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Education

CS vs CIS 509

Posted by CmdrTaco from the we've-come-to-a-fork-in-the-road dept.
falco writes "I'm just about to enter my softmore year in computer science and I have begun to question myself about my decision to become a computer scientist. I have been told by alot of graduates that CIS and CS majors are being hired for the same job for the same money. Is this true? Can anyone clear up any misconceptions and truths about this issue? If the previous is false, what are the differences in jobs that a CS major would receive compared to a CIS major? As I'm sure many of you know computer science is more difficult by a factor of 10. I've been questioning whether it's worth wracking my brain with all the math in the CS major. Help and advice would be appreciated."
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CS vs CIS More

CS vs CIS

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  • CS vs CIS (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have degree in Math and CS from University of Nebraska. In my experience, guys with CS degrees end up designing and writing programs, if the wanted do, or they ended up as SysAdmins. The truely outstanding MIS people ended up as SysAdmins, DBAs or ended up managing the rest of the MIS crew. The rest of the MIS guys ended up fixing email clients, configuring new machines. Running cable, deploying new software that the CS guys wrote. Or are operational guys that monitor systems while the SysAdmin is at home sleeping.
    In the end, I believe the CIS guys made less money, primarly due to fewer responsibilities, and a lot of the ones I knew lacked a degree, which didn't help.
    Figure out what it is you want to do, and pick the appropriate major. I have no idea how many CS Majors I know that said they hated programming. They shouldn't be CS majors. I hate trouble shooting shrinkwrapped software for bugs, or attempting to get 3 incompatible pieces of hardware to work in a box. Hence, I shouldn't be an MIS guy. Don't forget to consider that what you really want is to study marine biology, which of course neither CS or CIS will do.

  • CIS=MIS? (Score:2)

    by Enry ( 630 )
    It's been a while since I was in college (10 years). At that time, there was a CS which was much more intensive (read: coding) than the MIS (read: not coding, hey look! e-mail!). MIS was pretty much taken by either people who needed the elective, or by management types.
  • Why is it that people in the computer industry ask this question so often? Try it in some other field:

    Student: "I want to work with cars. Should I go to school and become a mechanical engineer, or should I just go to trade school and become a mechanic?"
    Employer: "Go to trade school and become a mechanic-- you'll bre able to work with cars, and you won't have to bother with all those messy engineering classes "

    If you wanna build cars, become an engineer. If you wanna fix cars, become a mechanic...
  • While calculus doesn't really relate to anything found in the typical computer programmer's daily doings, the underlying concepts of Linear Algebra and Abstract Algebra really do relate quite a bit. Discrete Math is also fairly useful.

    Unfortunately, it seems like calculus is a typical requirement for CS, but they aren't willing to go far enough to actually require anything that matters (though really, I don't think calculus would necessarily have to be a prerequisite for any higher math -- but it seems like it always is).

    True, for most programmers, the actual numbers don't matter that much. Just the way things interact with each other. So set theory is very important, but doing integrals is most certainly not.

  • I regret not going into CS. CIS didn't teach the really hard core programming that I now want and need. I'm now teaching myself about algorithms, compilers, OS's, theory, etc, because I didn't get it in CIS.

    Be careful, it's much more difficult to stumble through all this on your own than to follow a curriculum that has been long established by a good school.

    Misfit
  • Nearly 20 years ago, I was looking for a summer job before college. One place I called asked if I could write an MIS system. I misunderstood, thinking they meant "IMSAI", and showed up, resume in hand (not knowing any better :).

    Anyway, I was hired, and surprised to find them using Osbores, but I kept my mouth shut. Six months later, I finally asked what MIS meant.

    They all started laughing. "You wrote one, and now you want to know what one is?" :)

    Years later, before leaving law, I looked at an MBA. One of the prerequisite clases they insisted I'd have to take was "Introduction to MIS Systems." They didn't care that I'd written two in the last six months just because I needed them around my office . . . I didn't get that degree, and instead got a real one :)

    hawk, err, dochawk, oh, whatever. There's just two many letters after my name. Any more and I think I have to become a Jesuit . . . :)
  • > If I were to start over, I would take several classes in discrete logic
    > and automa theory, but otherwise pursue a business or liberal arts degree.

    Believe me, given the reasons you expressed, you *don't* want to sit
    through a business degree. The liberal arts, including math, would
    make much better choices.

    hawk
  • it also explains why He could make it in 6 days instead of 6 years :)
  • Just CS, actualy I major in Physics but did a lot of CS stuff. I don't know that you will see much pay difference between the two. But CS will probably make you a better programer. Which will in the long run make you more employable.

    And while you are at it take a class on Shakespear or history or whatever. There are too many 1 dimentional geeks out there!

    The cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.

  • Spend your time in college well. There'll be time enough to code.

    Yes, but you should be learning the underlying concepts, not just how to code. Without them, you'll be at a significant disadvantage when the time comes to actually do the coding. For that reason, I'd always recommend a CS degree. BTW, for us non-US types, what is CIS? What does it stand for?

  • Although there are a lot of cases where a MIS major from my school will get a job doing something else, these seem to be the two fields that most end up in. Some graduates seem limited to middle management because of their degree, or they get relegated to working with databases.

    Computer Science is definitely more of a problem solving course, and at most schools tends to have a major math slant to it. Several of my school's classes (at Iowa State University) that are labeled as CS classes are in fact discrete math. These classes, combined with linear algebra, are really useful for programming. There are also dedicated courses on data structures and algorithms.

    On the other hand, the MIS majors at my school take a mild C++ class, have few math requirements, and have to take COBOL. As a part of the business college, they also get mired in course like accounting.

    It's really a preference thing. If you like middle management and don't especially want to program a lot, go for MIS/CIS. Computer Science is excellent for programming, even though a lot of CS majors often take on organizational roles as well. A minor or double-major in Business would give you the best of both worlds.
  • It becomes a question of preference. I know very few MIS majors who went on to get to higher level management. I'd rather code than do middle management any day, but that's just me.
  • On the other hand, you can always double major in CS and CIS/MIS. It is essentially what I did, and I'm a more valuable person at my company in the end for it because I have all the business knowledge and I also have all the computer science knowledge.

    As a side note, I also had been programming for 10 years before I entered college and knew more than most of my professors, but that's besides the point.

    --

  • CIS does a lot of programming, too. I think the difference is, with CIS I can use a compiler and OS. With CIS I can build a compiler and OS, and probably have already done so for a term project. However, most companies will hire either, because there are _many_ CIS programs that are called CS programs
  • "I'm just about to enter my softmore year..."

    Christ almighty. How do these people survive high school, let alone pass the SAT and get through freshman English?

  • I've encountered the same problem myself.

    I'm 18, just graduated, and finished up my first semester of college. I too wondered whether I should pursue the CIS route of Networking or CS with more programming.

    Since I have previous vocational education in CIS from 11th and 12th grade I decided that route.

    CS as you mentioned, does seem to require a lot of math. I really dislike math. It's not that I find it hard, it's well... I'm lazy. I can't get myself interested in doing it. If you're not a big math fan I think you may want to veer away from CS. If you love math and programming, go for CS.

    As other posters have mentioned, CIS does mix mostly networking courses in with Accounting, Economics and other fun stuff. CS is a lot of math and programming languages. My advice would be to find a common ground for both courses.

    Locate classes that are required for both paths or can be used for credit. For instance, my CIS path requires I take a programming language. The programming language would ALSO get me credit for a CS path though. Take a programming course or two, a networking course and see what you like doing best. I get my kicks crawling around under desks troubleshooting hardware and network problems, but you may like banging out that last code revision at 4am better.

    Go with what you feel is the best for you. I think the CIS will definitely be easier, but if you want to really challenge yourself then go for CS.

  • Laugh seconded - you go to University to have a good time. If they give you a degree after three years, so much the better. But a hell of a lot less important than the degree is the fun you have getting it - the beer, the (wo)men, the people you meet, the whole experience.

