Forced Into Spamming By Your Employer? 107
SOS asks: "My employer has asked me to setup a 'SPAM super boxen' in which all it does all day is spew out spam. We have setup a bogus domain, and brought in several broadband internet connections from several ISPs in which to do this nasty deed from. I have insisted at the very least that we actually do setup a system in which people can take there name off the list by simply replying to the spam email. But I would rather not do this at all, while still being employed by this company. The impression management is under is that 'spam works'. Its very simple, they spend $2000 for a server and internet connection, have there system admin spend a few hours setting it up, and if they only gain 5 clients from 50,000 emails, it will be well worth it. If one ISP shuts us down, we switch to another one the same day. What argument can I use to somehow dislodge this idea from there head, and possibly implant something a little more sensible, while staying employed?" I always liken SPAM to telemarketers. Everyone hates being associated with telemarketers. However if that trick doesn't work and the legalese surrounding SPAM isn't enough of an argument against it, what other arguments are likely to gain the attention of your neighborhood PHB?
Learn To Spell, Then Get a New Job (Score:1)
Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:1)
In the future, and for everyone else, don't even raise objections with your employers about their marketing schemes. The marketing people don't care, they also have more friends in upper management than you do.
Simply post the story as an AC, call the ISP from a payphone and alert them that this is about to happen, newgroup post from someone elses poorly secured NNTP server to NANA about it.
Oh, and post the CEO's email address to as many newsgroups, weblogs and porno password sites as possible. After all, he may miss out on the next big deal of the century if he doesn't get all that good 'free' advertising, right?
The main thing is, don't ever let them know you're the mole.
Just "accidentally" add root@fbi.gov, etc. to list (Score:1)
Re:Be a sneak (Score:1)
They best be paying you a LOT of money... (Score:1)
I like to think I'd turn them down and walk out of there - but in the end how much cash are you prepared to lose for your principles?
Mind you it could look great on your CV provided you can find an ethical company to interview you
Re:There is only one way to change a capitalists m (Score:1)
That's a good angle - my company would never consider spamming just because of the bad press it would generate. Unfortunately if your company is marketing a dubious product (as seems to be the case with 99% of spammers) they probably won't care...
Corporate Subterfuge? (Score:1)
You could send your company's fake domains to spam filter list websites. That way at least you could ease your conscience by helping to giving people fair warning. (I'm assuming that spam filter lists are available online. They do, right? I don't filter my e-mail, so I'm not sure... it sounds like it would make sense though)
Re:Convincing them... (Score:2)
Someone give that man a medal
Preemptive... (Score:4)
Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:1)
(I know. I just couldn't resist.)
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Stop it fast (Score:2)
Spam is illegal in many juridictions (Score:3)
Life's too short to work for jerks and criminals. You've got skills, and despite what everyone says, your skills are still marketable. Take advantage of that, and trade up to a better job.
Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:2)
Imagine what would happen if *everyone* had your attitude.
We'd have space shuttles blowing up, all because someone didn't have the cojones to fink-out the boos. Or child slave labour manufacturing negligees for rich bitches. Or toxic spills devastating entire ecosystems, beyond all repair.
Oh... wait. It seems everyone *does* have your attitude.
Except, perhaps, the few people who have put their lives on the line to stop their employers from doing the illegal and immoral. Karen Silkwood, f'rinstance.
But, then, people with strong moral fiber are surely a world apart from people like you.
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Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:2)
Strike the last line; I re-read your post, and your first point somewhat ameliorates what you said in the second point. Not that your second point is really all that terrific: blindly doing what the boss says does yourself and your boss a disservice.
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Re:Spam is freedom of speech (Score:2)
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Quit (Score:1)
Re:why stay working there (Score:2)
Fuggin' walk. (Score:1)
Fighting the War on the War on Drugs.
There is only one way to change a capitalists mind (Score:2)
In this case you must show him how his money is going into a black hole by spamming. Find case studies and figure out the ROI for such an operation. If it turns out that spamming does actually have a decent ROI then...
Show him how the ill will generated by the spamming is losing him money. In particular you must show that he is losing more money than he is making.
If both those fail, then maybe he *should* be in the spam business.
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Ohh this one is easy. (Score:3)
1) Do you think you can change the attitude of the company? Only you would know this. If you feel it's something you can educate people about, by all means try.
2) Don't forget that it's not your company; you are an employee, and it's their way or the highway. You can indicate to them that you will not do this, and that if that means you lose your job, that's fine. Or you can simply say 'no' and quit. That's your call.
