French Government Online-Why Isn't the U.S.? 401
DullTrev asks: "Looks like the French are pushing forward once again with their online government plans. The BBC News site has this article about the new portal about to be launched. The article says the portal 'will give every citizen a personal internet portal allowing them to pay taxes online, register a child for a state school, or be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time'. The UK government has had this portal up for a while, and are steadily expanding their services. This is all within the EU government systems that are (not surprisingly) encouraging online government all over the place. How does this kind of thing compare to the US?"
Why not U.S.? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:1)
8 digits phone numbers in Brazil (Score:2)
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:2)
As for who runs it, a private company runs it. It's a service isn't it?
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's simply not true. The US has a smaller population than the EU (285M [census.gov] and 376M [www.scb.se]) and a proportionally smaller public sector (the EU tax burden is 41.5%, US 29% [umanitoba.ca]).
The real root of the matter is that the EU has far too many politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants, too much money, and too little idea or inclination to do anything other than expand their role.
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:2)
The real root of the matter is that the EU has far too many politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants, too much money, and too little idea or inclination to do anything other than expand their role.
The real root of the matter is that you don't know what you're talking about.
The EU is trying very hard to push freer markets (including diminishing the public service's wheight) down national government's throats. National governments and national populations are the real obstacle to massive deregulation (Britain being, unsurprisingly, an exception).
And, guess what ? We're pretty happy with that.
Thomas Miconi
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:2)
I'll believe that when I see CAP and the Social Chapter abolished.
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:5, Insightful)
About 4.5 times bigger, more precisely (60 million inhbts).
BTW, isn't this a reason why you kept the federal model instead of becoming a big nation-state ?
What I mean is this: this e-government stuff should really happen at the state level. France is famous for being an embodiment of the good old nation-state, but the federal nature of the United States of America seems to lend itself pretty well to e-government, state by state.
Think about it: of all the bureaucratic stuff you must deal with as an American, how much has to do with local institutions (state, county or city), and how much is related to the federal government ?
Actually this would make it much more manageable in the US than in France. The population of South Dakota is two full orders of magnitude lower than that of France, isn't it ? (It is; I checked)
Thomas Miconi,
French.
PS: BTW, this has nothing to do with a gigantic web-database. The French are extremely sensitive [www.cnil.fr] when it comes to data privacy. The idea is more about replacing the counter than the data storage itself.
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:2)
The rednecks win again. w00t.
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:2)
Brazil is same order of magnitude (Score:2)
I have filled my income tax returns on-line in the last four years now. This year I did all the paperwork on renovating my drivers license on-line (www.detran.rj.gov.br, asp and flash, the whole shit!), although I had to go to a flesh-and-bones doctor (randomly chosen by computer) for the examination. We have had nationwide elections using digital ballots since 1998. As a matter of fact, in 1998 I was randomly chosen as an inspector for the presidential elections, so I have a somewhat more deep knowledge than I would like of that system.
Re:Why not U.S.? (Score:2)
Re:Not *exactly* (Score:2)
Because each state basically takes care of itself, any attempt to automate basic services would result in MASSIVE duplication of effort. State laws (and governments) are different enough that even an off-the-shelf product for somthing simple (like driver's license and vehicle registration renewal) would require fairly extensive modifications to work in multiple jurisdictions, especially when you consider the need to interface with legacy systems. It gets even more complicated when you look at things like business licenses and public assistance, which are managed at the county/local level.
population and federalism (Score:2, Insightful)
Population of France: 50 million
And France has nothing like states' rights that the US has to cope with that makes us a patchwork of sometimes conflicting laws.
Re:population and federalism (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, we have. Corsica and Alsace (trn ?), (and some other regions i think) more or less have special laws/regulations on many aspects covered by that portal. So i really wonder how it will work. Especially, each French city/county/region has its own taxes (we are professionals at taxing), so i wonder how it will work in that big portal....
Slightly low population numbers (Score:2)
As for the population of France, the 1999 French Census came up with 60.185.831 people, which I'll round up to 61 million.
But, yes, point taken. The U.S. has about 4 times as many people as the French.
Re:population and federalism (Score:4, Interesting)
Hamilton and Marshall appear to have won out in practice. Federalism's benefit was that no state could unfairly create commerce problems with another state, but the downside is that the Federal government has far overreached it's bounds, largely thanks to Marshall.
quoting from the Smithsonian magazine:
Marshall and Jefferson were adversaries. Jefferson believed in states' rights -- that the colonies who ratified the constitution did so as sovereign states. He wanted the weakest federal government possible. Marshall knew that a federal government without the power to tax, to support a military and to regulate finance was a recipe for anarchy. For 34 years, in decision after decision, McCulloch v. Maryland, Gibbons v. Ogden, he built up the legal power of the Supreme Court and, with it, the power of the federal government. Jefferson and succeeding democratic Presidents were against everything Marshall did, but found themselves helpless before his legal expertise in reading the Constitution.
endquote.
States' Rights was pretty much dissolved by the Civil War, and only lately have there been good arguments for it, such as Oregon and their fight for the right to administer euthanasia.
Re:Bull5h!t (Score:2)
I got karma to burn, mod me down into oblivion if you want, but you(collectively) are still responsible for what's bad (as well as what's good) so don't start saying "yeah, but others have an easier time" and move your arse.
