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The Almighty Buck

What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers? 116

Posted by michael from the city-I-live-in,-the-city-of-angels dept.
WGR writes "The City of Ottawa, Canada is starting to re-write its Official Plan, the "charter" for a city. [A few weeks ago] we had a 5 day Smart Growth Summit that was webcast online with discussion groups and web interactivity. Ottawa is fairly strong in the high-tech sector as it is, with NortelNetworks and JDS-Uniphase having their biggest presence here and had over a $1 billion of venture capital last year. But how do you keep a livable city when you expect to have a 50% population increase in 10 years? One idea came from Dr. Richard Florida from Carnegie-Mellon University. He said that "knowledge workers" want to go to places that have the 3 T's, "Technology, Talent and Tolerance". That is, where there already is a lot of technology, where there is a rich artistic and entertainment sector, lots of educational opportunities, where there are a lot of people with similar interests and where there are people from many diverse backgrounds and lifestyles. But not necessarily low city taxes. Do you agree, and what would be your ideal city to work in?"
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What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers? More

What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers?

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  • A Variety of Factors (Score:1, Interesting)

    by waldoj ( 8229 )
    I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. There are a number of things that make our tech scene great. A few:
    1. The Neon Guild [neonguild.org],a group of geeks. We've met twice monthly since 1995, and we have hundreds of members. It's like Cheers, only for geeks.
    2. The Virginia Piedmont Technology Council [vptc.org] represents our interests (theoretically) on a legal level to the state and beyond. I have some qualms with them, but the concept is great.
    3. A wide variety of tech businesses [charlottesville.org] populate the city, from gaming companies like Electronic Arts and (formerly) Boxer Jam to small shops like my website design firm [munkandphyber.com]. Not much homogeny, as a result.
    4. Tech non-profits like Computers 4 Kids [computers4kids.net]. Geeks need an outlet in their time off, but many of us are happy to keep doing computer stuff. Being able to donate time to organizations like this is great.
    But we need some changes. Like:
    1. A wireless network. Downtown should be blanketed with 802.11b and a DHCP server to handle the users. No charge, something that the city would do as an incentive to tech businesses to set up house downtown. Not fast enough to be used as an office Internet connection, but sufficient for browsing at a café or something.
    2. Tax breaks for tech start-ups. We have one for personal property taxes, but the state taxes are killers. It would be nice to see a graded tax that would leave companies paying full face-value after n years.
    3. A clueful City Council. Most of them just don't get tech, and there's a general attitude that as goes the stock market, so goes the city's interest in having tech firms here. This is foolish, as tech firms are excellent businesses: non-polluting, compact, undemanding (ignoring my list here :), and high-paying. If the City were simply able to react to needs quickly, instead of running a 24-month study, I imagine that things would get done more quickly.
    Anyhow, that's my take on things as regards my experience with my city. YMMV.

    -Waldo

    • I live in Charlottesville, Virginia. There are a number of things that make our tech scene great.

      Oh, I love Charlottesville. I used to work for Litton, and they offered me a transfer there a couple of years ago. I turned it down, in the end, because I didn't like the position.

      But, ah, Charlottesville. Friendly people, beautiful Virginia countryside all around, low real estate prices (compared to Toronto), low taxes (compared to what the Canadian government does to me every two weeks), and FedEx doesn't have to go through hell to try to get my rust-free Arizona car parts to me. My 1976 Dodge Ram fit in perfectly there.

      [sigh]

  • He said that "knowledge workers" want to go to places that have the 3 T's

    Or T3's :op
  • I know, I know... minimal Ricochet coverage, horrible cell reception in a lot of neighborhoods, through-the-roof rent, and horrendously rude people.

    Who cares. I was born here, and while it's no place for hardware types, it's coastal, has damn near every type of restaurant available, and there's always something to do. At the end of the day, I want to leave the sysadmin work back at the office and kick back. At least I have more options than staying at home playing video games, although I'll do that pretty often as well.

    Being within 40 minutes of most of your friends helps. And for me, the import shops are key. The only thing that I'd really like to see is a decent amateur 802.11 effort here. Two access points on one street and another a few miles away doesn't count.
    • Ahh. So you're saying that in order for Ottawa to make itself more appealing to High-Tech Workers, it should become New York City, and also convince your friends to move there? I see how that's helpful.
      • The question was "what would be your ideal city to work in?"

        Helpful or not, I pick NYC, and more importantly, I *did* list why. Perhaps if Ottawa had the variety that NYC does, then I'd consider moving there. Perhaps it has the same appeal as NYC, and I'm just unaware of it. Either way, pay attention to what I wrote as a whole, not just the subject line.

        Of course, you'd rather go ahead and troll. I see how that's helpful.

  • My experience (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Thellan ( 187645 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2001 @04:36PM (#2119866)
    Just to set a perspective I live in Atlanta, Georgia. And it is the best city I have lived in so far.

    I agree with what Mu* said in general but here in Atlanta I have not really noticed the tendency to "milk to cow". For instance I live downtown with a friend of mine a stones throw from the CNN building and we only pay $1150 a month including utilities for a 2bed/2bath apartment. I think this is mainly because Atlanta just grew at a good rate with the whole boom in the 90's instead of exploding like Silicon Valley.

    One of my biggest greviances with Atlanta is the lack of a decent public transport system. And by that I mean we dont have a subway, and if you live in Atlanta dont even try to say those MARTA trains constitute a subway. It only runs north/south and east/west and has way too few stops. It would be nice to have something like what Washington, D.C. has where the subway goes all the way out to the suburbs and there are parking areas at the end points.

    I think a very important part of any city that wants to attract Techies is that they need to be a diverse and tolerant city. One thing I have a hard time doing is putting up with bigots/racist/holyier-than-thou types. I was raised with a philosophy of "dont knock it till you've tried it" and I try to live up to it. I believe that everyone should be able to live the way they want to live. I will not live somewhere where I am told I need to change or the people's general attitude is that I am the spawn of satan for not agreeing with them (I went through highschool once already and I would rather not do it again).