3) You can do the job you are being paid to do. Spam is not illegal where you are? Your employer is paying for their bandwidth? I hate spam as much as the next guy... but only you can decide how far to go to protect what you think is right.
Can you say 'accessory to ...' (Score:1)
I have seen spam NOT working (Score:1)
So either people aren't interested in what the spammer was selling (spamming tools), or the majority of people with email addresses just ignore it now.
Personally, I'd quit if I couldn't get them to change course. But it's your choice, not mine.
Good luck.
Lost customers... (Score:1)
I dont have any numbers to back this up, but they probably dont have any for thier arguments either.
You can do some good (Score:2)
Go down in a blaze of glory, I always say.
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True cost is not dollars (Score:2)
The damage done to the reputation of the company, and the hassle from the annoyed recipients will cost you far more. If you're selling something they will have SOME way to get a hold of you.
If that doesn't convince them, carefully read Death March by Ed Yourdon this weekend.
quit your job (Score:1)
Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:2)
For some reason, this sounds like an episode of the Sopranos. Somebody decides they no longer want to do the family business, and when they try to get out, boom, they get whacked. Leaving a job over something like this would really put a dent in your resume. Non-savvy bosses are going to say, "Hmmm, this fella doesn't do what he's told," and that will be the end of that interview.
Same situation here, only worse (Score:3)
I'm in a worse position, though, because we're actually getting paid to do it. No matter how much I complain, it still brings money directly in the door, and it's not like I can bite the hand that feeds me.
Spam really is a moneymaker, just like snail mail spam is, and in these dark days of dot-com deadpools, you can't afford to pick your customers. I can't exactly point at any other profitable web-based business and say, "See, this is how you're supposed to do it."
Problem is, there's no real downside ... (Score:2)
Perhaps hiring a hit is your only alternative? :)
You're screwed... (Score:1)
If management is this stupid, you'd better leave as soon as possible. Tell your boss that you won't work for a company that harasses people. (Spam is harassment.)
The only way to get them to rethink this is to get it through their thick skulls that spam is harassment, and that no business can survive by harassing it's potential customers.
Let them know that any ISP they use will prohibit this - and then go to the ISP's and tell them - get them to talk to your management, and to tell them why this is bad - have them use the word "lawsuit" as much as possible. (Large ISP's have successfully sued spammers in the past.)
If this doesn't work, post the email addresseses of your bosses here, so everyone at
Not Quite. (Score:2)
I told my boss in no uncertain terms "NO!".
And (after a very long discussion,) he conceded.. he said that he thought that I was wrong, but if I felt that strongly about it, then he'd concede.
It's not impossible - you just have to be adamant.
Re:Convincing them... (Score:1)
Re:True cost is not dollars (Score:2)
I have never bought anything (or visited the site of) any company that has sent a spam email to me. Mainly because the language is appalling, littered with $ signs (and I live in the UK - yep, sound very targetted to me), and I know that the product will NOT change my life forever, or give me a 13" wanger and 15 girls a week, or show me the most beautiful girls without clothes in the world.
I (and most other slightly clueful internet users) view any spam email as suspicious and dodgy (like a pyramid scheme, etc). Your company might sell the most marvellous products, but all that effort will go to waste if you use spam. I recall a company called "Domains for Christmas" that used spam email to get customers - the resulting backlash all but shut the company down before it had started, and I haven't heard of it since.
Talk to your boss about opt-in mailing lists and online targetted advertising, such as the excellent Google system. Newsletters and the like every month or so are fine, and they will go to the customers most likely to buy stuff (otherwise why would they have signed up?). Newsletters every week are annoying, and every fortnight is dodgy as well. On the opt-in form, put an option for "Plain Text Mails Only" please...
Your boss sounds just like a clueless bosses off of BOFH 2 (on The Register).
Nothing to do with freedom of speech (Score:2)
Consider your example: KKK marches. The KKK is allowed to ask for permits to parade just like anybody else. And the government can't deny them the permit just because their opinions are unpopular. But neither does the government have to grant them the right to parade where they please just because they are speaking.
Don't believe me? Try applying for a permit to march through a residential neighborhood at 3 am. You'll be denied. Try marching, and you could legitimately be arrested, and telling the judge that the Constitution promises freedom of speech will not get you out of the slammer. Thus should it be with spamming.