    Btw, I haven't a clue wtf 'liberal arts' is. I did a BSc in Accounting and Financial Analysis - some hard core number crunching relating to stock market valuations, share price movements, company financial reports and the like. Most of which I haven't used since I left uni - but the experience of learning them is something I use every day, and the fun I had at the time is a source of joy to me now.

    At Uni, do what you are going to enjoy doing. Very few companies care which degree you have, as long as it isn't a bad one. So pick one you can have fun with, and concentrate on those ex-curricular activities.

    ~Cederic
  • In twenty-five years of software development from putting together payroll systems to putting GUIs on object models, I have yet to use any math more complicated than arithmetic. I can do Rheinmanninan manifolds and quaternion fractals and that's about as useful to me as tits on a bull (great scenery for a Quake Arena though.)

    Its more useful to be a non-linear thinker. Read books by Victor deBono and try to retain some originality despite what the system's about to do to you.
  • What business are you in?
  • > but real companies doing cool things do know the difference

    That's a bit of an oximoron there. "Real" companies are usually in the business of generating and especially maintaining wealth, not of creating "cool" products. You're more likely to be working on a "cool" product in a dot-com, and even more likely to not be doing it for very long. I know because I myself work for a "real" company, and there's nothing remotely cool to what we're doing.
  • You will find that many employers won't even know the difference between the two, or care. They just look for the words Computer and Bachellor in your degree, it's just a checklist item.

    That said, it depends entirely on how ambitious you are about programming and what you care about. While not all math will necessarily benefit you--differential equations will touch you extremely peripherally in most cases--some can be very useful. Linear algebra in particular will come in VERY handy if you ever get into graphics, both 2D and 3D. If you ever play with neural networks a good understanding of calculus won't do you any harm. On the other hand, if all you're planning to do is Perl scripts or GUI forms in VB (or, may I suggest, Delphi!), and you're quite certain that you won't be interested in anything else, forget the math.

  • Tell us what you think are cool things, and we'll tell you whether you're right .
  • The actual major is important for the immediate next job.
    After a few years it is mostly work experience and what you have learned since.
    The earlier stuff will be out of date.

  • If you'd read on, you'd see that I make that point - the degree is there to get your foot in the door. There's not a whole lot of variation in job applications from new grads - where you went to school probably counts as much, if not more, than whether your major was CS or CIS or ECE or some other variation.

    Your typical new grad's resume (3-4 years of summer jobs, and maybe an internship) isn't worthless - it's just not a major factor in the decision to interview or not interview. If you did some interesting work at some point, it might make you stand out from the crowd, but lack of cool summer job experiences or internships is not going to drop you out of the running.

  • It's not a matter of "cannot be taught or learned on the job", it's a matter of not knowing that reading a book at this point would be a really good idea.

    Not really - there are five levels of ignorance, IIRC. The most basic one is not knowing that you don't know something. It's fairly easy to get past that and get into the "knowing that you don't know something" level. At that point, you should at least realize that you can ask questions, look for literature (in print and on the web), etc. and determine what it is that you need to know, and where you can learn it.

    Folks in all fields do this all the time; I do it every time I encounter a new technology. These days, in particular, with the number of helpful folks on the net, it's particularly easy to get past being completely ignorant and arrive at the point where you can start educating yourself.

  • It seems like that you are interested in taking the CIS/MIS route. As someone who barely made his way through the prerequisite Calculus/Linear Algebra/Discrete Math/Differential Equations, I can sympathize with your apprehension to take those courses. I had to retake Multivariable Calculus twice. My concern is not your lack of interest in Math. It is your attitude of just doing enough to get by. No matter what route you take in school or life, you should strive to be the best in your field. Even if you don't end up being the best, you will still be much higher than most others. I learned this the hard way after flunking out of school three years ago. My advice to you is this. The most important skill you can have comes in the ability to deal with other human beings. Nothing we do is in isolation. Good luck with your decision.
  • Especially since I've never used anything beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division since I'd left college. All that calculus I took was a waste.

    Learning calc was painful (when I went to RPI, they required Calc 1,2,3, and Physics 1,2,3 for CS majors, in addition to three more science classes and two more math classes), but it teaches problem solving. Most calc (and math problems in the sciences) involves ways of reorganizing problems to make them solvable in discrete chunks. Sounds a lot like breaking down a problem to implement a large-scale software project, eh?

    In fact, even if you're not doing software, you get a lot out of calc. Learning how to think and solve problems is 9/10 of most jobs.

    -jon

  • No...real men make themselves into whatever they want to be regardless of any degree they hold if any. I have met some programmers with MIS backgrounds that blews some CS majors away, although it's often vice-versa....and then I have seen people who don't have ANY degree blow away some pretty good CS majors. My point is this: Make yourself....your degree won't do that for you.
  • Or you could bump yourself up by another factor of 10 and take physics. Or you could reduce yourself by a factor of 1000 and take chemistry :)
  • Isn't computational physics a part of theoretical physics? It's just as valid a method of investigation as physical experiments (sometimes better). Perhaps your department chair depends on $$$ for physical experiments (i.e. particle accelerator) and wants to hear no talk of "computational physics".
  • As someone who changed careers with a Master's in IS, I have very little regard for the degree. (Of course, it got me in the door in my new job, but I had a LOT to learn on my own when I got there. I still do.)

    While systems analysis and design are crucial skills, they are NOT going to be utilized by people just coming out of school with their Bachelor's degrees. IS should be aimed at experienced CS and BS(business) graduates as a career development step. Instead, it seems to be treated as 'CS lite' and targeted toward lazy CS-inclined students as a moneymaker for universities.
  • If you're born to hack, then follow the path that seems best to you. I don't know many true hackers that like taking the easy way out. If you were planning a CS degree just because you think that's where the money is, do all the real CS's out there a favor and go take up archaeology or something.

    If your goal is to educate yourself the way you think best by taking whatever path is open to you, then who cares what they call it? Let them call it whatever they want. I was told from the time I was about 10 years old that I'd "go to school for computers". Sure enough, I did. Of course, I also invented a new major (combining sociology and computers) along the way. The simple fact is that I care what I learned, not what they call it. I explain it to people in terms that make sense to me, I don't just say "Oh, I have a CS/SST degree" and let them lump me in with everybody else who has those initials. Many's the time I got into arguments with my "classmates" over the appropriate courses to take. "It's spring semester of our sophomore year, who do you have for database 101?" Well, I'm not taking that course. "What? All sophomore CS's take database 101 during spring semester! What did you take instead?" Shakespearean Tragedy. "WHAT? What kind of freak are you?"

    The argument about whether true hackers need to get a college degree at all is a popular debate. Personally, I think they do. Not because it proves anything about their skills, but because among other things it proves responsibility, that you can start something and finish it because you see the longterm benefit even if you don't like it. But along your path to that degree, do whatever you please. Fill up your time with everything you can get your hands on. I used to cruise the bookstore at the start of each semester and buy books from classes I wasn't taking, because they looked interesting. Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut was the book that made me take up a sociology major. You never know what you'll find of value. You've still got time. Start blazing your own trail.

    Duane

  • Wow. Hostile. I never said half the things you accuse me of. The original post started by saying that he can pursue degree A or B for what looks like the same pay, ultimately. This is what I was addressing. I pointed out that you should start by figuring out what it is you love, and then do that, and that if you are *just* doing CS because of the money, then please get out and let those of us that are doing it because we love it have the jobs. No where did I say that making money was a bad thing. I like the fact that I make money. But it's a coincidence. I am one of the lucky ones that can make money doing what I would naturally have done anyway.

    I'm sorry that your college experience was ridiculously easy. All that says to me is that you went to the wrong school. That's not the fault of school in general, some are just better than others. I don't know your situation at all, so I have no idea if you could have transferred elsewhere upon realizing that it was too easy for you, but I assume you didn't do that.

