Which of the Armed Forces is Better for IT-Types? 45
tang asks: "As a Computer Science major who will be graduating this year, I wanted to know the experiences of any slasdotters who have been/are in the military. I'm exploring my options after college, and wouldn't mind serving my country. The question is, which branch of the armed forces? Physical shape is no problem, I just wanted to know which branch would have the most use for a computer programmer. The army seems to have only slightly interesting computer positions, while the navy has some better ones. Will any particular branch give me better training for when I get out?" We've already argued the point of whether it's better to go to college or sign-up, so if one had their heart set on joining, which service is better if you are planning on a career in IT, afterwards?
IT Military Network (Score:1)
You can sign up and fix their computers every other week...
Navy is the way to go (Score:4, Informative)
While I was in the Air Force and liked many things about the experience (I think that they are the least obnoxiously uptight of the services) what little of the Navy IT system impressed me. I know everyone is going to point out the NT-on-a-ship thing but that story is mostly bogus anyway.
Anyway, what little I had to deal with Navy-built systems I found several examples of them being better designed (from an IT perspective) than our own Air Force stuff. My experience with the AF IT system as an ADPE manager was pretty horrible. The people I met weren't very bright or well trained, constantly understaffed (they only had 12 people, including networking, server, desktop and manager people trying vainly to support over 1500 desktop systems all over base) and had very poor tools (who's bright idea was basing the entire IT infrastructure on MS Outlook and NT (even for secure messaging) anyway!?!!!). The worst part was that they were completely incapable of supporting desktop Windows users, they didn't even have a helpdesk, and everyone had to fend for themselves (including software and hardware purchasing.) Unless things have changed you would find the constant disaster very frustrating.
Oh, and I know everyone already told you this but Don't Trust Recruiters. When they aren't lying to you because they honestly don't know something they are lying to hide the ugly truth. If they tell you that they can't get your name into a slot for a certain job, implore you to select "Open/General" as a carreer and hope for the best don't sign! Get it in writing that your name is in a slot for the job you want before you sign a commitment. Don't cry too hard if the slot closes after you sign, shit happens, but at least they should try. Unfortunately the military isn't going to have you sitting on your butt waiting for annother slot to open up so you will probably be reclassed into something that they need at the time.
Re:Navy is the way to go -- NOT! (Score:3, Insightful)
The branch you select depends on what you are looking for: job training & experience that's usable in civilian life, college money, quick promotion, quality of life & working conditions, or adventure.
If you are after the adventure factor, the Marines have the market on macho bullshit pretty well wrapped up. The Marines' reputation speaks for itself. Remember that the USMC's philosophy is that a Marine is a Rifleman first, and a $WHATEVER second, and plan accordingly -- don't be suprised if you spend more time doing grunt work and PT than you spend doing your nominal job. Probably not the best choice if you value physical comfort or independent thought. From an IT perspective, the USMC is probably the worst choice you can make.
The Navy likes to bill itself as high-tech, and while they do have pretty good training for basic electronics, general IT training (that would be applicable to a civilian job) is marginal at best. Quality of life and working conditions are the worst of any of the branches, however, particuarly if you are single and enlisted. Promotions can be pretty rapid if you stay out of trouble and are reasonably smart; the people you are competing against are (ahem) generally not of the highest calibre. Based on my personal observations (I did several TDY's to Navy facilities) and the experiences of family members who served in the USN, I would have to say that you should avoid the Navy like the plague.
The Army is the biggest branch, and probably has the most choices, career wise. Living & working conditions are (on average) a bit better than the Navy, but not nearly as good as the Air Force. They can give the Marines a pretty good run for the money in the Macho Military Bullshit department when they put their minds to it, but this is minimized if you are in a non-combatant job. Army IT is generally pretty close to what you'd find in the corporate sector, except the users are dumber and will usually outrank you.