Re:Same situation here, only worse (Score:1)
JOhn
Re:Here's one solution (Score:1)
JOhn
Because it's bad business (Score:1)
I have to wonder what they're going to do when all your possible ISP's refuse to provide service to you, which should take about a week. Note that you won't be able to get any broadband service ever again. Your company will be forced into using UUNet dialups to get internet access.
Stupid stupid stupid. Please let us know what your company is, then quit.
Michael
SPAM is illegal in lots of places (Score:1)
Of course .... (Score:1)
Re:Tell them you are spamming people, but DONT rea (Score:2)
Send all of the e-mails out to ABUSE at the ISPs being used.
Send hundreds of them, constantly.
I promise not much spam will get out before the ISPs pull the plug.
For added effect, put ABUSE @ ISP in the reply field.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Re:There is only one way to change a capitalists m (Score:2)
Spam can generate a real return on investment, actually.
Unfortunately, it's quite probably partially to blame for the fall of the internet's advertisement market.
Because of spam, nobody trusts advertisement agencies. Because nobody trusts them, less people purchase online. Because less people purchase online, web-sites investing loads on legit advertisement don't make a return on their investment. Because Spammers reach more customers, cheaper, they sometimes profit.
Thus - SPAM killed the dot-coms. (Well, not really -- but it makes for a good anti-spam argument.)
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Here's one solution (Score:2)
If not, it would be a great way to quit your job.
Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:2)
Oh - you DO have the FULL list of internal addresses for your organisation in your spam list too. Including all the possible variations on each address, naturally, plus a few million more that are *almost* right and just waste resource. (You don't need to feel guilty about spamming yourselves this way
That might bring a different perspective to the "wonders" of spam when your own staff all start complaining.
Re:They best be paying you a LOT of money... (Score:1)
"integrity is standing by your principles even when they are not convinent"
please excuse the spelling
Jon
Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:1)
BTW, I am not recommending that you quit, I'm just pointing out that it would not be the end of your career. I would educate management about spam and the _cost_ of it when people retaliate, such as ISP costs. If you do get fired over it, make sure you notify each of the ISPs so that they get their access cut off.
But it does work... (Score:2)
Of course, if you're a legitimate company, the customers you alienate into never even considering your product will more than offset any potential gains from spamming. When I got a spam from a company offering my previous employer's products (Satellite TV stuff) quite a few employees complained and the word from upper management was one of the conditions of selling our stuff was not using UCE to do it.
Of course, it'd be fairly easy to end the spam plague by making it computationally expensive to send a list to 20,000,000 people. And those 20,000,000 people could easly do that by requiring that any E-Mail that goes to them does so in encrypted form (To a 4096 bit key ideally.) They could whitelist mailing lists easily enough. My PGP (Well... GPG) key would have an EULA prohibiting its use for commercial E-Mail...
However, no one will ever do that so Congress will have to screw around and try to create laws that don't conflict with the constitution and which don't do any good anyway.
Put the boss'es address in the email (Score:1)
blacklist for ISPs to refuse service to spammers? (Score:1)
This list could include name, city, state at the very least. If it weren't publicized, but only shared among ISPs, it could even include addresses, etc.
This would eliminate the move-to-another-ISP soliution that the original poster's boss proposes.
Participation among ISPs would be voluntary of course, but pretty soon, ISPs will start touting the fact that they are vigilant against harboring spammers -- it could be like a Internet "good housekeeping" seal, and bring goodwill from other legitimate customers.
What state will this SPAM operation be in? (Score:1)
http://www.spamlaws.com/
Re:There is only one way to change a capitalists m (Score:1)
how effective (+ or -) is spam?
It can be done right, I think. (Score:1)
We are *very* careful about spam charges, since getting dropped into the RBL could doom us. At the bottom of our invitation emails, we carefully explain exactly how we obtained the person's email address, we clearly state our client's name, and we provide multiple recourses for people who think they've been emailed wrongly. Given the cynicism about "unsubscribe me" addresses, I'm not sure if anyone would ever use them, but we do provide it.
We're not a pyramid scam or a dick-extension house, we make good-faith efforts to ensure that we don't piss people off, and we don't make any attempt to hide who we are or who we're serving. So I don't have any trouble sleeping at night over our survey invitation policies.
zo.
ps. The fact that our survey invitations usually parse in English distinguishes us from 99% of spam, anyway.
Re:I guess I'm lucky... (Score:1)
I guess I'm lucky... (Score:3)
However, as a bonus to those in my company who might feel they are loosing a sales channel here, I remind them of a few facts.