Alright, then I propose that the reason this hasn't been done is one of the following:
Yeah, I've got karma to burn too.
--Dan
why isn't the US? (Score:2, Informative)
One word : Privacy (Score:2)
Plus, I think the US is a little busy now with something more important than being online.
Re:One word : Privacy (Score:2, Interesting)
Just for the sake of remembrance, "open" records in Holland and other countries made easy pickins of the Jews and other "undesirables" during the Nazi occupation. The Dutch have, to their credit, proposed encryption of their public information. But it sounded like an escrow key thing, when I read about it. But thats still perhaps better than no protection of public information at all.
I guess it is mostly about sheer numbers, tho. As others have pointed out.
We already have this. (Score:2, Informative)
Advantages of a central system... (Score:4, Informative)
The US has the problem that there are many State and Federal agencies that would have to communicate and cooperate. They are about as likely to do this as Bill Gates is to write an SMP patch for the Linux kernel. European countries have a history of central management and of delination and communication between agencies. It is this infrastructure that enables these sorts of projects to be built.
The US is liable to get disparate information portals that provide for specific needs in a variety of ways. The odds however of someone who lives in CA and has a business in NY having a single portal for all of his needs is practically zero. One web company had this idea and failed miserably. The nature of the US goverment makes it hard to imagine this happening. Germany however with its Federal system and different history and social infrastructure is liable to do this.
The main reason for the US not getting there is the social infrastructure that actively encorages States to go their own way and buck the Washington line. This tends not to exist within the European countries as even beauracrats at the local level are considered under the same banner as those at the national level.
An EU wide portal is also a possibility as there is a history of inter-country cooperation on large scale projects (Concorde anyone) and there is that ethos of distributed and deliniated goverment in a manner that does not exist in the US.
Its more a social thing than a technology thing.
Re:Advantages of a central system... (Score:2, Interesting)
There are critical reasons why we have a system full of contentious factions (States vs. National, Legislative vs. Executive, etc.)
To grossly over-simplify, every time people are oppressed en masse, or murdered in huge numbers it is by a government under one banner. (And yes, I am acutely aware of the plank in our eye. A. Jackson was able to collect too much power to the Executive to genocidal results.)
Oh, and regarding your sig, we risk getting shot by carrying guns to stave off just this sort of thing, or don't you recall a couple little things called WWI and WWII? We don't get invaded much. (Which is clearly partially attributable to geography, but can you imagine invading a country with > 1 firearm per capita? (Which AFAIK means the US or Switzerland. Hmm, they don't get invaded much either . .
-Peter
Whooo there... (Score:2)
I know exactly why the US system is like it is, and that is exactly the reason that this sort of thing is a problem, this isn't indicative of what is "good" or "bad" but of why somethings can be done in some places but not in others. The US for instance was a natural place for something like the internet as there is more of a culture of autonomous nodes.
Goverments where people were oppressed by distributed goverment : US during slavery, Italy, Germany etc etc etc. Its always possible no matter what the system as long as you convince the majority across the whole country.
The quote is from a US book "To kill a Mockingbird" the US was last successfully invaded IIRC in 1812. The UK in 1066, Iceland god knows when and Spain for about the same period as the US IIRC. The ability of an individual with a gun to stop an army isn't very great. Looks like most of Afghanistan had guns... didn't matter much as they were politically divided.
Social factors are the main governing factor in the success of most projects and operations. The hardware is for large parts of it irrelevant.
Re:Whooo there... (Score:2)
And it seems that, but for us, you would have been invaded when Hitler was done bombing the dog-shit out of you. And, of course, most of the countries (again, except for Switzerland) surrounding Germany were invaded.
You seem to have named several aggressors in your litany of folks who haven't been invaded. Okay, so the Spanish haven't been invaded since, who, the Ottomans? But they have managed to wipe out a few cultures since then. The short list for the UK is what? Big hunks of Africa, India, assorted islands, and I would assign partial culpability for North America. (You can share with Jackson, right?) Hardly a who's who of being oppressed.
This may be an artifact of being educated in the UK (again, I am assuming), but you seem to forget that we considered England to be an oppressor in the late 1770's. You may want to minimize that, but our people (who I lovingly refer to as "my forefathers") were willing to fight an die to throw of the rule of the crown.
Let me take a step back. I don't have anything against Europeans in general or the British in particular. I've been to Europe (cleaning up one of you all's messes, and again, an armed minority beating the crap out of an unarmed majority) and I generally like the joint. And, hey, my heritage goes back to Europe.
Slavery was illegal in 50% of the US circa 1800, how about England? Oh, wait, who was in charge of the (future) US when slavery was established here? Seems like that was a problem that we inherited, not one that we created.
I think you miss the point that the national government didn't sponsor slavery but to an active effort to avoid the issue (which, as I said, was dumped on them, not created by them) until finally abolishing it, so your example is spurious.
Finally, on the matter of Afghanistan, I don't think that the "common man" is armed over there. After, what, three years of Taliban rule I think most of the guns are "off the streets." OTOH, they have large, highly factionalized militias, but that really isn't the same.
-Peter
Re:Whooo there... (Score:2)
Did you have any actual rational arguments to add to that, or was your intention just to make an ad hominem attack or two and do a bit of whining about people being unfair?
