Technical Comparison Of Windows CE vs. PalmOS? 35
caprio asks: "I work for a software company in Illinois. We want to port our current application, which is a EMS Data Collection tool, to the PDA scene. It is a Visual Basic program (COM, ADO, the works..) It would involve collecting data at the scene of the accident, then uploading it to the server back at the station. A complete re-write is not out of the question. So my question is this, can anyone give me a good, technical comparison between Windows CE and the PalmOS? We are leaning towards Windows CE becasue the machines are beefer. But I also hear that cable connection is better on the Palm. Anyone with some tips or suggestions?"
It's the USER INTERFACE (Score:1)
But some of us do know a little about user interface. If you want a desktop user interface (nevermind what you think of the interface quality itself) then use a desktop computer.
A desktop interface is just wrong for a handheld. Even with added on retrofitted goup to try to adapt it for that purpose.
Many handheld applications, including the one this article is about, need to be used in the field. Not sitting in front of a laptop. (Even if it is a handheld laptop.)
You want instant access to applications. Quick responsiveness. You can't say to customers, cab-drivers, people in elevators, the waiter at the resturant, "oh, just wait a minute while my application starts up, or my system boots up."
Palm OS was designed to be used on the go. The way applications switch under the OS is designed to be instant -- no lengthy initialization. Sort of like how you use a digital watch, or other common technology items.
Pocket PC's may seem more sexy when you look at their specs, but the Palm was designed by considering how and where it would be used. Not just a me-too adaptation of a desktop OS.
Re:out of curiousity (Score:1)
Re:Pros and Cons (Score:2)
Ahhh, I'm trying to subtly plant the seed for such a need in the mind of managers here. My project manager brings in her laptop and plugs it in every morning, so I'm trying to convince her how much more convenient it would be to have a wireless NIC, allowing her to roam through the building. Besides, it would allow ME to roam through the building.
> I still like the Palm line for some things, but the color attempt needs to be redone. I wasn't impressed with the IIIc at all.
The IIIc is useless as far as I'm concerned. The pixels are too big and give the display a grainy appearance. I wish they would concentrate on getting beyond 160x160 and square aspect ratio instead, and getting rid of the dedicated Graffiti input area. All of the display opening in the front face should be display, and they should push the display more out towards the edges of the device. In other words, give me a bigger screen with more resolution!
One other thing I would LOVE in the Palm is a BACK button, that lets you switch to the last used app. Too often I need to pop up an app while in another one to look up something, and then I have to go to the App screen again, scroll around to find the previous app, and switch to it. With the BACK button I could simply switch to another app, do the lookup, then hit the BACK button and be back where I was. Oh, and please convert the calculator into a popup dialog, like the Find dialog, so it doesn't move away from the currently used app.
Why not both (Score:1)
Would you be supplying the hardware? (Score:2)
If I were you I'd be making the decision based on what was the cheapest, most popular device you could get it working on, not based on the best tech specs.
Re:WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:1)
> a handheld device if what you really want is
> a desktop?
>Portability. Remember what they're trying to do
>here -- gather information at the scene of an >accident.
>Laptops might be a workable option, but an >embedded system would be preferable (no disk >access time). When you work for EMS, seconds >count.
Yes, Portability is the main reason for the handheld discussion. Also, many hospitals are asking for a handheld version before they commit to purchase.
Development tools (Score:2)
Take a look at the PocketPC developer page [microsoft.com]
Re:WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:1)
Re:Palm is worth a look (Score:1)
WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:4)
Both OS have merits, but for a developper Windows CE is clearly better, because it uses a subset of the Win32 API and have most services you expect to find in an regular OS. Also, Pocket PC PDAs have larger screens (240x320 pixels and 12 or 16 bits per pixel) while Palm devices have a tiny one (160x160 in gray scale or 256 color). PocketPC have MUCH beefier CPUs, sound, easy connectivity through Ethernet or Modem cards, mass-storage availability (Flash cards or Microdrive, etc...).
Another BIG advantage of Windows CE : Microsoft is giving away the full SDK AND Visual C++ AND Visual Basic for Windows CE (not just the add-on, the full complete apps with cross-compiler and all !). If your app already exists as a Visual Basic program, then it will mike porting easier than rewriting from scratch for PalmOS, un C and with a totally different API.
Overall Palm devices are nice calender/todo/agenda/etc. but they just don't cut it if you want desktop functionnalities.
Re:WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:2)
The original question stated that they have an existing Visual Basic program and they aren't looking for an organizer, but rather a handheld platform for a specialized data collection tool.
