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Television Media

Buying a PVR that Doesn't Require a Subscription? 28

Posted by Cliff from the we-dun-need-no-steeking-schedules dept.
vchew asks: "I have been looking high and low for a decent PVR ala TiVo which doesn't require subscription, since I don't live in the US, and I don't need my PVR to call home every now and then. I can't find one! I don't want a Do-It-Yourself type like WinTV PVR, but a box which I can take home, plug in and just work! Tell me, is there no way for me to buy a digital equivalent of the 20 year old VCR? Well, if it lets me pause-live-TV, that would be cool, but I am willing to live with a digital VCR which does not call home, allows me to select air/cable input, PAL/NTSC output, and allows me to enter record timing slots like every other VCR instead of phoning some central master server to download some TV schedule (and maybe some personality change to go along with that)! Does this have anything to do with TiVo's recent patent?"
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Buying a PVR that Doesn't Require a Subscription? More

Buying a PVR that Doesn't Require a Subscription?

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  • Re:Love my TIVO! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    >What is it you don't think you can do with a TIVO?

    Buy it in Canada. :-(

  • In case you need to know if you're going to be stuck for long distance, I went back and found the local POP lookup for ReplayTV [replaytv.com].
  • I know that ReplayTV has gotten out of the direct consumer market, but Panasonic [panasonic.com] still sells a ShowStopper unit which allows program guide downloads with no subscription fee.

    One issue though is that ReplayTV/Panasonic doesn't offer a toll-free number if you happen to be long distance from one of their dial-in numbers.

  • TiVo is standalone, subscription optional (although 2.0.1 did remove functionality, but you won't be getting that first call anyway, I don't think. Unless they're shipping with 2.x now...).

  • Re:Love my TIVO! (Score:3)

    by K-Man ( 4117 ) on Thursday June 14, 2001 @01:48PM (#150511)
    Tivo requires one initial dial-in, with no service activation required, to download who-knows-what (like the software).

    After that it's manually programmable with no phone link, or subscription.
  • But you can just put a hole in a regular VHS tape where the extra hole is in the SVHS tape and do that trick with any SVHS vcr.

  • Well, I agree there are advantages with downloading the TV schedule, but can't we have a low-end model that is just the digital version of an analog VCR?

    Most people who want something that is easy/convenient to use (assign names to shows, not have to swap removable media, etc) also want the other ease-of-use features too. An automatically maintained and integrated TV schedule is an important part of that. If you don't need this stuff, I suspect that puts you into a very small niche, where there aren't likely to be any mass-market consumer products. Home-brew is probably your best bet. (And once you manage to get a home-brew solution working, I bet you'll end up downloading schedules from somewhere anyway. ;-)


    ---
  • They reduced the functionality on the new units to the point where a VCR is more functional.

    Unless you have a subscription.

  • Certainly not the US ones, but perhaps the UK ones may - but of that I have no knowledge. Us USians have no need for PAL anyway. Hardly any good stuff comes from PAL countries - mostly is comes from Japan and the US, both NTSC countries. :)
  • Idiot, eh?

    How many people in NTSC regions bother to get equipment that is PAL compatible, hmmm?

    Now how many in PAL regions bother to get NTSC equipment?

    We both know the answer to that - almost nobody and almost everyone respectively.

    In any case, I wasn't talking about picture quality, but the shows produced in the various regions of the world. Why you found it necessary to get all worked up about PAL vs NTSC (think Beta vs VHS) I don't know. It's irrelevant, as are you.

  • Love my TIVO! (Score:3)

    by MrPeach ( 43671 ) on Thursday June 14, 2001 @12:53PM (#150517) Homepage
    If you are willing to do without the guide, you can do all that stuff with the TIVO. Pause and rewind live TV, record by time/date/channel/duration.

    What is it you don't think you can do with a TIVO?
  • The things TiVo downloads are no secret. They have never been hidden from people who have been curious enough to look for them. Some of the download info is even available from the GUI without even hacking a bash prompt on TiVo, by merely enabling backdoors and using the "view TiVo logs" backdoor.