    Sorry you felt insulted, that wasn't the intent. Apparently you've never actually seen me insult somebody, I tend to make it fairly obvious.

    d

  • To get Laid!

    Sadly, it hasn't been working at all :(
  • Before going to college, I had excellent computer skills. (Actually, they atrophied a bit during the college experiece, although the early Internet exposure was invaluable to me later.) I went with the conventional wisdom "CS is for real computer people, and CIS is a cop-out".

    However, 10 credit hours of a foreign language, and absurd math classes (with non-English native speakers) changed my mind after two years. I thought I was taking the easy road when I switched to MIS.

    It may have been. But looking back, it was the best decision I made. I learned the skills I *didn't* have -- business skills and business speak. And the ability to become and entrepreneur. Even a (giggle) management class!

    I left college with a degree in MIS with a minor in CS. (I didn't have to take any of the weaker MIS computer classes, luckily.) For some, this path might even be ideal.

    About the original question, did my employer care about MIS vs CS (or in my case, MIS with a minor in CS)? Not at all. All they wanted to see was a degree. The only relevence that CS vs CIS had in the workplace was my background going into it. For me, CIS was the better choice.

    For a future Systems Administrator, CIS may be far better because they only offered 1 credit hour in UNIX under the CS degree. And the business skills are very valuable when dealing with the non-technical components that an SA has to do.

  • It is this exact attitude which is destroying our educational standards and our educational institutions.

    A school is only as good a its students and when the students are not there to learn then that school becomes little more than a diploma mill.

    Why it is that so many people seem content to pay money to a school and get nothing more out of it than a piece of paper is something I'll never truly understand. I think the reason is that knowledge is not prestigeous in our culture, whereas possessions and money are. So instead of having an educated populace, we have a nation of ignoramuses. People who know nothing more than the absolute minimun necessary to sucker an employer into giving them a job that will allow them to buy the consumer items their self esteem is so dependent on.

    But guess what, the leaders and visionaries of this world will not be found among those who don't know and don't care. Putting appearence before substance where a person's education is concerned is a guarantee of mediocrity at best and utter incompetence at worst.

    Some people are here to learn and to know and their lives are a testament to this. When they study something it is so that they may understand it and be able to make use of it in achieving their goals, which are not small. Some have had a huge impact upon this world. They are the ones who shed new light upon things and create new ways of doing things that improve the lives of us all. The impact of their lives upon the world is difficult to calculate, whereas the impact of the typical know-nothing's life can be found in the nearest landfill.

    So I ask you, which would you rather be in life: A winner or a well paid loser?

    Lee Reynolds
  • The difference between CS and CIS, in my experience as a CS major, has been that CS folk learn why things are the way they are, CIS folk learn how to use them. This yields two very different career tracks (though they may start out at the same place). The CS folks will have the basic understanding of computers that will allow them to advance through different fields of CS and not get stuck in a rut. The CIS folks, however, will need to be constantly retrained (more than CS folk) to learn how to use the new stuff, so getting stuck writing Program X on Platform Y is common.

    So, my advice would be to go CS if you commonly ask "Why?". If you couldn't care less and just want to use the darn stuff, go CIS.

    Hope that helps.
  • Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?

    Everything else being equal, whichever candidate was best able to answer the technical interview questions.

    True, but that only applies once the candidate has made it past the resume screening stage...

    Until you've actually got your foot in the door (i.e. scored an interview), then it's your resume working for you, and if you're fresh out of school then your degree is going to be a pretty major part of that (other than any summer work experience).
  • That may be true right now, but...

    a) It appears we may be heading into recession

    b) No (job) market imbalance lasts forever

    Just because it's a great time for a programmer to look for a job right now, doesn't mean it'll still be so great next year, or when someone now entering college is graduating.
  • So you don't want to work for anyone who won't hire you? :)

    The thing is though, that you want to be in the position of rejecting job offers, not having them reject you. There may be reasons (such as a good salary, interesting work, or no other offers!) that you'd still like to work for some company who (whether correctly or not) you view as unenlightened.

    In the same vein, you should never "throw" an interview or declare your disinterest on the spot... Always try your best to get the offer, then decide with a cool head whether or not you want to accept it.

  • If your question is "Can I make decent money at a decent job with a CIS degreee?", the answer is yes.

    But why are you in college? What do you want long-term? CS is a much better theoretical background in computers. Some people believe that CIS/MSI/IN degrees are better for working professionals. Do either of these statements make you feel one way or another?

    I did NOT choose my major on the basis of a career. I majored, in fact, in English and History. I now have a good senior software engineering job, and I got into grad school without any hassle. Even if I had found myself careerless, I don't think I'd regret the choice I made.

    If you just want to get a decent job, CS is probably a ludicrous choice. And don't discount CIS/MIS as moron domains. I know some really bright people who find academic CS distasteful and/or dated, and went CIS; I've also known horseshit programmers who love to talk about how great they are for going CS (CS majors have a tendency towards an ever-so-slight bias). Good companies typically hire people, not degrees.

    So what to do? Do what you love. Find something, anything, that makes your heart go thump, and grab on with both hands. Don't waste your precious time in college plotting to make money, unless money is something you love (if so, get an MBA in finance or go entrepreneur). You'll know you are there when you find yourself taking tougher courses with tougher profs, ignoring grades, and talking excitedly to people about your subject, despite their glazed eyes.
  • ...where to go after programming.

    what do you mean where to go after programming? That would be death, right?

    Rader

  • At my school (Northwestern) the only difference between CS and CIS is that CS is in the engineering school and CIS is in the College of Arts And Science. Basically, if you wanted a double in chem or philosophy (I'm going for CIS + Philos) then you would do CIS, and if you wanted a double with Computer engineering or Chemcial engineering you'd go for CS. If you didn't want a double major, you'd have to choose between the moronic engineering base courses or the equally bad but slightly more balanced A&S base courses. The requirements for the major itself are literally identical. Then again, YMMV.

  • Bump yourself up by another factor of 10 and go into engineering...Electrical, Mechanical, Aerospace.

    Nearly all of those programs will make you do programming, plus you'll get deep immersion into statics and dynamics

    But how much compiler theory, or algorithm analysis, will you get? You'll get some programming, but not Real Computer Science. Yes, most engineers (and physicists) can program, probably better than MIS/CIS majors, but it's rare for them to hit the level of true coding craftsmanship. (Of course, that may be because they're crippled by having to learn FORTRAN. B-) )

    Now, taking some classes in engineering or physics on top of a CS degree is good exercise for the mind. I actually tried to do a double degree in CS and physics, until my junior year when I was taking operating systems (which in addition to the theory, had us writing device drivers and process schedulers) and theoretical mechanics (where I suddenly found that I did not have the grasp on differental equations I needed) at the same time. My brain melted and poured out my ears, and I decided that this was no longer fun.

    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/

  • I'd argue in a heartbeat that the EE or ECE doing heavy DSP or embedded microcontroller work is doing much more advanced work than the CS major working on his PC;while the length of the code may be smaller, it requires a more indepth knoweldge of the hardware that you're working on
    A fair point. though I'd dispute that it's more advanced. I guess it's like arguing which is a greater feat of mechanical engineering, a fine spring-driven pocketwatch or a massive suspension bridge. As you say, different goals and methods.

    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/

  • What percentage of people actually need to know how the compiler optimizes? I mean really indepth.

    I hate to say this, but your question proves my point. I mention complier theory, and the best match you can make from your "picked-it-up-on-my-own" background is "how the compiler optimizes". I don't mean this at all as flamebait, but if that's all you know of the topic you're missing a lot.

    Compiler theory is about if and how a language - any set of strings of characters - can be parsed and translated. It's where grammars and automata and the ability to express information converge. It's deep and beautiful mathematical concepts, the study of which improves the mind every bit as much as the study of philosophy or literature. (Though I would argue that philosophy or literature are easier to study on one's own that this sort of math.) It also, of course, has enourmous practical impact on the design of programming languages, which in turn affects the kind and quality of software we create.

