eschasi asks:
"Recently we've been seeing some trend towards
smaller footprint machines like the new iMac or the tiny PC system
shown in this
recent article. All these tiny systems have scalability or quality
problems for me, and I don't think it has to be that way. But all the
solutions I see require discarding much of what we think is standard
to desktop/deskside mechanical design for PCs. Apple has been able to
do with much more freedom becuase they own the whole process. PC
makers, however, don't. The last major improvement to PC
motherboard/case design was the ATX design, and that was evolutionary
rather than revolutionary. I think that major improvement can still be
made in an evolutionary way. I want both worlds: I want a small
footprint; I want it in a premium system; I want it to have enough
room for a pair of hard drives, a 5.25" external slot, and a 3.5"
external slot; and I want it using largely off-the-shelf components,
and I don't want to have to re-invent ATX and PCI and ya-da-day to
get it!" Do you feel the same way? How would you improve the
current crop of PC form factors?
"IMHO large chunks of the problem could be solved by taking
advantage of both sides of the motherboard. Put the CPU and most of
the misc. chips on one side, put the expansion slots and RAM on the
other. The case design would have to change but that's quite doable.
Using both sides of the motherboard does more than reduce footprint
by half while returning to full expandability. You also get the
benefit of having the RAM sit directly opposite the CPU, reducing
trace length problems and permitting RAM bus speed increases. Other
timing problems might also be reduced.
I've left aside the rest of my extensive arguements for why this is
or isn't a good idea; what I'm interested in is this:
- Do other people see the same drawbacks with small-footprint
systems?
- What seems to be out there on the drawing board for post-ATX
systems?"
Krow's comments: Form factor and cute design is all great and lovely but I want to know what can be done to reduce electrical usage for the average geek's home hosting farm collection. Even small usage reductions add up.
cPCI Cards (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, it's been mentioned before but bring back the USB hub in the monitor base. Means I don't have to run long USB cables for my mouse and keyboard. And for that matter, how about speaker outputs and microphone inputs? Heck, IBM for awhile had units that had the CD-ROM drive in the monitor base. Really wouldn't take up that much real estate beneath a CRT that already has a lot of dead space beneath it.
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:4, Informative)
A few years ago, Intel and Microsoft came up with a spec called Device Bay [1394ta.com] that would allow end users to easily slide-in USB and 1394 drives.
Never caught on with OEMs though. Probably because of the lack of integrated 1394 controllers, but also because in the white-box market every penny counts, and for things like the iPaq desktop, the vendor would prefer that you buy proprietary parts.
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, the HP machines at the EE department of my alma matter [washington.edu]had headphone and mic ports in them. It may not be as convenient as if they were in the monitor, but then again it's a smaller sting to replace a keyboard than a monitor if things start to flake out.
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:5, Insightful)
...or DROPPED!
I've seen a Dell hard disk destroyed in exactly this way. Granted, the owner should have noticed the screw missing, but still, I'd say Dell is mostly to blame for having the hard disk held in by a single, tiny screw.
I'll take a Powerbook any day:
- Batteries and CDROM are securely held in their compartments by a spring-loaded latch. It's almost impossible to accidentally unlatch them, and if you do, who cares, it's just the battery.
- The hard disk, memory, and 802.11 card are stowed safely underneath the keyboard. It takes about two seconds to flip down the keyboard, 20 seconds to install an Airport card, five minutes to install memory, and five minutes to swap the HD.
- *much* sleeker/thinner styling than the Dells, whether Titanium or Bronze.
Vaios are my favorite PC laptop, but that's not saying much. I can't stand the keyboards on the Vaios. Why does nearly every PC latop maker think they're doing us a favor by putting the arrow keys where the shift key ought to be?
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:3, Interesting)
It would definitely be a nice trend.
I also like the early Macs (not sure about the current ones), where you could remove all components with tabs and such, no screwdriver required.
-me
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:2)
Packard Bell, the upgrader's nightmare. E-Machines is nearly as bad with their extremely cheap hardware and only 1 or 2 pci slots (on the machines I've opened), but at least they give you slots you can use.
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally, I'd like it if the whole PCI bus was changed from electrical to some kind of optical connector.
Something in a connector kind of like what you find on newer consumer electronic audio components these days.
I know that optical BW has got to be sufficient, AFAICT the only issues are the cost of putting the converters on motherboards and the latency of these devices.
Then, the CPU and RAM would be in a single small quiet cube with a small power supply and fan and a handful of optical connectors.