    As far as taxes go I feel that anything above 30% or so is excessive unless the government can really explain it. Here in Georgia I actually lose more money to state taxes than I do to federal taxes and social security which I dont think is right... Georgia doesn't have an army last time I checked.

    Wow that kindof rambled a bit.

    Basically I look for interesting Technology Companies, Tolerance, Diversity, public transport, and a good education system(I will have kids one day).

    Of course, with education it is not so much the city but the individual schools that are good or bad.

    Rich
    • Atlanta grew much faster than Silicon Valley in the 90s. See http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/ta b05.txt [census.gov]. The SF bay area attracted more VC money and more importantly, failed to build new housing.

    • Okay, maybe I'm biased in that Atlanta doesn't fit the 'stereotypical tech city' template for me to begin with. Main reason, I used to live around there myself (Snellville, to be more specific). Loved it when I lived out there, and look at moving back in about 5 years.

      Atlanta may not have the public transportation factor, but I think what makes Atlanta most appealing to me, is room. Folks in the Atlanta area don't have to crowd into a geographically defined/limited area, as is so often found in other cities (Salt Lake, mountains all around; many west coast cities, ocean on one side, mountains on other, etc). All of the suburban areas surrounding Atlanta provide the places to live, and the 'city proper' provides all the advantages of a big city without you having to actually live in it. There's also the more 'laid back' atmosphere in general, but that comes with tradition and custom more than anything.

      My 'ideal' for a tech city would be one not of a huge, built-up downtown area, but of nice, reasonably spread-out suburban areas, with the bustle and action of downtown when I want it, and relative peace and isolation when I want it. I've done my time in 'cube land' over the years at work , I want some room, dammit!

      • You've just described what many urban planners hate nowdays: sprawl. Everyone is supposed to emulate Portland now and pack more people and businesses into less space. Didn't you know that people who leave their decaying neighborhoods and move into the suburbs have been reclassified as evil? They are supposed to be tolerant of the crack heads next door, the gangsters on the corner, the illegal immigrants across the street, etc. and stay in the crossfire. Where have you been?

        • Didn't you know that people who leave their decaying neighborhoods and move into the suburbs have been reclassified as evil? They are supposed to be tolerant of the crack heads next door, the gangsters on the corner, the illegal immigrants across the street, etc. and stay in the crossfire.

          Ever stop to wonder why American neighborhoods decay in a few decades, but European cities thrive for centuries?

        • Portland isn't dense (Score:2, Informative)

          by mlinksva ( 1755 )
          If cities are going to emulate Portland, they should make a lot of noise about density, then sprawl like crazy anyway. Portland has about 3.9k people per square mile. Compare to Seattle (6.7k), Los Angeles (7.9k) or San Francisco (16.6k). Portland isn't even that much denser than Phoenix (2.8k), for crying out loud! See a complete list of densitites for all US cities of with 50k or greater population [demographia.com].
          • If cities are going to emulate Portland, they should make a lot of noise about density, then sprawl like crazy anyway.

            Yeah, it's really starting to suck out there; I hate seen vast tracks of what was once very nice farmland get rolled over by some particularly ugly housing developments. Though OTOH the core of the city is very nice as-is, I would hate to see a lot of it get torn down or whatever. But the growth out there is too high for the area to keep up, I think.

            Even Baltimore (where I'm currently living) has higher density than Portland, and most of the buildings here are only 2 or 3 stories high.

          • Then why is it that every time anyone mentions anything about urban sprawl, Portland is always mentioned as a metro area that manages growth the "correct" way and the example that should be followed?

            Thanks for the link. It made Anchorage even more attractive.

            • why is it that every time anyone mentions anything about urban sprawl, Portland is always mentioned...

              This is an Urban Legend.

              Sorry, couldn't help myself.

            • Portland is at the forefront of passing laws and creating new jurisdictions that supposedly force smart growth. People cite Portland as an example of the "correct" way of doing things because people naively think that laws and the like have their intended consequences.
              • In what way has Portland's development policies not had their intended consequenses?

                And, just as an FYI, the typical urban sprawl style of development is entirely an outcome of legally mandated social engineering.
          • http://www.demographia.com/db-2000city50kdens.htm

            By what perverse, freakish aberration did that two-page text chart need to be 1,500Kbytes???

  • Well first of all, I live in Ottawa. Probably the main reason why I'd be tempted to leave is for those blasted taxes that gouge out half of my paycheck every two weeks, and it is said that the salaries are relatively low up here when compared to equivalent jobs in the states or overseas. Ottawa is a huge confusing crowded overpriced city that sucks the life out of everything around it. All the surrounding cities are dull, even the once active and fruitful city of Hull is now turned into the government workers' wasteland.

    The problem with these high tech fast-moving cityscapes is that they're expensive to start up and maintain, so that funding comes at the expense of other aspects of city management.
    • I left Ottawa to go live in the USA, where I could get a better job than Call Center Phone Answerer, and six times the pay, with a 21% tax rate.

      Again, this is classic Canadian idiocy. "What can the GOVERNMENT do, spending LOTS OF DOLLARS, to get suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hpeople to come and live and work here, and thus increase the TAX BASE?"

      Lower the taxes, increase the salaries, and get in some decent jobs. It won't happen, so what they'll do instead is jack up the taxes to pay for a couple of skating rinks named after a couple of French Canadians, or something.
  • a compUSA superstore open 24/7
  • In today's economic climate? One that has jobs

    • With the internet, VPNs, and the cost of office space, why don't we see more companies let most of their tech employees telecommute? Then it wouldn't matter much at all where they were located. I can do without the corporate group hugs and pep rallies (ala Steve the Monkeyboy) as well as the commute whether it be driving behind some big ass SUV or having to sit near the mutants on public transportation.

