Trading Right-Of-Way For High Bandwidth? 33
eldub asks: "I want to trade several miles of right-of-way for an OC3 or T3 line. A local phone company needs to cross several miles of my ranch in order to lay a new fiber backbone. They are asking for a ridiculous easement granting full access not only to the affected areas but the entire property. That being said, I'm thinking of asking them for something equally ridiculous--a full T3 or OC3 line dropped into the house in exchange for the privilege of digging around in my dirt." This seems like a fair thing to ask for, but how likely is a company to grant such a boon, even if they do want to use your property to run their wires?
"I'm not sure exactly what I should ask for--I'd like to enumerate everything I would need to plug a computer at the house and have mucho grande broadband access. Any of this crowd have any tips?"
Eh... (Score:1)
Re:Incredible. (Score:1)
I use a minimum of 4 public IP addresses, 2 for my DNS machines, 1 for my webserver, and the other for my NAT box.
Why on earth do you have both your DNS servers on the same network? It was my understanding that the whole reason for multiple DNS servers was to aid in removing network dependency.
Also, what's wrong with having your webserver on the internal network and portforwarding port 80? (and the other various ports, for other servers, even DNS)
I agree with your completely about public IPs if you're going to be splitting off that bandwidth for others and it's always nice to have extra IPs for things which just plain don't work through a firewall. But as the other poster said, waste is not necessary.
They'll probably say 'sure'. (Score:3)
Actually (Score:2)
It sure would be cool to have though, huh?
Incredible. (Score:1)
I've actually thought about doing that, but getting a line dug around here would be way to expensive. Since they already want to dig it, let them.
Oh, and I want to be your new neighbor.
Which, of course, goes right back to the telco (Score:1)
you may demand only a monetary fee.
Doesn't matter, as the money would most likely go right back to the telco for the ISP bill, unless the law requires that it be a one-time-only compensation.
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them? [pineight.com]
Re:They'll probably say 'sure'. (Score:1)
Remember to define in the contract who has to maintain the physical cable too. Guaranteed 'not down for more than 48 hours' or you get compensated or a satellite connection, too.
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
Similar in the US (Score:1)
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them? [pineight.com]
From what I know, here's what you'd need. (Score:2)
My one word-of-warning. I ramble a lot, and might not always be clear. Feel free to ask for more info if you want, or e-mail me. :-)
First off, don't ask for a full Class D, unless you're planning on giving the entire town internet access, or literally wall-papering your house with terminals, you'd need at most a 16-IP class D, or in techno-speak, a /28 IP block. I'm living in a techo-house with LAN and phone wiring into every room except the bathrooms with 7 other folks and over 14 computers, and we actually only have 1 IP address and some good Masquerading software. But get 16, and insist that they be 16 IP addresses visible to the outside internet, otherwise they might double-deal ya' and only give ya' a cheaply Masqueraded port that you can't actually use for anything besides web-browsing. :-P
And considering how large your average ranch is, they'd probably be putting a repeating on your property anyways, so splitting off the relatively smaller fiber cable to your house wouldn't be bad.
INSIST ON FULL ARMORING ON YOUR LINE, COMPLETE AND UTTER! If you need to go out and buy some thick galvanized pipe for them to place the fiber in, do so. It's cheap compared to the durability it'll give vs. gophers or other nasty critters. And don't forget about water condensation, have each end of the pipe be somehow sealed, perferably with foam on top of a heavy and thick rubber plug around the fiber. Water is *NOT* your friend, and you want none of it inside your conduit. :-)
I'd ask for: :-) The 8-pair will guarantee you'd at LEAST get 400-500Mbit/sec each way, or roughly 4 100baseT lines each direction. And honestly that's more bandwidth thank most sites can even handle. :-)
Gel-filled fully armored underground-rated 8-pair fiber. At least. I install fiber and cat5 and other such stuff as a job, and can say that we usually use exactly that just on principal of never having to repair anything after we put it in. The stuff's strong enough to be used to pull a tractor without damage, thanks to the armoring and pull-fibers inside. (Tyvek, wonderful stuff.
Finally, you'll need a fiber-supporting switch, I'd recommend a Linksys with 2 expansion ports, with a 4-port fiber channel module included. That'll give you enough ports to plug in all 8 of those pairs, and it'll handle most of the switching for your network, as it has 16 ports, one for each of your IP addresses. :-)
It won't matter how they plug the fiber into their end, so long as it'll talk to the fiber module in the Linksys at your end, so don't bother specifying how, just remind them that you want all 8 pairs active from the get-go, and you'll be set.