The post you responded to listed lots of facts about the WinCE platform that you proceeded to bob and weave around while tossing in the occasional cheap shot.
Are you really incapable of even considering the possibility that the Palm may not be the ultimate handheld platform for every possible application anywhere?
The fact that they already have an existing Visual Basic application is certainly going to give them a hell of a head start in getting it running on WinCE rather than assembling a PalmOS development environment, learning a brand new and unfamiliar API and rewriting the application in a different language.
Plus, for a data collection application I would give serious consideration to the WinCE machines with keyboards. I wouldn't trade my Palm Pro for one, but then I'm not writing up accident reports on my Palm Pro.
Pros and Cons (Score:3)
+larger screens, better resolution, more fields per screen
+relative code portability from the desktop
-color screens almost unreadable in daylight, great at night
-code portability might depend on OS features used
-short battery life, which can be a problem depending on usage model
-expensive devices, a factor in a harsh environment
Palm:
+very readable screen in daylight, usable at night
+extremely long battery life, enabling all sorts of usage models
+cheap devices, almost disposable
-OS harder to program and more limitations than WinCE (except if you choose VC++ on WinCE, then it's a bitch regardless
-smaller screen, fewer fields per screen
-Graffiti might make some people balk
All in all, I'm leaning towards Palm, because of the very readable screen, the long battery life, and the cheapness of the devices. However, you should evaluate WinCE and see how much of your legacy code would REALLY be portable; if a substantial amount needs a rewrite (e.g. because of GUI issues), write from scratch and go with Palm. If you can mostly port verbatim, go with WinCE.
On Palm you can use Satellite Forms to create very VB-ish apps, complete with event handler scripts etc. Check it out, for data acqusition it makes app development almost trivial, and all your data automatically ends up in database tables on the desktop. You could also use the Symbol devices with the barcode reader if you have that kind of need.
Re:WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:5)
Which is wonderfull if you want a comfortable desktop/development platform, but next to useless in a handheld/embedded setting.
Which is really nice if you want to deploy it on a slimmed down compuuting platform designed to fit in someones shirt pocket and run for weeks on a couple of AA batteries, but sucks some (but not nearly all or even most) other computing tasks.
Ah, this must be some new usage of the word better to which I have been hitherto unaware!
None of which are features of the OS, and, hence, are irrelevant to the question that was asked.
Or you could use the GCC cross-compiler tools for PalmOS, which are also free and run on some of the most successfull and program friendly computing environments ever written.
Of course, you will have to rewrite the program anyway, since the assumptions you made about the human interface will likely be completely different in a handheld device that it was for the desktop systems you orriginally wrote the program for.
Which begs the question: why are you targeting a handheld device if what you really want is a desktop?
Re:Pros and Cons (Score:1)
WinCe:
+user interface much like Win9x, easy user training
-program switching slow
-user interface much like Win9x, not really suited for small devices.
Palm:
+small, fast OS, fast program switching
+interface deisgned from the groud up for handheld devices
-learning the interface takes some training
out of curiousity (Score:2)
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
I don't know... (Score:2)
I think the important GUI paradigm is the WIMP (or WIP I guess), or the familiar window/dialog box, buttons, edit boxes, check boxes, combo boxes, menus. People are used to this paradigm by now, no matter what particular appearance these items might take. I maintain that these GUI widgets look only trivially different on Palm OS than in WinCE or Win9x. By far most people still recognize the (monochrome, with rounded corners) buttons as buttons, the edit boxes as edit boxes, the check boxes as check boxes. One possible exception is the drop down menu, which is not normally visible on Palm OS, so that's a small item to learn. But most people seeing a Palm form with some GUI widgets for the first time will intuitively know how to navigate it.
It does not take a verbatim copy of the Win9x desktop to instill familiarity, because even on WinCE the Start button menu doesn't really contain all the stuff from Win9x, and the differences increase rapidly from there.
My point is that the argument saying that WinCE is much more familiar to users than the Palm OS is only superficially true but really doesn't hold much water. I've seen too many non-Palm users pick up my Visor or Pilot and pretty quickly find their way around it.
WinCE to be discontinued? (Score:3)
Re:WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:1)
> Which begs the question: why are you targeting
> a handheld device if what you really want is
> a desktop?
Portability. Remember what they're trying to do here -- gather information at the scene of an accident.
Laptops might be a workable option, but an embedded system would be preferable (no disk access time). When you work for EMS, seconds count.
--LordEq
Re:Development tools (Score:1)
Re:More points (Score:1)
Re:Pros and Cons (Score:1)
Re:WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:1)
Plus, for a data collection application I would give serious consideration to the WinCE machines with keyboards. I wouldn't trade my Palm Pro for one, but then I'm not writing up accident reports on my Palm Pro.