      • I can do without the corporate group hugs and pep rallies (ala Steve the Monkeyboy) as well as the commute whether it be driving behind some big ass SUV or having to sit near the mutants on public transportation.

        Well then you need to move a 20 minute walk from your job like me :-D (NYC)
  • It comes down to one thing...Money. The more we have the better we can support our lifestyles. I fell their are a few essential things in an economic environment that can create more cashflow. 1. A competetive market. The more options we have the better. 2. Constant business growth. The more a company grows, the larger the need for more employees. 3. Great scholastic environments. This includes public and private schools for those who have children, and universities and colleges for those who have a continuing education. 4. Hospitable living communities. The more comfortable a person feels in their living arrangements the less likely they'll want to leave. These are some of the basic building blocks that will set up a thriving economy. In a competetive market the companies must have competetive wages that will attract employees. When the economy grows the need for high taxes will decline because there are more people to share the percentage increasing the total amount, lower taxes seem to really attract more people, more people means a better economy. I could go on but this has probably boring as it is by simplistic apparency.

  • Vancouver! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ffa ( 104185 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2001 @04:36PM (#2132060) Homepage
    I have been to/worked at quite a few places in the world such as Chicago (Schuamberg), San Fran (San Jose, etc), Swindon (UK), Bonn (Germany), Fort Worth-Dallas, and Cork (Ireland) to name a few. I fit somewhere in the middle as far as the "geek" factor is concerned. I like to have my computer meets and a good game of head to head Quake with some friends, and I also like the out doors (biking, climbing, hiking) and the urban nightlife (house music, clubs, etc). Basically I like what cities like NYC and San Fran offer, but without all the traffic jams and with some good weather and the great outdoors. And I have found that here in Vancouver, which is the "small big city". We have all the amenities of a big city (you know, the big concerts, the Virgin Mega stores, the big city shopping and night life) but the city has the population of less than 1 million , the air is clean, never gets too hot or too cold (all year round), world's best skiing is a quick drive (Whistler) and the traffic is MUCH better than most Amercian cities. Granted, taxes are higher, but you get a pretty decent social welfare system. If you are more of a people's person, Vancouver is your place. And all the major corps have offices here (Motorola, Intel, Alacatel, HP, Nortel, IBM, etc , etc.) not to mention the chic Yaletown with all the smaller startups and incubation facilities... And as for rent goes, you can live downtown or in the Vancouver core where it is more expensive, you can live in the surrounding regions where rent is fairly cheap.. depends on how close to the beach you want to be ;) -farshad
  • A good public health care system isn't perhaps the first thing you'd think of when considering 'geek' requirements, but think about it for a moment: Job security right now is pretty poor in the tech sector... and even when it wasn't, many people work as contract employees. In the US as a general rule, no job == no health care. Having a good public health care system can provide Canadian cities a major boost over their American counterparts.

    Other elements I think are important, in order:
    1. Good electrical infrastructure, both outside and inside homes.
    2. High speed internet access.
    3. Cultural/sports events. I think cultural events are more important, however, since they are harder to televise.
    4. A 24-hour-friendly support structure -- speaking from experience it is annoying to be treated like some sort of freak when you drive into a store at 4AM looking for food.
    • Ok, I admit this thread started with the "What do you want to see in a city" concept, but I am apalled by the number of otherwise intellegent people who are crying for other people to pay for their conveniences!

      "Public" health care? Your health is YOUR problem, not mine. Don't rob me at gun-point because you're too stupid to buy your own health insurance or find your own doctor, or prepare when you DO have a job for those times when you DON'T.

      The best places I've lived have always been the ones with the least taxes. Those were also the places with the most available doctors, the most reachable churches and community organizations, the easiest regulations, and the most friendly neighbors.

      Along with that came nearly non-existant crime, little or no "drug" problems, no gangs, tollerance for race/sexual-preference/religion/style.

      Before you go decrying how "public" services are required, remember that no matter how well those "public" services seem on paper, they always cost more than the same service provided by interested, involved individuals.

      It's too bad that logical thinking required by high-tech work does not extend into other parts of peoples lives. On the other hand, the 'Net is a hotbed of support for individual rights, so maybe those who haven't yet applied logic to social issues are a decreasing minority.

      I certainly hope so.

      Bob-

      • Currently, you're being taxed to support a gagillion-dollar-a-year War on Some Drugs that accomplishes nothing but jailing people and financing government intrusion. The U.S. has the highest percentage of its population behind bars in the world, and 80% of those are in for *solely* non-violent drug offenses; who do you think is paying for all these prisons? Who's paying for all the vice squad cops, the DEA agents, the armed forces to Colombia?

        If you let people ingest whatever the heck they want, and abolish the DEA, the ONDCP...FOUR OUT OF FIVE jail cells across the nation...then you might actually have some money left over to give to people who NEED medical services but can't afford them.

        You do know there are POOR people in this country, right, not just 100k+ programmers who are currently out of a job?

        If you can support a full-fledged war on the citizens of your own country, but balk when asked to actually help some people in need...well, fuck you then. Unfortunately, most people (voters) either do, or are too stupid to see what they're doing.

        If you believe that the government has no right to collect an income tax, then I agree with you. But we both know this isn't going to happen. I can live with that. The gross misappropriation of these funds that goes on, however, is really unforgivable.

        BTW, for the inevitable AC that will suggest that ending drug prohibition will strain either the existing or theoretical health system: either understand how much safer legalized and regulated drugs will be than their street counterparts, or simply assert that people who have medical problems directly resulting from drug use are forced to cover it themselves. *shrug*
  • Actually, I've been to Ottawa, and it wouldn't be a bad place to live and work at all. I'm married with two children, and I can't separate my requirements as a technology worker from my requirements as the parent of a family: Good schools, reasonable housing, moderate taxes. I would add to that "access to outdoor recreation" and "liveable climate," which for me means on the cool side. But those are personal preferences that have nothing to do with technology. Make the city attractive to average middle-class people and the technology workers will probably be happy. I'd suspect it would do more good to make the city attractive to technology companies.
  • That's what people here seem to be saying. Good schools, good times, low taxes, and whatever your "pet issue" is.

