From Gang Bangers to Web Developers? 603
evenprime asks: "The Economist is running an article about a program that takes gang members in Milwaukee, sends them through rehab, and
teaches them web development so that they can have a decent paying job. I think this type of program - one that gives people the ability to help themselves - is a great idea, and it is something that many of us could help with. Do slashdot readers know of any similar programs in other places? If so, what type of qualifications do you think they would require before allowing someone to help teach web design?" Such programs are just too damned cool. Are there any others like it?
Gang bangers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Amen Brother (Score:2, Insightful)
Honest livings can be had in contruction, washing dishes, taking out garbage and what not that requires little trust. This is what criminals should end up doing. If they want to do more, and pay for it, good for them and good luck. Trade organizations realize this. You can't get so much as a plumber's liscense if you have a criminal record, and that's the way it should remain.
The damage to the IT proffesion's reputation is secondary to the real harm well trained criminals can do. Yes, dishonest people can and do aquire skills. Every learning institution and every proffesional organization tries to exclude the dishonest, but nothing's perfect. Programs like this start out with the dishonest and train them up. There is a much greater probability of these people doing harm with their knowledge because you have selected the worst of all people to start out. Gangs trained by police departments in Los Angeles have a record of being nothing but stronger for the effort.
This is very backward thinking in a country that will keep "hackers" away from computers forever.
Re:Oh, yeah. THIS is a good idea.... (Score:2)
Hell, fwiw, even Racine has gang problems. I remember my Grandma complaining about gangs in central OH.
Don't go dismissing shit you know nothing about. At least somebody, somewhere is doing something.
Re:Oh, yeah. THIS is a good idea.... (Score:2)
My point for your remedial reading, can't pass the SRA, misinterpreting, reactionary dumb ass is even though Milwaukee isn't a city the size of say LA or has the same magnitude of gang issues like Chicago it does not mitigate the fact that Milwaukee has serious gang problems of its own which needs to be addressed. And considering that when these problems flare up you get small children dying because of it I could care less that if I go to NY I would see gangs which are 10 times worse or truly "hardcore."
Re:Oh, yeah. THIS is a good idea.... (Score:2)
Re:Gang bangers? (Score:2)
but I know too many uneducated, good hearted people who bust their asses at a minimum wage job every day to try and pay the bills and feed their families to fully get behind giving criminals the opportunity that some law-abiding Americans won't get.
This sounds more like an argument for better education funding and opportunities in general. College is pretty much required if you want a good job anymore. I think that college should be an opportunity open to everyone, regardless of their income or status. Schools all over need better funding and better management. We, as a country, should be demanding this. We aren't going to get it from Bush. We need to make this a clear priority for the next election.
Whoops. Three years late. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Whoops. Three years late. (Score:3, Insightful)
What's a reformed gang banger going to get a legitimate job doing? Suppose he/she has been Livin tha Gangsta Life(TM) since a young age, and maybe doesn't have a solid education beyond, say, elementary or junior high. What options would be available? Fast food? Secretarial work? Telemarketing? Various forms of manual labor? Now, what do jobs like that pay? Minimum wage? $10/hr? $17/hr after 25 years?
Now look at a low paying web job. What do they pay? $35000/yr? $40000/yr? It's decent.
They should be pretty good at it. (Score:4, Funny)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Re:They should be pretty good at it. (Score:2)
Around here (Chicago) I've seen actual (as in rouge cans of spray-paint) graffitos that say "AIX" and "FTP".
Re:They should be pretty good at it. (Score:2)
Hell, in San Francisco I caught a few of them there IBM thugs spray painting penguins, peace signs, and hearts all over the place. Are they going to get reabhilitaed too?
Oh wait, we're not talking about corporate gang-bangers.....
It's a grand idea. (Score:2, Insightful)
Slapping a cheap band-aid on a failing educational system ("The city has a 60% high-school dropout rate") won't fix anything permanently. It's nice that he's helped 72 lost youth find gainful employment, but what of the tens of thousands who haven't receieved aftermarket intervention?