BTW, it is abundantly clear from history that centralized governments are a recipe for loss of civil liberties. That's where the hostility is coming from. With a small amount of knowledge about history it is hard not to read MosesJones' original post as "Be like us, trade your liberty for some cool gadgets!" Surely he didn't mean it that way, but I find that more upsetting, not less.
Notice that I haven't called you names (like braindead, or "freeper wannabe" (BTW, WTF is a "freeper" and what gives you the impression that I want to be one?)) anywhere in this post. Neither Kymermosst nor I called have called MosesJones names either. Perhaps you should re-evaluate who is coping a "confrontational attitude."
-Peter
Re:Whooo there... (Score:2)
It is not abundantly clear from history that centralised goverment = loss of civil liberties. Germany has always had a distributed system of goverment. The UK has always had a centralised system. The Soviet Union had central and regional goverment in a similar way to the US.
One system of goverment is not always better than another by definition, it is the reaction of people within that system that determines the worth of it. Pure Communism by the book has more liberties than pure capitalism. Odds on Pure Communism happening with humans... zero. If you had studied history of various different countries and political systems then this would be apparent.
By the way "do a bit of whining" is also being agressive.
Re:Whooo there... (Score:2)
WWI: Germany was under the rule of Kaiser (i.e. Emperor) Wilhelm II.
WWII: After the Reichstag burned and the German parliament handed total control to the executive Hitler became the equivalent of a military dictator. (See: War powers clause)
And don't tell me people are free in Germany. They can't own guns (unless they pay an elitism fee and keep them at a hunting club). They are conformant to "the rules" beyond common sense. I've been there. I went out with an (American) friend and his German girlfriend. We came to a crosswalk late at night. There was NO traffic (and we could see quite a way in each direction). It was PERFECTLY safe to cross, far safer than when it is busy but the light is with you. We litterally couldn't drag her across the street, then the light changed and everything was fine. I guess that's how it is living in a country where beat cops carry machine guns and have a license to beat people with impunity.
Don't get me wrong, I am aware that this is the direction that the US is headed in, but I'm not happy about it.
I have to beg to differ on the USSR point as well. AFAIK they had regional commissioners, meaning men commissioned to handle a region. That is, the power flowed in the opposite direction in the USSR vs. the USA.
Anyway, I guess it is hard to have a rational world view when you are a subject.
I'm with you 100% that Communism is the ideal system on paper, but works like crap in reality. But that doesn't support your point. Maybe systems work differently for different people (the Finns, for example, seem to be doing very well with socialism.) but I'm not concerned with that, I'm concerned with how absolute rulers behave, not their subjects.
I'll concede the point on STFU though, although I think you should now more than ever. OTOH, it's not my fault that he chose to attack me and whine rather than actually present any rational arguments.
-Peter
St. Paul Police .... (Score:2)
Consider: St. Paul.gov [stpaul.gov] where you can view this week's prostitution arrests in the city of St. Paul.
What more do you REALLY want from your government than a good laugh?
Do you not own a watch? Here's the Time [time.gov]? Obviously your government is looking after you, considering your every possible need.
As far as I'm concerned these guys need to waste less money on this crap when there are former-tax-payers starving in the streets right now.
Re:Advantages of a central system... (Score:2)
In the EU the countrys (for the most part) are looking to become one power.
The US is founded on each state being a seperate entity under a federal system.
Yes I know corporations are trying to put an end to this, and yes it pisses me off.
The next time we take up arms, it will be against corporations, and there boards. whom with then ply political pressure upon the government to bring force upon its people. This will be the first time martial law will have been established in the US. This will happen with in ten years.
Firstgov (Score:2, Informative)
A few months ago I got a virus infection and the doctor gave me some anti-biotics. Out of curiosity I went to the FDA website [fda.gov] and was surprised to learn that the drug companies can do some of things to certify their drugs online.
The US government also has an IP network physically separate for classified information. I have seen a lot of work get done over it.
UK site appears to work under Opera! (Score:2)
Admittedly, I haven't actually filled in the forms properly (tax return? No thanks! TV license? No thanks!), but it all looks pretty good.
Tom.
`Progress' in the UK (Score:4, Funny)
[capitaras.co.uk]
Check it out on their website: you couldn't make this up...
Not Well paid (Score:2)
£35247 - £50801 is not well paid for an IT Professional in central London, where a decent flat costs £150,000-£250,000. This is about right for 2+ years post grad experience, it's low for a deptartmental head.
Re:`Progress' in the UK (Score:2)
Trust me: that's a deliberate filter, to weed out anyone who can't be bothered to write a snailmail letter (or snaffle out a URL the way you did) in pursuit of this job. They want to be sure you're serious. Dealing with mountains of timewasting applicants is a *big* problem for all recruitment agencies: this is an easy way of cutting down the number of no-hopers.
Another Simple Answer (Score:2, Informative)
The federal government's purview does not cover the information that is of most relevance to the citizenry. The service that the federal government could provide would be limited to searching for information and paying taxes (which the majority of us don't do anyway because of the payroll deduction, but that's a separate discussion).
The utility of this service to the average citizen would be far less than the cost of developing it and maintaining it. This service is better left up to the states where the people live. Those states who want it can pay for the development and maintenance of their own portal, but we all shouldn't be forced to pay for something that would not benefit us.
England != UK (Score:3, Informative)
Re:England != UK (Score:2)
Blame Canada.
--Blair
"And you thought that was just a motto."