These would then connect to CD, DVD, IDE drives, monitors, keyboards, boxes that convert to RJ-45 for copper Ethernet, to USB, IEEE1394 or whatever else in the way of legacy connected devices are still around.
Then, you could keep the noisy disks in a utility room where they belong and the desktop would be a handful of small quiet cubes with kbd,LCD,mouse instead of this large hulk of a PC case that needs to enclose a populated M/B with wide ribbon connectors, CD drives, disks and the whole doghouse.
Just dreaming.
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:5, Interesting)
There are some products out there which let you extend DVI using fiber optics (100 yards) or electronic repeaters (50 yards). Take a look at www.gefen.com [gefen.com]. You could put your PC off in the closet and have just a perfectly silent monitor+keyboard in your office.
The fiber equipment is ridiculously expensive - about $3K, but the electrical repeaters are probably a bit more affordable.
You can't do this with VGA due to the distortion and ghosting, but it works flawlessly with DVI. Also the spec on DVI [ddwg.org] is an interesting read - it was actually designed with optical transmission in mind. The data rates are insane, so it's split across four channels (clock + 3 colors, IIRC) - the total data rate for a 1600x1024 display is something like 4Gbps.
Re:cPCI Cards (Score:2)
The Problem with PCI... (Score:2)
I find that a major problem with small-PC construction is the actual PCI cards themselves. You see, there's no standard for the size of a PCI card. It can be as small as a 3/4" high network card to as big as 4 1/2" tall, as short as 5" or as long as 9" (or larger). Every single small-PC I've come across (LPX, NLX, Flex-ATX, or proprietary) which is less than 4 1/2" tall inside the chasis, either some kind of riser card is needed to place ISA/PCI cards parallel to the motherboard, or using hard-to-find 1/2 height PCI cards. They often get in the way because of their un-proportionate size (ever try to grasp that tiny network card that's placed inbetween two full-size PCI cards?).
One thing which I think would desparately help PC architecure is to standardize PCI card sizes, as well as offer half-height PCI cards for flex-ATX and mATX motherboards. By getting rid of the irregular size of the PCI card, it lets PC architects to actually plan for efficient PC cases by planning for how much space will be used for PCI/AGP cards, rather than just guessing by wasting a lot of space for it.
Dell slide-out PCI card cage (Score:2)
Where do you want to go today? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where do you want to go today? (Score:3, Interesting)
From what I am reading from this article is that the writer wants to pursue as whole new motherboard design, lets call it MAT - for Mini AT. With this MAT design, you would be able to still have the current expandabiliy of the desktop, but have it in a smaller system.
Look at the bulk of current systems - you have a side mounted MoBo. If MAT kept this, BUT was able to use this double sided printed - you could take much of the depth of you case out. The height might not change much. Or you could keep the same depth, but change the height, amd move much of the stuff (like the power supply) to the front where you just vacated much of the MoBo. This would result in a case that is slightly wider than what we see now, shorter, and still just as deep.
What I envision when I am thinking about what the auther is talking about is to take the MoBo and do a top mounted design (you will see why in a bit). The processor and most of the chips would reside on the side of the MoBo that faces UP. You would mount your cards on the other side (probably same size cards). Your power supply and drives could be mounted at the bottom of the system, under the cards. The main issue would be venting - and with that, I would propose vents along the TOP back of the system, with the MoBo doing most of the channeling of air. It would direct air in a way that it would have to go to the front of the case, OVER the MoBo and then out the back - this would HOPEFULLY displace the rising air off of the CPU and other chips. You could use a number of fans to input air from the lower side of the system. Overall, you would end up with a wider, but possibly shorter and not nearly a long front to back.
This would be a very interesting project to undertake. But while making a case would probably be easy to do OR get done, making a MoBo that would fit to these standards is probably beyond the range of most people who are reading this.
-RonB
hmm (Score:3, Redundant)
Why I don't want a laptop (Score:3, Informative)
The Shuttle SV24 allows you to use one PCI card, a 5-1/4" bay and your choice of processors (okay, maybe not _any_ processor, but still, you have more choice than with most laptops). You're not stuck with the relatively low-res display that the laptop has and you can use your preferred monitor, keyboard and mouse. It's also nice to have the keyboard disconneced from the display so you can get a more ergonomic setup.
Yeah, if you've got a USB keyboard and mouse, you don't really have to worry about that, but then you'll need to get a hub. And you can plug your external monitor into the laptop, but why spend the money on a laptop anyway? For the built-in UPS/battery?
No, Tom's Hardware has it right- the only problem with the Shuttle design is the integrated graphics (and possibly the audio too), but for most people, that's a pretty reasonable compromise for a small unobtrusive system.
