What is the Value of an MBA to a Techie? 286
Kengineer asks: "I've heard a lot of hype about techies with MBA's being in high demand. I'm an Engineer who does validation for a Voice over IP company, and before that I coded software projects for a controls automation company. I am considering returning to school to seek an MBA, so I'd like to hear from those of you 'dotters who already have buisness degrees, and your post-MBA experiences."
The real meaning of degrees (Score:1)
MS == more shit
PhD == Piled high deep in shit
MBA == my shit doesn't stink cause I is so smart.
In my experience people with degrees of any kind, especially MBA's are unwilling to listen to anyone else if they do not have a high level degree. Making dumb decisions etc etc, they just are not very smart when it comes to real world things.
Re:Dumb question.... (Score:1)
Re:Dumb question.... (Score:2)
The degree has to be *relevant*. An MBA may not be relevant for this person.
I went to college. A good one too, or so people, the U, and the media is rather fond of telling me (U of Chicago). I got honors in both the college (overall coursework) and my concentration.
And let me tell you--it's a damn letdown that you find you blew 4 years from the prime of your life for a piece of paper, learning what others tell you, when you could have spent more time learning and applying than staying up to 2 in the morning because you couldn't find a freed up laundry machine in the dorm's basement.
A college degree does not show you are smarter, anymore than a professional degree does. I know several people that didn't go to college until they were in their 30s, and then when they did, they whooped some serious ass against the young ones. A degree simply shows that you may have more technical knowledge in a field, something an employer or higher education may find necessary or appealing. People find degrees comforting, a validation of themself or for someone else. I'd rather hunt for the person that knows what they are doing, not a piece of paper.
Anyways, the reason for this rant is to point out that those getting MBAs going into a technical field is because it gives them a leg up. Degrees are the social equivalent of an arms race. Who has the highest degree wins. Like MDs who get their MPHs (Masters in Public Health). Or JDs (lawyers) who want to work with hospital administrators getting jointly their HSMP degrees (Health Science Management Programs). It separates you from the field, gives you an extra degree of notice. If enough people do it, at some point, you cannot get a job unless you have the extra education. It doesn't matter if it's relevant or necessary to the job, it's simply that the base expectation has risen.
I am a firm believer that education is always good, but at some point, you have to realize that higher education has a signficant private component--it is also a money-generating machinery who'd love EVERYONE to pay them $25,000 a year for each of their 2-4 year degree programs (and sometimes get returns for the cheap labor and intellectual property that you give them). Raise the standard, they make more money.
Not to mention that with the proliferation of degrees, some people may become simply sensitized to them. Years ago, an MD/PhD holder was rare, now it's difficult not to run into one. Further, consider the divide that's created--really only the upper middle class has the need and reserves to drive for multiple degrees. Where does that leave the poorer individuals that don't have the cash reserves that mommy and daddy will leave them or support them (e.g. rent/food) while in school? Not all schools have the grants to pay the student to attend; students pay them now.
Re:Forget the MBA. Here's proof. (Score:2)
and we know that
Time=Money
And going further, since:
MBA = Time x Money
therefore:
MBA = Money x Money = (Money)^2
and because money is the root of all evil:
Money = SQR(Evil)
Therefore:
MBA = (SQR(Evil))^2
We can conclude:
MBA = Evil
Amazingly, the same applies to women.
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
A MBA was created for Engineers and CS types that are ignorant of actual business methods. I've worked with many CS people at a Mortgage company I did a conversion for and they couldnt understand the system they were trying to program. This is where an MBA comes in handy (as well as advancement in companies)
Re:Dumb question.... (Score:2)
Not really - He's asking specifically if techies with MBAs are really in high demand and the kind of experience people who already have MBAs have had.
Unfortunately, he doesn't mention where he wants to go from where he is now - if he wants to continue doing the same kind of work he does now, but maybe make a little more, he's probably going the wrong direction. He's more likely to price himself out of jobs. Having too high a degree is sometimes worse than not having one at all.
If he wants to go into management, then he's probably on the right track. Then again, it could be that an MBA is a waste of money - hence, asking for other techies experiences.
Read before you post.
Re:No context about the firing. (Score:2)
("troll" shouldn't even be on the list of moderation categories, given that you have to measure a person's sincerity to truly know if he is trolling or just being brutally honest about his opinions. A judgement of "troll" requires that you either look at lots of what the alleged troll has written or that you can read his mind. You really can't tell if someone is trolling from just looking at one post. His opinions, no matter how inflamitory and silly, might be sincere.)
Re:not always so... (Score:2)
Yeah, but general socio-economic rules start to break down when you're James Gosling.
Re:It's a great way to move to management. (Score:2)
It is the most extreme irony to see a manager complaining about how engineers can have negative productivity. Good lord. Managers founded the very institution of negative productivity.
A bad engineer can slow some companies down. Bad management sinks entire companies every day.
I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that MOST managers are employed, Peter-pricipal-style, above their level of competence. This is not the case with engineers.
Re:MBA. Why? (Score:2)
Business Week or Wall Street Journal top 20 MBA list. Actually, Harvard hasn't been on top of any of those lists for quite a while.
Now, I am NOT commenting here on the value of an MBA, nor trying to reopen the discussion of the value of learning something vs. having a piece of paper that says you have learned it (although both Competitive Strategy and Labor Economics courses discuss why this seemingly "stupid" behaviour is quite rational).
