Is Novell Doomed? 256
man_of_mr_e asks: "I recently had a bit of an epiphany, and wondered what other Slashdot readers think. It occurred to me that we haven't heard much from Novell regarding either Linux or the recent anti-trust developments. I began to wonder why. Then it hit me: Novell is doomed no matter what happens. With the exception of NDS, Novell has very little technology that makes sense in a Linux environment, and even NDS is losing ground to LDAP based solutions. So, Novell finds itself in the unusual position of hoping that MS wins its anti-trust appeals, since Linux could very well make Netware irrelevant.
On the flip side, if MS wins it's anti-trust appeals, then Netware has to compete with NT/2000 and ActiveDirectory. Again, this could make Netware largely irrelevant, especially now that most network printers are all direct-IP addressable and have little need for a print server (or at least in the concept that Netware/NT have)." Is this a good analysis or does Novell have an ace in the hole that will guarantee some future revenues?
This is news? (Score:1)
You just get your morning coffee? (Score:2)
Or was that Apple?
Or was that Castro?
I forget
Novell's secret weapon (Score:2)
Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes.
To answer the question "is Novell doomed", the assembled
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never (Score:2)
Share price (Score:1)
-Duke
Yes they are (Score:1)
I knew they were doomed once TCP/IP trumped IPX.
What's the next Ask Slashdot, Is Data General doomed?
Transformation (Score:1)
My Second Vote Was For Gore [mikegallay.com]
The ASP market ... (Score:4)
Is Novell doomed? (Score:1)
Short answer: Yup.
--ken
Like I've been saying... (Score:1)
I'm eager to see the Netware server be replaced or revived with BSD or Win2K Advanced server. Maybe then we can have Win2K Pro on the lab workstations instead of NT4SP5. Besides, 3DSMAX would look a lot prettier in full Direct3D splendor, as well as true DirectX sound acceleration.
Schools and Netware (Score:5)
Novell silent but deadly. (Score:2)
Re:Like I've been saying... (Score:1)
Ace in the hole = NDS (Score:2)
What would you do? (Score:1)
They never should have sold off WordPerfect! (Score:1)
It will be a slow death... (Score:1)
In the long run though they haven't innovated in any significant way in a while. It seems like ever since the Internet came to town they've been struggling to figure out how to take advantage of it. I suspect it may be too late.
So, barring any miracle come backs I would expect to see them drift into obscurity/bankruptcy in the next 5 years or so.
Novell is cutting workforce by 16% (Score:4)
But this doesn't necessarily follow... (Score:2)
A better way to ask this question may have simply been, "Is Novell going to come up with something to keep themselves afloat, or are Linux, MS, and everyone else going to eat them alive?" Of course, that doesn't have the magic MS antitrust, CueCat, or PS2 topics involved, and so probably never would have made the cut.
CNE man says (Score:1)
--Doomed
Re:Novell still has some good products (Score:1)
don't think Novell is out of the picture yet.
Bullshit.
http://polygraph.ircache. net
Squid beat out the Novell box (the Dell)in most tests.
Ace in the hole. (Score:2)
Novell (Score:2)
I prefer a Novell server for a file server or print server then say an NT server, as with Novell inherent design, no one does much from the console, where as in some (I do say some) people running NT servers, all of a sudden start installing office and other applications on the servers.
Then again, I lock my linux box up, and don't let people do anything from the console.
Novell is just that, a file server, and for performance, it's pretty sweet. Everyone just seems to get lazy and prefer pretty graphics on there machines, nothing wrong with that, but it's a server, your not supposed to have to actually sit at it to do everything (yes yes, I know you can remotely administer NT servers, but some people like to customize desktops (ever seen catz or dogz running on your production servers? fun to play with while your waiting for something to happen))
My 2 cents
Re:Like I've been saying... (Score:2)
Huh? (Score:2)
On the flip side, if MS wins it's anti-trust appeals, then Netware has to compete with NT/2000 and ActiveDirectory.
Er, exactly how does NT/2000 and ActiveDirectory go away if MS loses its anti-trust appeals? He seems to think that the trial is about forcing Microsoft into bankruptcy.
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Novell (Score:1)
Antitrust case doesn't matter... (Score:1)
Active Directory isn't going to go away. It might land with the OS people, or the Applications people, or whatever, but it will still be out there, and I think they're right: Microsoft's saturation will make it rather difficult for Novell to compete against them. They're DOOMED!
I think though, with LDAP being as solid as it is, and considering its openness, it's really only a matter of time before speciallized commercial directory services shrivel up and die. They just won't be worth paying for.
Eh, that's worth at least $0.02
Not doomed yet... (Score:4)
Never underestimate the laziness of a sysadmin. Easy, fast, large scale network management is in great demand these days, but is largely untapped. This is reason why Microsoft is getting into it, and I suspect that Novell will too.
NDS & LDAP (Score:2)
If you need a directory service, what will you use if not NDS?
I agree that Novell will shrink a little bit, maybe twice, but it will be alive as long as NDS is alive, i.e. all the observable future.
Oracle pulls plug on Netware support. (Score:3)
Imminent death of SomeBigCompany predicted (Score:5)
I've been in the tech industry for more than a couple of decades now. I've heard at least 10 times of the immiment death of Apple. 4 or 5 times the imminent death of Novell. More times than I can count "imminent death of the internet". IBM, micro~1.oft, and many others have their death predicted on a regular basis. Ignore these death notices, instead go play on fuckedcompany.com [fuckedcompany.com] and pick off a few feeble dotcoms. You have a good chance of being right.
the AC
not sure it's Netware (Score:3)
BTW, there is a CLient32 for Windows 2000. No need to dump the Netware server just to run it.
unused land in the silly valley (Score:2)
well, I never did see anyone build on that land. perhaps they finally realized that not even the wonderful Radia (routing guru from DEC who went to work at Novell, last I heard) could save their sinking ship. (btw, is Radia still there? anyone know??)