1) If you spam, you are likely to hit at least one person that's highly knowledgeable, and just as unethical as you are. This opens you up to a high chance of unwanted cracker attention (I'd use the word hacker here, it terrifies them more
2) It's amazing just how much BAD will these things generate, and some people will go out of their way to get your legitimate ISP to shut you down as well. A lot of ISPs will do this for fear of hitting the RBL.
3) Speaking of the RBL, there are some lists that will include you for taking part in this kind of behaviour. If you are traced (and that's by no means impossible), you could loose your email and internet lines.
What's the issue? (Score:1)
-Legion
Give us your domain. (Score:3)
Convincing Arguments (Score:5)
Marketing 'people' and computers (Score:2)
Better yet... (Score:1)
Been there. (Score:3)
The expectation was that after consistently being defaced every time spam was sent out, the boss would think that spam was more trouble than it was worth. As it turned out, we never had to resort to this plan, since the company was driven into the ground first.
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Re:why stay working there (Score:1)
I wouldn't suggest quitting, but you can also refuse and leave the firing up to them. At a job long ago, my boss was told by upper management to fabricate sales reports to feed to one of our suppliers. I told my boss that I wouldn't lie for them. He said he understood, and then went ahead and did it himself. No recriminations came down.
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backlash (Score:1)
One question (Score:1)
Re:Tell them you are spamming people, but DONT rea (Score:1)
add in the company name, phone number, address, president's name, his home phone number, etc.
Mention in the email to have the people give the president a call and tell him what they think. It will get them (your employer) to stop asking you to spam
Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:2)
>the company?
Of course he doesn't! That is why he is asking
>2) Don't forget that it's not your company; you
>are an employee, and it's their way or the
>highway.
WRONG. Any employee is a portion of a company. A company is nothing without employees. Each employee has the responsibility to make sure his company succeeds. Spamming will not help this cause.
You have taken the attitude of many idiotic Americans that work for big businesses, like Microsoft, Sprint, AOL, AT&T, etc. You think that one person cannot change a company, but you are VERY VERY VERY wrong. One person, with the right motivation, can cripple any one of those companies.
>3) You can do the job you are being paid to do.
I do not do any task I morally have problems agreeing with. I don't give a damn if my employer wants me to do this or that, if it is wrong then I will NOT do it.
>Spam is not illegal where you are?
Illegal is different than being banned on the network. Most, if not all, major backbone providers have tough policies against spam.
Stupid people, wake up and fight big business...
x-empt
Tell them you are spamming people, but DONT really (Score:3)
Make them think "spam: bad, it never attracts clients"
Also, tell your ISPs that you are working at a company that only got their Internet connection to spam from.... get the ISP to terminate the account after a few days... get this arranged with their head admin. Make it look totally real.
Ummm.... (Score:1)
Ummm.... (Score:1)
Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:1)
Re:Spam is freedom of speech (Score:1)
Re:Convincing them... (Score:1)
Well, IANAL, but I seem to recall that you can be arrested in one state for a crime committed against the laws of another.
For example, murder (unless of a federal officer or certain other unusual circumstances) is not against federal law, but if I commit a murder in Nevada I can sure as hell be arrested in California for it.
Not no, but HELL NO (Score:1)
DanH
Cavalry Pilot's Reference Page [cavalrypilot.com]
Re:You can do some good (Score:1)
Good idea. CC all of the management team on each out-going mail. If they ask, say its so they can monitor performance and efficacy. Don't forget to put the CEO's real name and personal e-mail address in the Reply-To field.
For a bonus, attach an MS Word document in all of the mail going to the people in management. Something pithy, like a screed on why its not nice to spam. The disks will fill up so fast that way that your system will crash before you can send much spam.
Re:Convincing them... (Score:1)
I'm having a hard time believing this is true. I think you probably have to be doing business in California...
You do, or so says the Supreme Court (more than once). But that won't stop someone from suing you anyway, and even if it gets tossed at the first hearing, it's bloody expensive.
Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:1)
I've fired people for having attitudes like that.
You have taken the attitude of many idiotic Americans that work for big businesses, like Microsoft, Sprint, AOL, AT&T, etc. You think that one person cannot change a company, but you are VERY VERY VERY wrong. One person, with the right motivation, can cripple any one of those companies.
And rightly face criminal prosecution for it.