Why we're not online (Score:2, Insightful)
Car inspections, school registrations etc are not federal government functions.
Also I think civil liberties minded folks would be a little concerned about a centralized data base that had all this information in it. Besides the potential for official and unofficial abuse, you just know someone would come up with the idea to raise money by selling the database.
Internet Aceptance (Score:2, Interesting)
I suspect that France has a much higher percentage of citizens with real ISPs than the United States, so naturally this idea would fly beter over there.
Also, and I am generalising here, I think it's generally known that Europeans tend to be more liberal to new systems and technologies than North Americans.
I think it will be at least 2005 before something like this becomes the norm in the US. And then another 5 years to get people to trust it after it's hacked (because it would inevitably be overhyped, integrated with .NET and passport, and get out the door before it's ready.) [Please let's not let this discussion turn into an overblown anti MS rant...]
Re:Internet Aceptance (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Internet Aceptance (Score:2)
US Population: 285 million; France: 58 million (Score:3, Informative)
Dude! Have you ever tried to have a dinner party with six guests? Fairly easy, right? Try to put on the same dinner party with 28 guests. All you need to do is make more, right? It ain't quite that easy.
The United States is a big place.
InitZero
Re:US Population: 285 million; France: 58 million (Score:2, Insightful)
And that profusion of governmental entities in the US seems deliberate. In the US, limiting the power of government through disorder, confusion, and lack of integration is a way of life. The French believe in bureaucracy and at least superficial order and rationality. I can't really say which is "better", but it does explain some of the differences.
French local taxes also (Score:3, Informative)
Really does seem to work OK. One can only hope that one benefit will be to improve efficiency and result in lower taxes. However I somehow doubt it!!
The Editor should have read the submitter's post.. (Score:3, Informative)
Personally, I think the US Federal and most state webpages are pretty good tools for locating information. It is certainly a hell of alot easier than navigating a maze of phone numbers or finding someone that you know who already knows the information that you need.
The only thing that many government websites are missing are electronic forms. That lack has more to do with budgetary constraints than anything else though.
Security ... and the lack of experts at government (Score:4, Insightful)
He doesn't know that clicking on an e-mail attachment (that seems to come from secretary@dutchgovernment.nl) could let a trojan loose on his system, one that becomes active AFTER authentication with smartcard/iris scan, one that changes keystrokes but doesn't show that to the user.
Doing things like this is acceptable for companies, because they are profit based and take risks all the time. For governments, it is totally unacceptable that this is possible, but unfortunately they have spent literally millions of euro's on pilots and can't reverse the process. Somebody has to make clear to them that the internet + computers == not a secure infrastructure, but well ... is there anybody who will listen?
My apologies for my bad english, I'm Dutch.
How does this kind of thing compare to the US? (Score:2)
These are all addressed on a state level (Score:4, Informative)
Here in Massachusetts, we can already do most of the stuff you mentioned online. You can renew your driver's license, car registration, etc. online at the RMV's web site. You can also pay your state taxes online or by phone. People in the US can electronically file with the IRS, too.
We are a country based on decentralized government. Centralizing web services that should be run at a state level just doesn't make sense.
Cyprus government is online too...kind of. (Score:2, Interesting)
It is even in three languages English, Greek and Turkish, and works in Opera for Linux. So, I would say it's pretty cool.
US looking to implement separate gov't network (Score:2)
Re:US looking to implement separate gov't network (Score:3, Informative)
They've had these for a while.
Didn't anybody here see Startup.com? (Score:2)
Linux support (Score:2, Interesting)
I've seen a lot of excuses (Score:2)
The point is, the more information you need to process, the more efficient you need to be, to do as good a job.
The US Govt used to have -some- computer systems. But a certain President Bush got rid o his e-mail account. Anyone know who that idiot could be?
The banks in America seem to handle online transfers. There are plenty of companies which do online checking. The weather information centers can handle an entire continent of meteorological data, online. Volume ain't the issue, guys! GWB's hatred of the digital is.
Re:I've seen a lot of excuses (Score:2)
If that's success, give me failure! There's less risk of destroying civilisation in the process.
We do have stuff online (Score:2)
http://www.state.pa.us/
The way they do some of their fill out forms is absolutely retarded though (activex???? java??? For a FORM???)
Polish Gov is M$ only, Mac and Linux barred (Score:2, Interesting)
With Asscroft and Bushleague in control and on the MS payroll, you know what will happen here.
*Apple Poland fought to have the software ported to other platforms but lost.
Can't really do this in U.S. (Score:2)
We just don't have the same structure as the Europeans to have a one-stop-shopping comprehensive service portal.
If the Constitution were being more closely followed these days, the on-line services of the federal government would actually be almost nothing.
Re:Can't really do this in U.S. (Score:2)
I think you misunderstood, I meant "Europeans" as each of the countries in Europe being able to put their services on the Internet for their own people. Not one big European program with countries on the level of U.S. states.
Yes, Germany is a federal republic, and they have states and "counties." But much of the information is so well integrated that web services shouldn't be a problem.
About the only big difference I've seen in states in Germany is that Bavaria seems to stand out from the rest quite a bit, and when the Greens get powerful in a state, things get strange for a while. However, the difference between Bavaria and Hessen is a lot less than, say, the difference between California and Mississippi.