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Re:Like I've been saying... (Score:3)
If your college sets up a BSD or Win2k server as badly as the Novell box you describe, you will not see improvements.
Novell popular til they cracked down on licensing. (Score:2)
Well, if you made an ass of me like this, I'd probably quit dealing with you in the future. Looks like that's what happened with Novell.
Well enjoy your strict license enforcement. You think it protects profits. I'll just shop elsewhere and prove that your practises will have the exact opposite effect. Maybe go with a Linux solution. Fuck you Novell.
Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:5)
I work in a Netware 5 environment and we have run Netware here since v3.11 and they have absolutely no intentions of ever switching to Linux, NT, or any other OS. Netware has always performed beautifully and NT won't scale to the size and stability that we need. Linux is a great OS and I love it, but the work required to change our corrugated cardboard system here to Linux would be way too expensive.
Norampac (the company I work for) is very dedicated to staying with Novell & Netware and I imagine there are plenty of other companies that are out there that are in the same situation. Yes, perhaps other companies are producing products that can do things in the same fashion, but that doesn't mean the company is dead. Novell produces some extremely reliable and rock solid software and the companies out there using it, know that.
Don't say a company is dead just because they're old.
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Re:The ASP market ... (Score:2)
I local DSL ISP offered pay per use software using Novell tech. This wasn't fancy web apps but full blown software like MS Office. Last I checked none of the costomers cared. All they wanted was an Internet connection.
Re:Novell (Score:3)
uum...
s/runs/ran/; s/is/was/; s/Comes/came/;
You might be interested in this [linuxtoday.com] ; message to linux-kernel from Jeff Merkey.
Short quote
Novell is doomed at least w.r.t. their OS.
NDS, Printservers... Novell (Score:2)
Print servers are still very much needed. An organization with many many printers doesn't want to have to change 100 client machines every time they upgrade. They want to go to the print server, change the IP, or LPT, or whatever, to the new one, and be done with it.
Novell itself had everything at one point, but the world has changed. I don't think there's anything they can do but continue to support their current customers. I couldn't care less, as any open system provides me with so many more options than something closed such as Novell.
Novell's ace in the hole (Score:4)
Can Microsoft leverage its OS hegemony to oust NDS in favor of AD? Perhaps. But there are a lot of us Novell people out there who will fight it tooth and nail. We like NDS, and we are not going to let bonehead management get fooled into an inferior system like AD.
Now, if Microsoft loses... First, what makes you think that if MS gets broken up, everyone's going to flock over to Linux? We're still going to have tons of Windows boxes that need to access network objects. And even if everyone does go to Linux, there is not a UN*X answer to the power of NDS. I would say that if MS gets broken up, things would look very good for Novell. Why do you think that NDS doesn't make sense in a Linux world? We will still have desktop workstations that need to access network objects. And NDS STILL is (IMBO) the best way of managing large users, groups, and network objects.
--
"How many six year olds does it take to design software?"
Network-aware printers (Score:3)
Network-aware printers don't make Netware (or any other server-based print management solution) irrelevant any more than SAN hardware makes file servers irrelevant; it's a bitch to manage a medium sized LAN's printing needs without one or more print servers, and effing impossible to do so with a large LAN.
Although it's possible that Novell will go away, or that Netware will go away, network-aware printers will have nothing to do with it. In fact, companies that run server-based LANs are more likely to buy network-aware printers, in my admittedly-unscientific anecdotal experience.
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Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
While I can't speak for corporate policy, I highly doubt that we're going to just suddenly up and switch to Windows 2000.
As long as Novell has huge customers like us paying for their overpriced products, they aren't going anywhere.
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novell dead? (Score:3)
If you think Novell is sitting still, or even deteriorating, check out this link [cnn.com]. It's just another example of Novell continuing to find ways to extend their technologies.
I'm not claiming that Novell is preparing for world domination. But Novell's death has been rumored for years. If anything, I'd bet that they would be bought-out by a big player. (Oracle, IBM, AOL?)
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
ACL's on file servers. Or local servers for that matter (do NOT tell me about ext3, I need something that ships now).
Auto-installation of printer drivers (hm does Samba do this yet?). I hack emacs lisp, I can hand-edit sendmail.cf (to some degree), I write perl, but jesus christ printing under Unix is still something I despise doing.
Cross-domain authentication. Kerberos you say? Show me a linux server and client that has everything kerberos-enabled out of the box. I won't touch NIS+ with a 10 foot bargepole. Even Sun won't (now they're moving to LDAP for all services, hope Linux keeps up)
So I guess Linux *can* do it all. Just by way of numerous crocks and kludges that even an experienced admin is loathe to touch, much less an intern.
Re:Smaller Co's Unlikely to Move (Score:2)
Incorrect information (Score:5)
NDS did not appear until NetWare 4.0 - not 3.x. 3.x did have a utility to sync info from one bindery to another, and later from NDS to a bindery, but NDS did not appear until 4.0.
Several places people ask why use NDS when you can use LDAP, or that LDAP make NDS irrelevant. LDAP is a protocol not an implmentation. NDS is LDAP v3 compliant. NDS implments LDAP. It just also happens to do lots more.
Novell does have a very good web proxy server. It has been a leader in the price/performance ratings for the last serveral bake-offs. But there is more to a proxy than just speed. Setup, administration, etc. Dell, IBM, and Compaq all OEM Novell's ICS (Internet cache system) product.
I have no idea on where the rumor above about Novell and Oracle developing a new OS from scratch for the last 3 years has come from, but I can tell you it is false. Not happening. Don't hold your breath.