It's been done before... (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, wasn't this how Australia got *it's* start?
Hrm, actually... (Score:2)
If you join a gang, you learn their secret customs.
If you join a web group, you learn their secret locations for web documents
In a gang, you have undying loyality to the leader, without any justification why.
In a web group, you have undying loyality to your particular brand of web server, without any justification why.
In a gang, you are forced to do stupid things, like homemade tattoos.
In a web group, you're forced to use stupid products, like Weblogics.
In a gang, you carry a gun that you use a lot.
In a web group, you carry an ego that you could use to kill someone.
If you leave the gang, they try to kill you.
If you leave the web group, they kill your access.
See, very very similar.
Considering the current state of tech companies... (Score:5, Funny)
This is old, just look at IT (Score:2)
Think back to the last time you needed to install a program, you couldn't do it because you don't have "administrative rights." In other words, it's IT's turf, and you can't tread on it. Then you asked the IT guy that was floating around if he could do it, and he said "you need to talk to my administrator." In other words, knuck-knuck can't make those types of decisions, show some respect and go talk to little T-Moe if you want to get the hookup. So you go talk to little T-Moe and you say that it's Mission Critical and you need it ASAP. Well, he says "we have logged your request and we will assist you as soon as we have the resources." In other words, as soon as Big-C is finished with his 40 ounce and box of BBQ Wangs, he'll bounce on over to your cube and computer-jack your workstation for the couple of hours it takes him to install your application. Then you call little T-Moe when the job is done to say thanks, and all he says is "fuhgettaboutit."
This also poses another interesting question: were they gangbangers before or after they graduated from the Devry institute?
Seriously though, this program of troubled youths to web developers is something to watch closely and see how things turn out, if it ends up being positive and these kids really become upstanding citizens then we need to start more similar technology related programs.
But of course if it doesn't work out then this just means there will be a lot more websites that steal your credit card information...
Have to learn how to read first (Score:2, Informative)
I spoke with someone who was actually did urban education. She came into it wanting to teach urban kids advanced skills and ended up teaching them basic reading and writing skills.
There are alot of skills Slashdotters take for granted that these kids probably don't know. Like reading at a 9th grade level or knowing multiplication tables or how to write a paragraph.
Brian Ellenberger
Re:Have to learn how to read first (Score:2, Funny)
Have you been reading the same Slashdot that I have?
Re:Have to learn how to read first (Score:2)
Later on I realized that it wasn't the case, and asked the guy who interviewed me why they did that.
It was a reading test.
They wanted to see if I could read.
They've had applicants fail the reading test.
I was speechless. I read so much, every day, I couldn't imagine someone without that ability.
Hell, I can't imagine what I'd DO all day without the ability to read.
Tech skills not enough (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that web development is still a pretty decent entry-level job. While there are not as many new public web sites, most big companies are still investing a lot of time & money in their intranets. Web development is becoming like every other kind of software development -- 90% of it is done for internal company use. That's not going to change anytime soon.
Reminds me of Thompson's W-2 program (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds great, but many of these people, as I understand it, had never worked before, and were fired shortly after being placed because they had no workplace skills that emphasized things like showing up on time or calling in if they were sick. They had welding skills, but there's a lot more that goes into getting someone ready to join the workforce. Specific-skill training seems a temptingly easy solution to transition-to-workforce problems, but it has to be part of a bigger plan if it's going to work.
Industrial age (Score:2)
Funny. Certainly I am not the first to notice that Industrial-Age schools and Industrial-Age prisons are very similar to factories in terms of set times and hierarchy.
Re:Reminds me of Thompson's W-2 program (Score:2)
Agreed. Did you hear any judging in my post, or were you reading judgement into a relatively simple and straightforward recitation of facts? I taught people going into job placement programs for many years. I'm well aware of their circumstances.
Those of us with agendas shouldn't be too quick to carelessly project them onto others -- especially when posting anonymously.
