Whatever Happened To The Thin X11 Terminals? 39
GregK asks: "Once upon a time (in the fun, fast 80's), you could find a different
kind of X-box, a thin client that ran X!! and did little local
processing. These boxes had a monitor, keyboard, and a thin box
of electronics to communicate on an ethernet port and run an X11 server locally. Whatever happened to this kind of thing? I ask because I'm interested in putting a thin client in my bedroom, and leave my Linux server in the basement. A wireless connection could send the data over the two floors, and in an ideal world I'd have a color LCD monitor (24 bit or more) connected to a wireless transceiver. The monitor would not have a fan or a hard drive, but would be able to run X11. This would let me have an always-on connection without an always-loud presence in my bedroom. Now the best I can come up with is a modified, old laptop with the hard drive ripped out, and a boot disk/CD-R combination that would let the CPU boot and read the X software into memory. But there has to be better! Can anyone help?"
Most pointless story...ever. (Score:2)
Iopener? BookPC? (Score:3)
I have a friend who is selling his. All he did to it was flash the bios. He never hooked up a hard drive or modified the inside.
Of course, if you are looking for a nice flat panel monitor, then don't go with an Iopener.
BookPC - Cheap $300, uses intel 810 (supported by Linux) mother board and has good audio, SVGA and SVideo outputs, Celeron, and a DVD player all in a box the size of a math textbook. This might be ideal for a thin client. Unlike the Iopener, you can use your own monitor.
Linux Terminal Server Project (Score:4)
Anyway http://www.ltsp.org/ is a good place to start looking. They have a list of links which includes http://www.disklessworkstations.com/ (which sells parts and premade). This isnt quite what you're looking for as you want _fanless_ as well as diskless - all of those are basically cut down PCs and have a normal processor with a fan.
They also have instructions for building your own:
http://www.ltsp.org/contrib/fanless_howto.html
as you might guess from the link this is for fanless too. This discusses mostly normal form factor diskless, but a biscuit PC (search for PC-104) might be more like what you're after. As the author says, these are likely to have hardware that's so nonstandard as to be unusable for diskless operation, but its worth a try. Given how these things are used its _very_ likely that someone has built a linux kernel for some PC-104 boards out there. They also usually seem to be very very slow in comparison to similarly priced AT motherboards (because the sales volume is low), but don't let this put you off: your machine doesnt need to be fast.
This lot: http://www.supertek.com.tw/home.htm do thin clients too. Their site is v e r y s l o w.
Re:Most pointless story...ever. (Score:2)
Indeed. Once again, AskSlashdot is used as an excuse to avoid doing even the tiniest bit of legwork. Well, OP, you have succeeded. I did it for you. Since your time is more valuable than anyone else's, you should be pleased to learn that there is an X-terminal (ok, sans monitor and keyboard, but you can fix that) for sale on EBay right at this very moment. Asking $10.50. Go for it. Also, Google would tell you that there are some listed for sale here: http://www.spacestar.net/users/pvaske/TERMINAL.HT
We just cleared our store cupboard... (Score:2)
They came from a lab that now has ten colour Tektronix X-terminals, with 8MB of RAM and 17" monitors.
Tektronix no longer make X-terminals. However, you may find the ones by NCD useful, since thats what we'll probably end up buying to refit the lab next year. www.ncd.com
The only problem you may have with servers in your basement and an X-term in your loft is that its an awful long walk to put a CD or floppy in the drive. And if you want sound, you have to make sure your apps can talk whatever protocol the Xterm uses for sound. Not a problem in our lab where we dont want the students making noises!
Baz
Sun Sparcstation SLC (Score:2)
I recomend a Sun Sparcstation SLC or XLC. It is basically a complete diskless SPARC integrated with a 17" black and white monitor. A plus is that there is no fan involved.
I boot mine from my Linux box using the SLXT [gol.com] package (based on a linux kernel) and it works well. The only downside is that it takes several minutes to boot over the network. There's an (out of date) article about it at http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue27/little.html [linuxgazette.com]
An alternative to SLXT is XKernel [columbia.edu]
Steve.
Still around, but expensive. (Score:2)
I have a brand new (3 months old) NCD NC900 on my desk. Just a simple X server connected to a Sony flat screen montior, running lots of colors (but not enough, I can still get the old color flash when I change windows if I run the right apps)
The bad news: This system is more expensive then a PIII with a good graphics card running linux. Sure it is quiet (but you can get quiet systems if you try. Underclock, big heat sink, no CPU fan, power supply with an adjustable speed fan. (pc power and cooling will set you up with most of this, and they have good quality - worth the cost) IS doesn't like the PC solution though, as they have to manage it, the NCD costs nothing for them to manage, the PC needs more support. (This even though the PCs we have are just X servers, we run all our applications on Sparcs in the server room)
One option: put the pc on the other side of the wall. This might or might not work for you, but it is an option if your cable lenghts won't get too long and you don't mind the restricive placement.