Re:let's see... (Score:2)
Re:Novell's ace in the hole (Score:2)
Its called NDS.
Since NDS can be exposed with LDAP unix/pam will play nicely with it. In fact, I have a NDS/LDAP server on a linux box for testing purposes now, with no netware in sight.
The core question assumed that NDS was loosing groud to LDAP bases solutions.. Um NDS is a LDAP solution. Will openldap (or whatever) support a couple of hundreds of objects? Sure. Tens of thousands of objects? Maby. Millions? Proabably not.
Netware may be largely irrelevent, but NDS/eDirectory is the future. Judging from last winters trade show theme of "One Net", Novell dosent even realy care about netware anymore (or at least is focusing on NDS/eDirectory.
If you dont understand why NDS is a good thing then you havent ever had to administer a non trivial network with more then a few dozen objects.
I think there are some things to be cleared up (Score:2)
Second, I've seen Novell's software in use in places since the late eighties, and for the past five to six years I have heard from numerous places that 'Novell is dying'. I'm here to tell you that it is putting up a rather decent fight. Surely since the barrage of Microsoft's NT Server platforms became prevalent around '96, they have had to change their tactics a bit. However, simply saying that they're dying off is ridiculous.
I am very pleased with NetWare as a server OS. I have never seen a single Microsoft empowered server stand up in sheer up-time. In fact our company had a Novell 3.12 Server that had an uptime of well over 18 months. Then a power outage occured that the battery backup couldn't handle...and well, the drives, heh..hmm, let's not go there (it was a sad day all around, poor computer). By comparison, our NT Terminal Server (avec Citrix Metaframe 1.8), needs a fresh boot once every few weeks...our NT4 Server (avec Exchange) about once every two months.
We've got two NetWare servers in the company now, and I'm impressed by the application serving that is going on with GroupWise and such. This shows that Novell has not just rested on their already potent file sharing, but has moved on to compete in the app-server arena.
I think that due to several factors we'll see Novell around for quite some time. NDS, ZenWorks, GroupWise...they've got a few things they can market if they choose to do some porting to other platforms. Whether or not linux and MS are threats, there has been enough of a niche market for years (education, die hard IT guys in businesses), small business alone is a good place for Novell.
Rock hard stability is something that is hard to give up. The expense of a sweeping platform migration is even more deterrent for some places.
In the end, third party application support may be Novell's down fall. This is sad, since it is such a great platform.
ok, I'll end my rambling now
Who dare to say Novell's dead? (Score:2)
Meanwhile Novell remained the ONE file server enterprise. No other file server system preforms as well and good as Netware. In this point, the specialization of Novell managed to overdevelop this core task. Netware servers are not only fast but highly perfect. They possess a powerful set of tools to help in major and secondary tasks for file transfer and storage. Their reliability is extraordinary if we compare to other systems. In 8 years of work, I had only two serious cases of filesystem crash (!). And one of them was overcome because these guys are excellent developers. Their filesystem is an excellent piece of art. I know this because I had to see a whole GB in hexadecimal to recover it. FAT is a Frankenstein compared to it.
What about NDS? It is GENERATIONS ahead of anyone else. When you have thousands of users working on a a fileserver system it is a life in the clouds compared to the dumb NT file sharing world. And their emulation of 95/NT workstation administration, is several orders ahead of Microsoft. Under NDS you can administer stations, users and several other resources through an easy centralized interface with a level of control much higher than M$. In fact NDS is supposed to center all system administration around itself. And it does this in a way that can be only classified as "highly positive". Maybe it possesses some drawbacks. One of them that NT stations do not work better with it...
In the mean time there are some things that are not well with Novell. First its overlook on Linux. Until now I haven't seen tools and resources on Linux that could be compared to the Windows ones. Things are still too raw here. Second its closed source environment. Sincerly this is what hinders Novell. Developers and experts are few due to this situation. Yes they distribute SDK's, tools, docs and have a powerful support for developers. But the fact that they sell an "extravagant OS" in such way blows the whole thing.
Anyway I would say that this is a closed source OS that deserves a good look. Note: file server services work with the new Linux kernel and things seem not bad in preformance. This is not NFS.
I wish... (Score:2)
Load your NLMs by selecting weapons. Kill user connections by blasting marine zombies. Run DSREPAIR by destroying the Cyberdemon.
It would be like that Jurassic Park scene where the mad haX0r kid runs the park through a virtual reality environment only with much more blood and Spider Masterminds.
Kind of like this: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/do om/
J
Of spades... (Score:2)
Strong existing user base. That's an ace in anyone's ... ahem...nevermind.
Yes, it's eroding. Yes, it's aging. But, it is there.
At least Novell made it longer than Bayan Vines!
Now hiring experienced client- & server-side developers
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
Point #1 is why institutions are contemplating switching to a Windows network.
Point #2: Samba is only good for about 100 users. Check out www.networkcomputing.com They have an article from a few months back about Linux/NetWare/and NT-2000 and what stands up or what shakes out. Linux works, but still isn't ready for enterprise adminstration and still needs Samba tuned to hold 500+ users per box.
We have a P133 Netware 5.0 box that holds 200+ users on IP and IPX. AND a Ppro box that holds IP, IPX, and AppleTalk users on Netware 5.0 that never needs rebooting. Netware may be old, but it works well!
Mikeapplies to more companies than just novell (Score:2)
I wouldn't go as far as to say that novell is doomed (right now), but if they don't come with something new, they will become more and more irrelevant. Probably they'll be bought up at some time.
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:5)
Multi-platform environment (Score:4)
I also don't think that you can directly compare NDS and LDAP. LDAP is a protocol to access a directory (and is supported by NDS). NDS is a distributed directory service. I know that NDS has been tested with a billion users (granted this was on a real-no-kidding-around server). NDS can also run natively on Linux and Solaris. I have also heard rumors of other platforms being included. There is also a product (I believe developed at Clemson University) called Authserv that will interface with NDS and allow authentication on about any platform you'd like (including mainframes).