Oh good... more wannabee web developers... (Score:2, Insightful)
I know a phone tech who wants $36,000 a year cuz he is "really a web developer". He'd be better off learning what DNS means.
I think the answer to poverty is not quick-and-easy training in some buzz-word technology or how to use some piece of software. I think that the groups involved in leadership of minority groups have to take some responsibility for their own community failings and start to drive their kids towards real, thorough (that means "hard work") education.
Hrmm... (Score:2)
Why don't they train them for more stable jobs? Like something in healthcare or public service. The technology market is flooded anyway. So these people will recieve this training and have all the "promises" and then they won't be able to find a job much better than food service.
Wouldn't the black market and the drug trade seem to have better pay offs?
STRIVE (Score:2)
http://www.strivecentral.com/ [strivecentral.com]
Similar outlook, but for profit. (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh, just great. (Score:2)
So now we've got technology savy, pissesd off, gang bangers. They'll be using the web to communicate and organize a revolution against the penal system and all Hell will break loose! Hey, I have an idea, lets give them guns while were at it!
Okay, but seriously... why web development? It's really a dead-end job and dying off at that. Give 'em something better, like *nix system administration or OO programming. At least then I'd look better coming into job interviews.
Rehab? (Score:2)
I was just sort of passively taking this in as being a bit stereotypical. Not all gang members need rehab. Being in a gang does not make you a drug user and not all people in gangs have any serious problems.
How many of us would call our own little geek cults gangs? Ever have one of your group wronged by someone then have the group dislike and/or take action against a person? Would you call Masters of Deception (MOD) a gang? There's a few parallels between street gangs and geek cults, so... *shrug*
This is what our prison systems should be doing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated. Classes all day, homework all night. Give them job skills. Rehabilitate criminals into functional members of society so that when they get out they know how to do something other than be a pain in the ass!
Of course, is most of the world this will never happen, because prison building and maintenance is now an important industry, and rehabilitation of criminals is detrimental to construction companies, their employees, police unions and their members, as well as prison employee unions and their members. Welcome the the twenty-first century, where deprivation of human freedom is a commodity.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Why should criminals get their education paid for by taxpayers while honest folks have to pay for their own education? Why stop with web development? Why not expand that to things like aeronautical engineering?
Want to teach them something? Teach them how to sweep litter off the sidewalks or pick up roadkill from the streets. Leave web development to those who have some software development skills. After all, not everything can simply be whipped up in FontPage.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
That mindset is exactly the problem with criminal rehabilitation. Do criminals deserve to be repaid with kindness for their actions? No. Does treating them like subhuman scum do us any good in the long run? No.
If we are going to spend a fortune incarcerating people for long periods of time, we might as well make sure that they can be worthwhile members of society when they come out. It beats the hell out of them returning to life with the rest of us, angry and useless. I would rather a criminal leave prison with with useful skills and social graces than to have him leave prison and kill someone a few months later because he still does not know how to exist in a civilized society.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Why shouldn't higher education be a right just as K-12 education? You can't get a very good job with just a K-12 education anymore. Everyone knows this. So why don't we extend education for the extra 4 years? Why should it be limited to those who already have the means to pay for it? Seems like it's those who don't have the means that need it the most. As for educating people in prison, I'm all for it. I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't do what we can to make sure that the people coming out of prison are equipped to do something with their lives besides commit more crimes.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Because a lot of people who deserve and desire to go to higher education can't. Lets spend money getting those people into college before getting bubba and his girlfriend into Web Design 101.
And yes, I am bitter because this hits very close to home. Student aid, loans, scholarships are bunk. If a prison gets free education, I'll be rioting if I have to pay a tuition check. Even though I'm out of college now, my girlfriend is getting ready to enroll -- she makes just above minimum wage working with the handicapped because she loves her job. She deserves to go to school, which is something she desperately wants to do, and can't because she doesn't have the means.
Most prisoners already have a career. Hours are great, benefits suck though.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
You are assuming that most criminals *want* to be something other than a pain in the ass.
Some will, certainly.
