about paying for Windows, they've already overcharged you for the hardware.
No, not really (Score:1)
No, you don't (directly). Dell does. Dell passes it on to you. Microsoft gives Dell a sweet deal on a per CPU sold basis. That could be changed, but hasn't been changed. Dell pays per CPU sold
I thought this was changing due to the case against Microsoft and other recent events.
No, Microsoft has not yet been force to make concessions. All of the ramifications of the trial have been put on hold until the appeals are done.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Micro$oft... (Score:1)
What is happening here is that since the computer comes "ordered" with the MS products automatically (because of how much OS and browser share they have) that there is no reason for most computer wholesalers to even think about ordering it any other way.
It doesn't cost the wholesaler anything extra to get the computer without Windows, because of the "great" incentives that MS offers, but it doesn't cost any less either. Basically, because of the incentives, the licenses are fairly cheap, if not "free" (other then the hassle of actually using Windows).
Your best bet is to find a good download of your favorite flavour of Unix and just get the computer sans Windows. You're paying (or rather not paying) for the licenses anyway, but you might as well start without Windows anyways. It will make it that much easier on you.
Kierthos
Why not sue in your local Small Claims Court? (Score:1)
Has anyone tried this? Are there any lawyers out there?
Sorry (Score:1)
What I'd like to see is a laptop manufacturer that doesn't install Windows on ANY of its systems.
You mean tuxtops? (Score:1)
Re:licensing contract (Score:2)
- Microsoft charges computer manufatures based on the number of units sold for a given time frame. The OEM is charged just as much for a computer with Windows as without.
Seems to go against the very principles that America is founded on. Taxation without representation, anyone?- This does not cover Office though. You should be able to order your computer without Office for a reduced savings. Check out their different models for different pricing structures.
Yup. I've bought some Dell machines lately. Office is optional, don't but it and you do save your money.Maybe I'm nit-picking, but you seem to contradict yourself a little here:
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Having Windows on the computer allows the tech staff to test something under known standards.
vs.-
If I understand correctly Dell farms their Linux support out to Red Hat.
If the guys at Red Hat are taking the Linux support calls, then how does supporting Linux make life any easier for folk on the Dell support desk?The Dell tech support system requires you enter a service tag, a unique serial number for every machine that they ship. They should be able to filter people who bought Linux boxen in seconds (if they did call the wrong number), and pass them on to Red Hat.
cheers,
G
Re:No, not really (Score:2)
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Dell pays per CPU sold
Somehow, I can't even read this without screaming.-
No, Microsoft has not yet been force to make concessions. All of the ramifications of the trial have been put on hold until the appeals are done.
Is everything on hold? I haven't been paying close attention since the verdict, but I thought that only the split was held up. I just thought that the other measures didn't come into force until 90 days after they were announced.G
Re:licensing contract (Score:1)
As for contradicting myself, please keep in mind most companies aren't going to have a Red Hat waiting in the wings to take those Linux calls. Any tech worth his salt is going to test hardware under certain known conditions before he sends out a replacement. It's just a matter of having the support staff/expertise to know what those /known/ conditions are. I would imagine the Red Hat people do have their own standard test conditions that they use. I hope that clarifies things.
Re:Welcome to the wonderful world of Micro$oft... (Score:2)
- A full MS licence almost worth the paper it isn't printed on (not only does it restrict their liability to the cost of the software, which the vendor will later claim was "free", but recent Win98 packs I have seen don't even *have* the licence terms on them; it is the click licence or nothing)
- a "restricted" version of the licence that binds that copy of Win98 to that one OEM installed machine; you can't use the licence to upgrade an existing machine someplace else on your network
- no functional install media - just a "disk image" which will totally destroy your installed software and settings, restoring the machine to a factory-fresh configuration.
So welcome to the brave old world of M$oft marketing - you not only pay for software you don't want or need, but you pay for software you can't legally use, and probably have to hang onto anyhow for warranty reasons....OTOH, I bought my machine with MS DOS 6.22, which was no cheaper, but came with real install disks and can be used to bootstrap Linux quite well.
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Simple: Don't Buy From DELL (Score:2)
Re:Dell configuration options... (Score:1)
Paragraphs? We don't need no stinkin' paragraphs...
Re:Sorry (Score:1)
They make Ultrasparc and PA-RISC based notebooks. They used to make alpha-based ones which are still available refurbished, and for a short period of time, intel/windows notebooks. AFAIK, the windows products are non-existant now.
Re:ugghhh.. You sound like a Stream employee (Score:1)
Why do I think the poster is from Stream or a similar dirtbag outsourcer? Look at his stupid excuse:
Hate to dissapoint you, but I have not worked at this "stream" place of yours. You sound like a disgruntled employee that somehow connected an answer to industry sales and support policies to somehow relate to me. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, but your attack was unneccasary and offtopic. Or were you denied support after calling in when you had an OS that was unsupported?
I have known several people over the years that work at outsourcing places, I even once worked at Wang. I understand the process they use on things quite well. I do not see how any of this relates to what I was talking about.
As for this "half baked double talk", it sounds like you don't have a lot of industry experience. So I'll fill you in on the status qou. If you start supporting a certain configuration that hasn't been advertised, people will find out about it. Once people start to find out about it, they can demand it. Computer companies have lost in court over this before. You cannot differentiate between different customers who /bought/ the same service contracts. You must provide them with the same level of service. This is one of the primary reasons that call support centers must keep permanent records of their calls.
Dell laptops running linux (Score:1)
-LW
Re:Dell configuration options... (Score:1)
The drive came with Creative's Dxr3 decoder card, which is actually the Hollywood Plus card. Laptops are probably a different situation, though, if they don't have a hardware decoder or don't have NT drivers for it.