    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/

  • A degree in a very theoretical course such as math/physics tends to make the harder CS material a tad easier to absorb
    Sure, and I'd even assert vice-versa; if I had to, I could probably pick up a significant amount of, say, number theory, based on my foundation of CS and physics.

    But you're definitely stepping into a classroom to get that math degree. I don't think many people just out of high school, or people who majored in "computers for MBA-wannabes", no matter how intelligent, could pick that sort of stuff up on their own.

    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/

  • I disagree, I find it much easier, more rewarding, and more FUN to do it on your own than following a cirriculum.

    If you can learn about things like complexity theory and compiler construction on your own - I don't mean how to use lex and yacc, I mean if you can pick up the Dragon Book and understand it without stepping into a classroom - then you're a supergenius, and you might as well go to school and get a diploma to increase your marketability. (Hell, get two or three if you're that smart.) It'll be no sweat for you, and a good investment of some money (the un-degreed seem to hit a definite ceiling).

    If all you want to learn is how to program in C or Perl or whatever language is popular this month, you can probably pick it up on your own. Sure, you'll develop all sorts of bad habits and write crappy code, but you can get a job. Someone will come along behind you and clean up your messes. Or not, but you'll still get paid.

    But if you're not a supergenius, and you'd like to really understand how things work and be able to craft truly fine code - to be more than just a code monkey, but a real artisan - there's no substitute for a few years of studying CS.

    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/

  • The programming is different, but it's certainly as valid. I'd argue in a heartbeat that the EE or ECE doing heavy DSP or embedded microcontroller work is doing much more advanced work than the CS major working on his PC; while the length of the code may be smaller, it requires a more indepth knoweldge of the hardware that you're working on (considering more often than not, you built it).

    It's true, clean, ultimate, complicated, advanced programming either way, but the goals and methods are different.

    (The following is added as per full disclosure of the factors that influence my point of view) As a student painfully close to the end of the college decision process (sigh, where have the years gone?) I'm planning on becoming an EE.

  • All the EEs in the house so hooo!
  • i assume u mean Info Sys when u say CIS... if so, most CS majors take jobs programming right? and a CIS major would more likely know how to program but spend most of his time uh... doing network based stuff. u can do perl or shell hacks but you spend more time keeping the data flowing... right? or am i just wrong too. CS is much more math and theoretical crap, u spend your life with a compiler... (oh yes stereotypes.)-n-rs-
  • I am a CS major at the University of Oklahoma. I am not sure which career fair you are referring to, but there was a campus wide fair (which I did not attend) and an engineering fair (which I did attend). The engineering career fair was held in the OMU ballroom and was completely packed. It would be understandable if companies at the main fair were not looking for CS/CE as both are engineering majors, and the companies were probably waiting until the engineering fair to meet those majors.

    As a side note, if you want to check out the different course requirements for CS and MIS majors at OU, check out these PDFs:

    MIS Course Requirements [ou.edu]

    CS Course Requirements [ou.edu]

    As one of my instructors once joked, "We write the software for MIS majors to use."

    ---

  • I recently landed a programming position and I'm not even done with my AS yet, let alone near transferring to a real 4-year.

    CIS? Aha, that's nice. CS? I see. That's great. WHERE'S YOUR PORTFOLIO.

    Know why I got in? I had the portfolio. College is not enough to get you a good job with certain employers - they want to see demonstrated ability; a piece of college stationery saying you have a degree is nice, but not enough of a reason to say yes or no. I'm still in college, but taking it nice and slow. I'm not about to leave a job that pays as much as mine does to be a poor college puke for two years, but I'm continuing my education anyway because I might not always want to work at my present company.

  • No - just that which degree you have (CS vs. CIS vs. ECE) doesn't neccesarily mean a lot to a prospective employer. The fact that you finished school in a technical field related to computers is often enough to get you into an interview.

    My employer does not hire engineers with CIS degreees. I doubt any major employer does.

    Like what? Please explain. I've yet to encounter anything that cannot be taught or learned on the job, or picked up "on the side" while working.

    Show me a CIS major who could validate the cache consistency unit of a superscalar microprocessor. This is the realm of CS and ECE, and a CIS major could not receive on the job training to understand the concepts involved.

  • CS is for people who create computers (and components such as system software). They are the real engineers behind the whole thing.

    CIS is for people who merely use computers: system admin's, web designers, network people, etc.
  • Or literature. Or biology. Or math. It really doesn't matter, because education is for learning how to learn and apply knowledge, and gain a work ethic - not for technical skills, which may be irrelevant in 2 years let alone 10. Most of the low-level coding jobs ask for 1 or 2 years of experience "in the industry" and a CS "or related" degree. Translation: do your time in QA reporting bugs, and then graduate upward. Not that QA/QE departments aren't technically challenging (some of our best coders are in QE, designing test suites), but those departments tend to have a high turnover, and that's where you're most likely to find work.

    I was a psychology major, so I didn't even hit the "or related" part of the job requirements. I got into QA because when they interviewed me I knew the current tech, backwards and forwards. They saw I was smart and worked hard, and 4 years/2 department changes later, I'm now where I want to be, designing and implementing parts of the application server that drives our company.

    The interviewers for good companies will be able to tell if you're technically skilled. They will want to know that you went to college, and they may care if you graduated or where you graduated from, but that's about it.
    --

  • Are you in school to get a degree or an education? (Other purposes will be disregarded here). If you are trying to educate yourself, then isn't it your responsibility to challenge yourself as much as possible, to best have something to show for this outlay of time and money? If you just want the degree, follow the path of least resistance and get out of everybody else's way.
  • http://cob.isu.edu/parkerkr/is_vs_cs.htm [isu.edu]

    It made me feel a little better about my CIS degree.

  • Maybe they prefer CS for administrative jobs because it shows people can stick to their jobs and hang in there when the going gets rough, and not just "flunk" out to an easier course of action (or course, in this case: CIS/MIS)

  • It's hard to tell. But in college, you should get perhaps 2/3 theory and 1/3 immediately useful knowledge. You need the latter to get a job right out of school, but you need the former so you have a base to keep learning. The immediately useful knowledge (such as network administration) loses its value very rapidly. The theory decays at about 1/10 that rate.

    Me? BSEE/CS (Case), MSCS (Stanford). I have lots of theory, some of it useful. Way too much automata theory, which is almost totally useless. Too much expert systems/logic type AI, because I went through Stanford at the height of the AI boom. Not enough number-crunching, which was out of fashion in the mid-80s, before graphics really got going. Formal methods and mathematical logic I used extensively in the 1980s, but use little today. It's hard to guess which theory will be useful.

    On the math front, if you get linear math through differential equations and logic through simple proofs of correctness, you probably have enough to work through any area of theory you have to face later in life.

    Some exposure to aesthetics of design and to the basics of how business works can be a big help.

    If you're going to go the CIS route, take more business courses, because that route leads to operational management. CS leads to R&D.

  • ...then go with it. I'm double majoring in Information Systems and Technology (equivalent with CIS, but seems there's less business) and Biology. I had no problem finding a very nice internship after my freshman year (making $14/hr fulltime and a nice appartment paid for) doing what I wanted to to. At the same time, my friends in CS didn't get a real (decent pay to code) internship until sophmore or junior years, and were stuck doing tech support and really lame sysadmin stuff for a summer or two.

    I'm not saying that it's simply because I'm in IS&T, rather that it doesn't matter all that much. If you can rationalize being in the CIS program to yourself, you should be able rationalize to your potential employer why you're in/completed that program. If you can show how it is something valuable, who cares if you've taken DifEq or another 3 semesters of Calc?

    To clarify: At my school, IS&T is very similar to CS (same department), but less math, and a little more breathing room for what to take. There are some pretty easy classes that are required, but when it gets into the electives, I can choose whether or not to take the advanced CS classes, whereas in CS it's much more ridged.