    I think the question asker really has the bulk of the work already done in identifying some of the semi-unique techie draws, but how can you really accomplish them? A town itself usually has little to do with whether or not they become an artistic mecca or some of the other draws, and in many examples the tech would later push out thye artists or many of the other appeals of a city.

    What can a city government realistically do to attract a technology economy? Well, probably it's bring the jobs there.

    I live in san francisco and boulder, and silicon valley really has little current native appeal. At one point the area may have been beautiful, unique, and full of the arts. Now it is sprawling, close to the same as every other major sprawl and has pushed a majority of it's artists out of town or out of the state.

    But if you work in tech silicon valley is still (or maybe was until recently) the golden fleece for high-end jobs, plenty of possibilities, and the chance to work on stuff like you have nowhere else. That's really because of the employers in the area. Take them all and move them to anchorage and I would most likely move there as much as i hate to admit it.

    Boulder county is well on it's way to getting it's tech community that it decided it wanted (and trying to ruin itself oalong the way, but hell thats how it goes). The reason? They give fat, fat tax incentives to large nationals and multinationals that want to move portions of their operation there.

    I mean, is there really any other way it's ever worked? I can't imagine that you could get all the workers to move there before the jobs came. In this case the chicken certainly comes first.

  • I can't comment on the relative merit of other cities vs. Montreal since I had never stayed outside of Montreal for an extended period of time, but here are some good point for my city :

    • LOTS of ethnic restaurant (something lacking in Ottawa)
    • Cheapest electricity in North America. Granted, you need a lot to heat in the winter :)
    • Very low cost of rent. My appartement (5 rooms) cost me 485 CDN$ (1 CDN$ == .65 US$)
    • Nightlife extraordinaire (not quite NYC, but close)
    • Lots of taxes break for new business. See the Cité du Multimédia [invest-quebec.com] in particular.
    • Low crime rate, althrough it tend to worsen IMHO.
    • Broadband available (both cable and DSL)

    Downside include :

    • Low wage, high taxes
    • Weather
    • Sluggish economy
    • No high tech spearhead, like Nortel in Ottawa.

    Anyway, Montreal is not the no. 1 high-tech mecca in North-America, but a nice place to live with a good tech foundation.

    • As an American living in Montreal 5 years after NYC, DC, & Boston here's a few other points:
      • LOTS of ethnic restaurant (something lacking in Ottawa)
        Absolutely true. Fantastic food everywhere and open 'till late.
      • Cheapest electricity in North America. Granted, you need a lot to heat in the winter :)
        Also note that most buildings are almost uninsulated and the general housing stock is somewhat elderly.
      • Very low cost of rent. My apartment (5 rooms) cost me 485 CDN$ (1 CDN$ == .65 US$)
        Again, the housing is generally a step or two below US standards. This means fewer amenities, smaller rooms, more worn buildings, etc.
      • Nightlife extraordinaire (not quite NYC, but close)
        Actually I'd say better then Gulliani-era NYC. Plus much more accessible & much cheaper though after awhile Comedy Festival / Carrifiesta / Jazz Festival / Grand Prix / Gay Pride / Franco Follies / Fete Nationale / St. Patrick's / etc. get to be a bit much.
      • Lots of taxes break for new business. See the Cité du Multimédia in particular.
        Lots (lots!) of government meddling in businesses. Some industries get big breaks, free buildings, employees underwritten, big grants, etc. & others don't. Success is as much about currying political favor & the public teat as it is about sales.
      • Low crime rate, although it tend to worsen IMHO.
        By US standards very low crime rates. When I first moved to Montreal I thought from watching TV news they must be the worst drivers in the word. Then I realized that without the US's daily parade of gunshots & the like single-car accidents were as close as they could come to "if it bleeds it leads" stories.
      • Broadband available (both cable and DSL)
        On the other hand the service isn't all that great & the language police can go after you if your website is in the province & isn't sufficiently bilingual.
      Downside include :
      • Low wage, high taxes
        In my case I figured about 1/2 US rates before the exchange rate.
      • Weather
        Long cold winters although the city is designed to handle them, all enclosed subway, vast "Underground City". Frankly I find winters in Montreal to be less of a hassle then in Boston as the plowing on streets & sidewalks is fantastic and sidewalk obstructions are intelligently kept against buildings.
      • Sluggish economy
        Canada's economy lags the US's, Quebec's lags the rest of Canada's.
      • No high tech spearhead, like Nortel in Ottawa.
        Has numerous businesses like SoftImage, ZeroKnowledge, chemical, pharmaceutical & aviation businesses plus lots of Nortel but no, no overwhelming ones like Corel or Nortel HQ. On the other hand this may well be a plus.
      Other things to consider are the hell of the language laws and the effect they'll have on your trying to run a business, the grossly intrusive government bureaucracy and the highest taxes in North America. Then there's the issue of the separtist government and their determination to create a pure Quebec of only francophones; the common racist & antisemetic feelings. Another is the lingering laws that forbid grocery stores (even very big ones) from having more then four staff late night or after regular hours on Sundays and that stores close early including malls.

      Also being in Canadia US companies overlook or avoid services up here: no TiVo service, expensive shipping across the border, anything that requires a Zip code to confirm won't work, etc.

      It's a fantastic place to live but I wouldn't try to start a business here. Did I mention the highest taxes in North America?

      • the language police can go after you if your website is in the province & isn't sufficiently bilingual

        Are you serious? What about personal/not-for-profit sites? Are you required to *know* French to live there, or what?