Many won't.
Problems occur when, as happens every few decades, someone has the bright idea that *all* prisoners should just be "rehabilitated", and then sent out into the world as productive, honest members of society.
Any real scheme should take into account the fact that a large number of people in prison are truly criminal - inclined to committing crimes - and will continue to do so. Help the ones who are interested in being helped, but don't assume they all will be.
The primary purpose of prison, IMO, should be neither punative nor rehabilitative - it should be to keep the prisoners from further harming the rest of society.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Seems like you've set up a nice straw man here, but let's try to get back to the original idea at hand. People go to prison when they commit a crime. They don't stay there forever usually. They are eventually released. Now, as it stands, they spend their time in prison learning new criminal tricks and probably developing some pretty bad psychological problems. So, what happens when they are released? Well, they are even worse off than when they went in. They have no new (legal) skills. They can't get a decent job. They are by all means second-class citizens. What's the likely outcome? They turn back to crime since they have no future.
The proposed alternative here is that we provide them with education so that they will have an alternative to crime when they are released. Nobody is saying that all criminals can or will be rehabilitated. But there are large numbers of criminals incarcerated for relatively minor crimes. They'll probably be in for 5 years or less. That's a lot of time that could be used in a productive way. We don't know what the success rate would be for such a program, but I think it's worth trying, simply because the possibility of improving society is worth the very little risk that such a program entails.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Most nations? I don't think too many inmates in Turkish prisons have basic cable, same for the other countries who run their justice systems the proper way-- by punishing their criminals instead of coddling them in some nice warm jail with plenty of food and TVs. Yeah, prisoners in the U.S. sure learn their lesson by having the state take care of them, and all they do is work in the prison laundry or something a few hours a day.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population was educated.
Imagine if, instead of being locked down all day, the US prison population (or at least the 1st -degree murderers and habitual felons) was executed. Then my tax dollars might go towards more worthwhile things than feeding, clothing and housing this subhuman trash, like maybe helping the families of their victims.
And none of this 'humane' execution nonsense. Use a wood chipper. Murderers dropped in head-first, and rapists and child molesters lowered in, slowly, feet-first.
~Philly
Moron... (Score:2)
You have absolutely no clue what US prisons are like, do you? I happen to know people that work in prisons, and one of my brother's friends happens to be in prison right now. It's a twisted, fucked up, sick place to be. You try to make it sound like the lap of luxury.
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Then I'd get my ass arrested to get a free education. Seriously. Why struggle to work while going to school, so you can pay the bills, when you could sit in jail for free and get a free education?
MadCow
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
I got an idea...
Instead of spending *even more money* on our prison population turning a trip to the cooler into a semi-vaction where society's thugs and hoodlums can hang out, pump iron, and chill with their friends, we make them work for their food and take away their TV.
After a long, back-breaking day in the fields growing their corn and beans, if they want entertainment, we can set up a lending program with the nearest library (since we're paying for the library anyway).
I'm quite curious where this idea of "rehabilitation" comes from, when the entire point of prison is to punish criminals and keep them segragated from society.
If recidivism is your worry, we can cure it. Chop the hands off thieves and castrate sexual predators. How's that?
Re:This is what our prison systems should be doing (Score:2)
Oh come on! They aren't gonna be sending them to Harvard! They'll get an education similar to what you would get at a community college. As for the fairness of it, I don't see the problem. We suffer as a society due to crime. If we can reduce the crime rate by teaching criminals to do something worthwhile with their lives, then it helps us all. Whining about the fairness of it seems really petty and childish.
Some people choose to go to school, some people decide to do drugs and be a thug.
I don't think you can simplify it like that. There are extremely complex reasons why people commit crimes. Sure, there is a point where they actually decide to do something illegal, but there is usually a long list of circumstances that lead up to that point and have a huge influence on the decision. Before you flip out and start pounding out a reply, hear me out. I'm not trying to excuse criminals for their actions. I'm not saying they shouldn't go to prison for it. I'm saying that life isn't fair and some people get a big head start and others start with their feet shackled. But we're all expected to live together and not break the law. The least we can do is try to keep people that screw up somehow from spiralling downward in a way that means they'll never be anything but a burden to society.