Re:Convincing them... (Score:2)
Yep. And then be extradited to Nevada to stand trial. California cannot put you on trial for someone you do outside of California; they can only send you back to where the crime was committed.
Likewise, California cannot put you on trial for something you did somewhere else that isn't illegal there. The only trick is making sure you understand where the law says your actions take place.
Spam, spam, eggs, spam, eggs, bacon and spam (Score:1)
Don't tell them, turn them in! (Score:1)
Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:1)
Too bad (Score:1)
Isn't spamming illegal in some states (Score:1)
Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:1)
why stay working there (Score:2)
Re:Convincing them... (Score:2)
I guess the best physical analogy would be if you were standing in California and shot across the border and killed someone in Nevada. I have no idea what would happen with such a case--possibly at that point it would be a federal crime, because state lines were crossed in the commission of a felony? I dunno. But I'm not too hot on localities being able to impose their local laws on any user anywhere in the world.
Bite back (Score:1)
And don't ever mention it, let your boss bring it up, otherwise they might suspect it was you and fire you for some obscure reason.
Re:Ohh this one is easy. (Score:1)
Here's a thought.... (Score:1)
Either that, or have the postmaster forward him all bounced emails.
Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:1)
j/k ;-)
Re:One question (Score:1)
Re:Convincing them... (Score:1)
I'm having a hard time believing this is true. I think you probably have to be doing business in California...
C//
Re:Been there. (Score:1)
I find it sad that you apparently think spam so evil that you were willing to forfeit all of your personal ethics to combat it. Regardless of any justifiction that you were working for the "greater good", you were deeply wrong to give anyone access to the company systems you were trusted with. Not only that, but you were incredibly stupid, as you would've been legally responsible for the incident, and you could've gotten your friend in trouble or been easily caught yourself. If you wanted to do something about the problem and keep your dignity, you should've resigned.
It sounds to me that you and your unscrupulous, spam-happy company were perfectly suited for each other. I hope you grow up and get a little more sense. The fight against unscrupulous spammers doesn't need help from equally unscrupulous, fanatical idiots.
Spam is freedom of speech (Score:2)
But guess what? There is a real cost associated with the KKK marching in DC, or giving some speeches in your hometown. There was also a very real cost when thousands of protesters showed up at the WTO meeting in Seattle.
Re:You can do some good (Score:1)
Comment removed (Score:3)
you are a bad as them (Score:1)
Be a sneak (Score:1)
Re:Convincing Arguments (Score:1)
probably this? (Score:1)
If you value your job (Score:1)
Someone who's already got it in their head to use Spam as a marketing tool is beyond reason.
Dancin Santa
Re:Tell them you are spamming people, but DONT rea (Score:2)
x-empt wrote, "Take the lists of addresses and emails, pretend you are really spamming thousands, while in reality you only spam a couple of accounts (yours and your boss's)... fake the logs"
Oh, that's great! I love it! Except I'd add a few other accounts to the list. How about webmaster@fbi.gov, abuse@aol.com, the webmaster at spam.abuse.net [abuse.net], postmaster@cauce.org, and key individuals at other various law enforcement and anti-spam groups?
I think that might get a little bit of extra action ;)
"...get the ISP to terminate the account after a few days..."
That's even better. And I can't think of an admin that wouldn't do it. Happily.
Convincing them... (Score:5)
I was placed in a similar position when I was CTO of a company and the marketing weenies decided to start a spamathon.
Remember that the main motivator is money when you're dealing with marketing/sales people. If ethics won't sell them on the spam=BAD equation, then use money to do it. I wrote a lengthy memo (I don't recall whether I saved a copy or not) describing the possible negative side-effects of starting a spam campaign.
The primary negative was revenge. Ask them how they'd like to have their 800# shut down by people calling to complain, or how they'd like their main Web site (not just the spam machine) and network compromised and destroyed by anti-spam hackers. Ask how they'd like the fax machine to be constantly busy and out of paper. Ask how they feel about hauling in the lawyers to respond to complaints that they've violated California's anti-spam law (you don't have to be in California--you just have to spam someone in California). Even if they can show they didn't violate the law, it'll cost money to fight it.
When I made this argument to the marketing guy, he said that if someone did that to us, they'd be breaking the law. I told him that wouldn't prevent people from doing it! I also had him read CAUCE [cauce.org] propoganda and other anti-spam materials.
I'm not sure whether he ended up seeing my point, or gave up out of frustration having to deal with me, but he gave up.