We also use Novell's Zenworks to distribute applications to our Win9x/NT/2K boxes. This is a very slick package. The newest version of it supports imaging (side note -- they are using Linux boot disks to do this!).
Netware itself is not all that special. It is very stable -- my Unix boxes and my Netware boxes both stay up unless I take them down on purpose. However, it is just a file and print sharing OS at heart. In my opinion NDS and Zenworks are Novells two strongest products (groupwise is kinda nice, but I don't feel that it is as on the same level as NDS or Zen).
Having said all of that, I believe the company is in big trouble. I would like to see them come out of it, but this seems unlikely. To me the best possible outcome is for a company (hmmm, RedHat for instance) to buy them and keep NDS and Zen alive.
Novell has had a lot of good ideas and sound products. They have done a really lousy job of marking them, however. NDS has been around for years, but there are a lot more people familiar with Active Directory than NDS (even though, in my opinion, NDS is a far superior directory service). Similarly MS started looking at ZEN and seems to be trying to counter with ZAN. Novell starts talking about "One Net" and Microsoft comes out with ".NET". The difference is MS can market themselves and Novell can't -- even after cleaning house in the marketing department. Their TV commercials don't seem to be very effective at describing what it is that Novell can do. It just seems to me to be a case of too little, too late.
I don't think that the company is going to go belly up anytime soon, but with their stock so cheap someone is likely to buy them. I just hope that when they do, they don't screw up NDS. It would be very great if a Linux company did buy them and then made NDS opensource, but that would probably make my life too easy...
Re:Imminent death of SomeBigCompany predicted (Score:3)
However, when you've got to go to the client side, and install the Novell Client everywhere, and different versions of Novell Client break stuff left and right, it quickly becomes a nightmare in an NT environment.
I'm not saying that Novell writes crappy clients. In fact, I believe the opposite is true, when you look at all the cool stuff you can configure on these clients, the Microsoft Networking client doesn't come close. But Microsoft is constantly changing stuff with their OS, and while MS can manage to keep versions from Win95, 98, ME, NT 3.5 4.0, W2k, more or less working, you add NDS and Novell Clients to the mix and the result is an unsupportable nightmare. It's just a sad fact that Microsoft out-flanked Novell on the desktop. (Novell realized this when they bought DRDOS, and WP, but it was too late, by that time, Win95 was almost nigh - Novell DOS 7 kicked ass, but it didn't kick enough ass against Win95). Once Microsoft controlled the desktop, and kept Novell scrambling by constantly breaking the client, the battle was all over. My CNE is toilet paper now.
Niches of the IT marketplace (Score:3)
IBM seems to accumulate these dark corners- AS/400 and Lotus Domino spring to mind. There are LOTS of folks using these things, and are very happy with them. This is mostly because IBM and Lotus have focused their product development based largely on the feedback of their customers and less on the strategic hypewagon predictions of the analysts. These technologies don't necessarily conform much to the "mainstream" way of doing things- hands-on Notes experience is not going to transfer to running a sendmail system in any way, shape or form. This means that the communities and the people within them remain isolated... AS/400 companies look for AS/400 administrators, and there's not a lot of cross-pollination.
I think Netware represents another one of these niches. Novell has been focused on meeting the needs expressed by its current customer base, and the technology they have has evolved "differently" because of it. Unfortunately, they don't have the market muscle of IBM to continue this indefinitely... as has been pointed out several times already in the thread, NDS is the only possible strategic salvation for the company.
Unfortunately, NDS is stuck between a rock and a hard place. It can't compete in the low-end directory market because AD comes "free" with NT and does a servicable (if inferior) job for the bulk of the folks that would need it. At the high-end of the market, enterprises are biased towards big-iron / UNIX X.500 directory systems- Novell still brings up images of "lan servers" and 386s in many minds.
So I wouldn't count on NDS (cool as it may be) to save Novell. But I wouldn't count on Novel spontaneously combusting anytime soon either... unless there are major financial issues, they've got a loyal market segment whose needs they meet, and will continue to pay them as long as that remains true. Barring any financial stupidity by Novell's management, they can continue to ride this... and there's always the chance they'll come up with something that will put them back into the limelight.
Novell's not going anywhere anytime soon... (Score:5)
Novell has $1Billion in the bank and no debt (and has been debt-free for quite some time), which is better than most of the dotcoms you hear about every day.
Novell has an HUGE installed base that is generally very happy with their products. Because their products are so technically good, they generally run for YEARS and don't require a constant schedule of patching/upgrading/paying more money for them, which actually works against Novell (in comparison to MS) for revenue.
Most of their current product line is cutting-edge, and often is technically superior to ANY alternatives (including Linux/Open Sourced ones!). Their BorderManager product (cache/proxy/auth/rev. proxy/etc.) is excellent. Their GroupWise product (multi-platform Groupware) has been top-notch for years, and I prefer it to Exchange (duh!), Notes, and POP/IMAP-based systems. Netware 5+ (5.1 was released about a YEAR ago--5 has been around for almost 2.5 years) supports the NCP protocol via PureIP (not encapsulated NetBIOS like SMB) and does it with amazing elegance and grace (using SLP to "find" the NDS tree, then walking the tree for information about resources, rather than using broadcasts). And NDS (renamed "eDirectory"), the jewel in their crown, is beautiful. (They're practically GIVING AWAY NDS for Linux, by the way... It'd be really nice to start MANAGING all of those Linux boxes without having to use NIS...)