Oh, and get it in writing that you'll get 16 internet-visible IP's in a contigious block, and that your guaranteed minimum bandwidth is 400Mbit/sec full duplex.
Final bandwidth you're likely to get: 400Mbit/sec each way. This is roughly 50 MEGABYTES a second you can shove AND draw at the same time. :-) Enjoy finding ways to actually use that much bandwidth. :-)
And yes, I'm assuming the guys laying fiber'll act like snakes-in-the-grass, this is from working with the Telco personally before to get such-and-such job done, and you might luck out and get nice folks, but you want the setup as durable as possible so you never have to call them again, and also so they can't immediately say the problem is in your equipment. You can plug right into the Linksys, or if it doesn't have little bright lights by the fiber ports, you know it's their equipment. :-) So it minimizes/removes the "it's not my fault, it's your fault" round-robin Telco run-arounds. :-)
And requesting 16 internet-visible IP addresses means you'll have directly access to the net with those, which also means the outside world'll have access to your end. So prolly shop around for a firewall or router or just learn about it yourself. >^.^ Just a friendly reminder/warning.
not likely (Score:1)
Not too likely, IMHO. I've worked for/at two large telcos (hey Wiltel and Sprint, don't miss ya); being the what they are they when you hit 'em up with an out-of-the-box request like that they'll just ignore you. Don't get me wrong, on a personal level, every person you meet may well think it's a great idea, but just try and ram it through their institutional process . .
Re:Incredible. (Score:1)
Why not... (Score:1)
I don't have any clue how much this line is worth to your phone company, so I'll pick some arbitrary number: $2000/month. That's nowhere near enough for a T-3, but that'll get you a nice unmetered T-1 from a good ISP, with some change left over to upgrade your boxen and whatnot, and you won't have to deal with the phone company regarding the line -- let's face it, if they're paying directly for your line, they're going to muck things up every chance they get. But there's not much they can do to muck things up when all they're doing is sending you a check in the mail every once in a while.
Anyway, just a thought. Wish I were your in position, just for the simple pleasure of getting to mess with the telco instead of the other way around for once.
USWest (Score:1)
This reminds me of a story that the owner of a house we have a wireless repeater on told us.
When he was building his house USWest charged him an outrageous figure for the install for his phone line since he was quite a ways from the nearest telephone line. I think it was nearly if not over 5 figures.
So, one day he gets contacted by USWest. It seems that they want to drag a Fiber across his property. He basically said to them, "Well, back when I put a phone line into my house you charged me x for the install. That's what it's going to cost you to drag that across my property." Evidentally they paid up.
By the way, we are swapping out service for the use of their house as a repeater location. And seeing as we have a 25mb/s pipe to them to service the repeater, they are getting really GOOD service too... Fiber is a different can of worms though, as there isn't exactly an ethernet port handy, and singlemode fiber is a real pain to splice and terminate.
Maybe obligated to give land-access to company (Score:1)
You don't say which country you're asking about but in the UK and several other European countries too, a land owner is legally obligated through national laws to provide access to any utility company that requests land use and the land owner is entitled in return to a "reasonable" fee, which is usually negotiable based on a notional market rate. The UK legal term for such access rights is a "wayleave".
Re:Class D IP space? (Score:1)
-marius
Re:Class D IP space? (Score:1)
Also, where the hell do you live that this is even a freaking option ? I mean getting a OC3 close to TELCOS CO is not easy, and given that a T1 can cost about $1400 and above, you must be growing some damn good stuff!
Lastly, why the hell would you want soo much bandwidth to your house ? have you heard of Colo's, i mean they are exp, but if you want to play with so much data, you better be serious about it! and shit if this actually comes through let us know..... we can see how soon your servers get
Re:Maybe obligated to give land-access to company (Score:1)
I left out the word "only" as in: "land owner is only entitled in return to a reasonable fee", i.e., you may demand only a monetary fee.
You'll still need internet bandwidth. (Score:1)
Good for him!! (Score:1)
Class D IP space? (Score:5)
This has got to be the best way of getting bandwidth, for close to nothing. I'd ask for at least a T3, make sure they include a CSU/DSU, and a full class D IP range. Then you could run fiber to all of your neighbors and charge them for access. :)
CID 5:
First off, don't ask for a full Class D, unless you're planning on giving the entire town internet access, or literally wall-papering your house with terminals, you'd need at most a 16-IP class D, or in techno-speak, a /28 IP block.
Guys. Please. If you're going to reply and spout off smart-sounding technical terms, at least use the correct ones.