I AM saying that if you are going to sell your soul to the dark side, it is best to sell it to one of the top ten on those two lists. And again, Labor Economics can help you understand why.
sPh
Re:Harvard Equivalent (Score:2)
sPh
Re:MBA. Why? (Score:4)
Based on my experience (MBA from a Harvard equivalent), if you want to work for yourself you would be better off to take a few semesters of Intro Accounting (so you understand the finance lingo) and Business Law at a local community college, then just go start your business.
MBAs are more useful for working in established organizations, or stepping in to provide adult supervision once the person with the new idea/startup drive hits the wall in terms of organization and management.
MBAs don't much help with having the idea or (dare I say it) the entrepreneural spark.
sPh
Your view of work and organizations (Score:5)
That depends on your view of work and organizational behaviour. If you truely believe in the creed of the Second Dilbert Era (that is, Dilberts penned after Scott Adams left his day job):
* All "managers" are idiots
* Resource allocation and setting priorities are useless functions
* All problems have one correct answers
* Per the second and third points, project management and conflict resolution are just political wastes of time
* Marketing departments are only good as sources of dating prospects
then you won't find much use in an MBA. Similarly, if it is very important to you to stay current with a detailed technical speciality (say router network design), you will have a very hard time finding a management job that lets you do that.
If you are interested in learning more about how and why organizations are structured, why people behave as they do, and how to handle resource allocation and project management, then an MBA could be useful to you. Or if you would like to catch up on some of the non-engineering techncial skills, such as financial theory.
However, based on many years of observing technical people and managers, I think there are very few techies who are really interested in, or would really like, jobs in management.
sPh
I value MBA and PhD's less (Score:2)
Practical experience and knowledge versus "This is the way it was written in the Lieberman-Dostoyevsky-Chou book!"
--
Where MBA programs fail (Score:3)
The bigest of these is that you do not have understand the process that you are managing.
If management is the process of making decisions about a project and allocating resources to complete that project, then you have to have some rational understanding of what is involved in that project. (Otherwise you can be replaced by a random number generator. Probably with better results.)
What happens with managers who do not have that requisite clue is that they make decisions based on "other criteria". (Things like "how good of an ad does the vendor have", "The product the airline magazine recommended", or "which one had the prettier marketing rep".)
Harvard MBAs are the worst of the lot. They are the ones who seem to have started the trend that clueless managers are a good thing.
And heaven forbid that you actually work for a company run by someone who taught in the MBA program! (*cough*NCD*cough*) It is guarenteed that they will drive your company into the ground.
Dilbert exists because this style of "management" has become the accepted norm.
Management has been used as a place to put all of those oxygen-robbing morons who had the fortune to be born to a good family, but not the brains to go into a trade that would really require actual thought. (Like criminal lawyer (redundant, I know), oilwell salesman, or brothel owner.)
And it seems the less you know about the business and what it does, the higher you will rise in the company.
Makes you wonder just how American businesses survive at all. (And judging by the dot-coms, we have our answer...)
Well, (Score:3)
MBA good for getting funded (Score:2)
Of course, getting funding for a start-up is getting pretty tough, MBA or not.
An MBA doesn't mean you're hot stuff - it shows that you at least have a half a clue about how business works. Without actual management experience, it is not worth much. But add to it management experience, and building a successful team, and you've got something.
Not everything is related to money, or management (Score:3)
Okay, I admit, I am a geek.
And yes, okay, I also admit that I love money.
But if I have to be truthful to myself, not everything I do, I do for money. And not everything I do, I do for the "management" reason.
I have a Master degree in Computer Engineering, and I have just gotten my MBA degree.
The first degree I got, I got it because I was too deep into the computer stuffs - really addicted - and I might as well get something for the time and effort that I have invested in the field.
And about the MBA I got - I got it not solely because of money, but rather, - I got it because I realize that being a geek may be cool, but sometimes, I need to have the ability to look at things not only from the geek standpoint.
In other words, I may be able to come up with a cool software/tech project, but if I don't have the ability to gauge what the market wants, my time/effort for that project will ultimately NOT be fully utilize by the society at large.
If I do something, I might rather do something that will be used by more people than myself, right?
If so, why don't I gain the ability to see what the market at large wants, and then do something that will be acceptable for them - maybe, at the same time, help them (whoever use the product) in their daily lives.
That is why I got my MBA - to see the world from a DIFFERENT point of view.
Seeing a the wider picture (Score:4)
I decided to take an MBA for a number of reasons. Basically, I'd come to the realisation that although I was a competent software engineer, I was never going to excel at it. I was self-taught, and not driven or brilliant enough to make it to the excellence in engineering. I was also getting frustrated with being told "put this in, take this out" by managers who I really didn't reckon had a clue _why_ they were saying what they were saying. So, I took the plunge, and decided to take a broader view - which meant moving into management.
Of course, I could have moved into management without going with an MBA - good software companies are always keen to find people who can talk to techies and customers - but I was very aware that I really didn't have the frameworks to talk to people outside the discipline in which I'd trained. How do marketing people look at the world? How do finance people calculate future gains? What about HR, Operations, Strategy? I'm genuinely interested to make a difference to the business I'm in, and knowing how it works, and how different types of people think it works, can only help.