Smartly, they're putting more of their focus on developing products that leverage NDS (including the ones listed above). Check out stuff like ZENworks (best desktop management software available anywhere), NetPublisher, SingleSignOn, and all of their public/private key infrastructure technology. Additionally, they're porting practically everything (management tools & back-end server components) to Java (remember Java?) as Netware 5 runs Java faster than just about anything.
Their problems have always been (and continue to be) twofold:
1) They lack the mindshare that "exciting" companies have. Even when they are technically innovative, no one thinks of them first because they're still stuck thinking that they only make "old fileservers." Every time MS forces users to upgrade or releases a patch to fix yet another security hole, their mindshare increases. Novell doesn't have those problems (not as many), and so they tend to fade into the background...
2) Novell has always targeted their products toward the "geeks." Their technology is always really cool and cutting-edge, but it is often too complex to easily explain to CIOs/CFOs and other cheif decision makers who rely on traderags and full-page ads to make their choices. I've been working with NDS for about 5 years--5 years ago, it was very difficult to convey to people what a directory WAS, let alone how NDS could save a company tons of money and time. It's hard to capture that technology into a short blurb or advertisement. So the geeks continue to love Novell products, and the CIOs/CFOs continue to steamroll over Novell's stuff with MS's stuff...
Even with all of that said, they'll be around for a while... I was once concerned, but realize there will always be a market for their technology.
(What the hell is up with this micro-sized editor window?)
Re:ignorance abounds (Score:2)
Why would you have to retrain the workers? Do they really know DOS or just the application?
Just port the app to Linux using ncurses... the core logic would probably be identical, except easier since you wouldn't run into 640K memory limitations.
Of course, if it ain't broke don't fix it. If the DOS machines are stable enough (<2 reboots/day), Just keep 'em until they die. Be aware, however that MS is dropping support for DOS and will eventually drop DOS altogether.
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
Re:unused land in the silly valley (Score:2)
Ok, here are the facts, I love this speculation!
We actually own the whole campus right there (set of four buildings right next to the big red post that says "Novell/BMC Software". We own all the buildings, but we occupy only the front one just off 87 and 1st.
The other buildings are leased out, and one is the Silicon Valley convention center.
We never built on the open field next to the campus because it is a protected habitat for burrowing owls (no joke) that we had to relocate from the original campus.
I love my job. I work with cool technology every day. Novell books about $800 million dollars in revenue per year, and we have a loyal customer base. The products I'm working on are platform independent, cutting edge, and interesting.
-Twid
The future might kill Novell then. (Score:2)
The people who have written something on this article that have provided (+1 Informative) information seem to have a clue as to how Novell works and what it is useful for. The people who have written (+1 Interesting) comments saying that Novel will be replaced by zillions of other available systems, seem to be
Lets set some things in perspective. Novell is very powerful as internet and intranet construction. It is *surprise* not intuitively obvious to use effectively. It is not useful for setting up a personal dorm room LAN, because it is designed for much larger businesses - not 4 or 5 computers. The price tag to accompany this software which will be used for 4 or 5 computers makes it equally useless to the average college student. Some students will wind up working for a campus computer center, but very few will actually have any interaction with the servers. For this reason, few college students (and even fewer high school students) ever have an interaction with novel above and beyond the [CTRL+ALT+SHEEP] sign to log in.
So, your print server for 9,000 students at a state institution seems a bit slow during peak hours? Hmmm... thats like at least 8,000 people more than the majority of businesses have that use Novell. I'd argue just about anything is slow when 9,000 people are all trying to do it at the same time.
Let me skip back to something I mentioned earlier. Some college students do get Novell administrator duties at colleges - and do get experience. I remind you though, they are getting experience. That means, more than likely, they're screwing up the network (accidentally) and getting the experience from someone who *may or may not* know how to fix it. Have you ever considered how little state institution employees are paid? and how little educators are paid as well (in comparrison to PhDs in the workforce)? IT workers who usually work at a school do it for some combination of the following three reasons: #1 they enjoy the people they work with, #2 they went to the school and can't leave yet (afraid of the real world), and #3 the other jobs they qualified for involved flipping burgers. I'd like to think most people fall into the #1 category, but lets face it there are a few who obviously didn't...
So, for the most part academia networks are set up by a bunch of idiots leading around snot nosed kids who screw things up. You wonder why your print server sucks?
Now we'll actually touch the print server issue. YES, the PRINT SERVER IS ANTIQUATED. That does not mean that it is no longer used, just that #1 people can't afford to switch it over to a better system immediately, #2 it is too low a priority to switch it over immediately, and/or #3 they do not know how to switch it over. 'Nuf said on that topic.
However what has this all meant? Students who have not actively sought out good experiences with novell will never really understand its full merrits. Therefore, they will not make the effort to learn it, and when they are actually designing IT architectures, they probably will fail to include it as a product.
The old guard (and by that I mean over the age of 25) who have had experience with novell, will eventually get a higher paying job, or change fields, or retire, or what have you... basically be put out to pasture... Regardless, their experience will probably not be spread as widely as more companies start up "Novell Free" and it is slowly avoided as the college and hs students of today become the managers of tomorrow.
So, rather than say "Novell sucks... so its going to die." why don't you learn it and recognize its power? Novell is no longer frontline news or cutting technology, but it certainly needs to be recognized for what it is and what it does better.
Novell's Gonna Be Here for a While (Score:2)
One thing Novell has going for it is a huge installed base. Especially in higher ed institutions. This gives Novell a lot of inertia. While they can go only so far without some serious innovation, they can coast long enough to find a new niche, or perhaps, even a purpose.
Novell ought to be a killer Linux company (Score:2)
pulled out of what? (Score:3)
TOTAL=3449.95
PERIOD = 1
DO 10 WHILE (MICROSOFT:SUCKS)
- crash(hairLoss,sleepLoss,faceLoss)
10 CONTINUEupgrade TOTAL=TOTAL + (1+interest*PERIOD)*TOTAL
wait (PERIOD)
Evil indeed. Just thought you would appreciate another perspective as much as I did, oh child of SATAN.
Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
Yes, NDS is basically a superset of LDAP. Unfortunately for Novell most people are more than happy to either:
A) Use someone else's LDAP server (including the freely available OpenLDAP).
B) Use Microsoft's Active Directory.
NDS is only being used by those sites that are already Novell faithful. And the number of Novell faithful is shrinking, not growing. Since sales drives profits Novell has to either charge their existing customers more money, or they have to cut costs.
I personally believe that it is the beginning of a long dark night for Novell. Soon Netware will be in the same boat as Banyan Vines. They still will have some good technology, but no one will care.
Why NDS will fail (Score:2)
Places that want a directory system above and beyond Windows 2000 (for Solaris, mainframes, etc) may buy into NDS, but those places won't be enough to guarantee NDS ubiquity.
ADS may be an inferior product but by the very virtue of its ubiquity it will be sucessful and cloned or have other products made to successfully interact with it. Look at Samba vs. MARS-NWE.
I often wonder if NDS supporters (like me) really want NDS per se, or just a good directory solution. ADS seems to be weak relative to NDS, but I keep asking myself what the cost buying into NDS will be 2 or 4 years down the road, especially if Novell's business suffers and NDS gets bought out by a third party.
NDS and caching -UNLESS- "MANOS" = hand of fate (Score:2)
NDS is a strong, LDAP & TCP/IP based directory solution directly competing with AD and X500. It is extensible and more robust than any other currently shipping complete solution (which is not the same as saying robust). NDS is a port of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' "FLAME" database and as such has some odd features based more on religious faith than technology.
NDS is multi-platform (including linux and nasty old solaris) and scalable. Like, really, really, really, scalable, literally billions of user objects have been demo'd at Brainshare in Utah. I saw it with my own eyes, as did thousands of other beer-deprived Brainsappers.
NDS and the ICS caching solution are the products intended to keep Novell on the map. Unfortunately for them, a couple of Novell renegades have set up Timpanogas group to create MANOS which is to be a drop-in netware OSS clone. The CEO of Timpanogas, Jeff Murkey (rhymes with Stef Mirkey) is reportedly a gifted coder and was at one time developing native NDS for linux. He got in a spat with Alan and Linus over kernel debuggers, though, and took his football home with him.
Anyway, Novell is in fine shape if Timpanogas can be kept from releasing true NDS clones under a GPL. If not, they have a long time to get a new product going, because of their large installed base. High-end sites will prefer ICS to squid for performance reasons for some time to come, and the Groupwise product (one of those bloated total office solution thingies) hasn't yet alienated their entire customer base.
--Charlie
Netware may last, but Novell is done. (Score:2)
Unfortunately for Novell existing Netware installations don't really help them out. After all, they have already taken your money. If you continue using your DOS solution forever then you might as well have switched to another operating system as far as Novell is concerned. Linux may be able to get by on sheer market share, but Novell needs to make new sales to stay in business.
Besides, while Netware makes a great file server, and their directory is nifty, it's not what people are using to develop the next generation of software. Eventually your supermarket is going to want to upgrade to a new accounting package, or a new point of sale system and that new package is not going to run on Netware. So you will either have hire admins who know both Netware and something else, or you will have to ditch Netware and use your new OS for file and print as well as application serving. I think that you will find that every OS in the world does an acceptable job at file and print serving. Netware has specialized in a field where just about everyone has an offering that is "good enough."
Novell is also losing the training war. It used to be that Novell's army of CNEs were their biggest salesforce. Nowadays these same people are MCSEs, and are actively campaigning to yank out Netware (because it makes them money).
Novell is dead, it's only a matter of time.
Re:Smaller Co's Unlikely to Move (Score:2)
L in LDAP (Score:2)
Dave
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.
Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.
Re:Why NDS will fail (Score:2)
The problem remains with newbies. They may risk to enter into a Win00 only world. However they will surely enter the pitfalls of ADS. There I can see two solutions. Either they decide mixed technologies where such solutions like NIS+ and NDS are introduced. Or they blow up their networks. Turn them into the "Future of Developers" picture. Yeah it may be not so bad for users. They will jump from tree to tree and eat bananas...
PS: "Future of Developers" was a popular picture back in 95 that showed up after the launch of Win95. Its popularity was due to the fact that Microsoft took a few steps towards its software base that were a full blow against the independent development. Small developers suffered the most and many gave up programming. The picture of Middle Age skulls, lined in a shelf, turned into a obligatory desktop item then.
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
+3? Amazing what people will mod up without even knowing if it's true.
I would bet that the vast majority of the people who have written posts about how Novell is already dead, or will be soon, have never touched a Novell server. I've been doing admin on them since 2.2. Nothing is more stable, nothing is faster(on similiar hardware), nothing is more SECURE, nothing is as easy to administer.
Sure, it's not sexy, but it works and is rock solid. Please don't comment on the death of a company or product that you know absolutely nothing about.
Novell and Redhat in Bed Together? (Score:2)
The company's recent announcement of a partnership with Red Hat Software on further development of eDirectory for Linux and Red Hat's commitment to using eDirectory on its forthcoming Red Hat Network is an interesting development. At the press conference I asked Schmidt whether any merger or acquisition discussions were ongoing between Novell and Red Hat and was told (per Securities and Exchange Commission rules), "I can't talk about that, either to say yes or no." After a short pause, Schmidt added, "We like them a lot."
What about Novell ICS? (Score:2)
Their Internet Caching System.
Novell figured out several years ago that their BorderManager server scaled better on static page serving via its caching services than most web servers did. They placed two BorderManager servers in a reverse-proxy setup in *front* of their own web servers, and watched their web servers be able to serve up DRAMATICALLY more pages than they could alone.