Excellent point. In this specific application, precision and speed of entry could be very important. If the people in the field know how to type on a computer keyboard, you might get much better results with a PocketPC.
Of course all the other advantages of the Palm should be weighed as well. Think about which one is going to best meet your needs in this specific situation.
Re:Development tools (Score:1)
Your app could probably be written to address DCOM versions of your application objects via a lighter-weight protocol such as XML-RPC (aka SOAP), so that you wouldn't need client-side COM. That could make your app a lot more flexible, so that it could run on other platforms that don't use COM, such as WAP-enabled phones...
I know, as a programmer, that using reusable services and app development frameworks is awfully tempting. You have to keep the proper perspective about whether those frameworks and services are really appropriate on the platform and for the purpose that you are trying to target.
Re:why reinvent the wheel? (Score:1)
Well, basically people are simple. They want a handheld version because it is sleeker and cooler than a laptop. Plus, More things can break on a laptop. then you get people installing MP3 players and new themes for Win9X. that makes the computer unstable and program not very good.
Re:Pros and Cons (Score:1)
Just to correct a few peoples previous statements,
WinCE:
-color screens almost unreadable in daylight, great at night
-short battery life, which can be a problem depending on usage model
Both of these are fixed with the iPaq Pocket PC, its lighting mechanism is perfect in ALL light, and even with the device and a 1GB microdrive running on a PCMCIA sleeve I get 10 hours of full use battery life. With normal use(no sleve & backlight on) I get almost 11 hours. Thats nothing to bawk at. Let alone it sounds like these guy will be investigating acidents, and I'm assuming they drive a car to the acident, and thus have a easy power source to charge from if needed.
Not that it is required but the iPaq also sports a nice recording mechanism, that could be for..i don't know...recording statements?
Oh and there is absolutly no chance in hell that Windows ME will have a spin off mini-ME, the lawsuits from Mike Myers Films and In Line Productions(who hold the rights to Austin Powers) would be the least of MS' worries.
_Z
Re:WinCE vs PalmOS (Score:2)
PalmOS has a TCP/IP stack, and PPP. I use it everyday.
wish
Vote for freedom! [harrybrowne2000.org]
---
Consider the Handspring Visor (Score:1)
Being a Palm bigot, of course I'm going to recommend Palm devices...
Despite that, take a look at the Handspring Visor. You could develop your app, burn it into a Springboard and have a dandy way to distribute it. Someone drops the Visor and it breaks? Swing by your local store, pick up another, and swap the Springboard into it.
If you build a Springboard with some extra flash, you can save the field data into flash when it's entered. It'll use up the flash's lifetime faster, but you won't lose data even if the batteries wear out. (of course, Palm devices do have a longer battery life...)
Visors are also dirt cheap (in PDA $ terms...
One other thought I had - and it applies to whatever platform you go with. How do you protect against someone stealing the device for their own use? (no insult to EMTs intended!)
- Al Weiner -
www.ajw.com
More points (Score:3)
- You can make your Palm application quite tamperproof by burning the app [trgpro.com] into flash ROM and disabling the software installation conduits.
- PalmOS is essentially a clone of MacOS anno 1990. People who programmed the Apple Mac back in the early nineties will understand the PalmOS very quickly.
- Sybase [sybase.com] has a product named UltraLite (part of SQL Anywhere Studio), which is a very small embedded SQL server for PDAs. You can replicate to/from any ODBC-compliant master data source over several different protocols. UltraLite also supports WinCE and several other platforms. I've used UL on Palm for some months now and it does have some bugs, but it will probably be sufficiently robust by next summer.
--BudRe:Pros and Cons (Score:2)
WinCE:
-color screens almost unreadable in daylight, great at night
Ever seen the iPaq Pocket PC outside? I'd have to say it's readibility actually beats my old Palm V. Plus there are monocrome CE devices, like the upcomming iPaq 3150.
-short battery life, which can be a problem depending on usage model
My iPaq is now a device that I charge nightly along with other things I own. But in the time I have had it, I have never gotten the battery below 60%, and thats with one day playing music in the car with the screen left on for 2 hours, plus reading with the backlight and such. I could easially go 3-4 days of moderate use without needing a charge. But since the cradle charges and I sync daily for AvantGo, it's not a problem. Also, the iPaq's battery can be almost doubled with the PCMCIA expansion, as it adds a 2ed equal capicity battery to run the PCMCIA device or to charge the iPaq's battery.