So, I'm taking an MBA, and I have to say that it's been very useful. I _can_ see the wider picture, but at the same time, I'm still in a position to talk to the tech folks and, I hope, retain their respect. They know that I've been there, and despite their ragging that I've moved into Marketing, at least I can appreciate their point of view, which can be very helpful.
Conclusions? As a "straight techy", I'm not sure how useful an MBA would have been to me, but as a manager who thinks tech, it has been, and continues to be, absolutely invaluable. Think about why you might do it, and what you might gain, and if it makes sense for you, and you have the time and resources to apply yourself, then go for it.
Not zero but not much unless you're Big5 material (Score:4)
The point is that we work in an industry that does not typically value advanced non technical degrees - unless - and this is a narrow use of it - to specifically get into a Big5 consulting hiring program which is specifically targetted at those people. If you get into a program like that then EVERYONE will have an MBA so it's pretty much just a door opener and a wash
Re:different view (Score:2)
- Have a high proportion of headcount in engineering.
- Have a CTO with a lot of de facto power--ideally a founder.
- Have marketing and biz-dev organisations that demonstrate a deep understanding of the relevant technologies.
- Keep the hiring/interview process for engineers within the engineering department as much as possible, with the bulk of the interviews given by midlevel-to-senior peers.
That paints a reasonably accurate picture of most of the companies I've worked for in the last five years. Some of those have succeeded and some haven't--but the ones that failed didn't fail because of technological insufficiency. If you value individual and collective self-respect, that's an important thing.MBA (Score:2)
Many times along the road I have had problems that I did not forsee, that in retrospect were pretty obvious. A MBA may not teach you everything you need to know about running a business, managing, etc. But it should help you to see where the gaps in your knowledge are before you hit them rather than in retrospect...
My first business went out of business because I made a simple mistake on a contract. I screwed up because I simply didn't realize some basic business principles. With my current business, I have jumped into the water blind again, though I have learned a great deal.
Anyway, my point is that with a MBA in order to reach the point I am now probably would have taken 2-4 years rather than the 10 years that I have so far invested. You will be exposed to a larger divercity of problems and resolutions, which will help you avoid costly mistakes in advance rather than having to deal with them retro-actively.
My advice if you plan on pursuing a management job, thinking about starting your own business, or something similiar, is to get the MBA.
Lando
Money and nuts (Score:4)
And of course it's much easier to move into a management position if you have an MBA.
Otherwise, when a programmer reaches a certain age, he/she gets kicked in the proverbial nuts and sent on their way. (Or so I've read)
Re:Techie MS vs MBA (Score:2)
This is just plain wrong. (Score:2)
Anyways, I have a degree in Finance and I'm seriously considering getting an MBA, and not because I love school [I happen to think that much of it is redundant, unnecessary, or flaky]. Stupid? Hardly. Maybe if you want to work in a staff position your entire life it's fine, but for many of the better paying / more rewarding jobs out there, it's extremely helpful.
Re:not always so... (Score:2)
Currently, i can sit in on just about any meeting, and understand what each side is saying, and translate to the other side. And when IT in my company tells me what's being asked for isn't possible, i'm able to show them that it is actualyl possible, and not even that hard.
Diversity diversity diversity.
IT has commoditized itself - the only way to stand out is to diversify.
And experience trumps all, in my book and from my accounts. I'm 25 now, part of the work force since 18, and am the only person of less than 30 in the company of over 80 employees...
So, yes, diversify, but don't put too much faith into a piece of paper. People want to see real world accomplishments much more today than they do a piece of paper...
Re:MBA. Why? (Score:2)
Comparing your experience from 3 years ago to today is mostly useless. Money was free back then, everyone was eager to find the next big thing, and you barely had to say that you knew anything but "computers" in order to get a decent job.
Well, it wasn't that easy. But lets' see you take that $700 today and turn it into $30,000 in your checking account a year from now. No offense, but it's different times...
More valuable than an MA/MS in Economics? (Score:2)
be compared to an MA/MS in Econ. Yes, I know they're not
the same thing... just curious if anyone has any
ancetdotal or actual info about salaries, employability...
Or what about something closer to running a business,
like Operations Research?
--
Re:Not zero but not much unless you're Big5 materi (Score:2)
pray tell, did you get this?
My biggest problem with an MBA is that I fear it's
not going to quantitative enough. My undergrad is Math.
I added the Math Ed option for the heck of it and found
the glittering generalities that pass for curriculum
in teacher training to be either self evident or suspect. I'm worried that
MBA curriculum would be much the same way.
Bu combine a serious examination of financial markets and hard quantitative analysis and I could get interested.
--
Re:Depends... (Score:2)
The only problem with an MBA is that it doesn't teach you how to react to things that aren't in figures. I am sure most successful entrapaneurs have a good grasp of the job they are doing and will take certain actions inspite of what the figures say. One example is Pokemon. Pokemon is something that shouldn't have worked according to most business analysts, but Nintendo seemed to see something that figures weren't revealing and went ahead anyhow.
I must admit one thing that gets me about the MBA is all that writing and math. Although I am not good at math, I have what I would call a feeling to what the result should be, and I am sure that there are a fair few people share this ability - sometimes its simply a matter of relaxing and letting your brain's natural calculator work for you.