They created a development effort to strip down BorderManager, rebuild the file system into a BTREE, and parlay this caching service into an integrated, vendor-only hardware/software solution to leverage into a platform. They have largely succeeded.
We have two Compaq boxes running Novell's Internet Caching System. ICS is not something you can just buy off the shelf. It's heavily engineered for the systems on which it runs. Let me share some statistics.
One of our web sites has, historically, run over 4 million hits per day (www.excitestores.com, if you're interested). ICS reduced our number of Apache processes running from about 30-60 at any given time to *7* (that's 5 base HTTPD processes, plus two). The memory load dropped tremendously, and ICS achieved a 94% page hit ration in this reverse-proxy setup, with a 57% byte hit ratio. This means that our e-commerce setup, which heretofore required 10 web servers to service, now only requires TWO, plus two ICS boxes. And the load on the ICS boxes has never passed 5% CPU utilization.
ICS also does some other pretty amazing things. It can "SSL-ize" content, so you store your certificates on the cache server and you don't need to compile mod_ssl for Apache (which, in case you didn't know, is a HUGE hit on your CPU). You can arrange content delivery to remote sites (ala Akamai's service) and have enormous bandwidth savings. You can leverage the ability of the box to intelligently handle your traffic and scale to over 100,000 simultaneous connections (Our Apache daemons, at about 10 MB each on a box with 2GB of memory, are far more limited than that).
Suffice to say, I believe that Novell has a long and prosperous future ahead of it. We evaluated many different caching technologies, and chose ICS over Squid and several proprietary solutions; even in our UNIX-savvy environment (all our production services run on UNIX except the caches), ICS won out. Novell has already learned the lesson Linux is starting to: success comes, not necessarily in being the best at what you do, but being darn good at an awful lot of things. Their recent staffing cutbacks reflect the changes in strategy from a "software company" to a "solutions company".
DISCLAIMERS:
I do not work for Novell. I have just purchased their products because of technical superiority. Novell is fighting an uphill battle to get into a company dominated by Solaris and Linux. So don't assume I'm a troll because I like what I see : )
Matt Barnson
Re:I think there are some things to be cleared up (Score:2)
NDS *predated* LDAP.
NDS evolved because of X.500 and DAP (Directory Access Protol)'s weaknesses (principally, the reliance on a tiered directory request system that didn't work well.) Novell replaced X.500's proxy request system for authentication with a "referral" system -- allowing one NDS server to refer a client to another NDS server's resources without making the request itself.
The standards bodies took some of the best ideas from DAP and NDS, revised them to suit their ideas of how it should work, and created "DAP Light", or LDAP.
So LDAP came about because of NDS -- not the other way around. Now NDS supports LDAP, too, and everyone benefits.
Matt Barnson
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
Maybe that's the problem right there, very few nerd types know all that much about it. That alone should say volumes for the amount of market share it presently enjoys.
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
I think the biggest reason why you find them in schools so much is they just work. They sit in a back room somewhere, and do their job, day in and day out, needing little or no maintainance. And that's probably the biggest reason -- Netware servers pretty much manage themselves. You leave them alone, they keep working. However, I can't count the number of times I've seen an abend and have had to reboot the server to recover.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
Netware is also much more stable and secure - NDS being a wonderful way to administer multiserver networks (AD sucks, and NDS on NT sucks almost as much, and involves paying TWICE for each user, once to M$oft and once to Not-well). But for straight File-and-print from Windoze boxen, Nothing much beats a Novell server.
Do not EVER run anything on it though - particularly databases; pre-5.0 the lack of virtual memory was a killer, and even in 5.0 the performance you will get is so poor you are better off buying a separate box and running your DB under linux.
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Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
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Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
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Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
Not in general (anything long-term requires a group, I agree) but if you have six files on a usergroup's departmental subdir, and need to set up (for each one) one (different) user with r/w permissions, you do *not* create six new groups - it's unneeded clutter in your NDS namespace that will come back to bite you.
If you have a large number of users with identical permissions: use a group
If you have a single (or $SMALLNUM) user(s) with several logically grouped permissions (like a DB admin that has write to all the database files) then use a role.
Otherwise, it's a oneoff, 1-1 relationship and I don't NEED extra items in my NDS tree, confusing the Helpdeskers and giving me an extra six pages to scroll though when looking for something I need to edit.
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Re:Schools and Netware (Score:2)
No, thats mostly marketing. Regardless of how good a price you get, there are better and cheaper (although probably not both
Point #2: Samba is only good for about 100 users. Linux works, but still isn't ready for enterprise adminstration and still needs Samba tuned to hold 500+ users per box.
A lot varies based on machine spec and tuning, but I agree - Linux still isn't ready to be a windoze-networked fileshare box. NDS for Linux (if Novell cut the prices to the point it is worth the money) should make enterprise admin a breeze, though.
We have a P133 Netware 5.0 box that holds 200+ users on IP and IPX. AND a Ppro box that holds IP, IPX, and AppleTalk users on Netware 5.0 that never needs rebooting. Netware may be old, but it works well!
Yep, Netware is still my OS-of-choice for Straight File-and-print on windoze client networks. C|O|M|P|A|Q unixen or linux are a better choice for databases though, and webserving/proxying.
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Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
Yep. Novell is *almost* worth the prices they ask for it - and once you have it, you consider anyone suggesting getting rid of it certifiably insane
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Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
I'm sorry Novell, but that just ain't true anymore; you are losing market share rapidly to Microsoft and Linux, have been forced to adopt TCP/IP or die, and in fact have done everything *but* cut prices to try and prevent this slide. Well, guess what the *right* option was? Now all you have to worry about is, when do you do it and is it already too late?