The Air Force is probably the best choice from an IT perspective. The working and living conditions are the best of any of the branches, and the Macho Military Bullshit is barely noticable once you are out of training. The downside is that it's harder to make rank than any of the other services. IMHO, the USAF is the best choice if you want to prepare yourself for an IT career in the corporate world. (It's a pretty good choice if you are planning on a military career -- they are more family-friendly than any of the other branches). My experience was exactly the opposite of the parent poster's: I too had to work on some Navy systems and I found them far worse than ours. The people I worked with were generally top-notch. (although I was in a software development shop, not lan & desktop support)
Definately heed the advice in the parent post: DO NOT TRUST RECRUITERS. They have a quota to fill, and they could care less what happens to you once you sign up. Enlisting with "Open/General" as your job choice is like putting a "kick me" sign on your back. However, at least in the Air Force, if you have good ASVAB and EDPT scores you have a very good chance of getting an IT job. The EDPT -- electronic data processing test -- is (or at least was in '89) the test you must take to qualify for any computer-related job. The higher your score on that test, the more likely it is you'll get an IT job -- they have a very hard time finding enough people who can pass the test to fill all the available slots. The EDPE doesn't test any technical computer knowledge -- it's actually an IQ test (identifying patterns, sequences, etc). To prepare, do tests like the Mensa Workout [mensa.org].
Nice Summary, but what about... (Score:2)
In particular, how to choose between the Guard and Reserve. I've heard Guard recruiters claim you're less likely to be sent overseas, but I'm sceptical.
Re:Navy is the way to go -- NOT! (Score:2)
Eh, you're probably right. For the first couple of years of my enslistment I was working out of an Army base in Germany and that sucked. This was circa 1997 and we were still using Unisys i386 machines (souped up!) for the management's desktops. Unisys made a great machine, built like a tank and very expandable but it was still a 386-25 (running Win95, eek!). My next assignment was to a real Air Force Base but the IT shop was as I described, understaffed and clueless, spending all their time trying to piss out 4 alarm fires. It was total chaos. We used some Navy products in our job and they were pretty spiffy, we definately preferred them to our AF equivilants. Maybe I just have a "pasture is greener" syndrome 8^)
Re:None. (Score:1)
Thank you to draw it to my attention. I did not know it mattered much. I also noticed I have also been modded down only once. Precisely in the comment that triggered your answer. So in average people don't care much about what I write or don;t find it particularly insightful or dumb. Good enough for me.
Inadequate? No. And you, do you feel inadequate?
NSA (Score:2)
Whilst we might consider the spook's as the [enemy]
Re:NSA (Score:1)
Air Force or Navy (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't speak for how things are today, but I know several good IT/IS guys that came out of the Air Force with decent training (and in one case a Master's degree in Math that he earned while in the Air Force). Like someone else said, it's the "least demanding" of the services, if you care about that sort of thing.
If I had to pick between Navy and Air Force, I'd consider my lifestyle. In the Navy there is a decent chance you'll get assigned to a ship at some point. If you're single, that can be somewhat cool. Go see the world, one port at a time. If you've got a family, in the Air Force you're going to get to come home almost every night to your wife & kids. You might be living in base housing in a foreign country, but at least you'll see them.
If you do this, be very careful with the recruiter(s). They will verbally assure you that you'll go into the MOS you want, then you'll get assigned to some crap that isn't useful out in the civilian world. I know a power generation guy and a communications tech trying to get MCSE certifications so they can get a civilian job. Get everything in writing.
Re:Air Force or Navy (Score:3, Interesting)
I just got out of the military (AF) a little over a year ago. I still work as a DoD contractor at the base I was stationed at for the four years I was in.
Prior to coming in the hardest decision to make was between which branch. It narrowed down rather quickly to either Navy or AirForce. They both have decent tech jobs, but it was mostly an issue of lifestyle.
Both my mother (6 years) and father (22 years)were in the AirForce so I was leaning on going towards Navy for a change of pace. He had served as a recruiter for a couple of years so I had the added advantage of taking him with me when I met with the recruiters so I wouldn't get stuck in some non-useful AFSC (Air Force Specialty Code).
The best advice you will hear over and over again is "get everything in writing". Remember it, but also read everything before you sign it and remember everything is waiverable. Two other little pieces of advice that helped a lot.
Do not just take the word of the recruiter or any one else. Things can be changed with a waiver and you are not committed to anything until you sign, so read it. It is nearly impossible to get something changed once you sign it. After you sign up you become government property (don't get a sun burn
My experience was a good one. It could have been a lot better; however, it could have been a lot worse.
Re:Air Force or Navy (Score:2)
I still work as a DoD contractor at the base I was stationed at for the four years I was in.
That's something I forgot to mention. I've known several people that went back to work as techie civilian contractors for the Air Force, but none for other services. I'm sure there are civilian contractors in every branch, but all the ones I've known were Air Force. I even know one guy that got started in the IT/IS consulting business with contacts he made while in the Air Force.
