Buying Sun Sparcs for Personal Use? 29
sid crimson asks: "I'm looking to add a Sun Sparc to my home setup so I can cut my teeth on Solaris/Sparc. Maybe there are slashdotters who would offer some insight as to which workstations might be best suited to a budget-minded someone wanting to learn SunOS 2.6 all the way through Solaris 7 & 8? Maybe some specifics as to the need for a 'framebuffer' and other options available for Sun hardware." If one is looking for a Sparc or Sparc Hardware, you might try looking at this earlier article which discussed online vendors that sell Sparc hardware. That article is a couple of years old, however, so I imagine the seller landscape has changed slightly. If anyone knows of other sites or shops that specialized in Sparc hardware that may not have been mentioned in the previous article, please share them here.
Solaris 8 -- some hardware nologer supported (Score:2)
If you don't need Solaris 8, and live in the Wash. DC area, I know a couple SS 1 and 2's that might be available.
Some types: (Score:4, Informative)
- LX/ELC/Sparcstation 1/2: Very old, not worth looking at if you want any kind of decent performance, especially with Solaris 7/8; indeed, some aren't supported under Solaris 8.
- Sparcstation 4/5: Vaguely reasonable systems, but quite slow. Processor speeds vary from 70MHz to 170MHz, so check what you get.
- SparcStation/Server 10/20: Nice enough systems; they support up to 4 CPU's (10 only supports 2). CPU speeds vary from 60 to 200, but don't let the clock speed fool you; the 100+ clock speed CPUs are Ross Hypersparcs, and even the 150MHz models are only about as fast as the 60MHz Supersparcs. Ideally, try to get one with the VSIMM which gives you 24bit colour.
- Ultra 1/2: This is what you should seriously try to get hold of as these have acceptable performance; they come with CPUs ranging from 140 up to 200MHz, although some newer Ultra 2's have faster CPUs. Try to get a Creator model, as this has (a) a better graphics card and (b) an onboard fast ethernet (the earlier models only had 10Mbit). These systems can run 64 bit Solaris, with the proviso that carefully crafted Assembly code can crash the system. Oh, and the Ultra 2 can have 2 CPUs.
- Ultra 5/10: Sun's first try at cheap workstations, using IDE disks. Reasonable systems and worth looking at if you can get cheaply, but make sure you get enough RAM so it doesn't swap to the slow disks!
- Sunblade 100: The new cheapo model; haven't seen one, but they seem nice enough on paper, although they only run Solaris 8.
For frame buffers, try to get one with an Elite or Creator card ideally; failing that, try for a Raptor (NB: main feature of this card is ability to have 8 and 24 bit colour depth simultaneously, but newer versions of Solaris support this in software) or at least a PGX24. Most of the other cards are only capable of 8 bit colour.As with all systems, make sure you get enough RAM! An absolute minimum is 64MB, but you really want 128 or more. Bear in mind Sun RAM is expensive, and normal EDO/DIMM's won't cut it, although some people have had luck with normal DIMMs on the Sunblade 100. Check the Sun FAQ's and usenet archives for what is required.
I'd recommend trying for an Ultra 1/2, especially as these are beginning to show their age in some places (certainly, where I work the users are complaining they are too slow, but these are people trying to do 3d seismic imaging). As always, eBay is a good place to look.
Finally, try to make sure you get a monitor with the system, as they tend not to support VGA monitors (exceptions are the Raptor cards and the new Sunblade 100's).
Re:Some types (Score:1)
A SparcStation 5/170 is almost twice as fast as a 5/110 and is the only SparcStation to use a TurboSparc CPU. Linux (in the past) had problems running on it (crashed like crazy, due to the CPU), but NetBSD ran just fine. The problems with Linux may have been solved. The SS5/170 performs a bit better than a 200 MHz Pentium. However, under high load (ie. webserver) it performs quite a bit better than Intel hardware, probably due to the fact that task switching on a Sparc CPU is much cheaper. Quite a nifty little box.
I now use a Ultra 10 (running Solaris 8) with a 440 MHz UltraSparc IIi and it feels quite a bit faster than my 433 MHz Celeron box. I'm using the on-board videocard (PGX24?) and it has a standard HD15 VGA connector. I think the Ultra 5 does too.