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Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
I have, and do. In any novell-based company, the majority of usage is maintainance - maybe the odd hardware upgrade or system unit replacement, more storage, more and better networking, but unless the number of users goes up drastically, a Novell box will take all they can throw at it. Novell's licencing scheme actually DISCOURAGES and even punishes purchasing new servers - even in the "brave new world" of single signon multiserver NDS, it is still a case of buying a new licence per user when you buy a new server, and that is usually the biggest expense. If you upgrade the existing server to the latest and baddest CPU/memory/storage, then it works out much cheaper. I'm sorry, but Novell just haven't looked out the window lately - it *used* to be cheaper to buy a new copy of Netware for a new box than to try and upgrade the current one to match it's capacity, but these days the Netware licence is the biggest expense in that sort of upgrade, and any beancounter will avoid it like the plague.
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Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
I would certainly agree that Novell has the directory. And while I haven't worked at an NDS shop myself, I have seen the powerful benefits demonstrated, and am truly impressed. However, a powerful directory system didn't save Banyan Vines, and it won't save Netware either.
The problem is that Novell is getting precisely zero developer mindshare. Seriously, I would bet there are more people working on software for the Apple ][ than there are non-Novell employees working on Netware applications. This means that no matter what Novell does, or how cool their directory may be companies are almost going to have to use some other OS for their application servers. This means that your admins have to know both Netware and some other NOS. Even worse, while neither Active Directory nor OpenLDAP are nearly as cool as NDS, they are both considerably less expensive, and there are signs that for most people they have already entered the realm of "good enough." How many of us really need to manage a billion resources? If there is one common meme in the computer industry it is that the less expensive product that is "good enough" always wins. There are literally hundreds of examples of this phenomenon.
Remember, while market share is certainly important to Novell, market share doesn't put bread on the table. Novell doesn't need happy customers, they need sales. Every happy Novell customer that is purchasing new licenses might as well be migrating to Linux for as much good as they are doing Novell. Marketing would probably help, but unfortunately they have effectively lost their biggest and most powerful marketing tool, CNEs. Nowadays the people that used to get a CNE are getting an MCSE, and they are basically trying to sell Microsoft solutions. So Novell gets overlooked.
I should bloody well hope not! (Score:2)
Let's see, product that works, superbly documented, support site and line that actually gives a flying fuck about solving problems and support for every desktop platform you're likely to see in service. And lo! It's cheaper than running an NT shop, and everything in it is (or can be, at least) worked with open standards etc.
I grant you, I ain't running a particularly big network with it (three servers, prox 70 hosts of various kinds) but if - like me - you've got another job to do when you ain't fixing, it's a godsend. I'd have bought it at three times the price.
Classic example of why I like Novell so much: before I arrived, the network had run three years with precisely zero maintenance and a configuration that was an absolute disgrace. In that time, it had had one (1) outage. Nice.
Maybe, if I was doing the systems full-time, I'd want to be working with a Unix set-up of one sort or another. That's a hypothetical, though - I haven't any need for that kind of power and felxibility in an environment where all I need is a really, really reliable file server or three.
That aside, I'd rather bite off my own genitals than use any other NOS. I should imagine that there are a lot of other guys running networks in small business environments who feel the same way
Re:Novell is as Dead as Apple (Score:2)
This is, albeit on a larger scale, my experience. It works, it keeps working, and you can bolt anything you damned well please onto it. As long as they keep making those sales, Novell will keep going.
I don't think the Apple comparison is as near the mark as it could be. Novell haven't made half as many major strategic blunders as they could have done, and the one they did make (hanging on to IPX after it outlived its usefulness) they seem to be dealing with rather effectively. Novell's problem is Microsoft's sales force, who are rather better at their jobs than Novell's crowd. I've had six sales pitches for NT in as many weeks from people I called for advice on wholly different topice. I'm discovering that there's a limit to the number of times I can say "been there, done that, don't want it again" without resorting to violence.
Re:Novell's secret weapon (Score:2)
Perhaps there is no Slashdot mentality [slashdot.org] after all.
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Re:Network-aware printers (Score:2)
Of course, FedEx will have to raise it's rate to pay for this. How does $150 per package sound?
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Re:Novell ain't dead, but on the back burner (Score:2)
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Re:Novell's not going anywhere anytime soon... (Score:2)
Banyan are now trading as ePresence, effectivly no more than a M$ reseller, dealing in web services.
The old VINES product has just about been discontinued, the last version (8.6) is still being sold, but not activly developed. Most sites that I worked with have migrated elsewhere.
Banyan had many failings - zero marketing, launching new products (Netware and Unix ports) too early, poor tech-support (particularly in the last few years) and some ghastly bugs (file system corruption from clients running codepage 850 was a really nasty one).
Re:Smaller Co's Unlikely to Move (Score:2)
Speaking as someone who works (with a Novell box in the basement) in one of those smaller firms, I find that the backups get used about every other week as a quick and convenient way of restoring a directory that someone has deleted by mistake. Yes, I know I can set the permissions to prevent this, but the backup tests are useful. For precisely the reasons here enumerated.
Re:I think there are some things to be cleared up (Score:2)
There are lots of issues with X.500, primarily to do with the fact that no-one wanted to implement DAP on the client (and what is a 'generic' directory client for anyway?
What Novell did was implement an X.500 server (NDS) with a specific *purpose* (user, server and printer management) but none of the X.500 access protocols (DAP, DSP etc). (They didn't need to - they put their own client protocols into OS extensions).
Later on they added LDAP and ended up with a nice Directory with some X.500 strengths and LDAP access.
Directories are becoming important. Novell have a nice solution because they have got some X.500 features in there. X.500 vendors have some nice solutions as well, but nothing like Novell's market presence in that arena.
[OK - so I work for an X.500 vendor. So shoot me.]