Re:Outlook? Gimme a break! (Score:2)
From your comment, I'm assuming you think a requirements document that employs the words "paradigm shift" and "quality oriented" and "customer centric" is an informative one?
Either that, or it was another of your trolls.
Sometimes I can't tell where you stand - but your posts are always exciting!
Re:It's a great way to move to management. (Score:4)
How bully for you. I have many friends who make TON of money at companies that make a TON of money peddling shoddy products to people that have lots of cash by convincing them that their product works well enough to keep them from jumping ship to a competitor.
How? By having managers more concerned with single source lockin, rabid copyright and IP hoarding, armies of lawyers, and a minimal underpaid (and underqualified) engineering staff.
For your information, while the management team is perfectly happy, and the CEO is flying around in his corporate jet, the rest of the company just does barely enough to stay employed to get their next paycheck.
Sorry if my original post gave you the wrong impression.
What, that you are a deluded, narcissistic, shallow, greedy, concieted prick who enjoys putting down other people by stifling their creativity all while making sure you are surrounded by people who don't make you feel insecure and stupid?
No, that came through fine the first time.
Re:MBA. Why? (Score:2)
So, as with any education, the degree doesn't matter, but the school, the classes, and the instructors do matter.
Re:In Response To Inquiries II (Score:3)
Look at the cost of the MBA. Now figure out the FMV of the money (it's in the finance book if you don't know). Now, take that same amount of money, and figure the FMV invested at... 8% (or some other figure that you think you could invest money at today).
Now, for the really fun part. Do the same, but figure in the salary differentials. Lower your salary for the next 2-3 years to compensate for time spent in school. But raise it for the year immediately afterward and into the future.
Take all of these things together, and see where you will be better off in 5, 10, 20 years. (ie, invest the money you would spend on education in the stock market, or spend it and get the ROI)
Having done this, you are an accountant. Decide if the money and career change are worth the time lost to family. Now you are a businessman.
go forth grasshopper...
Forget the MBA. Here's proof. (Score:4)
Since we know that
Knowlege=Power
and we know that
Time=Money
we can go back to high school to get
Work=Power/Time
Substituting variables we get
Work=Knowledge/Money
Now solving for Money we get
Money=Knowledge/Work
This tells us that the more you know, the more money you will make, but you must keep work to an absolute minimum to increase profits. As every MBA will tell you, skip the MBA and enjoy being a low-paid hard worker that knows nothing. It just means less work and more money for them!
(Shamelessly paraphrased from Dilbert's Salary Theorem)
MBA = How to hack organisations (Score:3)
An MBA will teach you the basics of how to hack organisations. Little things, like whether the head of development reports to the CTO or CEO, can make a big difference to how the organisation performs. Getting hundreds of people moving in the same direction is a non-trivial challenge.
I'm taking a Masters with my employer. Its labelled an "MSc", but the content has a lot of MBA-type stuff in it as well. I keep coming across senior managers in my work who think in MBA rather than Hacker, and I need to know how to talk to them. If I could talk to the animals, learn their languages, what a neat achievement that would be... (with apologies to Rex Harrison).
Paul.
MBA : Master Bullshit Artist (Score:2)
What do you expect to get out of a MBA? Just more money? There are other routes to doing that. Unless your ambition is to aspire to a top-level executive position in a large, established corporation (haha) then I wouldn't bother with it, unless you want more pretty letters after your name.
I have my engineering degree now, and at this juncture, I can't see going back to school aside from learning something really technical and exotic that required signifigant lab time and resources. If I was to go into business, most of the people here have witnessed how NOT to manage, if you haven't, then you're a lucky soul indeed. Most of that managerial crap can be picked up through reading the textbooks - it REALLY isn't rocket science. The only benefit to doing a MBA will be to make contacts - and again, in a technical field, I'm not sure how valuable those MBA contacts are going to be.
YMMV. The subject pretty much sums up my analysis of (most) MBA's..
MBA Benefits - Goals Matrix: Executive Overview (Score:2)
If you have the urge to understand what happens to cause requirements changes, get the MBA. You'll be happier.
If you think the highest goal is to guide systems through long, graceful, and profitable business lifetimes, get the MBA and use it wisely. You'll be happier, those who pay you will be happier, your bank account will be happier.
(signed: BA in CSci + MBA)
Re:It's a great way to move to management. (Score:2)
Dive Gear [divingdeals.com]
Re:Just don this sock puppet ... (Score:2)
Income maximation? (Score:2)
It's Life-long education, not the MBA that matters (Score:5)
Now on to education. BA Management. BS Computer Science. And an MBA (no emphasis, but Marketing is more my focus than Finance.) I've started three businesses, have worked for three multinationals (Philips, HP, Reuters) and even worked for the United Nations for 8 years, building secure Internet infrastructure. I now own and run a small business, doing consulting and building web sites for fun and profit (http://www.lanifex.com [lanifex.com]) in Vienna, Austria.
What have I learned from my MBA? Well, lots of great stuff. Finance of course. Marketing, especially Global focus. Strategy, analysis, HR, communications, etc. And from all this stuff, I've distilled three things that matter:
- Life-long learning is an attitude.
- It's the people that matter.