Uses for a 'shoebox' Sparc. (Score:2)
Load OpenBSD on an LX with 48Mb RAM and you have a nice little secure box you can stick in the corner running TinyDNS and never have to think about it again.
I was playing around with LX systems as MP3 players (they have onboard 16-bit stereo audio chipsets) but got stuck finding a netbootable OS that supports the DBRI audio and was fast enough to decode MP3 in realtime. The LX is just a bit too slow for this, a Sparc 5 can keep up with MP3 playback with no trouble.
Re:Uses for a 'shoebox' Sparc. (Score:1)
It's a great little machine, just slow. It makes a nice X server.
Don't get a monitor! (Score:2)
Most production Sparc installations don't have any Sun monitors, and order their servers without a video card.
Spend the money you save from not buying a monitor or frame buffer on RAM, especially if you plan to run Solaris --- Solaris thrives on extra memory.
Re:Some types: (Score:2, Informative)
Tatung - I think their clones are only up through Sparc 5 equiv.
Integrix - don't know much about them
Ross - they made the really fast hypersparc chips, but also made some workstations. I have a hyperstation 30, and it's a good box.
Re:Some types: (Score:1)
The Sun Ultra 5/10 is also available in a SCSI model. These are your best bet for a fast, inexpensive Sun box that will run Solaris 2.6, 7, and 8. Look for a used one for under $1000.
Re:Some types: (Score:1)
According to this site [aceshardware.com], you are wrong about SS10 being limited to two CPU. Using 2 Ross double-CPU module, you could get up to four CPU on a SS10. I don't have any first hand experience with SMP on SS10, I am just researching it for my own box.
Also, SS10 CPU module start at 33 Mhz (that is what I have in mine right now).
Re:Some types: (Score:2)
Any old sparc will do. (Score:2, Insightful)
What you really want to learn is the trickery of sparc hardware which is basically all at the boot prompt, stuff like reconfiguring devices and single user mode.
After that, run up solaris on intel and learn the ins and out of it, basically the same as sparc as far as software is concerned.You'll have a much faster machine unless you want to buy an Ultra, and you can install OpenBSD(4c) or Debian (4m+) on your sparc and have a neat little system.
Try out the differences between sysv and Linux/BSD style systems like NFS, as well as things that are just broken out of the box. Read fixsolaris.txt.(!)
Learn that solaris is just a solid kernel with the basic tools, as with most sysv systems. Ignore the rest of the crap unless you really need it (gui tools). Learn low level commandline configuration and you'll be right (you can't get the disksuite gui up on a terminal). Other cool stuff costs money (veritas).
I recommend an Ultra-2, or a Sparc-20 to be frugal (Score:4, Informative)
In general, SBUS cards are interchangable between the Sparc 5/10/20 and Ultra-1/2 product lines. Memory is interchangable between the Sparc 20, Ultra-1, and Ultra-2.
The Sparc 20 is readily available at reasonable (think $200-$500 for a complete system, no monitor) prices . An Ultra-2 system with one CPU will run $600-$2000. I keep my Sparc 5/10/20 systems around to run OpenBSD.
Speaking of monitors, you do not need a video card, VSIMM, keyboard, or a monitor to use a Sparc as a server.
All these systems will happily use the serial port 'A' as their console, from power-on through system administration. Most Sun shops have maybe one monitor (if that), and one keyboard. Nearly every sun server I have ever dealt with has been serial consoled and networked.
All Sparc 5/10/20 systems and older Ultra-1 systems include an onboard 'le' ethernet interface. Some newer Ultra-1 and all Ultra-2 systems include an onboard 'hme' FastEthernet interface. If you purchase a Sparc 20 or Ultra system with a 10Mbps ethernet, you will want to look for a HME 100Mbps (FastEthernet) card as your first add-on SBUS card.
About the monitor... (Score:2, Informative)
Want to know about older Sparc hardware? (Score:3, Informative)
Hope this helpful. If you want to run older SUNOS AND solaris 8, you might need two different machines, as the ones that SUpport SUNOS might not be supported under Solaris 8 (or run Solaris 8 too slowly to be usuable in any real sense).
My Experience (Score:1)
Thus, I would say that you should go for a Sparc 10 or 20, or one of the Ultras if you want to try Solaris (Solaris/x86 can give you the same experience with Solaris on cheaper, faster hardware, though).