  • Bump yourself up by another factor of 10 and go into engineering...Electrical, Mechanical, Aerospace.

    Nearly all of those programs will make you do programming, plus you'll get deep immersion into statics and dynamics -- the whole reason you had to learn calculus.

    It'll be hard, but worth more in the long run.


  • If you want to become a professional programmer, you're going to program for a considerable period of time.

    Unless you really want to learn the details of computing and the subject itself jazzes you, just take a few CS courses, do an internship and study something else that *really* interests you...physics or history or philosophy or music

    Spend your time in college well. There'll be time enough to code.
  • Much of what you learn does not expire in 3 years.

    I got my CS degree after working for over 13 years. I learned the name of things that I had done for years; I found out that there are 5 steps to normalization, not look at it and it pops into your head.

    In school, you are supposed to learn theory and technique. Languages change, hardware change, OSs change -- the basics do not change. When I was president of a DPMA chapter, we had a monthly argument on mainframe v. micro. It's the same -- just micro people tend to be sloppier.

  • I usually don't flame, but this may be the least intelligent post I've read in a long time (yes, I browse at +2).

    Unless you really want to learn the details of computing and the subject itself jazzes you
    Ummmm...wouldn't any good programmer fit this definition?

    just take a few CS courses, do an internship and study something else that *really* interests you...physics or history or philosophy or music
    Employers generally want to see some sort of experience and/or education on your resume before they hire you as a programmer. Sure, you could program a bunch of impressive apps on your own in lieu of actual CS coursework.... but you'd still be at a disadvantage (in the employer's eye) when compared to anyone with an actual CS education.

    So why not just study CS anyway? You'll be much better equipped solve all kinds of programming problems, and it will look good on your resume.

    Spend your time in college well. There'll be time enough to code.
    And what could be better than programming? Well... I can think of a couple things, but there's still time for drinking and girls (or whatever sex you prefer) if you're a CS major... jeez....Mmm. Girls.


    http://www.bootyproject.org [bootyproject.org]
  • ...I don't think the Calculus is going to make me a better programmer or help me develop better algorythms...

    Math is useful in that it teaches you logical and analytical problem solving skills, which are a must in (most) programming jobs. I agree most of the specific items taught in the math classes will not be used, but, as they say, math doesn't teach you what to think, it teaches you how to think.

    -----
  • Don't make the mistake of thinking knowing a little HTML and how to use a database is all you ever need to know. In fact since the web really took off I've seen decline in talented engineers who understand all there is to know about building complex software. Many are distracted by the short term demand for HTML-based websites and never get to the more complex aspects of software.

    Keep in mind not all software programs are math based, some are engineering based and focus on broader engineering knowledge rather than pure math that some prefer. If you really want to have fun, major in software and minor in hardware then you will know exactly how these amazing machines work down to the logic gates inside the chips - some schools call this a computer engineering degree.

  • Agreed.

    I'm just beginning grad school, and people seem not to understand why, especially in the field of Instructional Psychology and Technology. "What can you do with that?" is what I often hear.

    Well, I'm not in it for the money, I'm here to learn a field that interests me. Heaven forbid that a four-year university would serve for little more than just a certification process. Sadly, that's the attitude I came in with, but I learned in the last four years that school is for more than that.

    What's really sad, is that the people who go all four years trying to do/learn as little as possible to get the desired grade, and then their "paper", degrade the value of that degree.

    The benefit of a degree is not that it brings you more money, but that it shows, or at least should show, that you have completed a more-or-less "universal" (hence, "university") education. You should know your field /and/ some litt, art, etc. (That's the General Education), making you a well-rounded individual who can adapt to situation better than one who has not taken the time to study.

    Disclaimer: Some of the brightest people I know do not have degrees, but they have studied on their own.

    So, to answer the question, and to not be moderated as off-topic :), which field most interests you? If it's CS, do it. It may be the path of most resistance, but things worth doing are seldom easy.
  • As one who's done both and then dropped out, here's my take on it:

    I think a lot of people don't know exactly what CS is. Most of the IT world I think is closer related to CIS and engineering because there is very little science involved. Here's the way I look at it:

    If you want to do all the scary shit, like coming up with new algorithms nobody's ever seen before, building wickedly cool new graphics engines nobody's ever seen before, coming up with some powerful new AI that nobody's ever seen before, developing funky modifications to systems that NASA might need to use in space, etc, definitely go for the CS degree and learn all you can and more. Also, if you like spending a lot of time doing research on minute detail things for computers (like algorithm performance evaluation, etc) and spending time in a lab, then CS is where you want to be. Don't expect to get paid much but you can get access to some pretty heavy resources doing this kind of thing.

    If you're in it for the money, and you mainly want to do systems related work (sys admin, network admin, etc) then go CIS because you don't really need a lot of math and hardcore science skills for this stuff, and you'll still get all the programming classes. You will use some science skills analyzing and solving problems, but no the hardcore research stuff.

    If you want to do more programming developing software, then find a school with a good Software Engineering degree and do that. This is what I should have done, but by the time I figured out this is what I wanted to do, I had been in school four years and my school didn't have an SE program.

    My background if your interested: I started at one school in CS, went through all the math, got a job, dropped out my senior year finally after realizing I was making more than most graduates. I actually had the job all through college and only started questioning why I really needed to be in school the last couple years. So I dropped out, enrolled in distance ed (still slowly aiming for a degree to please my father) CIS program, and I still make more than most graduates my age because I've got about 5 years experience in software engineering, including OO architecture and design. I continously train myself by attending study groups, reading books on design philophy, project methodology, etc.
  • At the risk of admitting that I'm also an Olde Farte (and worse, a hair-shirt electrical engineer, ca. 1980), I have to agree with Anonymous Coward. There is no substitute for understanding at-depth. I really believe that students of the current generation are at a disadvantage compared to the bad old days. With the current complex CPU architectures and compiler/interpreter/hybrid language implementations, students aren't able to get much experience at the bare-metal, stacks-and-registers, bytes-and-words, cycles-and-buses level. I know this sounds like one of those "I used to walk to school ten miles barefoot in the snow" stories, but I think that we learned a great deal about computing architectures and the implementations of high-level languages when we assembled hot-patches in our heads and "deposited" code directly into program memory. (I won't lament the passage of "BFA" FORTRAN programs with mondo EQUIVALENCE and COMMON blocks, however. That's too much nostalgia; I'm not that hard a case.) The same thing applies at the application language level. Java is a fine example. The (sort of) good news is that its possible for a slasher to write a more-or-less serviceable Java application after reading the first 30 pages of a book purchased at the mall. The bad news is that he/she then believes themselves to be a programmer, and hires out as same. The trouble comes when the next application is non-trivial - contains a search, or a sort, or (heaven forfend) some numerical work. The world is littered with this sort of wreckage. What (it seems to me) this means to contemporary students is that they have to try harder than my generation did to get exposed to the bare-metal basics of computing - hardware architectures, language implementations, analysis of algorithms and the like. To return to A.C.'s point, its the deep understanding of the principles, and not mere proficiency in the language du jour, that will build a durable career. So, kids, stay in school, and quit bitching about freshman calculus. A proper computer scientist has got to swallow a little abstract algebra and lot of graph theory, and they're *much* worse...
  • Yep, totally agree. You're going to study those books. If you don't like them, you won't study them. I'm belgian and engineer in computer sciences. We have LOTS of math and not that much compuer sciences. I was good at computer before entering university so what I leraned most is the theory. It helped me a lot in bringing together all the little pieces of information I knew. Math are useless in e-commerce. That's for sure. But 1) math gives you a way of thinking which is usefull in many situations, 2) math is important in many areas of coding (3D engines, physics, image analysis, etc...)
  • Sure the calculus stuff may be a pain in the ass ... If you can't make it through a CS degree, then I'd question if you've really got what it takes to be a programmer unless you're just shooting to do business programming.