- It's not all in books
Bottom line: if you're willing to put in the effort, an MBA is certainly a good thing to acquire for geeks, or even non-geeks. But remember it's the journey that matters, and what you learn and how you change along the way, and not the certificate at the end. Never, ever stop learning, until the Harrower calls time -- and even then, you might learn something new!Start learning, and never stop. It doesn't really matter whether you study for an MBA, or Origami, but keep learning. You'll improve your own life, and that of the people around you.
When you do a classroom MBA (which I did) you make a lot of great contacts. These are the people who will help you in future business. Cherish them.
You can learn some theory from the books, but the best way to learn is by trying things, and see what works for you. Leadership is innate, although you can learn a few tricks.
--
Paul Gillingwater
Re:It's a great way to move to management. (Score:3)
If the only reason you like your management job is so you can fire passionate employees, I either say you can have your damn management job, or I hope to God I can get a management position to keep another guy like you from taking charge.
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Re:Money and nuts (Score:2)
I agree (Score:2)
I have been considering a MBA lately. I have been thinking that being a techie w/a MBA could open doors in the future that I cannot think of right now, especially if my interests change (which is highly likely, considering I'm only 23). The only thing that is causing me *not* to jump right in and get my MBA is that I am not sure if I want the commitment of work and night school.
That's all... just wanted to say that I agreed
different view (Score:2)
I would assert that if there more techies who did become managers, then our view of managers may change.
Just my $0.02...
Re:Money and nuts (Score:2)
Especially if you can expect a $10k increase in any of the next few years that you would not see otherwise.
Re:What do you want out of life? (Score:2)
it's true that if you get into a postion where your MBA would be useful you'll do less technical work, that's absolutely true. if you absolutely love geeking out then it really wouldn't be your thing. however you shouldn't fall into the assumption that the only thing you can do as an MBA is to go into management. there are lots of other career options for business people! you can do marketing for technical products, technical sales, strategic marketing or business development.
sure you may have some people under you in many cases, but if you're the director of business development of a medium-sized tech company it's very plausible that you'd work on your own to develop strategic partnerships for your company and report directly to the CEO. management is nowhere in this equation. there's much more to business than just management, but most slashdot geeks don't seem interested enough to leave their cubicles for 10 seconds to learn the alternatives. that's fine if you're not interested, but please don't spread complete nonsense to those that might want to learn what an MBA can really provide.
- j
MBAs for techies (Score:5)
an aside: it's quite apparent that many slashdot users could really benefit from aquiring some business knowledge simply by the way marketing people are regarded by most people here. ;)
but anyhow, if you have any aspirations of getting out of a generic cubicle job, your best bet is to learn a little about business. while experience is great, ultimately you need a starting point and that's what a good MBA can provide. it'll give you the fundamental knoweldge of how finance, marketing, sales and business development work, and hopefully a base that you can apply to your learning on the job.
having a technical degree is useful, but if you can pull off both a technical degree and have an MBA you'll be absolutely golden. if you're one of those people who can be techincally-minded and yet convey your thoughts easily to others then you may really enjoy taking an MBA as well as learning a lot from the experience. engineering is great, but ultimately it takes the business infrastructure to market and sell a product. of course, to do this properly those in sales and marketing have to have a good understanding of the technology they're pushing or you get the "clueless marketroid" symptom so often discussed here slashdot. this is where techies with MBAs come in, and there's a real need for this.
from a personal perspective, if you're the type of techinical person that also love to interact with other people then ultimately you'd be very happy taking an MBA. i personally work in marketing at a semiconductor company that produces microprocessor companion chips for the embedded market. i get to work on some interesting geek projects, such as working with embedded Linux, but i also get included in the strategic product roadmap, sales, and partnership aspects of the company. personally i much prefer this to the ASIC design or coding that i was doing in previous jobs, and of course none of this would be possible without some kind of knowledge of business.
many will say that you can get into these kinds of positions without any formal business training, but i'd argue that the MBA is still extremely important. in addition to giving you basic knowledge and the piece of paper to prove it, the most important thing that many people ignore is that a lot of business is about building relationships with other people. to that end, i can't stress enough how important it is to go to a proper business school! the people you meet during your MBA may very well be some of the best business contacts you ever meet in your life.
all in all i'd say that if you think you'd enjoy the work, go get an MBA. it's an extremely useful carreer move, especially for the technically minded.
- j
Re:Your view of work and organizations (Score:2)
Resource Allocation, priority setting, "management" are all good things. However, when they are done poorly, then it is often worst than having none at all being done. Dilbert shows quite well a company where management is stupid.
In fact, scott adams books pose some interesting ideas on why this is the case, and why much management is bad management. He never says that management can't be good, or isn't needed - but rather that the people thrust into the position of doing it are usually incompetent.
> However, based on many years of observing
? technical people and managers, I think there
> are very few techies who are really interested
> in, or would really like, jobs in management.
I think this is the real problem. Hell, I don't want to be a manager. Hell no, the very idea of it bores me to death.
Of course, you really have to be a techie to manage techies effectivly. That has been my, albeit limited, experience. Those who are real geeks and can manage tend to be excellent managers. Those who are not reral geeks and try to manage them...well... are just PHBs.