One word of warning: Sparc 4/5/10 uses SCA drives, which are weird and can be hard to find, whereas others (SS2, SS20, Ultra*) use SCSI-2, Ultra SCSI, or IDE. Though if somone in the Baltimore area wants to buy some 1 gig SCA drives, let me know.
Re:My Experience (Score:1)
Re:My Experience (Score:1)
Yeah, I was. Shows how much I know about SPARCS.
Re:My Experience (Score:1)
The sparcstation 5 and sparcstation 20 use SCA drives, but again these are pretty easy to find they're used in almost any server now-a-days. You'll again need to get ahold of the trays if your machine doesn't come with one.
I've got a gaggle of sparc hardware here. If you can grab an ultra 5 off of ebay, they're running for around $400 dollars now-a-days and make good first time solaris boxen.
Re:My Experience (Score:1)
Yeah, that's been my problem. A while back mwave was selling IBM 9 and 18 gig SCA drives for reasonably cheap. But getting ahold of the drive things can be a real PITA. I've got a free slot on my SS5 that I'd like to put a drive into but I can't get ahold of the mounting dealy (which is a rather nice design - I just wish my SS5 had come with 2 of them).
I would consider an Ultra5, but first I want to get ahold of a nice little Alpha. Sun really does make some nice hardware, and I'd like to have a (working) 64-bit machine (I've got an R5000 Indy that's not very cooperative about working). But I've already got a bunch of 32 bit sparcs and I'd like to try out some other systems first.
SCA Drives are easy to obtain (Score:2)
At DirtCheapDrives [dirtcheapdrives.com], CompGeeks [compgeeks.com] and several other vendors, I've found that SCA drives are actually five to ten bucks cheaper than the equivalent drive with a 68-pin 'standard' connector.
Coincidentally, for about eight bucks you can get an adapter that will allow using a drive with a SCA connector with a PC controller having a 50 or 68 pin SCSi cable.
Want ultra-cheap Sparc hardware? (Score:2)
Well, most of the locals don't know a Sparc if it came out their ass, and one model of the Sparc line (IPC? IPX?) looks like a monitor, which typically go real cheap - but it is a full workstation to the knowledgable!
Anyhow, you can bid on this stuff - and get it cheap - most of the time, memory is parted out, so you might have to scrounge that on another bid, or you might have to buy it from the high bidder, if he will let you. But here is where it gets really hard.
Keyboards and mice.
You see, these boxes used special keyboards and mice, especially the mice - pray you get one of the special mousepads for the optical mice. Anyhow, this auction parts the keyboard and mice to seperate items, and hence, auctions - so, after you have got your IPX/IPC, you then need to pay attention and bid on a box of keyboards and mice, in the hopes of getting a keyboard and mouse for the box, plus maybe a mousepad - if it is one of the special optical mice.
It may be cheaper to buy those parts from Sun. But anyhow, you can walk away from one of those auctions spending $25-50 and get a whole office full of workstations, simply because most people at the auction want PeeCee's...
Ultra 1s, CHEEP! Sun Blades too (Score:1)
1. CRA in Phoenix, AZ (602-944-1548) has Ultra 1s complete with 20" Monitor, 4GB SCA HDD, 128MB RAM for about $200-$400. Some systems actually come with the Creator3D card (be sure to ask for it).
2. Not sure what your budget is, but SUN is offering SUN Blades for under $1000 if you don't want anything fancy. One neat add-in is the PC card, for about $250 you can get a 700MHz Pentium on a chip and run both windows/solaris on the same box... I THINK you can run windows inside an X window under solaris at full speed...
3. If you find/want some hardware let me know, I have various SUN parts I can part with for cheep. SCA drives, drive brackets, memory, SPARC IPX, etc.
4. Though it cannot support Solaris 8, Old SUN equipment is still in use a lot of places. At my office here we use two SPARC 2 (Pizza boxes) as DNS servers. They have the longest uptime of any machine in the office and only cost $40 each. For playing around though, they are a bit slow, but you can't beat $40. SPARC 1/2 can usually be found on eBay.