Just an idea... (Score:4, Flamebait)
I have an idea. It's just a little thought. Please don't mod me down as a troll. Here goes... Perhaps, just maybe, the UK and French governments are more on-line than the US government because, (deep breath), they are better organised than the US government. There, I've said it. I'm probably going to burn in hell now.
I think Americans often confuse their country's size with superiority. Yes, America is very big, but let's imagine for a moment that it was much smaller, say a fifth of the size, with a population of say, 50 million. Do you think it would be that 'superior' globally if that were the case? Would it have the most Nobel prize winners? (that would be the UK I think) Would it have the highest earning potential per capita? (That would be Switzerland) Would it have the freest citizens? (Probably Denmark). Would it have the highest standard of living? (Norway, according to the UN). Sorry, but I think the answers to these questions are no, no, no and no. America is a very big country, yep. But don't confuse that with an innate superiority.
Re:Just an idea... (Score:2)
The point of my email was not to say "my county is better than yours". In fact, my point was exactly the opposite. Many Americans do seem to believe that America is the greatest country in the world, and that the American people are in some way superior. Many people in Europe find that kind of sentiment ugly, and not a little dangerous.
So, no, I don't think we're better than you. I wish that you wouldn't persist in your belief that you're better than us.
Re:Just an idea... (Score:2)
As an American, I feel America is probably the best country in the world for me. Many Americans feel America is the best country for them, but somewhat naively assume this means its better for everyone. I think it is the naivite that is dangerous, not an understandable affection for a country that works well for you. I shouldn't have to state that kind of parochial sense of superiority isn't limited to this side of the pond. Many Europeans, even the intelligentsia, don't really understand Amercians very well, and tend to take a simplistic view of the role America plays internationally.
Present company excepted, of course.
Re:Just an idea... (Score:2)
Re:Just an idea... (Score:2)
Funny!!
If you don't understand why it's funny, ask a non-American friend to explain.
A few reasons... (Score:5, Interesting)
- They were **THE** pionneers in instituting an online society.
- They're not anglo-saxons.
- De Gaulle did not like using a phone.
- They're catholics
- French culture values intellectual achievement
- The education system does not make specialists, but generalists.
- France values education and culture.
French is not only about perfumes and good food, it's also about technology, science, research and, most importantly, FREE EDUCATION.More than 20 years ago [www.ust.hk], they decided to implement the fabled Minitel [minitel.fr] in order to eliminate paper telephone directories.
So the french don't have that innate distrust of the State. Thus, they not only do not continually question what the State does, but they don't view working for the State as something demeaning, so the best minds are naturally attracted to work for the State so everyone benefits.
He himself took maybe three phone calls a year, and made perhaps only one (on a good year) phone call on the same year (he didn't have a phone on his desk). Therefore, telephone infrastructure lagged sorely behind most countries (and was the butt of cruel jokes, like Fernand Raynaud [google.com]'s fabled: "Hello New-York, gimme the 22 at Asnières [amazon.fr]", which is said to have humiliated french telephone network engineers more than anything else. So, upon De Gaulle's resignation, the authorities embarked into a record-breaking research program to enhance the french phone network.
The retarded phone network was a blessing in disguise, because in most cases, switches simply bypassed mechanical switching and they went from manual operators straight to digital packet-switching.
This gave France a head-start in digital communications, which enabled them to quickly implement the Minitel network.
The french didn't have much choice but either to listen to the priests or to dump them, which is what they've been doing en masse for the last 200 years or so. (By contrast, a protestant can either find a sect that tells him what he likes, or simply make-up one of his own)
Republican ideals naturally spurns religion as something which enslaves humanity, so the State is quite rigorously insulated from the church. Official education is strictly non-religious (law forbids teaching religion in public schools), so therefore, the french put much virtue in Science (and the fabled cartesian spirit also helps). So it is quite normal that the french will rigorously embrace new technology without having any philosophical qualms about it.
And it does so far more than financial success (you just can't get rid of the the old scatholic foundations...), so plenty of people are drawn into scientific studies. Scientists enjoy recognition and are respected. So, naturally, luddites do not really get listened to...
This enables a great penetration of advanced technological ideas throughout society.
French scientists have a shallower knowledge that spans far more areas of interests, so they are more able to connect seemingly disconnected technologies together.
A most successful and innovative american company has fully understood this idea. Researchers working for the Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing company [3m.com] are forced NOT to spend 10 to 15% of their research budget on their primary research area. But they are quite free to spend it investigating side-effects discovered through their research. That's why they have so much innovative products.
Since then, it is only natural that education is freely available to anyone. The cream of the crop is also enrolled in the grandes écoles where they are given the best education for free, for which they then serve the State as the fabled highly-competent senior bureaucrates.
Re:A few reasons... (Score:2)
Haha. Does this name worry anyone? It sounds very NewSpeak, and the fact the agency is designed to eliminate (telephone) books is even more 1984ish. What next? Minitrue? Minipax?
Re:A few reasons... (Score:3, Informative)
You seem to have neglected something here, though. I don't live in the United State of America. While in France the question of working for the state may be binary, potential government employes have to ask themselves whether they want to work for their state or federal government. And they are both mutually exclusive.