And if you think people that murder and rape others can come out of prison rehabilitiated, then I just hope they move into your neighborhood rather than mine.
I don't think anyone was saying that every criminal should be rehabilitated and released. I'm sure that many will still spend their entire life in prison. But there are many others that will be released at some point. Some after only a couple of years. We should allow them to do something productive with their time so that they will have a viable alternative to crime. I think that the benefits to society of such a program outweigh the drawbacks.
every major city has this (Score:2)
I hope it helps. I hope these companies are realistic to students about the saturated market.
I used to work for one such company (Score:2, Informative)
I was a project manager at a company called CitySoft [citysoft.com] back when it was just 7 employees. It has grown significantly since then. Part of the growth was due to limited initial funding, we had to grow organically from new business. More recently, infusions of modest amounts of VC (some from the like of Esther Dyson and others) have allowed expansion from the initial Cambridge/Boston location to NYC and Baltimore.
My experience there was on the whole a very positive one. We were successful at finding talented youth from inner-city Boston and getting them trained in basic web development tools and techniques. At the time this was Front Page and Photoshop. While I protested FP somewhat initially, I came to realize that the almost immediate ability to contribute the the company's work that FP allowed was more valuable than FP's notable drawbacks. Part of my role as a PM was in some respects to filter out some of those issues. Towards the end of my time there we began using Allaire's Cold Fusion, and I suspect that the developers probably get some training in that now.
As with any operation like this, there were some problems. For most developers, this was their first experience of gainful employment in their lives. The friction between their new 9-5 lifestyle and their situations at home caused difficulties, as did the fact that old habits die hard--frankly, some of these kids had never been required to perform diligently and consistantly in their lives. The coat and tie dress code was another area of complaint (and not just with the developers I managed). In essence though, that was the real challenge of the company: changing the outlook of these kids from one of entitlement to one of empowerment. While most normal businesses don't need to confront these social aspects of employment so acutely, CitySoft's mission and hiring policy required it. Nick Gleason [citysoft.com], the CEO, had done a good deal of homework on how to attack these issues, and had some solid ideas that he brought into practice.
In hindsight, I was lucky to be a part of such an organization. The fact that the company seems to have lived through the
--cleetus
(The also do darn fine web development work too. It's well worth giving them a shot.)
Kevin Mitnick is in a program like this... (Score:2)
You don't get it (Score:2, Insightful)
From reading
Ok, All I could think of after reading that title. (Score:2)
.... is "So now the porn stars ar emaking their own websites?"
I can't be alone here
Oh great... (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Oh great... (Score:2)
it's not exactly a fair fight, either. i mean, considering that the php'stas get to zip around in their pimp rizzides while the perl g's have to ride camels.
Emacs/Vi (Score:2, Funny)
I can almost hear the Script Kiddies... no, Script Playah's saying: "Word, yo! Emacs be tha muthafuckin gleem bling bling! i get all up on that, and then I be rollin on my 20s wit my posse bringin up tha linux rear, word! Where the cristal at?"
Re:Oh great... (Score:2)
--Blair
How about gang member to.. (Score:2)
TROSA: Excellent Rehab and Training Program (Score:2, Informative)
TROSA stands for Triangle Rehabilitation Options for Substance Abusers and is a fabulous model of how drug rehab programs can work. Founded around 1995, they're based in the Research Triangle area of NC, and currently have over 300 participants in their residential program.
Here's the idea. Participants, after qualifying for the program, live on site, dorm-style, for the 2-2.5 years that they are in the program. Discipline and scheduling are tight (not much idle time for them to fall back into old habits) and contact with old friends and family are limited. During their time in program, they learn trades by working in the 7 different businesses that TROSA runs.