-Steve
Meme-borg (Score:2)
MBA = Network and Shared Experiences (Score:5)
Now, an MBA from a top program is a different animal. At those programs, you will be in the program with career executives needing the MBA for the next level, people changing careers after a reasonable degree of success, and people coming from well-known companies out of a pre-MBA job (the grunts in consulting firms, investment banking, etc).
Can you learn this all from business by paying attention? Probably not. Say you spend 5 years in business, you have your experiences. At an MBA program, you are involved with other people with DIFFERENT experiences. You exchange knowledge and learn as a result.
MBA programs aren't like engineering schools. Sleeping through classes and reading the book (my approach, sadly, as an undergrad) won't help you get anything out of the program. If you want the "degree" this may be all you need, but you won't have benefited from it.
These programs focus on networking and shared experiences. When you go out for drinks with your classmates at HBS (Harvard Business School), Sloan (MIT's b-school), Wharton (Penn's), etc., you are also meeting people with a wide range of connections. If you do a good job of keeping in touch (which is a prerequisite for business in general) you have a varied group of people to contact.
Someone that codes all day in the company they joined at 15 and dropped out of high school for won't have these advantages. I know plenty of people that can code circles around MIT CS grads that don't have a high school degree. However, if they need to find someone that knows about the steel industry for a proposal for a contract job, they don't have their friend in Pittsburgh that is a VP at a large Steel company to pick their brains.
An MBA is very different from more traditional educational experiences. If you want it, you should know what you are investing time in. If you want to take accounting and finance classes, go take four classes locally and save a fortune.
Regards,
Alex
Re:Sure it would help... (Score:2)
Re:MBA's are for techs who want to be PHB's (Score:2)
Note those lines, and read them carefully! They warn you the very essense of MBA's - You end up as a manager. We all know how horrible mannagers are - they were not (all) born that way, the education and work experience turned them into assholes! It takes an unusually sever case of masochism to knowingly choose that road, especially if you already are moving in a better technical direction!
Awfully Generic Question (Score:2)
MBA programs offer a lot of different opportunities. For example, the courses cover accounting, organizational politics, marketing, negotiation, etc.
If you obtain a position where you need to be able to read a balance sheet, motivate employees, build credibility with higher management, negotiate, yada, yada, you can learn valuable things in the MBA program and apply them to your job. (If you think such things are irrelevant to techies, consider that if techies were better armed to deal with organization politics, the space shuttle Challenger might never have exploded.)
Apart from MBA-defined career tracks, such as investment banking, most of the opinions I have heard prefer a weekend/evening MBA program where you improve skills called upon for either the job you have or the promotion you want.
Therefore, you are probably better off asking yourself where you want to go, and then seeing if an MBA program supplies the missing elements. You can do the cost-benefit analysis as to whether the improvement in career track is worth the time and expense you would have to invest.
Re:Just don this sock puppet ... (Score:2)
Now then, if you're smart, it can help you. Not too much, more than anything else you'll just benefit from having the certificate, but you will learn things. And it will help you get promoted. Up to you whether it's worth it...
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
MBA + tech experience = clue (Score:2)
also ... (Score:2)
because there tends to be so much cross-over in online business companies that can find a jack-of-all trades type of employee can easily save them the cost of trying to select individual employees that then have to constantly collaborate to succeed.
_f
Re:motivation (ins and outs) (Score:2)
The MBA gives the same creds that techie certifications. It mains you knew enough to take and pass tests, but is not proof that you will cut it in the real stuff.
I don't want to start a certification/degree vs. experience debate here. But, an MBA from a top tier business school actually gives you hands on experience to help you make the cut. Sure, some people will slip though, but an MBA is much better than just taking a few tests. It is like a two year long hands-on project course.
Simple more $$$$ (Score:2)
Re:Dumb question.... (Score:2)
If you work in a large company then it is possible to get the company to pay for your MBA. In fact I am doing precisely this. They're even paying for my books. It's a pretty sweet deal. So my total expenditure is zero. The classes are interesting and a nice change from software design. After a couple of years when I finish I will get a promotion or a raise.
Don't forget.... (Score:2)
We've (geeks) always known the intelligence level of the average MBA holder, now, with everything going down the tubes, maybe the rest of society will figure it out.
Re:It's a great way to move to management. (Score:2)
If so, so what? You should take the good advice in stride. If you have to deliver crap, then fine, just tell him "I'm considering your ideas but the client doesn't want anything else". Sure he'll probably still bitch and whine, but only to himself. Now if his productivity is still good, big deal. If not, well, that's the real reason to get rid of him -- not because he likes Open Source.
Re:It's a great way to move to management. (Score:2)
If your idea of logic is exemplified by "I know for a fact I could have", then I wouldn't want you working on any project of mine.
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Observe:
Linux is free = Linux is available at no cost
I'll just hack Apache = I'll leverage prior efforts and decrease our time to market.
Kiss my ass = I think you should reprioritize my primary action items.
etc. If you know how they talk, you can understand how they think, and use thta to your advantage. But beware the dark side. Pretty soon you might say something like "I believe this solution will allow us to leverage our synergies across markets!" ...and actually mean it.
Re:Don't forget.... (Score:2)
What do you want out of life? (Score:2)
An MBA means that you'll likely be promoted into a management position; remember, the BA stands for Business Administration.
If management sounds interesting, go for it; if management doesn't sound interesting, then don't go for it. It's mostly about what you want.