"They're catholics"
And we're not? This particular argument only holds true if any enclaves of American Catholics are weak and dispersed at best. However, I was born and raised in Maryland (a state founded by Catholics and still has a strong Catholic history... Note that the state flag isn't properly flown without a stylized cross atop the flagpole) and I currently live in Louisiana (another state with a strong Catholic history due to their French history), yet neither of these states have become a France in miniature, before or after embracing their Constitution-mandated republican governments. As for the embrace of technology of these two states, they couldn't be more different despite their shared religious history.
At any rate, it's interesting to note that while us mere English-speaking nations have an innate distrust of state, the French seem to have ended up with an innate distrust of religion. I'm curious now about which one is "more better."
Re:A few reasons... (Score:2)
Piss off the Catholic voting blocks in the Northeast, and you'll soon be out of office.
Re:A few reasons... (Score:2, Funny)
Paris (SatireWire.com) -- Angered over reports that California's economy has surpassed that of France, dozens of French labor unions staged a massive, nationwide strike Friday, demanding the government investigate possible causes of the country's low per capita productivity.
"French workers should be the most productive in the world, and we will strike until the government can discover why we are not," said Rene L'ampoule, a spokesman for truck drivers who blocked most of the nation's major roadways.
According to the report, compiled by the Los Angeles Economic Development Corp., California's gross domestic product was $1.33 trillion last year, compared to France's $1.28 trillion. With 61 million inhabitants, France's population is nearly twice that of California, making the nation's per capita production half that of the U.S. state.
In the country's fifteenth nationwide strike this year, protesting miners, farmers, students, truckers, mechanics, teachers, engineers, entertainers, programmers, police officers, firefighters, and journalists, as well as factory, airline, rail, livery, clerical, and prison workers, said it was the government's responsibility to investigate. Government employees, meanwhile, said they would join the strike in sympathy.
The French are NOT more online. (Score:2, Informative)
The French are not more online. My girlfriend just went through hell trying to pay her French taxes "online" and the French government did a fine job of "losing" her payment, forcing her to send a paper payment later causing them to label her account as "delinquent".
As a matter of fact, we spent the first part of this year trying to get the right tax forms from the French government. We looked online and they only had forms that were two years old online. The site hadn't been updated since 1999. That doesn't seem more online to me. (Hell, they're barely offline, either -- the local office didn't have the damn forms either.)
In the US, we can go online and get all sorts of information -- including the proper tax forms for the year. Sure, it's not all nicely packaged in one happy Big Brother box, but it's there. Heck, even the INS has its forms online.
So, don't go touting the French thing as some amazing online revolution, because it's sure not to live up to all the promises.
Re:A few reasons... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A few reasons... (Score:2, Insightful)
2- There seems to be a consistent thread of anti-religious bias coming from French posts. It appears there is an active antagonism being taught by the French school system equating religion to ignorance. I would urge those who have been indoctrinated in this way to throw their own blinders off. Religious belief is not necessarily an impediment to rational thought, education, or enlightenment. The comment that "Republican ideals naturally spurns religion as something which enslaves humanity" smacks more of a Communist tract or the Reign of Terror than anything truly Republican.
3- The American university system rewards individual achivement as much as any in the world. Scholarships are available from every institution and the cream of the crop are recruited heavily to the top schools- which aren't generally state sponsored schools by the way. If you're good enough you'll not pay a dime and likely have a stipend as well. Yes, being a capitalistic society a space is made for big donors- but those big donors make available thousands of scholarships available to the best and the brightest.
4- Considering the constraints placed upon us by our relatively light population density, I would say that America gets more bang for the taxpayer dollar for government services than any country excepting Australia (which is largely funded by taxing its natural resources). Our infrastructure is highly dependend upon the policies of the local state and municipalities. Many American cities have services that can favorably compare with any European city.
Many non-americans are as myopic about us as we are about them. Those of us from either group who have lived in both America and internationally tend to have a balanced view of the whole thing. America *as a whole* and *considering its unique geography and demographic challenges* has created an unmatched and dynamic society that is the most technologically advanced, economically powerful, and politically responsive in the world. Many other countries can match or pass us in individual categories, especially those with monocultures. I really, really wish that many Europeans would be happy with their own successes and strengths and not need to demean America to make themselves feel superior, it gets old, quick. Yes many American yahoos get their jollies by baiting internationals, but please don't make it so easy on them.
Re:A few reasons... (Score:2)
A technical drag, yes (it uses 20 year-old technology. Just try displaying a GIF file on a Minitel!!!). But certainly not a social drag. Quite the opposite, in fact. The french have got a 20 year headstart with the notion of John Q. Public interacting with a computer network to get information or to make transactions.
The first thing that religion does is brainwash it's proponents into believing that they are free because of religion. It is no use then to demonstrate to religious bigots that they aren't free because of the religion because they have been brainwashed into believing otherwise.
Religion feeds on the morally weak; somebody who is well educated in the ways of the world is far less likely to fall prey to the priests than somebody who has no education at all.
Finally, all religion does is maintain a caste of useless individuals who live off what they can sucker from their parishioners. Worse, those suckerers attain quite an unwarranted position of influence upon the citizens, and are therefore a dangerous impediment to the true, free exercice of Democracy.
Those scholarships are only attainable through a level of work that is quite unattainable by many of those people who would seamlessly go through the french State-financed system, or those who have rich daddies for that matter. And there is the matter of the public school system which is unable to provide the motivation needed of brighter students to seek further education.
By contrast, in France, schoolkids are sensitivized quite early into the possibility in pursuing higher education.