    <RANT>Calculus?! You know how much calculus I've used since I got my degrees in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science? Zero. Frankly, if all someone wants to do is be a programmer, I question whether college is even necessary. It might get you your first job if you have nothing else to point to, but I'd hire someone who could show me a skillfully-rendered application that s/he wrote, degree or no. At least 75% of college is useless as far as contributing to later work. That tripe about forcing you to take general-ed classes in order to produce a more well-rounded individual is just their way of getting bodies into those departments so that they don't shrink to nothing. College is a racket. </RANT>

    By the way, calculus was a pain. It was only years later that I discovered that it was my teachers, not me or the material. If you really want to understand calculus, get a book, Calculus Made Easy, by Silvanus P. Thompson. It was written in the early 1900s and has been republished in recent years. It was thru reading this book that the scales finally fell from my eyes.

  • The first thing to do is take a look at the course for the two and see which ones seem most interesting to you. Then take a look at some job listings, choose a few that seem interesting to you and see which degrees they require. I have never seen a job listing that asked for a CIS degree that wouldn't accept a CS degree. But I have seen many interesting job postings that required a CS degree and would reject a CIS degree. BTW, I don't have any degree and I'm not having trouble finding work. But I think I was lucky to begin with (it's easy to find work when you have experience, but hard to get experience without a degree). In general a CIS course will teach you how do use something (database, OS, language, etc.) A CS couuse will teach you how to create that something.
  • Remember also that you're going to be competing for jobs with others who will have CS degrees. Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?

    It's a good job not EVERYONE thinks like that. One of the best software guys I know has an English degree. I personally did Systems Analysis (a BA - not a BSc), yet I applied for and got a good software development job. If that's the criterion for hiring (CS vs CIS) rather than what the person can really offer, then you're doing me a favour by not hiring me anyway! I don't really want to work for an employer who is that narrow-minded. And on one job interview, where it became clear that the job was just yet another programming job with no human contact, I said as much! (I did end up working for that company, but I interviewed with a different department for a job I liked better)

    It's a good job my employer IS broad-minded, too. Surprisingly to my friends, the last thing I wanted to do was a straight CS degree. I detest calculus. I can't think of anything more stultifying. I wanted something broader. In my systems analysis degree, all the non technical stuff we did was actually very interesting. We had a broad range of subjects - from the hard-science end (yes, we had maths in our course) to other things like understanding system failures (by system, not meaning necessarily computer system, but any system - one of our case studies was TMI-2), all the way to industrial sociology. It was a very interesting degree, and I don't regret choosing it over a straight CS degree for one picosecond.

  • I would say you are probably right about getting hired for the same possitions at the same salary. I think where the difference will come in is what you do after that. If at your school the comp sci degree is 10 times harder, it may be a 10 times better program. Therefore enabling you to advance into better programming jobs. If want to head for tech management, then get the CIS degree and schmooze when you get hired.

  • Do I ever disagree. A lot of places only want to hire someone with experience or are reluctant to hire someone without experience. Then throw on there that some companies have mandatory pay scale differences based on degree and they won't want to hire a masters without any experience

  • As an IT director who hires people for these positions, I can tell you that the degree you have is only a ticket to get you an interview. The same goes for any type of certification. However, if you came to that interview and I was able to discern that the only reason you were a CS major was because you thought it would get you a high paying job, you wouldn't stand a chance.

    Why? Because working in the IT field is very rewarding and challenging for those of us who love it. Those who don't love it are usually mediocre at best, even if they are very bright. My staff includes a PhD in Biology, an Immunologist and a Chemist, none of whom have CS or CIS degrees. They are major league geeks though, and they are the stars of my department. They all were spending their free time working on computers all night for the fun of it and decided to try it as a career. They are all very successful because of the fact that they love what they do.

    The take-home lesson is this: Do what you love. Work hard every day at something you love and every day will be challenging and fun. Success will follow.

    Next point: if you really love computers and want to understand them, you don't want to change to CIS. You should cherish the opportunity you have to explore your interests and learn while in college. The opportunities will be much fewer and much farther between when you move into the workplace. You should not only be taking courses designed to get you a job, but learning about a wide variety of things to expand your mind. Take philosophy, astronomy, physics, music... College is not a vocational training school, it helps you to learn how to think and communicate as much as it teaches a set of facts and specific skills. Don't waste this time! You won't get another chance like this again in your life. Once you become a real grown-up, with a job, family and mortgage, you won't be spending nearly as much time indulging your interests.

  • I think that the former Atari developper Dave Small is the one that summed this the best, in one of his columns:

    Whatever degree you bring with you at a job interview means you have some working knowledge of what the job is about. It basically implies that your schooling provides enough of a solid base to warrant investing the two to three years average it takes to properly develop raw abilties into exploitable working skills, no more but no less.

    I am quoting this off memory, so the words might not be exact, but the essence remains: a degree only means you have some faintest idea of what lies ahead and a certain minimal skill level worth investigating, that's all.


    --
  • This is very true, I don't know too many CS majors at my school that I would consider extreme hackers, wrt the number of actual CS majors. Most people will still go with the easy professors who always give A's, and run away from difficult professors that might teach them something useful whenever possible. After seeing this for years at my school, I would say that programmer != cs major.

    I goto Drexel which is just a factory of CIS people, and I am among the few CS majors trying to defend our turf at a school heralded for their IS department.

    At my school, the people who stand out are those who stick with Unix whenever possible, learn how terminals are the fastest way of getting real work done, learn an MUA, learn a newsreader, learn a real editor, and hack their brains off. I know two IS majors of this kind, and they are rare. Most other IS majors that I have seen spend most of their days learning current business practice, which unfortunately almost always include the evil MSFT. So they spend much of their day informing people how to avoid email viruses.

    Nowadays with products like cygwin, people on windows can enjoy the benefits of a terminal window (and get real work done fast), so the Unix reference above may be slightly dated, but I just plain hate windows.

    Many smart people in high school who like computers often start in CE. The pecking order afterwards is such that CE->CS->CIS->MIS->Bus driver. The fact that somebody rode the pecking order for a few levels doesn't mean they have no technical abilities, or can't program. If you are good in math, than most likely computer science is for you. You can delve into optimization or algorithm efficiency which is what a lot of software today requires in order to compete with the speed requirements the competition already has. Heavy algorithm analysis is really a math topic, some background in this will deem useful...remember that.

    Don't grab more than you chew, you'll save yourself some tuition money. My suggestion for people who are going into IS b/c of business, get out. Just become a real business major, and any up-to-date curriculum will include enough technology references to research the computer software for yourself. Many IS majors (at school that I know of...) spend most of their days aimlessly pointing, clicking, and righting tons of papers that even a bus driver could BS given enough time.

    In a nuts-hell, all the really good programmers who majored in IS and CS, were just smart people in the first place. They taught themselves everything technical and desirable, and the school part gave them the paper which got them invited to the interview.

  • CIS is different in a few ways (Score:3)

    by Leimy ( 6717 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @07:47AM (#1420159)
    CS people get all the math. Calc's and all.
    CIS people get mixed with Business and Accounting and Marketing and other stuff. At least I did.

    CIS people can generally take all the software engineering stuff that CS people get and can sometimes get into the architecture classes as well.

    I had no trouble getting hired with a CIS degree. I got a good understanding of business stuff like HR management and other work most CS people never see until the real world hits em in the face.

    Then again my math skills are less developed so you need to speak to an advisor most likely to get the best info...

    Either path is a good one.

  • But that's most engineering curriculums (Score:3)

    by swb ( 14022 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:33AM (#1420160)
    I was a computer science major at one time and I stopped because I knew that my education would be so focused I wouldn't get any of the mind-expansion that you'd normally get with a liberal arts degree. At my school the number of lib arts credits needed was something on the order of four courses, no foreign language and all the engineering students I knew did nothing but bitch about lib arts classes and spend all the rest of their time wading through non-linear algebra.

