Why Do People Hate Indrema? 22
Bill Kendrick asks: "I run a small site dedicated to the upcoming Linux-based game console and entertainment system, the Indrema (which hasn't been mentioned here in months, by the way). While sniffing around the net, it's impossible not to notice the tons of really nasty comments being made on Usenet, message boards and talk-back forums about the system, the company, the concept... What amazes me is some of the worst flames come from folks in the Linux community! Is there really something so inherently bad about the idea? Is it truly destined to failure just because they company is new in town? With Sega faltering, MicroSoft being potentially broken up, and PlayStation2's nearly impossible to buy, isn't it conceivable that something with such good specs, cool features and an open-source philosophy to boot, might actually make it?" I haven't heard much of anything about the system more than the material passed out at trading shows or the stuff on their website. I'm actually looking forward to a Linux based gaming platform.
Quite Simple Really... (Score:2)
No reason to buy it & no space in the market (Score:2)
Joe Consumer has heard of the Playstation2, knows who Nintendo are and will know what the XBox is when Microsoft start pushing it. Why would he buy an Indrema when he sees these competitors?
Why would any retail store stock it? The big players really help out the stores to shift units & make it attractive for them to do so. Indrema doesn't have the cash for this.
What big name killer apps will it have? Sony have people like Namco & Sega writing stuff for their boxes, Nintendo are well Nintendo really. Microsoft have Square. Indrema has dodgy ports of old PC games maybe.
Re:Quite Simple Really... (Score:2)
Until the Indrema puts up, people will keep telling it to shut up.
It's like the hardware equivalent of a software project that has a page on SourceForge, a set of mailing lists, a white paper, a team of "developers".. and not a line of code.
And the reason why the worse flamers tend to be in the Linux community, I'll wager, is that they don't want "their" Linux associated with vaporware that they are sure will die with a whimper, and give them a bad name.
Although, unlike the BitBoys, Indrema are not faced with the hostility of roving Amiga zealots who think that their only claim to fame was doing PC demos that were bad imitations of years-older Amiga demos running on much lower end hardware. :-)
That said, in a perfect world, the Indrema would be /<-rAd. I'd get one!
New paradigm needed (Score:2)
I've always thought it would be cool to have a console system for which users could develop and share their own games. The problem with consoles is that the games are so damned expensive. It'd be cool if Indrema built a community around their platform, and set up a SourceForge type site for open development of games. I'd think that would be sufficiently revolutionary.
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Want a Linux-based gaming console? (Score:3)
Currently there's support for the hardware interrupts, and just last nite I committed initial framebuffer support. Other things to work on are GD-ROM support, PCI support (for the broadband adapter), Maple input (keyboard, controllers, mice), etc. So if you're a kernel hacker or good with documentation, we need you.
As things progress, we'll also start porting userland apps and libraries over as well. There's already a initial port of Debian to the SH arch, so that'd probably be where we headed.
Note: This is NOT the binary-ony kernel that was floating around some time back, we didn't do that kernel and we don't do GPL violations ;).
M. R.
Maybe it's their lack of a business plan (Score:4)
Do they have a developer relations team?
Do they have good hardware partners with a solid consumer electronics background? Do they have a sourcing and production team that can reasonably ensure a steady supply of parts and enforce good build quality?
Do they have a sales and marketing operation that has experience selling into the major retailers in this space? Do they have the marketing dollars to buy floor and shelf space so their product is visible?
Their current marketing, evidenced by their web site, [indrema.com] is all about Linux, Linux, Linux. Why do consumers care about Linux? Why do retailers care about Linux? Why do professional development shops with the dozens of programmers and multimedia production people necessary fior making a modern console game care about Linux? Why do they think consumers want yet another second-rate WebTV-style web appliance when not many want WebTV?
They claim it will play DVDs and act as a TiVO-ish video recorder. Do they have partners for the DVD decoding component and the online TV listings? Are they revising the hardware spec upward now that a 10GB hard drive on a PVR is considered low end?
It doesn't help that the prototype case design looks like it was done by the accountant's brother-in-law. This doesn't come across as a company that understands the market for game consoles, much less how to create a product that can compete in that space.
Re:New paradigm needed (Score:1)
Re:New paradigm needed (Score:2)
Linux users (Score:1)
I'd say that anyone who expects Linux enthusiasts to support everything and everything that uses Linux has got a seriously wrong idea. People don't become Linux enthusiasts like they become fans of a particular sports team, or like a lot of fans of Star Trek. The brand name alone is meaningless. They like things that use Linux *because they're good*. If Linux is used in something stupid, they won't support it just because it uses Linux.
Lack of support and press are the major reasons (Score:2)
Re:Lack of support and press are the major reasons (Score:1)
Let's take a look at these specs: (Score:1)
Indrema - 600 Mhz x86
XBox - 733 Mhz Intel
PS2 - 300 Mhz
A MHz to MHz comparison is unfair as we all know, but it seems to me the XBox has the edge over the indrema here.
GPU - Graphics chip developed by nVidia is a generational leap from current features and performance
XBox - 300 Mhz custom-designed graphics chip, developed by Microsoft and nVidia
PS2 - 150 Mhz Sony GS
Wow, the Indrema has a new chip by nVidia that's a generational leap from current features. The XBox only has some custom-designed chip that is aparently not a generational leap. They apparently forgot to mention that both systems will have chips based on the NV20. The XBox has an NV20 with two parallel vertex shaders, while the GF3 which the Indrema will be stuck with has one.
