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Will Linux Ever be Ported to the Palm? 20

Posted by Cliff from the still-waiting... dept.
Derek Cunningham asks: "I've had a Palm Vx for a couple months now. All of the nerds I know continually ask me 'are you running Linux on that yet?' and all I can say is 'no'. I've continually read over the uCLinux page, as well as the OSK page... but cannot find details on exactly how to get Linux on my Palm. It seems that uCLinux has a downloadable version, but no docs, and OSK just doesn't have a whole lot of information other than some graphics and screenshots, and even those are almost a year old (same age as the slashdot story). The only thing they seem to document is getting their images to work with XCoPilot."
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Will Linux Ever be Ported to the Palm? More

Will Linux Ever be Ported to the Palm?

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  • you should really start here... http://www.trgnet.com/products.htm [trgnet.com]

  • Argh, not again... (Score:4)

    by Ravagin ( 100668 ) on Wednesday October 04, 2000 @02:47PM (#731201)
    I think they quesiton might be better as "Should Linux ever be ported to the Palm?"

    Ok, that's a bit harsh. Certainly it would be a neat hack, and I like a neat hack as much as the next being. But is linux right for the palm?
    Say you install linux on your palm, and want to use, for example, bash. Unless you're amazingly good at graffiti, it will be a lot slower than on your desktop. You could, conceivably, use a keyboard (all hail the PPK!), first writing a driver for it, but you can't do that on a regular basis (as in jotting down a number on the subway). Yah, you could write a GUI for it, or adapt X, or soemthing, but....why? Does linux have to run on everything and its duck?
    I'm not a linux expert, but it seems to me that PalmOS is on the right track with they're handheld OS: simple, streamlined, totally GUI oriented.
    Just some things to think about. And I still WinCE when I think about Microsoft's attempt to squeeze their desktop OS onto a handheld....
    -J
  • Honestly, you need to look at a handheld device as being in a completely different kind of computing paradigm than regular machines. Think about what kinds of tasks you might want to perform on a device the size of your hand. Games, some network communication, maybe some light web browsing, and of course, personal organizer tasks all work. Maybe even book reading. But tasks which are very CPU intensive won't work, because you'll drain your batteries quickly. Most games will have the same problem. I think that you'll see wireless networking functions, telephony and organization functions all integrated into the same device in the near future. So the OS that runs the device has to be targeted for those functions. I don't think that Linux does that very well. That isn't what it was designed for.
  • Sorry, forgot to login... ;)
    -J
  • <asbestos>
    first let me say that i think today's linux is a terrible operating system for handheld computers.
    </asbestos>

    like another poster said, what the hell would you do with it? i type pretty darn fast, and i love the power that communicating with the computer verbally gives me. but the you just can't do that kind of thing within the palmtop form factor. at least not until we see some real software for that arena.

    the palm os (as great as the interface is) is a tragedy from an operating system design point of view. no protected memory, no real multitasking, nothing you would ever tolerate on a desktop system.

    rumor has it that the nextgen palms will run on be 200 to 400mHz ARM chips. if i were on the palm (handspring) board of directors, i'd be pushing to develop the next palm interface on linux.

    imaging handspring-developed hardware, powered by arm, held together with linux, supporting a palm interface. stunning.


    --
  • If you, Ravagin, are going to ask the question, "Should Linux ever be ported to the Palm?" Then you should also ask

    Why Should I put a bigger engine in my car when the speed limit isn't more than 70mph?

    Why do I need an SUV, when a station wagon would suffice?

    Why would you put an expensive sound system in your car, when it would clearly sound better in a home theater?

    The first inventor of an Assembler got into trouble for waisting computer processing time by converting assembly language into machine code instead of having a programmer do it. His boss probably asked the question "Why should the computer generate it's own machine code?"

    Things change. Portable devices will become both powerful and mainstream. Voice recognition will do away with the need slowly scribble on your palm.

    Personally, I hope that we get a version of Linux working on the Palm soon, before WindowsCE becomes the only mainstream interface. In the mean time, getting something such as Linux up and running on different devices is fun. I don't get out much, but soldering and rewiring my Iopener was fun. I'm looking forward to declawing my :cue:cat:, even though I will never use it for anything practical.

  • Of course, but try and FIND a full sized station wagon! They aren't made anymore (and no, a Sable/Taurus isn't full sized). A full sized wagon USED to fit a sheet of 4x8 plywood across the back with the seats down.

    This is one of those "Unintended consequences" deals. Back when the US government implemented the CAFE laws (Corporate average fuel economy) they exempted trucks. What we call SUVs today were classed as "Light trucks".