Re:Air Force or Navy (Score:1)
There are people from all branches of service who get out and do DoD contracting, however, I would have to say the majority of them are AF. For instance even at the Joint National Integration Center some of the people working on contracts for other services were prior AF.
Also a quick note on making contacts. It is quite easy in the Air Force with a techie type job because you are usually stationed in one area for a long duration so you get to meet many people, however, that would be one of the downsides of it is that you don't move around or change jobs much. Which is on occassion why people join the armed forces..."see the world and meet new and interesting people" (and then kill them
Re:Air Force or Navy (Score:2)
It's not all that unusual for the Navy either. I know more than a few guys that walked out the door in uniform and walked back in civilian clothes working a contractor.
any of the above, and none at all (Score:2, Informative)
note tha if you're going to be an enlisted person, that CS degree won't do anything but look good on the wall, at least to start with. you might ask the recruiters about commissioning opportunities.
another possible option you might consider is the reserve / national guard. being a part timer would allow you to get a foothold as a civilian IT person, plus get some good training and benefits as a military person. later on, if you decide you prefer the military, you can always switch over to active duty status. talk to a guard or reserve recruiter.
good luck, whatever you decide.
Re:any of the above, and none at all (Score:2)
Of course, if you're interested in employment through Uncle Sam, the Federal gov't [opm.gov] employs large numbers of civilians, and the military has a considerable number of civilian employees as well.
Re:any of the above, and none at all (Score:1)
Read everything before signing! (Score:2)
One guy I worked with was considering branches, so he went into several recruters. One asked him to sign a health release form so they could do a background check to see if he would be elligable. He did without reading it. Turns out that wasn't a release form is was an agreement to enter the service, and there was no way out.
I don't know if there is any accualy health release forms, but make sure you don't sign anything without understanding it.
Re:Read everything before signing! (Score:1)
And, while it is more difficult, there is pretty much a way out of some kind at any point unless you are in a combat zone somewhere. It can actually be somewhat difficult to stay in the military if you don't have a penchant for following some very demanding and annoying rules.
Voice of Experience (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Voice of Experience (Score:1)
Tactical telephone and data communications in the Army are provided by Signal Battalions. As a new signal officer, you will pull one command tour and one staff tour. Typical staff tours are as "commo" officers for a combat arms battalion (infantry, armor, artillery, etc) with command of the battalion commo platoon a bonus. Commo platoons handle the internal battalion communications (telephones, faxes, PCs, radios, etc).
Command tours will be in command of operational platoons in the signal battalion providing infrastructure services including the military equivalent to cellular telephone. As a commissioned officer, you have given up most of your "down and dirty, hands-on" technical rights, unless you get into R&D or become a warrant officer. You will be given very little technical training on the equipment you are signed for. Your NCOs and enlisted folks are the technicians. That's just the nature of the U.S. Army - officers insure that the work gets done.
I spent 11 years in the U.S. Army in Signal. I have also worked for the USAF as a civilian in IT for the past few years. 2 different organizations with 2 different missions. Hard to quantify what you want if you don't know what is there.
Up or Out (Score:2)
The Coast Guard is more to the point. They're more of a public safety entity than a military service, but they have an impressive history.
Consider the Army (Score:2, Insightful)
1. They will pay off your college loans while you are in. The unbelievable weight that gets off of you is staggering. Although the pay is not great, if you include the roughly $15,000/yr that they pay off, it ain't shabby.
2. Promotion is much faster than in other services. That means that, if you are single, you will get out of a double room that much faster or, if married, get a larger house.
3. This may not sound like a pro, but: the competition is less severe. I mean, the AF and Navy have all the best and brightest, so, in the Army, if you aren't lazy and don't mind running, you will stand out immediately as someone who knows something. You will be a larger fish in a smaller pond.
4. If you are perfectly clean, you will probably get that NSA or whoever job anyway, because they are all joint service staffed.
5. It's a lot more sexy to say you program AND shoot AND blow sh*t up.
My experience: in four years, I learned two languages, got out of debt, payed off student loans, finished my degree, AND got C4 training, 2 weeks sport climbing training, worked with SF, and fired virtually every weapon Spec Forces had. Not a bad way to spend four years.
Email me if you want to talk more
Does it have to be Armed Forces? (Score:2)
If you're getting a degree in C.S., why not work for the NSA? Your current skills will almost defenitly be useful, and you'll get to work on top secret stuff that nobody else knows about.
Don't join for the IT (Score:3, Informative)
Here's my rundown of the 5 branches, and a disclaimer: I was in the Navy, 72-76, on a carrier mostly in Japan and around the far East, and had a great time.