        BTW, also lamenting the death of NYC nightlife, but Giuliani's almost gone :)
        • The language laws are complex and constantly misrepresented (for example the OLF's own staff & director was applying a typeface-size rule that was entirely specious.) However for commercial sites they must offer comperable material in French.

          They may not actually do any business within the province (example a high-tech software package that is only applicable to specific engineering practices not used in Quebec) but they must support hypothetical if impossible quebecois customers.The situation for non-profit sites is less clear but is likely the same, personal sites are apparently yet to be determined.

          This is all new territory for the OLF and of course they like to make up "law" as they go along but for now it's usually best just to host one's material out of province.

          As to knowing French, no you're not required and indeed there are many native Montrealers who don't have a working knowledge. However to run a business it's required as the provincial government works only in French and there are laws regarding the use of French within offices over a certian size, French in business communications, etc. Certianly it makes life much easier.

          Finally the majority of the population that simply doesn't speak English, particularly outside of downtown Montreal. I lived in a farm town 45 minutes North of Montreal and any unidentified English material (newspapers, catalogs, magazines) went into my mailbox, particularly if they were tech-related. I was one of the few anglophones in town, the only tech one, and the small post office knew it.

          The way I explain it to visitors is that Anglophones are like spanish-speakers in Texas or Florida. There's a bunch, particularly in the city but it's a second class society with the minority newpspers, minority TV stations, etc. The west island (Isle de Montreal) is heavily anglophone and there the street language is English but it's like a suburban barrio, drive a few blocks and the stop signs revert to "Arret".

        • Yes, he's serious. Quebec has some very draconian language laws. No English outside buildings, and half the font size of mandatory french translations within buildings. Children whose PARENTS did not attend QUEBEC ENGLISH SCHOOLS must learn in French schools entirely in French. Packaging must be in French. Software must be produced in French, first, then the English version...

  • One of the worst things I've seen/heard from people who live in the 'high tech heavy' cities/areas, is how high (most often termed 'insane' from them) the cost of living is in such places. The term 'high tech' seems to almost always conjure the idea 'big bucks'. With the pay rates assosciated with the stable tech industries/vendors (read 'not fly-by-night dot coms'), people start to feel there's 'more money in the air', and prices start getting jacked up. Hell, here in the Salt Lake valley, there's a nearly constant difference of 10 to 15 cents per gallon of gas between the west side (more middle and lower incomes) and the east side ('where the money is', the usual sentiment goes).

    The point: people will try to milk perceived 'cash cows' as hard as they can, and having high-tech industry/service around, one can suddenly 'feel money in the air'.

    As for 'The Three T's', well, think of the truly 'techie' people you know. They almost always can be considered 'eccentrics' in one way or another in relation to 'the general accepted public view' (Goths, anime junkies, Pythonites, Stars Wars fanatics, 'l33t g4m3r phr34kz', 'furries', RPGers, etc, etc. (And yes, I consider myself a few of these, so I have license to poke fun :b ) ). Techie people just -tend- to desire a varied and wide range of things. Hell, just look at a cross-segment of /. topics and threads. ;)

    "Your mind is like a parachute. If it doesn't work, you're screwed..."

    • Thats why I like working in Chicago - theres an excellant public transportation system. You can live anywhere from Milwaukee, WI to Gary,IN and get downtown in no more then 90 minutes. I take the 90 minute route, so 3 hours of commute sounds bad. But most places around here let you count it as work. So I get to work at 9 and leve at 3 - not bad at all

  • I'd much rather live in the country. It's peaceful, cleaner, lower crime, less expensive, and IMHO, a better place to raise a family. I've been to SF, Silicon Valley, Atlanta, Dallas, & Chicago and you couldn't pay me enough to live in any of those places. I think the only reasons I'm living where I'm at now are: 1) I actually like my job and 2) my wife squanders so much money that it's damn near impossible to save up any to move away.

    The best programming job I ever had was at a Federal facility that most here would consider to be in BFE. We had lots of cool *nix machines to work on and interesting projects. At noon most of the programmers would go outside and take a walk along the neighboring corn fields. No smog, rarely any cars speeding by , and it was quiet so you could think about the latest algorithm that was puzzling you. Any resources one needed could be found on the internet [They were 10 years ago, should still be the same]. Unless it's an impulse buy, I don't purchase any geek toys at local stores and UPS/FedEx have regular delivery in rural areas. Sure, I would be paid less and it is cold in the winter, but I'd go back in a heartbeat.

    • Scale/density/diversity of NYC
    • Low taxes/regulation of Las Vegas or Houston
    • Tech/academic concentration of Silicon Valley or Boston
    • Low housing costs of Pittsburgh
    • Weather of San Diego (of much less importance)
    I've been in San Francisco for 8 years, which I guess is sort of a compromise on all of the above. Nearly moved to Austin instead of SF out of school, which would've been a different compromise on all of the above.

    When my current gig is up (hopefully a long time) I hope to move out of the US.

    How should a city handle growth? Build lots of highrises. Like Hong Kong or Vancouver. NIMBYs can go elsewhere.

  • My favorite city to do high tech work in is no city at all.

    Sure the "three T's" are all well and good, but so is quality of life, clean air, clean water, and tollerance of life, not just life style.

    If I can't target shoot off the back porch, how am I going to relax after a hard session of coding?

    Bob-

  • What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers? (Score:5, Funny)

    by unitron ( 5733 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2001 @05:53PM (#2166825) Homepage Journal
    What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers?

    Fast internet connections and faster women?

  • I've lived in the country and city. I by far prefer the country. While visiting the city is great, having to live there is another matter.

    One of my biggest problems with the city is that it is too cramped. My backyard is over 100 acres of open land, how many of you in the city can say that?? Country life is also a slower pace, everything in the city is rush, rush, rush, but it seems to be the oppoisite in the country.