Given the fact that the americans do not get State-paid medical services, and that their system costs the same per capita as the canadian socialist medical system, yet only insures 40% of the population, this statement above must be the biggest joke since Groucho Marx said to a woman who had nine children adter she said that she loves her husband very-much " Lady, I love my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while!!! "...
Many americans are quite myopic about themselves. America *as a whole* has created quite a lopsided society where many people are left behind and have to resort to crime just to survive, thanks to the absence of social services that provide public security to the whole population of other countries. As of political responsiveness, catering to big croporation whims by implementing totally assinine foreign policies (by propping dictators, for example) is not really a good way of being "politically responsive". Rather more like "politically reactive".
Re:A few reasons... (Score:2)
Does it also brainwash them into learning how to spell properly?
whitehouse.gov an early site (Score:2)
But as web sites must re-invent themselves every other year to stay on the tech forefront, the US effort may have stalled, allowing late-comers like France.gov to take the lead.
I can do these things and I live in the USA (Score:2)
1. Filed my federal, state, and local taxes
2. Registered my car
3. Paid the bill for my water and trash (city provides these services)
4. Complained about a fallen tree over in the park next to my house.
5. Checked my property tax account balance.
6. My wife applied for college and registered for classes.
I did all of this online. Never spoke to anyone on the telephone or visited an office. I live in Ohio.
I think most people don't realize how much of this stuff is already there or else they are waiting for it to become "free."
The fact is that a national government portal would be helpful only for things that the national government does. I already have a city portal and a state portal and they are quite useful. The private sector fills in the gaps nicely (bill payment)
Because Voters Don't Care (Score:2, Insightful)
The Fact is that the majority of voters in the US don't care about the government being online. Congress doesn't push for online government because %90 of the voters don't care. Corporations on the other hand with their lobbyists, have pushed the IRS online. If you paid taxes like the corporations do, you would want it to be as efficient as possible so you wouldn't have to pay as many accountants.
Again its not size or complexity, its an issue of who wants it to be done. Remember American Slashdotters, you are a minority if you do everything online. Just because you do it online doesn't mean the rest of America does.
Personal experience (Score:2)
It would be really nice if you could do DMV stuff online but I don't see how they're going to get it done at this pace.
wait a sec ... (Score:2, Funny)
I thought the general trend in the US Government was to take away information...
We woulden't want those pesky terrorists reading our laws now ...
EU report on "connected" governments (Score:3, Informative)
The top 10 are :
1. Ireland
2. Norway
3. Finland
4. Sweden
5. Denmark
6. Spain
7. Britain
8. Portugal
9. France
10. Austria
It's call a federal system... (Score:3, Informative)
That's federal(or state or local), it's alittle annoying, but we can do it here(at least federal and some states).
register a child for a state school,
School Boards are run locally, so each has their own, not all that surprising considering the schools are at variable levels of technology
or be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time'
This is usually done on a state level.
So they cite three different activities and we as a nation handle them on three different governmental structure, we don't have the over arching Federal Govt that gets into local matters.(well within reason) So it's not surprising we don't have the same level here, even with greater population, we split the power up between the government levels.
State e-gov't already exists (Score:2, Insightful)
You can also pay your federal income taxes online and that's really the only time US citizens deal with the federal gov't (at least that's all I've ever done with the federal gov't). Maybe you need to open your eyes and ears a bit before asking why the US gov't isn't "online."
You want to know why not the US? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of the things mentioned that this French government site can do are either things shared between the state and the feds, or just aren't mentioned in the Constitution and rest solely with the state. For example:
"pay taxes online"
If I recall correctly, you can pretty much do that already with your federal income taxes already through the IRS website, but it isn't the job of the IRS to collect state income taxes, or any other taxes levied by the state. Talk to your comptroller, or at the very least go to the website of your state government. For me, I'd have to find the Louisiana website for information on paying Louisiana income and property taxes.
"register a child for a state school"
Beyond those offered by the military for their dependants and the five federal academies, I don't think there is such a thing as a federal school. Elementary and high schools are usually the responsibility of the local government (county or city), while they only have to answer to state guidelines and standards. If you want to register your kid to attend local schools, talk to the local school board. They're at your county seat, not at Washington D.C.
"reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time"
For commercial vehicles, while there are federal rules and regulations for your vehicle, it is up to the state to enforce them. As for personal vehicles, my title, registration and license plate are from the State of Louisiana, and the brake tag I got from St. Charles Parish. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have to deal with a city almost a thousand miles away for something as simple as my car. And if neither of those two governments provide what you're looking for, the only think you might be justified in complaining to the US Congress about is that they haven't set aside any money for state and local governments to set up such services.
So why can't we interact with the US federal government in the same way? At least 90% of the interactions your average citizen has with the federal government are with either the IRS or the USPS. Both of these organizations have very well-done, informative and useful websites. For anything else I suggest you check with your state website and/or see if your local government maintains a website.
The US is working on this (Score:4, Funny)
I am involved now in a project that I think responds directly to the issue raised by the post.
The project is to create a portal to every company that contributed to financing the campaign of a representative.
The portal will centralize all information needed to ascertain that paid representatives are performing their fiduciary duties to the people who invested hard earned money in their campaigns.
The portal will have forms for donation as well as RFLs ( Request for Legislation ). And we are now devising a method to integrate issues of tax relief and lifting regulation. One idea is to have a law that correlates the amount of tax to the ammount of regulation. But this is all still on the drawing board.