-expensive devices, a factor in a harsh environment
I have found many CE based devices for not that much. With the new generation of flashy WinCE 3 devices, many of the 2.11 devices are cheaper then midrange Palms.
Overall, I moved from Palm to PocketPC because I wanted exactly that, a Pocket PC. The PIM stuff on WinCE for the most part blows chunks compaired to the Palm. But with a handheld that can play MPEG-4 movies, and access to PCMCIA wireless (modem or LAN) while sharing the cost with my laptop, I haven't looked back yet.
Re:out of curiousity (Score:1)
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/ce/to
all you have to do is pay for the 7.5$ shipping charges (which is not excessive considered you get the full working Embedded Visual C++ et Visual Basic plus the SDKs).
Re:Palm is worth a look (Score:1)
Re:More points (Score:2)
We-ell, I fail to see how this would stop you from placing the application (binary) in ROM... You aren't going to modify your code on the fly, are you? The data, which you obviously need read-write access to, would still reside in RAM.
PalmOS also uses C to program it, if I am not mistaken (and I might be) So the turn around time for this would be huge.
C and C++ are the two big languages, and there's a choice of two compilers: Metrowerks [metrowerks.com] CodeWarrior and GCC. If you just must use BASIC (*shudder*), there are several variants available. Browse the Development category on www.palmgear.com [palmgear.com] or see Wademan's slightly outdated Palm Programming FAQ [wademan.com].
--Bud
Re:Pros and Cons (Score:2)
No, I haven't seen it. But for every such glowing report I hear many more that complain about the washed-out screen under normal daylight conditions (not in the shade, or in a sunlit room, but under the clear sky).
> My iPaq is now a device that I charge nightly along with other things I own.
Well, my personal habits don't go for that. That's why I also don't carry other rechargable devices, such as a cell phone. I end up simply not doing it, and it's dead when I do need it. Besides, I simply don't hotsync often enough for the recharging to be transparent, maybe once a week or so. My wife hotsyncs her Visor maybe once a month. And I definitely don't leave it for long in the cradle. Hotsync and back in the pocket.
> With the new generation of flashy WinCE 3 devices, many of the 2.11 devices are cheaper then midrange Palms.
Yeah, but we're comparing latest generation Palms here, so I don't need an old and deficient WinCE 2.1. The latest V3 might be getting more usable, but the older versions were just crap.
> Overall, I moved from Palm to PocketPC because I wanted exactly that, a Pocket PC.
Fair enough. That's what I actually want as well, but for me the best compromise currently are the Palms. I'm simply too averted by short battery life, I just don't want something that I constantly have to baby. It's bad enough that I have to change the batteries every 2-3 weeks when I'm particularly heavy into Galaxian and Tetris, but worrying about power twice a week--forget it.
> But with a handheld that can play MPEG-4 movies
I'm sorry, but that's a joke. Besides the we-can-do-it factor, I see absolutely no purpose in that, and please spare me the I-stream-video-over-wireless thing. I know more people that have ditched their expensive Casio E-xxx because the video and MP3 novelty wore off than I know people that ditched Palms because they NEEDED video.
> access to PCMCIA wireless (modem or LAN)
Here I fully agree, I think wireless connectivity is the killer app that will push PDAs out of their niche. I'm pining for the day when I can carry my PDA around the entire company with constant connectivity, live email updates, web browsing during boring meetings, etc. All without killing the batteries in 2 hours or less.
Color screens I personally find quite unnecessary. I know many disagree, but for useful information display a good contrast monochrome screen like my M100 is perfectly acceptable. Only when color requires no compromises in readability and especially power usage will I change my opinion. I think a large screen size with good resolution is more important. I wish manufacturers would work harder on converting more of the frontal area of the PDAs into screen.
Actually, I do rather like the new iPaq. I think it's pretty close to an ideal PDA in terms of functionality and power. All it needs now is 1-2 weeks of good use per charge, and more expandability. And a lower price. Carrying something that cost over $500 carelessly in the pant pocket is not my idea of prudence. My cheap M100 on the other hand I don't worry too much about.
Re:Pros and Cons (Score:2)
No, I haven't seen it. But for every such glowing report I hear many more that complain about the washed-out screen under normal daylight conditions
(not in the shade, or in a sunlit room, but under the clear sky).
I had no problem today using it in direct sunlight, except for the occasional blinding from reflecting the light into my eyes. Compairing my iPaq to the 15 inch TFT on my laptop, the iPaq does a much better job at being seen in sun then the laptop. I made sure the iPaq could be used outside, and was happy to confirm it was just as useful as my Palm V.
> My iPaq is now a device that I charge nightly along with other things I own.