    Even though I live in the country, I still have a high-tech job. I still have my DSL internet and satellite TV, all the ammenities of city life. If I want to do something that is only avaliable in the city, well then I'll drive there. It's not like city people don't drive everywhere anyway, so not much is different there either.

    To me, country life has it all, but I know it's not for everyone. Different storkes for different folks I guess.
  • If low taxes were important to creating a tech region, Silicon Valley would not have been created in California.

    In the 1970's, Boston was the center of technology. Currently, Silicon Valley is. In my opinion, the most important factor to generating an excellent technical area is having excellent colleges. (Harvard and M.I.T. supplied many electrical engineers to the Boston area; Stanford and Berkeley provide them to Silicon Valley.)

    Without excellent colleges, a place may be incredibly pleasant to live in, but it will have to import all of its technical talent. Although I have nothing against either Carleton University or the University of Ottawa, neither is a world-caliber university.

    • Silicon Valley and Boston's tech roots go back many decades. State and local taxes weren't as much of an issue then -- state and local government has grown much faster than the federal government.

      Every city wants to think of itself as a new high-tech mecca, though the two that arguably have the strongest qualifications, Austin and Seattle, each have an excellent university and no state income tax. I don't know whether there's a connection, but it would be an interesting question to study.

      Another interesting coincidence: both Silicon Valley and Boston have relative tax havens in their backyards -- Nevada and New Hampshire respectively.

  • Things I've seen important to folks (Score:5, Informative)

    by maggard ( 5579 ) <michael@michaelmaggard.com> on Tuesday August 07, 2001 @08:31PM (#2167855) Homepage Journal
    Here's a list of some of the items I've seen of import to Geeks:
    • A strong gay community with good protections. Seriously, lots of high tech folks are lgbt? and it's an issue. I know Austin Texas took a hit when they repealed some protections, folks from companies like Apple declined transfers on that basis.
    • The same for ethnic communities. Lots of Geeks are Indian or Pakastani or SE Asian - good cultural resources like night clubs and resturaunts serving home food & grocery stores with the same are important.
    • Late night services. This means having more then the cliché "Quik-E-Mart" a few miles away. Good big grocery stores that are open 24 hours are important. Hardware stores & electronic stores are that are open late also are big pluses too. Municipalities can curb their "Blue Laws" and do what they can to support 24/7 services that match many Geek lifestyles.
    • Students. Students support lots of services that Geeks also take advantage of. This covers everything from take-out to music stores to a good university library nearby.
    • Office space that is used to Geek needs. This means 24 hour access - none of those silly heat/ac cuts off 10pm-6am policies. Leases that can start small and grow. Electrical supplies that can support 2 or 3 computers per employee.
    • Housing. Geeks want housing that can have cables run through it & a bunch of computers in the odd corners - 1930's wiring will not cut it. Houses are better then apartments - semi-furnished is always popular. Semi-adult room-mates are common and the local ordinances shouldn't be written to prevent this. Also leases that start on some synchronized date (Sept. 1 for Boston or June 1 for Montreal) are anathama.
    • Network access. This means Cable or DSL that is fast, reliable, & reasonably priced without onerous burdons. No servers-forbidden policies or blocked ports or exortinate "Business Rates" for a fixed address or multiple address. This is directly controllable by a municipality when they negotiate their licenses.

    • Welcome to Toronto! The following is a link to an article in today's Globe and Mail (Toronto and Canadian national newspaper) talking about what causes Geeks to stay in an area, especially diversity: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlet s.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/common/FullStory.html&cf=tg am/common/FullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config& vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&date=20010808&dateOffset =&hub=headdex&title=Headlines&cache_key=headdexCol umnists&current_row=7&start_row=7&num_rows=1
    • Sounds much like Amsterdam to me. Well protected rights for all groups. 24/7 nightlife food etc. Good power from reasonably clean sources.

      Oh and lots of sexy people and weed.

      Not forgetting also the good bandwidth here compared to the rest of Europe. Lots of Cable and DSL. Also a company starting the Powerline based connects from the powergrid.

      Small city no stress no rush.

      Downside, the tax here really hurts but at least you get something for it as opposed to having it burnt up funding right terrorist groups etc.

      Laterz

      Drink of the day :- Warp Core Breach

      1/2 oz goldschlager 1/2 oz tequila 1/2oz Jack Daniels. Mix and shoot.
      • Well, you're almost correct. Everything is correct except for the food. The food sucks in Amsterdam to a level not matched by any European city of similar size, with the exception of cities in the Scandanavian countries.

        On my last six visits to Amsterdam, I was utterly amazed at how well the Dutch can slaughter cuisines that I previously thought couldn't be messed up. Mexican Stew? When's the last time I've had Mexican Stew in Texas or Mexico? Hahahaha.

        There's good Asian food in Holland. And good cheese. The bread is better than the states, but not as good as in Belgium or France. Oh yes, and if fries are your thing, nobody does fries like the Dutch. But beyond that, good luck.

        For the rest of it, you're dead on, though. I truly love Holland, although I prefer Den Hague and Haarlem to Amsterdam.
    • Some of your best points are the ones a local government have direct control over.
      • Housing. Housing codes, rent controls, lease terms, satellite antennas, and noise laws can all be adjusted for "geek friendliness". Geeks need cat5 cabling, additional electricity (no artificial caps on residential power), and satellite antennas, municipal laws should ensure that anyone can put up a dish, overriding gated community rules. Landlords need to be held accountable (with criminal punishments and a prosecutor willing to do their job) for safe and fair lodgings and possibly rent control laws. Noise laws should tolerate late night barbeques.
      • Laws. Anti-alcohol laws need to be completely eliminated, or so reduced in scope as to be forgotten. Liquor stores should be open until 2AM. Bars should stay open until 4AM. Downtown businesses, especially restaurants, should be permitted to stay open very late. Support businesses such as banks and laundromats need to be encouraged to stay open "geek hours".
      • Network Access. This is one point where a city council must have some backbone when dealing with monopoly cable or telco operators. The next time the cable franchise comes up for renewal, let all bidders know that the contract will require open and fair access to *ALL* competition. So what if AOL/TW doesn't want to play, your cable customers will be much better off without such greedy megacorps. Require that the "owners" of the actual cable and phone wires provide colo space to a large number of alternate providers. Require that no ISP can block servers or have unreasonable "anti-geek" AUPs. Create a hi-tech enforcement team inside your police department and prosecutors office to monitor all ISPs and carriers, and aggressively smackdown those who are not geek friendly.