TROSA gets only a small portion of its funding from governmental sources. The majority of its funding is raised by running businesses owned and operated by TROSA: masonry, moving company, laundry, painting, catering, landscaping, and others. While the participants work, their "salary" goes into a savings account that is given to the participant upon his/her graduation from the program, along with a car, a shared apartment, and job placement services. This way, not only are the participants rehabilitated, but they're actually given a head-start on their new life!
Having volunteered with TROSA in the past, and having seen the enormous progress made in their 6 years of operation, I'm convinced this is a worthwhile model for other programs to follow and that job skills training needs to be a part of any program that seeks to help people get on with their new lives so they don't lapse into recidivism.
why not? (Score:3, Funny)
Yes we have a similar program here . . (Score:2)
We have a similar program here. I believe its called MCSE. Basically people with NO tech skill whatsoever can finish the course in a few weeks - and are then qualified for a variety of jobs such as:
- Win2000 administrator
- Senior level IIS developer, microsoft
- Cable monkey
- Solitaire player
- Dancing girl for Steve Ballmer
Some folks are missing the point (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone at some point in their life had some sort of influence that helped them along. Be it advice from a teacher, some news story or article, parent, or friend it got you where you are today. I see nothing wrong with giving these kids a different path to follow. In the end it will be up to the kid. If he/she stays the course and changes their life or fails. I'm just glad that someone is trying to help.
Goran
yes, there are other programs (Score:2)
What make this interesting is that the program pays these kids to come to school and learn technology. Every day, most of them show up to learn the basics of computers, web design, etc in the hopes that it'll help them get on the right track with a good job.
For my part, I volunteered with a friend to give workshops on how to use Macromedia Flash. I was kinda nervous and didn't know what to expect--I just had this stereotype of rough gangbanger teenagers. However, they were very polite and for the most part completely intent on learning. In addition, nearly ALL of them were very bright and picked up flash far quicker than I ever did!
Programs like the one in the posted article and the one I worked for here in Seattle are amazing opportunities to help people who just havent had the breaks in life, but have a ton to contribute. I would love to see them expanded.
-s
Bobcat Golthwaite's idea (Score:2)
Web developers turned gangbangers... (Score:2)
remember that guy in Office Space? (Score:3, Funny)
Since some of these guys are criminals anyway... (Score:2)
Seriously! It is not dissimilar to punishment to administer that crap and then people who know what they're doing won't have to touch it!
"Gang Bangers" (Score:2)
Great... we've got them to swap hustles... (Score:2)
Some clarifications (Score:5, Insightful)
Just wanted to clarify a few things. The students who go through the program are not simply taught how to launch Dreamweaver and click their way to a Web site. They go through about nine months of training ranging from HTML, to JavaScript, PHP, databases, data modeling, use cases, etc. We provide more skills to these students than most of my university peers seem to have! We are just starting to use Java to deal with some of our larger projects where PHP becomes a burden.
Think again if you're worried that this is just another basic class in WYSIWYG HTML editors... you are very wrong
Sssssh... don't tell my mom (Score:2)
So the lesson is... (Score:2)
Gotta hate the do-gooding fools... (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, I slowly learned the ropes, but I was still what one might call a "good kid". I didn't chew gum or talk or pass notes, instead I just tried my best to learn and not be a trouble maker. There were two girls who sat next to me, however, who were definitly not "good kids", at least by the elementary school rules of a decade or two ago. They were always laughing and talking and telling jokes, despite the teacher's constant warnings and threats to "put thier names in the book".
Anyway, this went on for a while, and eventually the teacher had a brilliant idea. She decided that for every day that these two girls did NOT talk, they would get a coupon. If they collected a certian number of coupons at the end of two weeks, they could have a pizza party with some of thier friends after school.
Now, for all of you thinking that this novel approach was the way to go, you are sadly mistaken. The next effect of this was that:
a) the girls didn't shift any more towards the "good" side, but instead found better ways of concealing themselves so that they could get the coupons.
and, most importantly, b) I learned that being "good" got you absolutely nothing at all. I was completely ignored bu this teacher. Being bad, however, gets you pizza. From that moment on I was an encouragable student...