Well, my personal habits don't go for that. That's why I also don't carry other rechargable devices, such as a cell phone. I end up simply not doing it, and it's dead when I do need it. Besides, I simply don't hotsync often enough for the recharging to be transparent, maybe once a week or so. My wife hotsyncs her Visor maybe once a month. And I definitely don't leave it for long in the cradle. Hotsync and back in the pocket.
What helps in my case is that the cradle sits right on my bedstand, and I use the iPaq as a second alarm (Since one seems to never get me out of bed on time).
> With the new generation of flashy WinCE 3 devices, many of the 2.11 devices are cheaper then midrange Palms.
Yeah, but we're comparing latest generation Palms here, so I don't need an old and deficient WinCE 2.1. The latest V3 might be getting more usable,
but the older versions were just crap.
More useful to a point, but still needs work. I hope to avoid the situation soon by getting Linux running, but I don't plan on taking a step back to do so. The main reason I brought up the older devices is due to the possibility of cost being an issue for the origional question. Never did I mean that CE 2.11 was friendly to a user.
> Overall, I moved from Palm to PocketPC because I wanted exactly that, a Pocket PC.
Fair enough. That's what I actually want as well, but for me the best compromise currently are the Palms. I'm simply too averted by short battery life, I just don't want something that I constantly have to baby. It's bad enough that I have to change the batteries every 2-3 weeks when I'm particularly heavy into Galaxian and Tetris, but worrying about power twice a week--forget it.
Everyone seems to have different battery needs. I got used to the nightly charge due to my Palm V wireless modem from Omnisky. It required a charge every night, or it became worthless. Definitly one of the bad things, but the good thing it did was insure I never heard my cell phone complain about a low battery again because of the training it put me through. (Although now the cellphone gets it's charge in the daily drive to work. Could always do this for a handheld as well)
> But with a handheld that can play MPEG-4 movies
I'm sorry, but that's a joke. Besides the we-can-do-it factor, I see absolutely no purpose in that, and please spare me the I-stream-video-over-wireless thing. I know more people that have ditched their expensive Casio E-xxx because the video and MP3 novelty wore off than I know people that ditched Palms because they NEEDED video.
The MPEG 4 part is definitly not a joke. The iPaq comes loaded with an ad for "Packet Video", and after looking into it, it's a MPEG 4 player, complete with the entire iPaq promotional video at 1.4 megs. It definitly has the system at it's limits, but it's nice to see the power there. And while streaming video may not be overly useful, I recently heard of someone who converted a DVD to an MPEG 4 file, loaded it on a microdrive, and enjoyed a movie on a flight. Sure, it dosen't beat a laptop with a big screen, but when you don't own a laptop, it's better then solataire
> access to PCMCIA wireless (modem or LAN)
Here I fully agree, I think wireless connectivity is the killer app that will push PDAs out of their niche. I'm pining for the day when I can carry my PDA around the entire company with constant connectivity, live email updates, web browsing during boring meetings, etc. All without killing the batteries in 2 hours or less.
Same here. My facility at work is having 802.11 wireless installed, and the ability to get quick web updates on the road with a CDPD modem is quite nice. And instead of having the issue of only having access with my Palm V, my CDPD modem will be useful on the handheld or laptop when traveling, all for one monthly bill and one up front price for hardware.
Color screens I personally find quite unnecessary. I know many disagree, but for useful information display a good contrast monochrome screen like my M100 is perfectly acceptable. Only when color requires no compromises in readability and especially power usage will I change my opinion. I think a large screen size with good resolution is more important. I wish manufacturers would work harder on converting more of the frontal area of the PDAs into screen.
I like the color on my iPaq for certail things, like the ability to read black text on a white background. I really couldn't stand reading much on my Palm V, but with the iPaq, I am halfway through the e-book Timeline.
Actually, I do rather like the new iPaq. I think it's pretty close to an ideal PDA in terms of functionality and power. All it needs now is 1-2 weeks of good use per charge, and more expandability. And a lower price. Carrying something that cost over $500 carelessly in the pant pocket is not my idea of prudence. My cheap M100 on the other hand I don't worry too much about.
The expansion possibilities are comming, but I am happy with CF and PCMCIA for now. Battery life is going to be a tough one to advance from here, but one day it will happen. Price will hopefully also come down, although I have spent quite a bit on getting a new shiny toy, so I don't mind that much. ($450 on the Palm V, $300 on it's modem, and now $500 on the iPaq). I still like the Palm line for some things, but the color attempt needs to be redone. I wasn't impressed with the IIIc at all.
Re:out of curiousity (Score:1)
Just give us your eternal soul, plus $7.50 for shipping......