A class A is a /8 (16,777,216 IPs), a class B is a /16 (65,536 IPs), and a class C is a /24 (256 IPs). Class D IP space is -MULTICAST-. Not unicast IP space. It's multicast (224.0.0.0). It's not the size of an IP block. And given that noone uses classful IP anymore (at least, not anyone with a clue), asking an ISP for a Class anything block will probably get inquisitive stares and/or laughter.
That said, we'll move on now to the "ask for a guaranteed minimum of 400Mbit/s full duplex" comment.
Basically, you're full of crap. OC3 is 155Mbit, an OC12 is 622Mbit. There's nothing in between. Telco's dont run Ethernet (100xX or 1000xX) over WAN, so where did you get this "100mbit per fiber" crap? You really expect to take an underground-rated singlemode pair of fiber $TELCO ran into your back yard and plug it into some $1200 Linksys switch? And, do you -really- think some telco is going to just GIVE you this kind of bandwidth? The cheapest I've seen bandwidth sold for is around $400 PER MEGABIT per MONTH. You expect $TELCO to give away $62,000 (OC3) in revenue a MONTH just to drop a conduit on this guy's property? Where do you buy your crack, and can I have some?
Remember, telco's would sell their own mothers for a price. And not necessarily a high one, either.
Here's a more realistic request.
Ask for a 768K FT1 or frame + transit, a /28 (16 IPs, 14 useable), a DSU and router (nothing fancy, a cisco 2611 with WIC-1T would do nicely), and offer to take the rep out to lunch. Even this is probably a stretch, but it's one HELL of a lot more likely than the previous suggestions.
If you act like an ass, and start getting pie-in-the-sky-dreams of an OC12 for your bathroom (like previous posters), complete with termination and routing equipment, $TELCO is going to tell you to stuff it where the sun don't shine, and alter their plans to move about 5 miles around you and you get nothing.
-j
Fairness is in the eye of the beholder (Score:1)
I've seen a municipality bond for dramatically more (e.g., $8MM instead of $6MM) just to get around (literally) a selfish feifdom--attempted extortion by a couple of pigheaded public officials who stood between the project owners and their target. (Township government in southwest Michigan sucks as hard as they can make it suck--and since that's their only mutual goal, they deliver BIG TIME :-) For-profit businesses may not take that tone, but don't be too sure.
A lot depends on your location and circumstances. For example, with a ranch that size, you may be standing in the way of something like VBNS
(http://www.nevada.edu/nrn/vbns_proposal2_final.ht ml).
"...In exchange for right-of-way access from the Nevada Department of Transportation, Nevada will obtain at reduced or no cost the use of an OC48 pipe between the two cities. SCS will obtain an OC12 pipe from this project, of which an OC3 channel will be dedicated to upgrading the NevadaNet backbone, an OC3 channel will be dedicated to the NRN, and two OC3 channels will be reserved for backup and expansion purposes. The routers and associated equipment at the terminations of the OC12 pipe are being funded by SCS's operating budget..."
So--after paying for routers et alia--they'd have at least an OC12 (maybe more). At that rate, you could expect perhaps r/N * 622Mbit (where rm is the number of miles across your ranch, and nm is the number of miles across Nevada. Can you say, 'fourteen-four' :-). And frankly, you don't have as many attorneys as Nevada has! So, first find out: is this just another trench, or is it the new line out to Area 51-B? Are you at the beginning of a new project, or the last five miles? Does your local unit have an infrastructure plan; your county; your state? What's your leverage?
Bandwidth may _seem_ like the common language (between you and some engineers), but $$$ will be the common, hmmm... currency! The negotiators wouldn't know a router from an Apple IIe--they just want to make a deal so the engineers can get to work.
If you think too far outside the box, you may scare them to the neighbor's land (else they may just microwave you :-)
Re:Class D IP space? (Score:1)
Re:Actually (Score:1)
Hope this helps.
Has the FCC changed its rules lately? (Score:1)
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
Re:USWest (Score:1)
I may just be me, but I fail to see how a 25 millibit per second connection would kick ass.
Re:Actually (Score:1)
Do you really think that telcos run thousands of strands across the Atlantic?!?!?!! Think about repair costs!
Plan to move the cable (Score:2)
There is a fairly famous story about one of the MAJOR Western RRs (UP if I remember right) that had a probelm like this. SOMEONE figured out where the railroad HAD to go before the land was bought, and bought a small parcel of land (like a few dozen acres), and put in a "Railroad", consisteing of 2 lengths of rail, on ties (aka, 39 feet of track), and built ONE railroad car on it.
The person who did that got VERY rich, as the railroad could NOT claim eminent domain, as there was an existing railroad there! They HAD to pay up!