In terms of a techie with an MBA and a techie without one, the one with the MBA will generally get better pay, but will work with tech less.
Hope the advice helps!
Value of MBA (Score:2)
Can be good, but think twice. (Score:2)
What do you want?
Business or engineering?
If you do the MBA, you'll probably get either directly into management, or will in a pretty short time.
IOW if you like to stay in techland, forget it.
If you have had enough of technical details, try the MBA.
If you are in it for the money only, choose also MBA.
Some of the people I started the study with did MBA, I didn't. And in retrospect, I'm happy I didn't.
But it worked out pretty well for them too.
Re:Money and nuts (Score:2)
Really, there's no guarantee in any job, but the best protection you have, is being great at what you do. This means keeping up with the latest methods, being productive and keeping yourself just within radar range every once in a while to get noticed.
Re:Money and nuts (Score:2)
Which kind of leads into an off-topic but recent issue on Slashdot of unions in IT-- if we had a union representing developers, that union could negotiate retirement plans, and methods to keep older employees from being, as you colorfully stated, "kicked in the proverbial nuts and sent on their way".
Mind you, I'm not 100% pro-union, I can see the problems involved with them, but not all unions have to be the same, and certainly an IT union wouldn't because of the vastly different employment environment. =)
hmm.. (Score:2)
Control Algorithms/Devices: Become an Engineer
Control People: Become an MBA
Control Both: Get Both
Control Everything: What are you doing here? Go get every degree thats available.
Re:Your view of work and organizations (Score:3)
it seems to me that the most important function of an MBA is to allow you to get behind the mindsets of the people in executive positions, so that you know exactly how to present that expensive PO which is so vital for the stability of your systems. *saying* it is vital for the stability of your systems doesn't seem to work very well.
Depends... (Score:5)
I think anybody who goes into something like this specifically trying to be a "more desireable" employee is going to be disappointed.
There is a guy here at work who wants to get his MBA. He's not the most technical person, although he thinks differently (don't they always) and he feels that getting an MBA will make him a more sought after person. What he doesn't realize is that he could get all the degrees in the world, pass all the certifications, etc...as long as he's a dumbass, it doesn't change the fact that he's going to get passed up for better jobs.
I rank people who goto get MBAs just so they can put it on their resume at about the same level as the MCSE people who never touch NT, etc...
Of course, i may be biased, i've seen "high and mighty" certified MBA-having techies come in and not know shit. And then i've seen people come in without a college diploma and blow those people away.
I guess what it comes down to is that if you're using the MBA to complement an already kickass skill-set, then more power to you. If you're using the MBA as a cover-up of piss-poor technical skills, then i suggest finding another area to work in.
My experience... (Score:5)
But ask yourself what you really want (Score:3)
If you're a good manager, you'll be doing all the shielding for your techies to keep the other PHBs and Users from driving them crazy or distracting them from cranking out good code.
Some places offer tech MBAs (e.g. University of Washington), which are probably more rewarding for most techies.
And, yes, you may have to deposit your soul in a safe deposit box until you retire, but that's up to you.
If you want to stay techie, but get more into theoretical stuff, you should consider the PhD route in a tech field - this may be just as rewarding and the hours aren't quite as bad.
Note I say this knowing a number of MBAs who are great people, and my brother's a lawyer (many many hours, pay about the same per hour as mine but I have a life), so it's not just theoretical.
Re:MBA's are for techs who want to be PHB's (Score:2)
MBA's are for techs who want to be PHB's (Score:4)
Since she got her MBA, she has lost or quit most of her tech duties and now manages projects, works on software budgets, etc...
Indeed... (Score:2)
OK, I'm kidding. More seriously, it's a piece of paper. The piece of paper is supposed to be a token that authenticates you as an individual possessing certain knowledge, but I think we all understand how specious that proposed authentication is.
So I guess my answer is that if you plan to work someplace where they care more about what pieces of paper you possess than your skills (or are too lazy to evaluate your skills and therefore rely on your magic pieces of paper), then go for it. Otherwise, I don't see what there is that you can't learn from buying and reading a bunch of relevant books and actually working at a business and paying attention to what goes on.
OK,
- B
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Re:In Response To Inquiries II (Score:3)
I am going nuts trying to read EVERY post, I see firsthand now the dedication of the moderators!
You are all echoing a lot of the same ideas I've had of late. Yes, it is obvious that persuing a buisness degree will shift me away from 'Pure Tech' and I'm quite comfortable with this adjustment. I LOVED computers when I was in High School, and then some time during college, it sort of faded. When I started engineering school, I wanted to know EVERYTHING about how my 486 worked. Then after Digital Design II, a crapload of Calc and enough Assembler code to make me tear my hair out, I decided I knew enough.
There are things I love more than computers now. Beer, video games, cars.. the real Purpose of getting an MBA would be to getting a big house with a Pool, and maybe a camero. I see this as the path of least resistance to my coveted 6 digit salary.
I know that as techies, we have a monopoly on many of the useful skills out there. However, most of the developers and engineers I have met out there (and I met many when I was a sword for hire) never step up to earn high salaries. Hope this Helps! -Ken (the Engineer)
Re:My experience... (Score:2)
Heh - that's exactly what I thought. Slashdotters taking career advice from a wannabe pr0n king.