Re:Iopener? BookPC? (Score:1)
Though I couldn't suggest anything better..
Re:Iopener? BookPC? (Score:2)
Along the same lines...
Virgin's Webplayer [larwe.com]. They go for $150 to $200 on eBay these days, but an enterprising person put together a coop to bulk order [digital-penguin.com] surplus and returned units for Boundless [boundless.com]. We ended up ordering almost 400 Webplayers together, and Boundless set the price at $100 each. That opportunity is over, but only time, energy and willingness is stopping anyone else from putting together another order.
People are doing [netbox.be] all sorts of different things with them. I'm sure someone [yahoo.com] is making an X-term.
Use a low-spec PC (Score:2)
There's a Linux distribution (xdenu) that boots from 2 floppies and runs X. I don't know if it's still available - and I'm too lazy to search ;-)
About a year ago I had it running on a 486 with 8MB RAM, S3 graphics card and 3c509 ethernet card. With that little memory it didn't have enough left over to support many apps, but 16MB should do the trick.
Another idea (Score:2)
This is not perhaps a cheap solution, but should be a quiet one.
These days you'll find most thin client machines running gasp! WinCE and Termincla Server/Metaframe clients, but there are still people making X terminals I'm sure.
For example, Wyse [wyse.com] offer X11 as an option on some of their their winterm products.
What else could you try...if a web browser is enough for you then something like a dreamcast might do, although I dunno how easy it is to get broadband support for them.
Oh, I suppose if you don't mind DIY you could run cables from server room to your bedroom. Videk [videk.com], for example (you may have a better local supplier for this sort of thing) make all sorts of little toys: devices to boost the signal so you can use 50m mouse, keyboard and monitor cables; boxes that let you run 1600x1200 video over 120m of twisted pair, etc.
Didn't know they're gone. (Score:3)
You could also take any PC, say, a 486 or better with, say, a 300MB hard drive or a BIOS that supports booting from CD, and throw a Linux or BSD image on it that just boots with DHCP and XDM running.
Or you could buy one of Oracle's $199 New Internet Computers (see thinknic.com) and burn a modified disk image CD that comes up with XDM in broadcast mode instead of doing a local login. Others seem to have done it. You may want to spend a minute or two searching, say, Google or the old Deja archives before asking Slashdot when something is this easy to find.
NCDs (Score:2)
As far as getting one pretty cheap - try university surplus auctions. I know at the university I used to work at, we surplused about 600 of these things - all working.
Elwing
Quadras (Score:1)
anyways, i don't know if there should have been a fan on the chip, but there wasn't when i picked them up (literally from the brink of being trashed) and they seem to run debian m68k just fine. Now, I've had a little problem with the seagate medalist 1 gig drives, but i think it's the drives, not the controller... and i haven't done x on em yet, right now they're just crunching work units for seti@home.
Anyways, you can find these things all day on ebay.
okay - in my fourth-day-of-wakefulness state i just realized that this isn't really an xterminal by any means - you could easily make it one, but you still have to boot macos.
BUT OTOH, it does seem to accomplish the same goals..
of course, there are plenty of modern mac's sans fans.
oh well. back to dozing at work...
Two Words (Score:2)
Re:Most pointless story...ever. (Score:1)
Yes this is a pontless question that a simple google search would answer. However, look at some of the answers!
/. would be better with community moderation of stories not just comments!
They are still around... as NC...sorta (Score:1)
If you want windows, Citrix [citrix.com] has teamed up with NCD to make WinTerms that work with Windows 2000 Term Server.
--
He had come like a thief in the night,
Re:Quadras (Score:1)
Good god man. Haven't you learned yet?
METH DOESN'T SCALE!
I HAVE ONE :):) (Score:1)
Don't forget the webplayer (Score:1)
Don't bother (Score:2)
Cost: X-terminals are cool, but very expensive for what they do. New ones will run you about as much as a fairly high-end x86 box, while used ones will be about the same as a used Pentium MMX type machine.
Colours: Most only support 8-bit colour. That's a real pain in the ass unless all you're running is a bunch of xterms. If you run netscape + other graphical apps, you're bound to either have to deal with a hideous display, or deal with colour flashing when you switch focus. Even if you limit yourself to one colourful app at a time you'll still have to deal with the uglyness of 8-bit colour.
Sound: There *are* protocols for getting sound from a server to some of the NCD x-terminals, but that's yet another headache to deal with.
Software: Even though the hardware is relatively easy to get used, you'll still need an x-server to boot the terminal from. Depending on the model you get, you may have to actually go and buy this, or find an "unscrupulous" copy on the 'net somewhere. Also you'll have to jump through a few hoops to configure your linux box as a boot server, although there is a HOWTO on that floating around somewhere.