    Regardless, on the initial call, TiVo doesn't download new software. It has been stated several times that the initial call and the software update call are fundamentally different, and it is impossible to get a software update on the initial call. Any other calls you force can lead to software updates, and 2.0.1 has an "unplanned feature" that cripples your PVR beyond what TiVo intended. This will be fixed in a future upgrade that is still a few months off.

    Regardless, the inital call sets the internal clock, and does the initial population of the guide data. After that call, you can yank the phone cord and never plug it in again. And if you don't plan to have the service and don't want the software upgrade, yanking the phone cord is highly recommended.

    If you want functionality beyond that, people have devised ways to set the internal clock, modify the channel lineup, prevent software updates, and even populate the guide data from public sources. The hacks all exist, but have been created by and for people who have special circumstances that don't allow them to use the service as listed. Don't expect help from places like the AVS TiVo forum if you're merely trying to bypass the service fee... and even if you have good intent, you're going to have to look elsewhere for hacks that bypass the need for the service. People frown heavilly on bypassing TiVo's service fee if service can be obtained by legitimate means. The reasons for this are many, but mainly because TiVo's business model involves selling the units for less than cost, and making up the money in subscription fees. Thus, bypassing the service fee is a major blow to TiVo, and could put them out of business easily.

    Also, why not look into buying a TiVoNET ethernet adapter for daily calls? It's a hack that puts an ethernet jack on your TiVo, and scripts to redirect the daily call from the modem to an ethernet connection. Or, if you're stuck with a slow 'net connection, PPP-over-serial hacks are available as well, that make the call use a PPP connection over the DSS port as opposed to dialing. Both of the above hacks still help TiVo out by using their service, just merely using your own 'net connection as opposed to a UUNet phone number.

    Do searches in the AVS TiVo Underground Forum [avsforum.com], the TiVo Hack FAQ [tivofaq.com], and 9th Tee [9thtee.com] for all of the information I've stated above. Take some time to look around, all the info I've talked about and more is out there.

    For my money, the combination of my TiVo and their subscription is the best entertainment purchase I've ever made. I find myself using TiVo combined with my premium channels more than I use even my DVD player. But that, of course, is just my opinion.
  • Tivo et al. can't make the units cheap enough, so their business model involves selling services.

  • About the closest you can get to your criterion is to buy an old TiVo that still has a version 1.3.X system (or reinstate it with a backup). TiVo originally offered the option of purchasing the unit for use without guide data (they now cripple this severely), with pause/rewind functions and manual recording of time/channel allowed. The 2.0.1 upgrade was supposed to grandfather in old units [avsforum.com], but now includes a vast array of reminders that make it pretty painful (see the recent slashdot story [slashdot.org]). A fix is promised with 2.5 sometime in the fall (or much later, judging by 2.0 delays).

    Contrary to some other poster's comments, you don't have to call in to TiVo and download software if you aren't using guide data (the only thing you need is the date). You can make a test call only to sync up the date/time or set the date via bash prompt by hooking up a linux box to the serial port for a terminal session. A full call will upgrade you to 2.0.1 and introduce the subscription reminder advertising spam.

    Any TiVo can be converted to PAL input/output [samba.org] and newer UK units come set up for PAL already (I'm told, I haven't tried either). Note that this conversion is also incompatible with 2.0.1. You can find more info about PAL, etc. at the AVS TiVo forums [avsforum.com]. Expect to pay about $150-200 for one on ebay or the TiVo community garage sale [avsforum.com], but you'll need to look around carefully to find one that still has the 1.3 system (general upgrades went out to connected recievers in April or so).

    Regards, RJS

  • That the same show stopper with the marcovision so aggresive that some channels are unwatchable?
  • Why digital? Convenience. You can record 60 hours worth of material on these PVR's. No juggling video tapes. And, the interface for determining what to record is leaps and bounds ahead of VCR programming. Also, if you want better quality, go for the Tivo with the integrated DirecTV tuner. That way all the shows are saved directly as their digital stream. There is no conversion/compression/degradation. It is recorded just as broadcast.
  • Tivo needs to make a PVR device with an integrated Digital TV tuner. HDTV takes about 7GB per hour to record. So, you'll need a couple very large disks. Or, as a compromise, the device could convert the stream to 480p for storage.
  • all channels? um, in the UK alone what about BBC one and two, ITV and Channel 4? Oh yeah, we have channel5 as well, but that's not worth the time of day... Anyway, these are all plain ol' VHF broadcasts, you can't get ITV on sat at all, and these are the channels with the most quality programmes, the public-funded ones. And that's just the UK.
  • If you want functionality beyond that, people have devised ways to set the internal clock, modify the channel lineup, prevent software updates, and even populate the guide data from public sources. The hacks all exist, but have been created by and for people who have special circumstances that don't allow them to use the service as listed.