    When I look back 10 years to when I was in college, most of what I got out of it was intangible but the bits that have stuck with me more than anything else are the courses that actually broadened my horizons. None of them were engineering or math courses. I'd suggest that if you really want an education, get a liberal arts education. Engineering courses are about how to do a specific job so you can get that job, the curriculum has nothing to do with expanding your mind.

  • A riposte: Physics! (Score:3)

    by Tim C ( 15259 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:15AM (#1420161)
    Speaking from personal experience, I graduated from University with a degree in Physics, and within two weeks of starting to look for a job, had got one as a programmer with a web agency.

    That was just over 18 months ago, and in that time I've been promoted twice and have seen my salary more than double (and it didn't start off too badly, considering I had no relevant qualifications and very little experience).

    Physics has a very strong Mathematical aspect, without being totally incomprehensible to us mere mortals ( ;-) ), plus you necessarily develop problem solving abilities. In our course at least, there was also a compulsory computing laboratory in the first two years, and a couple of other computing-related courses (which all teach basic programming conecpts, plus enough of a language that you can apply them).

    Whatever you do decide to do, however, do it because you enjoy it, not because you hope that it'll take you into a career that pays shed-loads. It's better to be happy and comfortable, than rich and miserable (or so I'm told; I'm certainly not rich enough to know :-) )

    Cheers,

    Tim
  • ok right now cs and cis people are being hired for the same money, and that is because the market hasn't yet reached its satuation level. many people (myself included) think that the economy in its current state is inflated, and it's due for a down turn.

    when the down turn, and possibly a recession, happens the saturation level for the market will decrease. at this point layoffs will occur. now do you think they are going to layoff the people with more education?

    the computer science education isn't just more math-they are teaching you how to solve problems logically. the math is a tool. in your job you will be posed with many problems, and your education should prepare you to solve them.



    use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that

  • Re:Well... (Score:3)

    by jmccay ( 70985 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:23AM (#1420163) Journal
    I think it depends on the school that is being attended. Some schools are better.
    I have found that CIS degrees tend to be more cookie cutter oriented. They tend to teach how to do the job on a particular system with one, and maybe more, tools. CIS tends to be lacking in real hardcore programming and problem solving. CIS degrees tend to focus on the system and how use/run it.
    A CS oriented degree tends to be more abstract. When it is done abstract, you can migrate from tool to tool and langauge to language with little difficulties. CS tends to develope better logical thinking and problem solving (because of all the math).
    I would personally recomend aiming towards the CS degree. It prove better for you in the long run. I went to a liberal arts school and got my CS/Mathematics degree, and I have found I have been able to solve problems quicker than the poeple who didn't. You can always take some CIS courses.
    In the end, what matters is what you can prove you can do. Work on Open Source projects to get your name out there, and get internships. You want to start building examples of what you can do to fill your resume.

  • A matter of respect (Score:3)

    by mmmmbeer ( 107215 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:23AM (#1420164)
    You say you have heard from others that you should get the CIS degree, because they say you can get the same job? The people who told you this probably have CIS degrees. I say this because someone with a CS degree wouldn't likely agree.

    Although you can get the same jobs - I work with programmers who got business degrees - you will never be viewed the same way as those with a CS degree. You will have a harder time getting a particular job, especially if you compete with those who have an Engineering degree. The difference in degrees can certainly be made up through experience, but that basically places you a year or more behind where you would be if you had a CS degree.

    Another major issue, something many of us value above money, is peer respect. You will have a much harder time earning the respect of your peers if you have the lesser degree. When I was in Engineering college, we refered to the business CIS people as "dropouts". In many cases, this was true - lots of them had been in Engineering at first. The CS degree is harder for a reason. Partly, because you learn more, but also, it tests your mettle, and your future coworkers will think more of you if you make it through the tougher program. Furthermore, it shows that you are truly interested in the knowledge, and that will definitely count among others who feel that way.

  • kuro5hin (Score:3)

    by Lord Omlette ( 124579 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @07:55AM (#1420165) Homepage
    A discussion similiar to this already occured on kuro5hin, link here [kuro5hin.org]. The outcome of the discussion, revealed during a discussion of possible New Year's resolutions, was that the kid would stick with a CS degree and try hella freaking hard to do it despite the math and hardship, etc. His reasoning escapes me though...

    I'm biased being a CS major. I really do get my jollies from reading obscure theory and coding useless stuff. CS = theory, CIS = practical. I figure if you know the theory, you'll be able to do the practical, you'll just have to spend that little extra time poring over manuals, HOWTOs, newsgroups, etc.
    --
    Peace,
    Lord Omlette
    ICQ# 77863057

  • Umm... (Score:3)

    by Fervent ( 178271 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:03AM (#1420166)
    Been in college two years, can't spell the word "sophomore"? Do we really want this kid to enter the workforce? :) (It's a joke.)

  • CS + CIS = CSIS (Score:3)

    by CritterNYC ( 190163 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:43AM (#1420167) Homepage
    I graduated Binghamton (a State Univeristy of New York school) in 96 with a BS in Computer Science and Information Systems. Computer Science Math was a seperate major and focused almost solely on Math. CSIS was heavier on the CS than the IS, but both were there. They actually phased out the CSMath major that year, since enrollment was down, and since the industry had been changing alot.

    Most of the CS stuff I learned at Binghamton hasn't been of any use to me in the real world. I've never needed to look back to my logic design courses or circuit stuff. Some of the IS stuff has been handy, like my database courses. Even some of the math stuff has served me well... like statistics.

    As far as what you should end up in... it kinda depends on what you want to do... and what is focused on in each degree at your school. If you're planning on going into web development or programming of some sort... as long as the CIS track has enough of that sort of thing (or enough electives to fit em in) go with that. If you want to go into hardware.... or teaching... or if your school only focuses on programming in the CS major... go with that.

  • dude... (Score:4)

    by Wakko Warner ( 324 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @01:04PM (#1420168) Homepage Journal
    ...if you think softmore year is difficult, just wait till you get to hardmore year.

    - A.P.

    --
    * CmdrTaco is an idiot.

  • Re:I'd rather hire a BA in history or indust-desig (Score:4)

    by SpinyNorman ( 33776 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @09:52AM (#1420169)
    Sure, you're not likely to use the math (or for that matter much from your CS degree!) directly, but a CS degree does nonethless teach you a valuable structured way of thinking, and encourage a disciplined approach. Certainly, the worst programmers - in terms of quality/maintainability of code - I've seen have been those without a CS background.

    Regardless of it's "practical" utility, though, a CS degree is going to be preferentially viewed by many screening resumes (incl. myself when I was in that role), and I think it's also resonable to say that if a CS degree (math included) is too tough for you, then it's an indication that you don't have the logical thought capabilities that you'll need to rely on as a programmer.

  • CS vs. CIS (Score:4)

    by jon_adair ( 142541 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @12:45PM (#1420170) Homepage

    I have a CS degree (plus a number of EE and CompE hardware classes and most of the coursework for a PhD in CS).

    In my paid work, I rarely use any of my coursework. Most of what I do could be done by any smart person with no degree at all. I work in sort of a traditional IS role, building stuff for the business world. Boring at times, but it pays the bills.

    Where would I get good use of a CS degree? I see two places: heavy software engineering methodology and heavy math. I did heavy math when I did cardiac MRI software at Siemens. I could do the same somewhere else doing machine learning stuff, 3D graphics, etc. Or I could go to a big company that follows formal SE methodologies.

    I work with some people with CIS/MIS degrees. They mainly stick to traditional IS stuff on IBM boxes. Some write code, some do business analysis crud.

    I think it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to live in a cube at a big company, CIS or MIS will be fine. CS would work there too, but if you learn the right stuff you should have the option to go do something more exciting. (A friend of mine from college, Greg Stelmack [redstorm.com], did this. He went from boring corporate stuff to working on games at Red Storm. It would have been hard to do this without a good math background.)

  • Re:Neither CS nor CIS: MATH (Score:4)

    by wmulvihillDxR ( 212915 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:09AM (#1420171) Homepage Journal
    I'm going to agree and disagree with this.