Sure it would help... (Score:3)
I'm a developer with degrees in sociology, library science, and law. I'm convinced that the extra education outside of cs gives me significant insight that cs-only developers sometimes lack. I don't know if it avails me much when I'm job hunting, but on the job it helps me model business rules and work with clients. (Whether the performance gain was worth the cost is another question. :-)
However, I'm not convinced that an MBA in particular is any better than any other humanities degree.
Re:Forget the MBA. Here's proof. (Score:2)
Which is kind of the same as
if you are dumb as dirt (Knowledge ==> 0) your money will approach infinity
Because it will take you forever to get it done.
--Blair
Re:Sure it'll help (Score:2)
Re:An MBA in the current market? (Score:2)
And that's a completely different value proposition.
Also, keep in mind that there are lots of schools (good schools), that offer part time programs that are tightly integrated with your current work (for instance by focusing written work towards doing real projects in your company). For those who are considering an MBA, it might be worth talking to your boss or your HR department and asking them whether they would be willing to sponsor you for a school like that.
Re:Pop Went the Tech Bubble (Score:2)
Re:My experience... (Score:5)
Career paths (Score:4)
MBA. Why? (Score:3)
Re:NO such thing as overkill (Score:2)
Re:Dumb question.... (Score:3)
Not a Dumb question.
What it comes down to is what you want to do, and what size company you work for.
If you are looking to make the jump to management from Engineering then an MBA will most certainly help you out in a large company.
In a small company that is a very company specific question. In the place I work an MBA would be of no use, because we are all engineers, though some of us do more administration then others. In a case like I am in an MSEE would be better then an MBA by far.
If you work for a medium to large size company an MBA could help greatly. Because everyone likes a manager that understands the technical side of things as well, especially if they have been on the technical side of things before. I know I would rather report to an x-engineer with administration skills then some idiot in a suit that knows nothing about how I do what I do or what it requires...aka the Dilbert complex
motivation (Score:2)
where are you expecting to go in your career?
the value of an mba to a techie (Score:2)
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Re:It's a great way to move to management. (Score:2)
Absolutely not! Firing employees is far from being the best part of managing a development group. The actual process of firing someone is horrendous, they're always very emotional, and the paperwork that can ensue is dreadful. However, the upside comes slowly over the next couple of months. Unlike many professions, it is possible for engineers to have negative productivity. I refer, of course, to the Bible of technical management: The Mythical Man Month [amazon.com]. The title of the book, summarized quickly, refers to the fact that 30 men working for a day can't do the work of one man working for a month. This effect is particularly true in software engineering, where a superb engineer can not only do the work of 10 bad engineers, but sometimes, the work can only be done by a superb engineer! Conversely, bad engineers can hinder the work. This is why firing people with negative productivity can be so rewarding - a single bad cog in the machine can slow everyone down. "This wouldn't have happened if we had just used Apache" -BLAH BLAH BLAH! That doesn't get PRODUCT to the CUSTOMER! And it's bad for morale.
The things I enjoy in my job are delivering solutions that work to customers that have cash. Anything that gets in the way of that I destroy.
It's just part of being a manager. More money means more responsibility and a lot more stress. But when you do it right - more credit, and success and financial security for everyone in the company.
Sorry if my original post gave you the wrong impression.
It's a great way to move to management. (Score:5)
It's not the right path for everyone. If you have bad social skills, don't like to make command decisions, or don't feel that you're a pro-active person, you should probably just keep on writing code. But if you feel that you can combine your technical expertise with leadership abilites, an MBA is a great stepping stone.
Managing a technical project is very stressful work (I've heard the task of managing developers compared to "herding cats") but it can be very rewarding. Last year I finally had the opportunity to fire the office "Open Source Zealot" - the guy who wasted everyone's time complaining how "Outlook is insecure" and "I only use Linux on my notebook computer". The things you can do as a good manager:
- Refining your working unit only to productive, focused people,
- Refining your product definition to a technologically innovative, easy-to-use product
- Keeping your team in touch with the latest advancements in the marketplace
... can be part of the most rewarding career experience you will ever undergo.
For more information, Sharon [construx.com] is the man (so to speak).
Good luck!
A good experience (Score:2)
I was very lucky, because the teacher I worked with has very good connections with some great companies, so I was able to apply a lot of what I've learned right away in some real companies.
Warning: The most difficult part to me, as an engineer, to accept were those "simplistic" and qualitative models (Porter's competitive forces is a good example). I've also been told that this barrier is common to most technically oriented people, so know what you want, because your first times will be rough and will make you put aside most of the notions you know (problem is one of the notions you'll change). Choose very carefully the people/school you'll be on. Engineers always want to check how things work in practice, so make sure the school has a good contact network.
Just don this sock puppet ... (Score:5)
The best part about an MBA is that you'll learn about how to do cost/benefit analysis and evaluate good business plans.
Umm, Nico, all the busted dot-coms with poor business plans were lead by legions of MBA's. And ironically, the most successful computer businesses are being run by those who never even received their undergraduate degree.
Oh, umm, nevermind.
its impossible (Score:2)
you're asking for trouble, at graduation you'll probably be abducted by the government or something...
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Techie MS vs MBA (Score:2)
Ehhh...perhaps not (Score:2)