Re:Ultra 1s, CHEEP! Sun Blades too (Score:1)
A) SUN blade can take more or less standard PC100 memory, meaning it's stupid to buy anymore than the minimum from Sun
B) The PC card is neat, but the memory is not your run of the bill PC memory... it's SODimms (a la laptops) and I'm not sure if you can plug in laptop memory or if you're stuck paying Sun for the right stuff
C) Oh, and as far as full speed goes, I've seen the earlier one running remotely (i.e. logging into the sunblade from a linux box and exporting the display, you can now run windows inside an X window.), and I've used it locally. Using it locally, the mouse (emulated) is super jerky; I'm hoping to borrow a second USB mouse and hook it up directly to the PC-card, and hope that fixes it. Running remotely, I didn't notice it being as jerky, but I didn't really get to play around with it; my friend was showing it off (and actually, in the remote case, it was running on an Ultra (10 I think, but maybe >10), not the sunblade.
Got lots of these... (Score:1)
Don't worry about getting a head (graphics card, keyboard & mouse), you can use a serial terminal off of the first serial port. However, if you get an Ultra 5 / 10 making this work will be easier, you can simply use a regular PC monitor as long as it's multi-sync (ie Sony or NEC).
-Aaron
sunhelp.org is your destination! (Score:5, Informative)
Since everyone and their brother has personal recommendations, here are mine, by category:
Category 1 -- Some cash to burn, want new toys
Sun Blade 100. I'd buy one of these new (less than $1000 from Sun) if I were only going to run Solaris 8. Nevermind that this thing is a PC in SPARC clothing. Hell, even the CPU is socketed! Gasp! Bear in mind that the Blade 100 can only run Solaris 8, 4/01 HW release or later.
Category 2 -- Something Ultra, mid-range prices
If I were to go out and buy a Sun machine today, it'd be an Ultra 2. They're a bit expensive still ($500-$900-ish), but can use 2 CPU's (on module boards), S-Bus cards, and has a UPA slot for a decent (read: Creator 3D) video board. They're also a VERY VERY solid machine. You can get an Ultra 1 for a bit less, but it only has 1 CPU (soldered to the mobo)....
Category 3 -- Less cash, more machine.
Here I'd recommend a SPARCstation 20. The only really acceptable configuration these days involves dual-75mhz processors, at least 128mb of RAM, and an SX video VSIMM. The SPARCstation 20 had a neat video configuration -- you could either use a TGX+ S-Bus video board (8-bit video only), or use the built-on-to-the-mobo SX (24-bit) frame buffer. The SX buffer is good, but you need to get a VSIMM to make it work (the mobo has no video RAM on it!). I paid ~$100 for my VSIMM from MemoryX [memoryx.net]. The SPARCstation 20 will run anything from Solaris 2.5.1 through Solaris 9 (yes, it works. We're a Gold Beta site... No, I can't burn you a copy!
Category 4 -- Even less cash, less performance
A SPARCstation 5 gives OK performance for a good price. Get a 110mhz SPARC 5. The standard 70mhz model is too dog-slow. The 170mhz model is weird; Linux doesn't support it at all... The architecture is just... weird.
The biggest trick to getting a decent Sun workstation is MEMORY. Don't skimp; get at least 128MB, shoot for 256MB (or anything over 192...) if at all possible.
Also remember that ALL of the workstations above use SCSI disks. They all have SCA connectors; your standard, run-of-the-mill SCSI disk won't work internal to the case. What I tend to do is use some variety of external disk pack with the SPARCstations to fit standard SCSI devices onto it. Right now, I have my 8x Yamaha CD burner plugged into the SPARCstation 20's external SCSI bus. It works great!
If you have any questions, please feel free to email me -- I actually enjoy answering SPARC & Sun-related questions... Email me at: dmurphy-slashdot AT nbvb DOT com.
Thanks!
--nbvb
Current Sun Reference Pricing (Score:3, Informative)
. . .
You can find a catalogue of recent Sun reference prices [unixhub.com] at UnixHub.com [unixhub.com]
UnixHub also has relevant short pieces e.g. on SparcBooks which may also be of interest. Look a little down the main page past the updates to the links on the left.
Disclaimer - I know the guy who runs the site.
Disclaimer - I hope he's not /.'d. You can read the reasons why (SDSL) on his site ;)
Just in case no one's already mentioned it SunHelp.org [sunhelp.org] is also a very handy site.