Total Memory
Indrema 96 MB (64 Core + 32 Local)
XBox 64 MB
PS2 38 MB
Hmm, the Indrema has 32 more megs than the XBox, that's better right? Wrong! The XBox has 64MB of _unified_ memory. Both CPU and GPU access the same memory without going over an AGP bus. To get a texture or vertex buffer onto a GF3 you first create it in main memory and then upload to the card.
Memory Thruput
Indrema 5-10 GB/Sec*
XBox 6.4 GB/Sec
PS2 3.2 GB/Sec
There's an asterisk here which is not explained. At least we can say that the XBox's thruput is within the range Indrema proposes.
Polygons
Indrema 120-180 M/Sec*
XBox 150 M/Sec
PS2 66 M/Sec
Another asterisk. Polygon numbers are as useless as MHz. Given the fact that nVidia is offering a less able card to the PC market than the XBox, I suggest that the Indrema will push less polygons.
Storage Medium
Indrema 4x DVD, 10 GB hard disk
XBox 4x DVD, 8 GB hard disk, 8 MB memory card
PS2 4x DVD, 8 MB memory card
Indrema wins by 2GB. Unless memory cards are important to you.
Internet Access
Indrema - Built in browser and email, use any Internet service provider
XBox - May require MSN or other
PS2 - May require Sony ISP or other
In terms of which is more like WebTV, Indrema wins. You can count that as a positive or a negative.
Broadband Enabled
Indrema - Yes
XBox - Yes
PS2 - Future Upgrade
Tie.
DVD Movie Playback
Indrema - Yes, progressive scan
XBox - Yes
PS2 - Yes
This implies that the XBox will not have progressive scan output, which either a mistake or a lie. It will.
Personal TV
Indrema - Available
XBox - No
PS2 - No
I don't know what this is. If they mean Tivo-like functionality, the XBox will provide that as an add-on.
MP3 Jukebox
Indrema - Built In
XBox - No
PS2 - No
Indrema wins.
More important than a spec-for-spec comparison tho, is a bang-for-buck comparison. My question is:
MS knows it can sell the XBox as a loss-leader for the games it makes a cut of. MS is in bed with nVidia who is making the video and the intregrated sound/memory controller.
Indrema must buy parts from nVidia and others as a regular wholesaler.
Can Indrema must pay more for the parts and most likely cannot afford to eat a loss on every piece of hardware, especially when they know if they did slashdot types would buy to simply make 'em into firewalls and never buy a game.
Re:Maybe it's their lack of a business plan (Score:1)
Unfortunately, a good question. They're very hush-hush when it comes to talking about what companies will be releasing games for the system. Their reason is they don't want to promise anything they can't deliver.
However, my personal opinion is unless the developers will go berzerk, they provide a list. (ie, quit bluffing!) Broken promises are par for the course in the gaming industry, it seems.
Playstation2 availability (Score:1)
I could go done to one of our local department stores right now and pick one up, and I live in a small city in southern Australia.
Surely it can't be that hard in the US.
Re:Quite Simple Really... (Score:1)
Re:What They're Doing Wrong (Score:2)
Actually, that's what the development box is for (which supposedly will cost $1000 maximum).
Test on that, get the final working version ceritied, and you're off..
Also, for the "simpler" projects, if you follow the guidelines (no multiple windows, for example), you probably really can do most or all of your testing on a reasonable Linux-based PC.
I really doubt the Indrema folks won't try to help people get their games certified.
I LUV INDREMA (Score:1)
We've all seen this before (Score:2)
The first reason is simple. Anyone who's even heard of Indrema is critical of it, and outside of the Linux community, no-one has even heard of the lousy thing.
The second reason is more complex. Most projects fail. In the closed world, most projects go into failure mode before the marketing department gets a hold of them. Most heavily marketed closed source stuff is either already some distance down the production path, or has some venture capitalists leaning very hard on the project to make sure it starts to move down that path very soon.
Open source stuff generally hops onto the marketing path very early. There's a lot of pressure in open source to get the world interested in you, but much less pressure to get something done -- check out the hundreds (or perhaps thousands) of projects on sourceforge that have version 0.1alpha of some code up, and empty mailing archives.
Linux users have become very, very cynical about project announcements -- even more so than Microsoft users. Simply put, I don't believe Indrema will ever happen, because in my world, projects that get to the marketing stage and then never happen are the rule, rather than the exception. The rest of the world will be far less critical, because in their world projects that get to the marketing stage and then never happen are the exception, rather than the rule.
Of course, it should be noted that game companies usually work a lot more like most open source projects -- a lot of hype early, and too often a product that never gets delivered. As a result, Linux gamers are probably the most cynical people on the planet, and with good reason...
Re:We've all seen this before (Score:2)
Perhaps laypeople haven't, but my site cites [newbreedsoftware.com] over 6 dozen articles on the Indrema and I'm finding more every time I look.
Also, the current issue of NextGen [next-generation.com] magazine touts that their next will have an article on it ("Developer'sDream?").
Ditto for the latest (rather, last [slashdot.org], unfortunately) issue of MaximumLinux.
They're getting there... albeit quite slowly.
Cost (Score:2)
Last time I checked, Indrema had no intention of selling the hardware at a loss.
You do the math.
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Re:Cost (Score:1)
Sorry. You're wrong!
To quote Karen McNeil's post [indrema.com] on IDN [indrema.com]'s "Discuss" mailing list:
The only reasons that Indrema is selling the
developer console for more than the user console
are 1) the developer console will not be sold at
a steep loss, like the consumer console is, and
2) the dev console needs to be more expensive to
prevent consumers from just buying the dev
console to play uncertified games (thus
cannibalizing our revenue stream and forcing us
out of business.)
gotta hate something (Score:1)