    While a lot of CS degrees do teach just programming languages and things that are going to be gone in a few years, there are CS degrees that will teach the fundamentals behind CS (which includes the math). If you learn those basics of CS (like the design of a programming language, the general structure of computer design, etc.), you will be able to learn whatever language is useful that day. And I bet that you would learn it faster than a CIS.

    I agree that Mathematics is important. It teaches you how to think logically. I used to program in HS and it took me awhile to work through the best implementation or best way to solve this little bug. Now, with a Math degree, those problems are easier! I mean, after all, CS IS MATH!

    I'll never forget what a very presitigous CS professor at CMU told me. I was going there to interview him about what CS is about. The first thing he told me is that Computer Science has NOTHING to do with computers. It is math. It is the study of what can be computed. Whether you use your PIII or rocks and toilet paper. The answer will come out the same.

  • Well... (Score:4)

    by B00yah ( 213676 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @07:46AM (#1420172) Homepage
    I work as an intern with a computing company, and when I was decided whether to go the cs or cis/mis path, I asked them which they prefered. I was told that, much to my amazement, they prefered cs for both management and development, because they wanted people with programming experience to lead their programmers, so they had a common link. Just my input on the topic.

  • School isn't just to get a job (Score:5)

    by dres ( 713 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @07:48AM (#1420173)

    If you are only in school to get a job I question whether you should be in school at all. School is to expand your mind. It also lets you get a job.

    So the question IMO shouldn't be whether you get paid more for a CS degree vs a CIS degree it should be do you want to learn the things you get from a CS degree.

  • Re:Programmer != CS major (Score:5)

    by Samrobb ( 12731 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @12:11PM (#1420174) Journal
    So basically your point is that a degree is pointless?

    No - just that which degree you have (CS vs. CIS vs. ECE) doesn't neccesarily mean a lot to a prospective employer. The fact that you finished school in a technical field related to computers is often enough to get you into an interview.

    I have seldom found that these questions really allow the interviewee to show more than a slice of his knowledge.
    Depends on what questions you ask, really. The ideal questions, and the ones we try to ask, are the ones that allow a person to demonstrate their knowlege of programming, data structures, and their problem solving skills. Asking questions like "What's a string?" tend to get you an entirely different class of answers than "How would you have implemneted cfront?"
    Usually, a degree is a sign that person has learned a certain amount.
    Agreed... that's what earns them the interview. At that point, they need to demonstrate that they really have learned that certain amount. I have interviewed people who may have been unsung geniuses, but when asked the simplest questions, were unable to explain basic concepts like stacks or linked lists. Either they were unable to function under the slightest amount of pressure, or they were unable to communicate effectively, or they simply didn't understand the concepts. Any one of those, in my mind, is a good enough reason to give someone a thumbs down.
    Sorry, there are things that one learns in school that a person is just not going to discover on the job.

    Like what? Please explain. I've yet to encounter anything that cannot be taught or learned on the job, or picked up "on the side" while working.

    Yeah, a CIS degree may teach you how databases work, but you're never going to just figure out how to write one on the job.
    Pardon me - your arrogance is showing. The first people to write databases did figure them out on the job. There are developers in all corners of the globe who somehow manage to limp along and produce some pretty damn good software without the benefit of a CS degree, because they're willing to learn on the job, outside of school. A CS degree is a good foundation for continuing to learn; but do not think for a moment that lack of a degree neccesarily indicates lack of knowledge.

  • Programmer != CS major (Score:5)

    by Samrobb ( 12731 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:40AM (#1420175) Journal
    Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?

    Everything else being equal, whichever candidate was best able to answer the technical interview questions.

    For someone fresh out of college, a degree is just a foot in the door. There is no way to judge a person's qualifications soley based on whether they were a CS/CIS major. Without any other siginficant work experience, either degree is generally good enough to get you in the door for an interview. (If this isn't the case, then the company probably just isn't interested in hiring a recent graduate, regardless of what their major was.)

    I've interviewed new CS grads who seemed to have learned absolutely nothing from fours years of CS classes, and recent CIS and ECE graduates that were extremely competent. Their degrees had little to do with what they actually learned in school. Yah, a CS major is probably going to know more about computer science and sofware development than a CIS major. Differences in schools, cirriculums, electives and in-school work experiences can level things out pretty quickly, though, to the point where any company that makes a decision about a recent grad based solely on whether they have a CS or CIS degree is shooting themselves in the foot.

  • If you can't hack CS, don't be a programmer (Score:5)

    by SpinyNorman ( 33776 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:03AM (#1420176)
    Sure the calculus stuff may be a pain in the ass, but do you think that being a professional programmer is always a joy-ride?

    If you can't make it through a CS degree, then I'd question if you've really got what it takes to be a programmer unless you're just shooting to do business programming.

    Remember also that you're going to be competing for jobs with others who will have CS degrees. Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?

    Once you've got 4-5yrs experience the college degree fades in importance, but for a first job IMO a CIS degree would definitely put you at a competetive disadvantage.
  • And I've learned a lot about the differences between the degrees. Me and my pal are the only CS majors working for this software company. Here's what we deal with daily.

    Our company seems to think that memory leaks are ok, because "they'll be running windows and they will have to reboot every couple days anyways, plus they should have 3 GB ram in the server anyways"

    It's ok to hit the database every nanosecond and not do any caching. They need to have a heafty machine running the DB anyways, and why are the complaining that our software is slow? It run's fine here when we have 3 users connected at the same time.

    I have fought and fought to teach them what proper OO design is, and to seperate business logic code from the GUI. Not to mention that the overall design of our software is so coupled that breaking it out into a web based application will be almost impossible, but that remains to be the long term plan.

    Here's the difference. CS is mostly oriented on design and theory, not coding. Anyone can learn to code, all you have to do is understand a syntax. CS is the study of solving problems, while MIS steers more towards business management and system administration (which isn't bad). However, there is a big difference between the two, and some companies don't realize this. That's why people say you can get the same job. I believe though that this will change as more and more people become more and more knowledgable about computers and how they work.

    Well, just my 2 cents.

  • Neither CS nor CIS: MATH (Score:5)

    by imagineer_bob ( 163708 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @07:57AM (#1420178) Homepage
    Get your degree in MATH! It's useful for anything!

    We wouldn't even look at a "CIS" or "MIS" resume. Not enough general poblem solving skills. You shouldn't think of your education as a trade school; any programming language or OS you learn about today would not be used 10 years from now.

    (When I was in college, 100 years ago, they were teaching programming courses using IBM 370 Assembly language and PL/I!)

    If all you study are programming languages that are likely to be unheard of in a few years, you're wasting your time. Instead, learn Mathematics well. Then you'll be prepared for anything.

    If you must get a "computer" degree, certainly go for CS, which is likely to take you to at least Differential Equations. Also be sure to take a lot of music, art, history, and economics courses! All of those have come in very handy when trying to apply my knowledge to different disciplines.

  • If you want CIS... (Score:5)

    by OlympicSponsor ( 236309 ) on Wednesday December 27, 2000 @08:05AM (#1420179)
    ...drop out of college and go to tech-school.

    There are many reasons to prefer CS to CIS.

    1) You learn more, much of it useful (no, really). If you want to end up programming, you NEED the stuff (both facts and the way of thinking) a CS degree teaches.

    2) You'll prove that you can handle what a CS degree requires--to employers and to yourself.

    3) A CIS degree's validity will fade rapidly. A CS degree is like a physics degree--you are learning fundamentals of nature, those things don't change.

    That's not to say that you should force yourself through a CS program. If you can't handle it or don't care--don't do it! But if what you want is to Make Money Fast On That Internet Thing, you are wasting your time and money taking a CIS degree at a 4 year, liberal arts college. Just go down to DeVry and take VB and a few accounting classes and you'll be all set.
    --
    MailOne [openone.com]

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