If you are going to start giving perks away to those who are bad, you will only be teaching people that there is no reason to stay out of trouble. If you want to go around handing out web training, start with the people who DESERVE it first.
Re:A "decent paying job"? (Score:2)
Re:A "decent paying job"? (Score:2)
Oh, I'm sure they have (or perhaps had) good salaries. That's where that $10 trillion of capital [gold-eagle.com] went.
you just can't get away with being crap any more
Merely teaching everyone to clean up their HTML isn't going to bring that $10 trillion bubble back.
Re:requirements for the staff positions... (Score:2)
Re:If I may: What exaxtly is the point? (Score:2)
Fortunately, this issue has already been addressed. CmdrTaco has set up a special site that covers many social issues and current events, rather than those that're just "geek-compatible". The site format's substantially different, but it does do what you ask. The site is the Cmdrtaco News Network [cnn.com]. Cowboy Neal has also set up a site with additional material: More Stuff -- laeN yoBwoC [msnbc.com].
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:3, Insightful)
Would you rather your taxes were spent keeping these kids in prison?
Tom.
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
Yes! Why reward bad behavior in our society? It sends a incredibly bad message to children to reward bad behavior.
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
I for one would much rather that a convicted drug dealer did a smaller amount of time, got job training, and committed fewer crimes as a result of building a good life. I realize this doesn't satisfy the desire many people have for vengeance, but personally I'm more concerned with trying to reduce crime than making sure everyone gets their ass kicked as solidly as possible. I guess that makes me a bleeding heart.
And in any case I don't get the impression that good kids are excluded from such a program, just that bad kids aren't either.
-brennan
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
"Hey kids, go ahead and sell drugs, shoot at your rivals and operate in a criminal conspiracy because after you are all done, we will forgive you and train you for a career!" Um, no. What we need to be saying is, "Hey kids, if you go ahead and sell drugs, shoot at your rivals and operate in a criminal conspiracy, we will catch you, prosecute you, leave you to rot in jail for a few years and after you get out you will have no prospects for a decent life. So don't do it nor will we reward you for doing it!"
There is a big difference between "screwing up" and engaging in a criminal conspiracy that breeds fear in your neighbors.
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
If they haven't done something wrong (and do we still assume that someone's innocent until proven guilty?), why not help them get themselves out of their current crappy situation. That's what I'm saying when Iask if you'd rather see them in pison. Here we have a potential solution to kids being criminals, perhaps?
Tom.
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
Unlike you, I don't want to send the message of "Its ok to be in gang because we will bail you out when the going gets ruff." I want to send this message to kids, "Don't be a gang member or the rest of your life will be spent in self-imposed misery."
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
Somehow, I don't think sending messages to kids is something you're really well-educated about.
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
Frankly, I couldn't give a squat about excuses for their criminal behavior. It doesn't matter. What matters is that society is protected from their criminal behavior and making sure that behavior is not glorified to other children. To me, telling a kid that gang banging is a bad idea and will lead to a life of misery is an excellent message to send to children.
You might have had a point but your personal insults have made sure it was lost...
well... (Score:2)
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
And whoever moderated the grandparent (of this) post as "Troll" is going to get meta-moderated as "unfair".
Re:So, break laws and get free training (Score:2)
Have you read the article? No.
Have you an ounce of charity in your body? No.
Tom.
Re:um... (Score:2)
Gang Bang - sexual term.
Gang Banger - Active Gang Member.
Re:um... (Score:2)
Re:What websites have they created? (Score:2)
Marquette College Engineering Departmen [mu.edu]
Our site [hbiconsulting.com]
Brennan Center Searchable Bibliography [brennancenter.org]
Health Advocacy Center [healthadvocacycenter.org]
LeMond Bikes [lemondbikes.com]
Verizon Wireless [employeephone.com]
Comcast [employeeoffer.com]
Wisonsin Jesuits [jesuitswisprov.org]
ITL [mu.edu]
Verizon Wireless [employeephone.com]
NuEdge Systems [nuedgesystems.com]
Ralph Marlin [ralphmarlin.com]
Reemploy [reemploy.com]
Oh and you asked who would hire someone from that background:
So it is obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please research before you knock.