      A few other things a local government can do.
      • Law Enforcement. Create a special hi-tech law enforcement group, both police and a prosecutors office, and hire tech-savy judges. Create an educational fund so all those who have to deal with hi-tech crime are as educated as the average geek. Know that a port scan is not a crime, that an IDENT request is not a breakin attempt, and that a sysadmin who regularly runs nmap against her own network is not a cracker. Prosecute "Theft of Trade Secrets" cases, go after mega-corps with unreasonable EULAs and AUPs. Assist local businesses with tracking down and prosecuting crackers. Go after the armed gangs hi-jacking truckloads of CPUs and memory chips.
      • Libraries. Beef up the local libraries with both the classical material, and create a hi-tech section. Install computers and excellent internet connectivity. Allow any adult to have unblocked access, and provide for censorware for children's access but allow their parents to fill out a form allowing them unblocked access.
      • Schools. Get computers and internet access into every one of your schools, from K to 12. Provide scholarships or educational programs for every one of your teachers, require them to maintain a minimum level of computer competence. Test the teachers every year. Hire clued-in computer teachers. Require a healthy mix of computer technologies, ensure there are macintoshes, linux boxes, and specialty labs with sparcstations, hp hardware, IBM rs6000, mini computer, routers. Create "magnet schools" or whatever the local buzzword is, which have additional technology oriented courses including advanced mathematics, electronics design and repair, auto mechanics, medical and law studies.
      • Schools, part II. Outlaw corporate interference in school life. No sponsorships. No exclusive contracts for sugary drinks. No commercial laden morning news programs on televisions in every classroom.
      • Traffic. Create a working public transportation system. Encourage bicycles. Create non-motorized pathways running from many points in the residential areas to the centres of office space. Geeks like to walk/run/ride to work when the weather permits. Buses should run 24 hours/day. Rebuild a pedestrian friendly downtown with lots of restaurants, bars, parks, mom&pop shops. Ottawa needs to have sheltered sidwalks, build European-style arcades over the areas where people will have to walk in the rain or snow.

      When a local government starts to act in the interests of its local citizens, it will become more attractive to the affluent and highly mobile work force. Make that statement the core of every city council meeting.

      the AC
      [Ottawa? I could make a comment about warm weather year round, but there is nothing you can do about that :-]

      • Sounds like you want everyone else to adjust to the quirks of a few people. No wonder some geeks have gotten the prima donna reps! Businesses will stay open later if it makes economic sense for them to. Unless Ottawa is going to be importing geeks by the trainload, they aren't going to make up that much of the population, so why make businesses to do things that probably won't be in their favor. Likewise, a landlord with rent control has little incentive to improve and try to attract top paying tenants. Many people move into gated comunities because of the restricted covenants. It one way to make sure that they won't have neighbors who have loud all night parties or have several cars on blocks in the front yard (at least if it's against the bylaws and they are enforced). Also, while the school computer labs with high end hardware, transportation systems, bike paths, etc. sound nice, from other posters, it sounds as if the area is already pretty heavily taxed and probably wouldn't want to pay any more. That is unless the implemented a special geek payroll tax where these workers would pay extra for the amenities used to attract the companies.

        BTW, why are so many Slashdotters so obsessed with drinking and partying until practically dawn?

      • Perhaps this is your laundry list, half of this I don't see most geeks caring tremendously about.

        Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae? Sure theres a bunch but most geeks earn enough to see their kids are in good schools.

        No advertising in the schools? Oh yeah - "Not gonna move to Ottawa - They've got Coke in their schools!" I'm sure Corel & Nortel recruiters field this issue all the time...

        Bicycle paths? Aren't bicycles those things most geeks hang on walls as some sort of trophies? Sure there are some bicycling nuts but they're mostly like those silly sea kayaks in the Pacific Northwest many geeks have and only used twice in 10 years (but love to try & drop into the conversation to impress MOTAS.)

        Hostility against big ISPs? Most geeks just want cheap, relaible, fast & customer service from an ISP that knows NTP from NNTP - couldn't care less if it comes from Rogers, Cox, or anyone else incl. Mom-n-Pop-ISP.

        Etc.

        • Looking back, my laundry list was composed from two points of view, the geek as employee, and the businesses likely to employ geeks. Both are what Ottawa are trying to attract, because without attracting the businesses, there is no need for geeks.

          I also forgot to throw in affordable child care. If a municipality doesn't nurture a good child care system in their community, one that businesses can take advantage of, then married geeks will not have any incentive to move up north.

          If you are a company trying to build a new R&D centre in Ottawa, and the local ISP doesn't know NTP from NNTP and outlaws servers and has crappy service and capped bandwidth, the geeks will know and won't move to your new building. Word about lousy ISPs gets around, and if Ottawa allows cr@pHome a 20 year exclusive monopoly for lousy, restrictive access, they won't attract much more hi-tech workers than the few trapped there now.

          Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae?