Navy, and at sea, for an adventure none of the others can match. That old slogan really was true (It's not just a job, it's an adventure). Pick a rating which goes to sea on destroyers (radioman, quartermaster, supply, etc) and transfer after two years to a carrier. Get one Pacific ship and the other Mediterranean.
Navy, shore based. A joke. What's the point of joining a sea service and not going to sea?
Navy, if married. Forget it. Sea duty ain't for newlyweds.
Marines. If you want to join the MILITARY, this is it. Again, make sure you at least get one sea tour.
Air Force. I used to think the Air Force would be better technical education wise, but have talked to enough people who knew both and said otherwise. So I personally think the Air Force is just a ho-hum choice; nothing marks it special.
Army. Ditto; nothing to make it special.
Coast Guard. The only one which actually does anything every day other than train. If you want the satisfaction of doing something real every day, like search and rescue, this is it. A plus for many is short sea stays and stateside duty.
To sum it up, if you want to do something you will always remember and will never be able to do after you're married and settled down, join the Navy and make double damned sure you go to sea all four years. Do it for the adventure, not for what you might learn. If you think you might want to make a career of the service, join the Coast Guard. If you simply like military pomp, join the Marines. If you want to join a boring corporation, join the Air Force or Army.
You will never get another chance like those four years, so make the most of it AS AN ADVENTURE.
Think about it: the military has no use for programmers or hardware engineers. That's what industry does. The military is about bodies and weapons, not about IT. Any military job is there to support the guys in trenches.
Re:Don't join for the IT (Score:3, Interesting)
First, I've had almost a year of electronics training that can be transfered to college credit fairly easy. I know the Navy has longer schools (we go to some of them for some of our equipment that we get from them) but theirs are very focused. Coast Guard ETs are given a broad little-bit-of everything because that's what our support task is like. We are much thinner on resources than the other services and so we must make them stretch.
Notice that I am an Electronics Technician. I've got plenty of background in computers and I wanted to stay away from that whole psyched up shebang...though I'll be reprogramming some RADAR Eeproms via a custom serial interface when I get back from leave next week...
In any service it helps a lot to know what you want to do before you get in. Don't rely on recruiters or their aptitude tests. If possible talk to folks who've been in and are doing the job you are interested in.
The Coast Guard's IT program is a sad joke, I don't even want to go there. I pity the fools who are going to be going to the new IT school they're brewing up...(NT 4.0 basics and some exchange hacks that nobody knows how to support and you're on your way have fun. You're an "IT".)
I'll stick to my hardware thank you, as somebody's sig pointed out, if it ain't on fire, it's a software problem. But even then, almost half my job is spent with the human support side. I spend more time training folks (and fixing their mistakes) than I do ripping open racks.
Seeing as you'll have your degree, you'll be pushed into being an Officer (three times the pay for a third the work ain't bad) which is mostly paperwork and babysitting. Unless you get on one of the engineering staffs I dunno what kinda technical stuff you would be doing.
And another thing: Those of us lucky enough to be on whitehulls (Real Ships) spend at least half the year at sea. Don't listen to some sandpeep or squid who tells you otherwise.
good luck!
Re:Don't join for the IT (Score:1)
when the military wants serious work done, they outsource it.
i'm a hard-core geek but served 4 years in the marines before college. marine infantry was a tons of fun.
bottom line, do it for the discipline, the adventure and the personal satisfaction you get out of spreading imperialism all over the world while oppressing indigenous peoples.
Similar situation (Score:2)
Now that I've tried to dissuade you from active duty, consider the guard/reserve. You get much of the perks of active duty: tuition assistance for grad/prof school, management/leadership experience, a broader technical view, some free training which may/may not be useful and the military experience. For me at least, it's a win-win situation. You'll probably want to look into commissioning programs for college grads in any particular services since you're probably missed the boat on ROTC.
As to which service, I know that both the Air Force and the Army always need more technical people. (The Navy probably does too, but it is my duty to dissuade you from having anything to do with them.) The AF and Navy use more COTS(commercial of-the-shelf) technology than the Army, but we're picking up more new toys every year. As information tecnology starts percolating into lower levels and field units the Army may soon be a more high-tech organization than other services. The Army also has the advantage that it's fairly easy to get a non-active duty commission and you'll almost certainly be leading a platoon or running a fairly large staff shop as soon as you get done with training.