The project is financed from a special tax deduction "for streamlining the interaction between business and government".
We have it. (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.state.ak.us/
I don't want government to be easy to use... (Score:2, Insightful)
good govt websites (Score:2)
Part of the problem is that the US (Federal) Government does not have an all-inclusive internet plan. Not all of the websites look or work the same. They are not laid out the same. They do not all use the same hardware or software. Neither should they be: the SEC has *far* different operating requirements than the CIA, NSA or FBI. Also, as has been mentioned, most of the 'US government' (i.e. all governments, not just federal) is NOT the Federal government, but state and local governments.
simple explanation.... (Score:3, Funny)
2) All dealings with the IRS are a huge gamble
Hence, paying your taxes online would be considered gambling, and we all know how the US doesnt like to contradict itself.
most "wired"? (Score:2)
There's the problem with percentages...
Decentralization (Score:2)
In the US, most of the real action happens on the city, county and state levels. So the problem becomes one of ability and funding. For example, I live in Boise, Idaho, a reasonably tech-savvy oasis in the Intermountain West, and while I think that the local governments would love to have more of an Internet presence than they do, they also have to deal with the fact that there are other projects to fund.
The Internet is cool and a lot of people use it, but on the local level dollars are hard to come by and most local governments are going to look a lot harder at repairing the roads and fixing the school's roof than they are at enabling online payment of property taxes.
The Internet isn't as ubiquitous as many of us think, and until it is, I don't think that we'll see it used with the sort of universality that the telephone or the Postal Service is used.
But I'm sure it'll happen someday...
-h-
Re:Canada's doing the same. (Score:5, Informative)
It's a ptetty big initiative, but they are making a lot of progress. It's looking like every taxpayer is going to have a government issue PKI key.
Re:France is Quasi-Socialist (Score:2, Informative)
Re:France is Quasi-Socialist (Score:3, Interesting)
That would Grand Frère. And it is not seen as something good.
In France, there is less distrust in (and more reliance upon) the government. Yes. But there is less reliance upon (and more distrust in) private corporations.
That sounds communist for the average troll, but you should keep in mind some basic things.
In the French vision, the government is made by the people, for the people, and takes its decision in the better interest of the people.
When a government fails, it is disposed, violently if needs be (everyone have heard, at least, of the French Revolution ?). We're actually in our 5th republic, and the topic of a 6th one comes regularly.
But, in the French vision of how things are, a private corporation is made by people who don't give a fuck about other people, wildlife, public health, employment rate, or anything; except the money they earn.
Because earning money is the definition and meaning of life of a private corporation, not ethics, civil rights, or any other things like that.
People in the US is suspicious of big government databases. People in France is suspicious about big corporate databases. And, actually, I havn't heard of things like the CNIL (Commission Nationale Informatique et Liberté) who watch and prevents privacy abuses from government and pricate organizations alike.
Reading Slashdot, I often get the feeling that people from the US sees governments as a necessary evil, trying to oppress and spy upon the citizens, whereas pricate corporations are utopian-minded selfless organizations promoting freedom, civil rights, respect for life, human rights, and environment.
Although it would be naive to say I believe in the reverse, I sure trust less corporations than government. At least, the government is legitimized in its position by the constitution, and has clear duties it needs to respect.
Re:France is Quasi-Socialist (Score:2)
Les rosbifs ont évolué sur une petite île très pauvre, sous une monarchie importée (pour la plupart) de France (bref, l'Angleterre est une colonie française qui a mal tourné)
(But I'm going to redo that in english, so more people can understand it)
So,
The americans are the direct offspring of the english, minus the queen.
The english have evolved on a small, poor island, under a monarchy (mostly) imported from France (in brief, England is a french colony that turned bad)... Very soon, when their natural ressources were depleted, they were forced to seek fortune overseas, hence the strong maritime and merchant traditions.
Starting with the Magna Carta of 1215 (where corrupt barons took advantage of a weak king), people gradually got the notion that they were more important than the state.
With the Industrial revolution, the rise of the power of the bourgeois, coupled with the notion that they, somehow, were "better" than the State yielded the then omnipresent sentiment that the State is bad and should be suspected.
It, however, did not apply to the bourgeois, hence the quasi-revered status of rich people, and the lack of suspicion given to overly powerful companies.
Since the fall of Communism, bourgeois arrogance (embodying their belief of their own superiority - after all, they "won" the cold war) has risen significantly, to the point of subverting national governments and suckering them into abdicating their sovereignty to unelected and unaccountable "international" bodies that solely sucker to big croporations.
Re:Remember this, though (Score:2)
Actually, it wasn't the French gov't, but 3 french association (one jewish and two antiracism association IIRC, but maybe 2 jew and 1 antiracism).
That ain't because it comes from France that it has been made by the French government, you know. We're less communist than the professional trollers think.
Re:France as an ideal to follow???? (Score:2)
As the headline says:
Re:Off-Topic - UK Government portal (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, the charter of the BBC is such that it is independant of the government - the government cannot influence its output. It is more of a publicly owned body than a state controlled service.
People in the UK (mostly) love the BBC, even those on the right politically. (They complain about it, but then they complian about everying). Even Thatcher was afraid to privatize it because she knew there would be outrage.
Re:French government online (Score:2)