    So, in order to meet in increasingly strict CAFE laws, the car companies had to downsize their cars. The first thing that (Mostly) went away was the big huge car. (Note, they HAVE come back - cars like the big MB and the big Lexus etc are as big as anything) The next thing that went away was the full sized wagon. There were a few hold outs till about 1 year ago (The Ford Crown Victoria. Note: The Crown Victoria/Lincoln Town car are now ONLY listed in Ford's "Fleet" program - AKA You are only supposed to be able to buy them if you are a fleet operator).

    So the full sized wagon/car went away. So, what does it get replaced with? Well, at first, they really got replaced with Mini vans! (You do remember the Mini van craze, right?) The thing is, the early min vans really had some reliability problems. The people realized, hey, I can get this light truck that works, if I give up some creature comforts (BTW Mini vans of the mid 80s weren't all that luxurious). The move was inevitable. If people want something, they WILL figure out how to get what they want.

    Now me? I drive a compact car (a Saturn), because it didn't pay for me to drive in a larger car. However, my next car will be larger (a Saturn doesn't work when you have to transport 4 people, a playpen etc). If I get a SECOND car, it'll be a truck. Why a truck? I work with a lot of heavy tools and equipment. It won't be a SUV, but a truck. If they make me register it as a commercial vehicle, so be it. If the stop pickups, I'll get a box van. They stop that, I'll buy a full sized truck! No, it won't be used every day, as I live where mass transport works.

  • Ermmm, why? I mean it appears to me that they make flash memory upgrades for Palms. Useful sure, but has nothing to do with running Linux on the Palm does it?
    "Give the anarchist a cigarette"

  • Why do I need an SUV, when a station wagon would suffice?

    I'm beginning to view SUVs as a combination status-mobile and station wagon for the macho with more money than common sense. CBS Marketwatch had a story about how SUV buyers are paying at least $250 per month more compared to a normal car after the higher price, extra fuel costs, and higher insurance were taken into account. In their opinion, it would be better to invest this for retirement. Given that most people use them just like a station wagon, IMHO, owning a SUV is a waste of resources.

  • Aren't the current Palms based on 16Bit Motorola 68K CPU's? That would make quite an obstacle for a 32 bit operating system.
  • Personally, I hope that we get a version of Linux working on the Palm soon, before WindowsCE becomes the only mainstream interface.

    Umm, but isn't Palm with its >70% market share the dominant interface for this type of device??

    Oh, me bad ... you mean that you want to access your calendar, contacts, todo list, notepad functions from a command line interface (painful using grafitti, jot or even t9) ... or do you want an overriding X style interface instead?

    Grow up - a device should be fit for purpose, not fit for Linux.
  • Your right about the "Urge" - I haul large stuff often enough that IF I get a second vehicle, it'll be a truck. A Camry sized car and a full sized pickup fits the bill, FOR ME. Right now I mooch truck time from friends, or rent a truck, but when I finish my train, I will NEED that truck (As I said, it's a weekend truck for me). When I say "Train", I'm not talking some little O scale "thing" - The engine alone is 5 feet long, and weighs in at well over 400 lbs. The tender is 3 feet (and about 100 lbs), and then there is the coal and tools. I'll be moving this 2-3x/month. If I build riding cars, I'll have to add a trailer!
  • It's in Palm's business interest to keep PalmOS as their platform... they make significant amounts of money licensing PalmOS. In order for it to make sense for Palm to go to Linux, they'd have to be convinced that there would at least be a) significant savings in going to Linux, and b) they'd sell so much additional hardware, it'd make up for the loss in revenue from OS licensing.

    I don't see the market expanding significantly because of a switch to Linux. Business people don't give a crap what OS it is, as long as it works, and syncs data to their Windows boxes. Geeks are *not* as significant a market for Palm as you seem to imagine.

    Besides, they'd lose differentiation in that market. They'd be competing against significantly higher-power hardware in the handheld Linux market. It's far better for them to have the OS as their advantage, and innovate hardware just enough to have new products which cause current owners to upgrade every few years.

    PalmOS does not pretend to be more than it is. It is not a computing platform, it is a "keep my notes someplace handy" platform.

    -Nev
  • i'm not saying linux is right for the palm because i'm a linux zealot (like you seem to believe) but because it has proven itself on confined hardware, and because if find the current underlying os on palms to be lacking.

    also, i never said that palm would have to release their interface as a free software. the underlying os (and their changes) would remain free, with a for-profit interface. never work you say? heard of OSX?

    if your just going to troll, go read infoworld or something.

    --
  • >Why should the computer generate it's own machine code?