Re:Actually (Score:1)
Re:Mod this one down for stupidity. (Score:1)
Get suspicious, get equity, and a good lawyer (Score:1)
They may not currently be planning to screw you royally, but they're obviously reserving the right to do so in the future. Start looking for a good trained attack lawyer. One who believes that being paranoid is just the beginning of sensible self-defense. If it's a phone company, it's a public utility, and a lot more of their records than those of "regular" companies should be available for public viewing. Start digging. There's something that they aren't telling you. If you're going to exchange the use of your property for anything, get voting stock in the company. Buy the bandwidth with the dividends. Find a way to claim the bandwidth as an expense on your taxes.
Re:They'll probably say 'sure'. (Score:1)
"not down for more than 48 hours"- please, for this kind of connection you should be talking about 3 hours or so! OC-3= a whole lotta funk!
You need much more info (Score:3)
First, you will have to approach the telco, and possibly local councils who have copies of the proposed line, maybe even the state PUC, and gather as much info as possible. Find out where the cable will start and end, and what other easements they are obtaining. Perhaps your neighbors would also like to share in an additional line for internet access. Find out what kinds of equipment will be connected at each end of the cable. Find out everything.
Educate yourself on telco terminology, since it has nothing to do with the internet. Start with capacity reference [design-net.com] and do searches on the terms "Class 5" "tandem switches" "SS7" "IXC" "ILEC/CLEC".
Then go down to the local county planning office, and ask around about easements and payments, or ask a licensed realtor. The clause for full access to a property is normal, because they want to use your road to get to the cable, and you might block it in the future. You can negotiate a specific route for them to use, but you can't just give an easement without access. It is pretty normal for an easement to be given for a one time payment or a continuing royalty scheme. With continuing royalties, make sure you have a lawyer and accountant review everything otherwise the cheques dry up after a year or two, the same probably goes for an internet connection.
Now we'll get into the realm of guesswork.
I'd guess that the telco is not laying a backbone, not if its something tiny like a T3 or OC3 (T3 is a layer 2 signalling spec, OCx is the physical spec). It sounds like a trunk (errr, trunkgroup) connecting two COs or a CO directly with an IXC tandem. Chances are they aren't just laying a single fibre, it will be a cable with 8 or 12 or more pairs, capacity for a predicted 20 years of growth. If they are hauling OC3/12/48 on monomode fibre, then one pair in the cable will probably be dedicated to SS7 traffic, and can't be subverted for anything else. The other pairs will be earmarked for leasing to customers over the years, and if there isn't a customer willing to pay market rates, the accountants will not allow it to be used for lesser revenue streams. Be forewarned, accountants are the enemy, even if the engineers and negotiators like your idea!
If you do get them to loan you a spare pair, you will need to get the telco end terminated at an ISP's router located in the same building. So you will have to find out if there is any colo space in the CO, and then start negotiations with the ISP. The ISP will probably have a big [cisco.com] cisco router like this [cisco.com] and you will probably have to buy an additional optical line card for them, or somehow pay them enough money to ammortize their investment over the life of your connection. I would charge US$600/month for a simple connection to one of my OC3/ATM line cards, plus additional for IP addresses, management, bandwith guarantees, traffic, etc. At your end, you will have to buy a small router [cisco.com] capable of handling the conversion from optical [cisco.com] and providing you with a 10/100 ethernet connection.
On the plus side, if you are going in for a full optical connection, you should lease a block of at least 16 or 32 IP addresses from the ISP, and have room to add extra devices. Chances are, if they are giving you a connection on one of their big routers, they would love to sell you more than just a single static IP address (actually, you will have to have at least a
If you are truly far away from any big urban ISP coverage for high speed internet, you might consider adding a wireless card to your router, and running an antenna up high on your property, and letting your neighbors share in the excess bandwidth. Or find a local ISP who would love the extra revenue from locating a router/wireless on your property to sell to your neighbors, and let them deal with the business and support issues while you just have your own hardline connection.
No matter what you do, this will cost you money. Telcos don't want to have to engineer a simple internet connection for a rancher just so he can download his pr0n faster, it just isn't their business. Their business is laying optical interconnects between plants, so that is what you will have to ask them for, and leave the internet stuff until later.
You have a better chance if you can get a lot of technical help from the bitheads at a local ISP, or by approaching a local community college with courses in networking. Maybe you can purchase your own fibre cable and have it laid at the same time, and then plan on reselling the excess capacity to cell phone operators and ISPs. A cell site on your own fibre can earn you some revenue as well. Email with questions, and put slashdot in the subject or it gets auto-deleted.
the AC
Re:Mod this down. (Score:1)