    "don't allow them to use"? You mean like: not living in the US and having no advantage whatsoever from Tivo's potential service?

    TiVo-like devices, i.e., PVRs, are of interest for lots of reasons. TiVo seems to be writing off its potential non-US business with its insistence on service. (And yes, I know that they don't make money on the systems sold by Panasonic. Then they should simply raise their price tag.)

    Until then I'm also waiting for a PVR with sensible functionality, without an extra service attached. My VCR has no service either, and I don't miss it at all.

  • since I don't live in the US

    You probably know that, but here's a word of warning:

    If you live in Europe and don't get a multi-mode (NTSC/PAL/SECAM) recorder you're just damn out of luck.

    Same goes for videos purchased in the US (DVDs are a whole other issue)

  • The picture quality of TiVo is nothing to write home about. Why don't you have a look at a good S-VHS vcr? It blows away VHS in picture quality. Recorders can be bought all day for a song. Circuit City has them available from $139 (Phillips VR-960BPH). They don't call home, and they pick up a good 400 lines of resolution, and the S-VHS ET models can give you improved picture without S-VHS tape.
  • If you are willing to do without the guide, you can do all that stuff with the TIVO. Pause and rewind live TV, record by time/date/channel/duration.

    If you plan to use it simply as a digital VCR, don't let it upgrade you to 2.0.1.

    Just trust me on this one...
  • You can get a life subscription for TiVo. IIRC, it's about $200-USD.
  • Yah, Tivo will do all that stuff.

    Just don't plug it in to your phone jack. Plus you cam make a cool Linux box.
    Yes, I don't own one but I've herd this a couple of times (on good account)...

  • As far as I know, Tivo will not switch from PAL TO NTSC
  • > Tivo requires one initial dial-in, with no service activation required, to download
    > who-knows-what (like the software).

    So if I live out of the States, theoretically, I can mail-order TiVo, make it do one long distance dial to get who-knows-what, and after that I can use it like a normal VCR? I get the impression that TiVo can only be bought with 1-yr subscription, not standalone.
    ---
  • Well, I am thinking more in terms of usability when going digital. Think about this, I can record as many shows as I want without worrying about tapes. I can assign names to timer slots, and when I get home, I will be presented with a list of shows I have recorded. I will just have to select a particular show, and presto, I will be watching it. With tapes, I have to figure out which tape to pop in. Sometimes, if I record two shows back-to-back and I have only watched one, I can't reuse that space because I still have another show on tape... blah... blah... you know what I mean... the various advantages of going digital.

    I don't get it... isn't this easy (at least for people in the business)? Just pop in a HDD and an MPEG2 chip, and you have a digital VCR? Well, I agree there are advantages with downloading the TV schedule, but can't we have a low-end model that is just the digital version of an analog VCR?

    Well, if someone can point me to a good and affordable MPEG2 encoder card (with Linux drivers), I'd be glad ot build one myself. I have done some searching on Google, so far the furthest ahead is the Video Disk Recorder [cadsoft.de] project. Man, the DVB-S card itself is the price of a TiVO!
    ---
  • You can buy a professional PVR but they are not called pvr's they are DDRs for Digital Disk Recorders. A company called Doremi Labs makes a unit the V1-UHD that will record UNCOMPRESSED HDTV in 720p or 1080i and the unheard of 1080p which is the best HDTV format out there but will never be availble to the public. And another company called Fast Forward Video makes DDR's. I remember another company that makes one that the user can remove the drive for upgrading or if that drive is full put in another just like a videotape. But all of these units are at least $2500 and up so if you have the money they are out there.

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