Unless you absolutely *need* to have the linux box up 24/7 as a server, I'd recommend just shutting down at night when you don't need it. Sure, you won't be able to claim huge uptimes, but IMO, that's kind of a silly excuse. If you just need a smallish web-server running, do what I did and get an older box and put it in a closet somewhere; I've got an old 486 running apache and mysql for some web stuff, and it works great for what I need. My desktop box (which *is* in my bedroom right now) gets turned off at night. This also helps with the power-bill slightly.
Re:Another idea (Score:1)
Re:Linux Terminal Server Project (Score:2)
Or if you don't mind a minimal window manager just use a 486 (80+ MHz is probably best). Most 486en don't need cpu fans, a good heatsink will do. Heck, I've run a p150 without a fan on it's (quite large) heatsink and it was ok (note that it was originally designed this way, that MB and cpu came out of a name-brand PC).
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org [geekaustin.org]
ThinkNIC.. (Score:2)
Re:Another idea (Score:1)
SunRay (Score:1)
Sun Rays have all sorts of neat features, like Hot Desking. This means, you pull your smartcard out of machine A and plug it into machine B. Up comes your StarOffice document like you never got up off your seat! In fact, you never even "log out". It keeps your session open.
Of course, the only problem with the whole bunch of kit is that it is only economical for upwards of 25 users.
Re:SunRay (Score:1)
It isn't silent... but (Score:1)
This machine is SILENT. The fan noises from my pc keep me awake, this machine makes no noise, except the IDE hard drive chunks around a bit when there is a network connection.
The UltraSPARC IIc does not require a fan, so there is alot less ambient noise than what you get from a modern PIII or Athlon.
As far as performance goes, it is pretty quick. I benchmarked some of my company's apps on it against a bunch of $5k ultra-10's and it beat them by a small margin.
Cost is like $1025 with a keyboard kit and Solaris 8 media kit. Well worth it.
PC/104 (Score:1)
Re:Iopener? BookPC? (Score:1)
Re:Don't bother (Score:2)
Re:Linux Terminal Server Project (Score:1)
Re:SunRay (Score:1)
Only if you're running 10 or 20 of them with compute-heavy users. Otherwise, the SPARC you've already got at home should be fine. We use the Sun Rays at work and they are completely quiet. I plan to add an Ethernet card to my home Ultra 5 and plug in a few Sun Rays ($300 each) around the house.
Currently I address the noise problem by using 10-meter keyboard and video cables and locking the computer in a spare room.
Re:Iopener? BookPC? (Score:1)
Just e-mail me please.
And take the
Re:SunRay (Score:1)
Does the server-side software come with the ray, or does it have to be purchased seperately.
I can think of alot of uses for these thingys at work.
X got too fat.. (Score:2)
Many window managers, desktop environments and graphical applications put more strain on X's networked architecture than it can handle, leading to (even more) sluggish performance compared to what you get running apps locally.
Youre better off buying a real PC for less $$$ and running apps remotely from that if you need to, as well as being able to run bandwidth-intensive apps locally.
X Terminal != Network Computer (Score:2)
There seem to be a few ASCII terminals still in production, which says something about the tenacity of legacy technology. But the whole concept of a dedicated terminals runs up against a basic economic fact: it's cheaper to build a workstation capable of emulating a terminal than it is to build a terminal. Counterintuitive, but true. Workstations are a mass commodity, and benefit from economies of scale. This was already true when the first X Terminals were manufactured. So X Terminals never got popular enough to accumulate the inertia that ASCII terminals still seem to have.
The "thin client" fad that was so big a couple years ago was a completely different animal. These were not "terminals" in any sense. They were simply a specialized kind of diskless workstation.
So get a quiet PC. It's doable. Use IDE disks instead of SCSI. Use acoustic enclosures and drive sleeves, and low-noise power supplies. Quietpc.com has some interesting stuff.
It's too bad we seem to be stuck with internal power supplies -- blowing away their own heat the way they do is not very efficient. A long time ago, I worked for the old Convergent Technologies, the pre-PC company that mostly made workstations for Burroughs/Unisys. One of their nicest jobs was the NGen [lycanthrope.org], a system which used only modular (no one-size-fits-all), external, fanless, silent power supplies. Of course, the NGen was also a proprietary platform, which is why you never heard of it.
__________________
Re:ThinkNIC.. (Score:1)
The CD that ships with the NIC is a custom (Debian-based, IIRC) Linux install. If you don't like the limitiations it includes (it's configured as a plug-n-play web browser, so a lot of things are missing or inaccessible), copy the CD's contents to another machine's hard drive, modify the contents, turn it into an ISO, and burn your own NIC CD.
flashdrive (Score:1)