Re:always been curious.... (Score:1)
Almost every uniformed person I can possibly imagine undergoes some sort of basic training. All Air Force enlistees pass through six weeks of basic training at Lackland AFB. Officers either attend the AF Academy, a college ROTC program, or Officer Training School. Doctors and lawyers are treated somewhat differently when rank is concerned, but they still undergo basic training.
Of the services, the Marines and Army consider themselves Marines or soldiers first, and "IT professionals" (if there is such a thing in the services) second. The Air Force and Navy identify with their specialty first (pilot, submariner, whatever) and their status as airmen and sailors second. It's purely cultural.
So, if you're either an Army or Marine grunt, you'll be well acquainted with your weapon (rifle). In the Air Force or Navy, it's less likely.
Helevius
Haze Grey and Underway (Score:1)
Navy -- Current Status (Score:1)
1) With a college degree you should go in as an officer. Period. End of story. You will be very unhappy with your treatment as a junior enlisted person. Even with accelerated advancement to E-4 or E-5 you still will be unhappy. You will spend much of your first two years cleaning and standing relatively menial (but important, nonetheless) watches with minimal computer use. With a college degree you can attend Officer Candidate School.
2) Officers rarely if ever program. They work in IT management, system design and implementation, and contracting. If you want to program see 1) but realize enlisted personnel rarely if ever program (5-10 years down the road). They do a lot of front-line system management and network management though.
3) There is currently no direct method into IP. Either become a surface officer or as an Engineering Duty officer (specializes in IT acquisition as well as shipyard management). Direct accessions are planned in a few years.
4) If what you want is to do the job of a network engineer, programmer, etc. don't join the Navy. The 4+ years of training in surface warfare is not worth it if computers are what you're in for (and equals lots of sea time). There is a large and important role for people with a substantial warfighting background in IT management but that's years down the road (and may not be what the surface force has in mind for you).
Advice from the inside the USAF (Score:2)
If you decide to take the officer route, this is what you'll experience: Since you indicated you're about to graduate, you'll most likely get your commission through Officer Training School (OTS) at Maxwell AFB, Montgomery, AL. This is your standard 12 week-long drill of marching, PT, getting yelled at, saluting, standing at attention, etcetera.
After gratuating OTS, you'll head off to Basic Communications Officer Training (BCOT), located at Keesler AFB, Biloxi, Miss. Three months long, the best thing about this school is that it's less than an hour from New Orleans. With a CS degree, you will have absolutely no problem with this course. Trust me. After that, you'll be off to your first assignment. The good thing about being a Comm officer is that it's a global specialty, unlike some other fields (especially pilots) that are restricted to a handful of locations.
The Comm and Info career field is huge. You could have a twenty year career and have a completely different job each assigment. This is just an example of some of the jobs I and some of my friends have filled:
Network infrastructure and fiber optics (routers, switches, working with construction crews)
Airfield Comm systems (Mostly radios and specialized Air Traffic Control and guidance systems)
Network Control Centers (care and feeding of server farms)
Satellite systems
Desktop support and Helpdesk management
Combat Comm (Not really combat, this is setting up basic comm systems in a bare field from scratch, living in tents, eating MRE's)
Radar systems
Security (Firewalls, IDS, passwork cracking, assesments, incident response...)
Visual Information (very cool job, get to work with graphic media, photography, etc)
Information Management ('Powerpoint Rangers')
Information Warfare (hacker in a uniform)
As for the other services, I've had some contact with the Navy and Army. If I didn't join the Air Force the Navy would have definitely been my second choice. Those guys are even more dependent on their systems, and it shows in the quality of their personnel.
As for the Army, let me just say those guys should be standing on top of a hill waving semaphore flags. I don't think they could handle anything more complex.
Think about being an Officer (Score:1)
Shipboard Navy Life (Score:1)
When you're in the middle of the ocean you cannot just call over the next hill for additional supplies or expertise. You have to make do with what you have and what you know. It also means that your troubleshooting skills must be honed.
During long stretches at sea, entertainment is limited to what's onboard. For an IT person, this isolation can be ideal for learning or tinkering to improve one's skills. I found the time useful for reading manuals and fixing my shipmates' broken gear.
Air Force is the way to go (Score:2)
If you want to be a programmer, enlist rather than becoming an officer. It's a 4 yr minimum commitment, then if you like it, you could re-enlist or apply to OTS to become an officer. As an officer, you'd most likely be a manager.
Whatever you do, don't enlist until they guarantee you the job you want.