Oh and will you give me a list of your clients?
Re:What websites have they created? (Score:2)
It depends on just how much of their past an employer can know. If they haven't been convicted at the time they enter the program, then there's no record that they have to own up to. Granted there's a lot they may have done prior to getting into the program, but outside the street who knows? In any case, ex-cons who do have solid skills are able to land and keep jobs especially if they have good references from their trainers, and a placement program backing them. And that's what this program gives them: skills, experience, references.
In terms of this economy, what I've seen is that people with solid IT skills seem to be able to keep their jobs or find new ones. The first to feel the downturns are alwasys the people with few skills, and let's face it, a lot of the people swept in the tech boom had very questionable tech skills. Now, in terms of turning around once you've gone, evil, I'd like to ask the question: Are these kids really evil? A lot of people who come down hard on kids in gangs have never been in area that has gangs. In a lot of cases, the gang is the only real family that these kids have. Not to defend them, but gangs provide a lot of the support and mentoring that all kids are instinctively looking for. And that's a real serious problem because gangs are criminal and violent organizations. A kid who's got a good family and connections that lead him--or her--into legitimate social insitutions generally does not turn to the gang. These connections might be a network of friends, a church, or some other kind of outreach, but when they aren't there, a kid reaches out for what's around, or at least gets scooped up by it. So, is a kid evil for not having a better choice? I guess this all goes back to the old question of whether virtue is inherent or learned. If virtue is inherent, then good kids will not join gangs and will do okay no matter where they start life. If virtue is learned, then what do you expect when there is no institution to teach a kid virue? Seems to me that this is what Brother Holub is trying to do.
Re:What websites have they created? (Score:2, Insightful)
I call the use of cluster bombs evil.
Find out what happens to the unexploded ordinance. These weapons should never be used, and I'm ashamed my country (UK) is given tacit approval of the US's deploymenmt of them.
Tom.
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)
have to worry about a 2Pac wannabe having a PCP induced flashback and bustin' a cap in my ass!
I'd rather have an ex gang member in the next cube than pushing crack on the streets.
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)
I would prefer them in JAIL and not on the streets to make some NPR listener feel less guilty.
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)
I would prefer them in JAIL
Then you can pay for their upkeep and training in further criminal activity. Bravo!
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)
God, I just love jingoistic comments!
Sitting in jail is much cheaper than having them out on the streets causing death, property damage and theft. If it costs $30,000 a year to keep a thug in jail, its still a hell of a lot cheaper than loosing a human life. There is a huge benefit to society, financially, to keep thugs in jail. The longer the better.
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)
What about theft and property damage thats pretty thug like to me? Those are expensive activities to the victims. Petty theft is not so petty to the victim since a lot of their victims are the poor. Also, the $7,500 does not prevent them from commiting crimes, spending the $30,000 to surround with them with iron bars will.
It doesn't take a rocket scientists to know the difference between right and wrong. And its too bad that society acts like it does require that level of intelligence. There is no excuse for thuglike behavior nor should there be a reward.
Punishment works (Score:2, Informative)
Here are the facts on punishment and deterrence:
"Does Punishment Deter?"
http://www.ncpa.org/bg/bg148.html [ncpa.org]
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)
Rehabilitation would involve restitution for previous actions. None of these sort of programs require the individual to provide such an action. These program exist so rich people can tell other people at award shows and banquets that "They Care!". And isn't that the most important thing?
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)
Sitting in jail is much cheaper than them out on the streets causing death, property damage and theft. If it costs $30,000 a year to keep a thug in jail, its still a hell of a lot cheaper than loosing a human life. There is a huge benefit to society, financially, to keep thugs in jail.
Re:Thanks For Devaluing My Career! (Score:2)