          Its not the geek with larvae, its a local pool of talent to recruit from over the next few decades. Businesses (errr, good, well managed businesses) choose to relocate based on a large number of factors, and having a tech-knowledgable school system is a big plus. It means that when kids grow up and graduate from university, they will probably stay in the area. Berkeley and Stanford are the reason Silicon Valley exists, as MIT and some Ivy League schools account for Boston's leap into hi-tech. The education effect goes all the way down to grade school level, you can't have top notch universities without a good stream of local talent feeding them.

          the AC
    • How about

      1) Suburban sprawl on both sides, with a greenbelt in the middle, and a decaying pile of city in the dead center?
      2) The high tech community bordering on farmland and/or in suburban hell?
      3) Strange laws that say you can't have garage sales, clotheslines, etc
      4) 50%+ taxes
      5) Enforced francophony
      6) Lousy pick of jobs, and low pay in almost all of them

    • Sounds like the brainwashers did a number one you. I most techies that I know wouldn't give a shit if all the fags got AIDS and died a miserable death. They'd also like to see corporations stop spreading the bullshit about a programmer shortage so they can import "cheap" labor from Asia. I waste more time re-implementing stuff that they totally fuck up. They company would be money ahead if they just had me or any of the other native programmers do it from the beginning.

      I'm so fucking sick of all this politically correct horse shit. I can't wait for China to try to nuke the coasts. They would be doing us a favor by getting rid of most of people who want special protections.

      • Re:Things I've seen important to folks (Score:4, Insightful)

        by maggard ( 5579 ) <michael@michaelmaggard.com> on Wednesday August 08, 2001 @02:54PM (#2125720) Homepage Journal
        No brainwasher got to me - I'm a gay man who along with likely a lot of straight folks wishes slugs like you would dry up in the sun & blow away. However failing that you're a perfect study as to why strong local communities & laws protecting folks from discrimination are important and how they're critical to developing a high tech community.

        As to your employer being wiser to fire the non-whatever-you-are folks and going with your sort: Post their email address and I'm sure someone would be happy to pass your comment along.

        Moderators: Read the original before calling this one - I refuse to dignify it with quoting but also refuse to let this sort of garbage go unchallenged. It's on topic because it's exactly the sort of issues that make one place attractive to high-tech employers/employees & others not.

    • Also leases that start on some synchronized date (Sept. 1 for Boston or June 1 for Montreal) are anathama.

      That's July 1st in Quebec (Montreal included), for the record.

    • You forgot nude beaches.

      Seriously.

      Anyplace that has a public nude beach is unlikely to have annoying people like fundamentalists telling others what they should think.

      And the bars should stay open until 4AM at the earliest.

  • desirable traits. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by saintlupus ( 227599 )

    i'm probably a bit odd for a slashdot reader in that i actually _like_ support jobs.... not so much the call center variety, but there's nothing that i like more than working for the IT department in a college or university. the pay isn't always the best, but the low pressure environment and the variety of day to day work makes up for it for me.

    so i'd have to say that the two biggies for me are a few largish colleges in the area, and a fairly low cost of living. right now i'm in buffalo and i love it. cheap rent, great restaurants, a wonderful art and music scene; everything i could ask for. i've spent time in all the continental states (except for oklahoma and delaware) and in all their major cities, and this is my favorite.

    (yeah, i know, i'm the only one in the city who isn't actively trying to escape. :P )

    --saint
  • ...Urban Growth Boundary [metro-region.org].

    Designed specifically to keep a city geographically small to keep public transit effective, reduce the need for future roads (which actually encourages more traffic instead of handling existing load), and prevent urban sprawl. It also has the added side benefit of keeping people from moving here, because you can't go move to the middle of nowhere and drive in without buying a farm in the mountains or commuting from Vancouver/southwest Washington. (Oregon's full, we don't want you.)

    Chicago also has an urban growth boundary, but Illinois isn't exactly strict about enforcing it, however.

  • A future (Score:5, Informative)

    by Kefaa ( 76147 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2001 @11:48PM (#2168734)
    Specifically, I look for the following:

    Alternate jobs in the same line of work. This means competition for the best jobs but also that jobs exist should I decide to move on.

    Cost of living. Forget what I get paid, what do I get get to keep relative to similar money in other towns. ($95k in DC versus Baltimore)

    Very good schools at two levels. First, for my children, elementary/high schools. Then for what it brings to the area one or two good technical colleges. The first is far easier than the second but most places seem to succeed or fail at both.

    Good cultural opportunities. Sports, Theater, Arts.

    Good public transport. Even if you build the ideal city I will still live in the suburbs and want to commute without a headache.

    Fair taxes. I do not mind paying my share but it needs to be fair, and get me at once. I am tired of getting five different tax bills.

    And seeing where you are from I just have to add, nice weather...

    From this and the previous posters you see why this is hard to accomplish. Most cities do not have the billions of dollars necessary to start a college/university, build schools, public transportation, and cultural facilities.

    Start with jobs. If you have them, they will come...

  • Obviously, everyone has their own criteria about what makes a good place to live.

    Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of things that are near the top of my list for me:

    1. Good job market. This is pretty obvious, but I'm surprised not too many people are saying it. I want to live in a place where I have options as far as jobs go. This helps to two ways. First, there are more companies competing for my services, so I'm likely to get a higher salary/better benefits/etc. Second, if for some reason I need to switch jobs, I can switch without a lot of problems. If you live in a place that only has a handful of high tech companies, it's much harder to move to a different job.

    Good ratio of salary to cost-of-living. It doesn't matter if you get paid more in a particular area if you're spending all your money on housing/food/taxes/etc.

    Quality of life. This is where every person basically has to decide for themselves what's important. When you are coming out of school, things like night life are important. However, as you get older, things like quality of schools and health care have more importance.

    I've lived in a few different places, and I've found that Baltimore is definitely a great city for high-tech. There are plenty of high-tech companies in and around the area (lots of game companies in particular), the cost of living is great (especially compared to D.C.), there are a lot of cultural and recreational activities, the education and health care systems are top-notch (Johns Hopkins/U of MD), and because it isn't a "trendy" city it isn't overbuilt.

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