    You say you're keeping /. free of grammatical errors, then you go and commit one yourself. It's is a contraction of it is, whereas the word you are searching for is its, which is the possessive form of it.

    Also, when you use something up needlessly, you waste it, not waist it. Just a reality check here.

  • the underlying os (and their changes) would remain free, with a for-profit interface. never work you say? heard of OSX? Yeah. Heard of the BSD license? if your just going to troll, go read infoworld or something. I'm trolling because I said that it wasn't in Palm's interest to switch to Linux? If you want handheld Linux, don't buy a Palm. It's not a biggie, and I'm not saying that Linux doesn't belong in the palm of your hand. -Nev
  • .. but linux (with all its great progress) is not quite there yet. Although there have been some great efforts to port linux to some of the handhelds out there, like the Ipaq, there aren't that many reasons why one should go apenuts to get linux on the palm. Forgive me, I'm more interested in actual functionality as opposed to raw 'coolness'. =)
    Maybe in a year or two, we'll have one (or more) handheld-centric distribution that will rock our socks and will be worth every penny, but until then, I'll sit back and relax...
    One of the cool things though... There is a linux port to the Psion handhelds, which seems really good... I may drop it on my 5mx someday, when it outlives its usefulness... heh
  • But they are not considered "Full Sized"

  • Re:Argh, not again... (Score:3)

    by alhaz ( 11039 ) on Thursday October 05, 2000 @08:28AM (#731218) Homepage
    Linux *HAS* been ported to the palm. A LONG time ago in net terms.

    See http://slashdot.org/articles/99/11/11/0850205.shtm l [slashdot.org]

  • I haven't been in the market for them, but I believe that GM does still make full sized station wagon (an Oldsmobile). I would also consider many other vehicles in GM's line-up to be full-sized also. I know a couple people that recently bought a Crown Vic, and they certainly through fleet purchases.

    But why is hauling a 4x8 sheet of plywood so important? Is this something that you do every week? If so, then yes, a truck may be in order. Better yet, go down to U-Haul have them put a trailer hitch on your car. Then you can rent or buy a small trailer that would carry the occasional 4x8 sheets of plywood. IMHO, way too many people buy vehicles in order to satisfy some psychological urge (to look cool, status, etc) and/or to be able to do a particular task that they might do once or twice a year instead of what they are going to use it for every day. A friend of mine bought an Explorer because he is an HVAC engineer and has lots of equipment that he needs to carry to contruction sites that may or may not be accessible by a regular car. For him it's a necessity. For the suburban soccer mom, it's a huge waste.

    The CAFE exemption is another pet peeve. When they came up with the CAFE regs, the only people who bought light trucks were those who needed them (farmers, people hauling heavy tools & equipment, etc). Then trucks became fashionable and urbanites started buying them for the above stated reasons (and drove up the prices for the people who actually need them). The car makers got clued into this and started pitching vehicles that could technically be considered light trucks. They make far more profit from these vehicles and can skirt the regs at the same time. For crying out loud, the PT Cruiser (the same car that Andover is giving away) is classified as a light truck. Remove the retro panel-van body, and it's the same as a Neon! IMHO, CAFE should be expanded to include these 'light duty trucks'. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be made, because some people certainly need them.

    I have a Hyundai Excel and a Mistubishi Precis (same car different year & badges). Both are hatchbacks and I can carry a hell of a lot with them. They can certainly carry four (five if squeezed) people and a playpen + other stuff. The list of stuff I've hauled in them include: wood for bookshelves (2x8 plywood, 2x4s, etc), twin mattresses & corresponding box springs, a 12 cu ft freezer, dressers, disassembled swing set (w/ slide, monkey bars, & swinging bench for two -- all in one trip w/ hatch closed) and lots of other stuff that I've forgotten about. The Excel even has a U-haul trailer hitch that was used to pull a packed 5x8 enclosed U-haul trailer over the Rocky Mountains (via I-80 & through the Eisenhower Tunnel) and across the plains in 90+ heat, without a complaint (well not from the car..lots of complaints from some of the passengers). It's still used to haul big pieces of furniture, refrigerators, etc. with an inexpensive U-haul trailer. So you can kinda see why I don't believe most people when they say they need a SUV or minivan. Unless, they have four+ kids and/or haul lots of equipment, they don't need it, they want it to satisfy some urge. My wife has tried to get me buy a small minivan or SUV over the years. The ones we've looked at usually flunk the 'does it carry as much as the Hyundai' test. If not, they flunk the 'cost to operate' tests.

    I'm not an enviromentalist, just a cheap bastard who doesn't like to waste resources. It's no wonder I run Linux! =)

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