Yeah, I'd like to wait and see what might come out with the nVidia GeForce chipset in the Flex-ATX form factor.
Interestingly, notice how no one cares about where to put a floppy drive?
Cappuccino & Espresso anyone?? (Score:4, Informative)
Great little machine, if you've got the money for it, and have a reason for wanting it...(easy machine to haul around for gaming sessions). But this machine's exactly what you're looking for.
I know what I'd get rid of... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I know what I'd get rid of... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I know what I'd get rid of... (Score:2, Informative)
It's been done. Look up microchannel architecture (or better yet, open up an old IBM PS/2). Everything slid in and out on rails, and where other computers would use screws, they used fat plastic pins. Drives connected to the contoller by a riser card with edge connectors.
Re:I know what I'd get rid of... (Score:2)
Re:I know what I'd get rid of... (Score:3, Insightful)
I haven't read much into Serial ATA, but that sounds promising also.
I have good news and bad news. (Score:2)
The bad news is that the motherboard and drive manufacturers are largely ignoring it in favor of standardizing on an ugly, unproven and untested hack [serialata.org] that won't be available in consumer kit until 2004 at the earliest.
Why? You got me, captain. As far as I can tell, because they prefer paying patent licensing fees to Maxtor rather than Apple.
If I sound bitter, it's only because of the blood I've shed having to route IDE cables inside my Wintendo box.
Re:I know what I'd get rid of... (Score:2)
Box design (Score:2, Insightful)
If this is going to catvh on it'll have to be standardized - kinda like car stereos - otherwise various sound cards and/or video cards and wires are gonna hit each other.
One last thing - working on these motherboards/systems is gonna be like working on modern cars as opposed to 1970's muscle cars where you could almost sit inside the hood as opposed to today where you almost have to be Plasticman or Mr. Fantastic..
TARDIS case (Score:2, Funny)
Other Form Factors (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Other Form Factors - NLX not NTX (Score:3, Informative)
The NLX form factor was designed for compatness, serviceability and flexibility in mind. The mainboard itself is very small and has no expansion slots--rather it has a card edge that plugs into a special slot on a backplane. The backplane contains the mainboard slot plus one or more PCI slots (the only drawback I see is that I havent found an NLX backplane that has an AGP slot--other than that it would be an ideal form factor!). The typical mini-desktop might only have one or two PCI slots, but with this form factor largger cases or industrial racks could have a backplane with many more slots (expandability).
Also, since the mainboard plugs INTO a slot rather than having slots with cards in them it makes expandability/serviceability MUCH easier--it you need to expand memory, upgrade or replace the motherboard, etc. you simply unlatch the board and pull it out the back of the case, without removing any cards or disassembling the chassis. The prime drawback, as sachmet mentions, is the lack of mainboards and cases sold in this form factor. Consequently they fetch larger prices. Why this is is beyond me--I guess it's the inertia of maintaining a modicum of compatibilityh with the 20 year old PC form factor...
Re:Other Form Factors - NLX not NTX (Score:2, Insightful)
One word (Score:2, Redundant)
Big Cases. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Big Cases. (Score:2)
Under cold rational thought, does it make sense. No. But it sure make getting six digit purchase orders through.
They whole issue of size is as much a question of psychology as geometry. (Must stay away from Freud jokes)
Re:RIGHT ON! (Score:2, Funny)
hell yeah!!!
what are they more likely to steal, a 5 lb laptop or a 100lb monolith???
i've been weighing mine down with lead, cement and chains for just this reason. Aluminum lightweights- phaw!
Uhhh... we already have a small standard. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Uhhh... we already have a small standard. (Score:2, Informative)
read all about it:
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/flexat
Re: (Score:2)
Drawback - They Have no "Killer App" (Score:5, Insightful)
You might say this isn't true, but the majority of computer users aren't "geeks". Since the computer isn't so widespread that it's in every room of the house - usually, there's one or two an "affluent" household - people can hide them away in offices which aren't going to be seen by your houseguests and the like, making the "style" thing unnecessary. Furthermore, the consumer has gotten so used to the grey-box case that it's still considered "in style".
That's not to say that someday in the future, the smaller, chic computer won't become more widespread. I think the problem is that the consumer isn't willing to spend more AND sacrifice power to do it, and currently, that's what they've got to do.
sound card connections should be upfront! (Score:2, Insightful)
If a smaller form factor is to succeed, it would need to rely on wireless peripherals. The big problem is the tangled mess of wires in the back. For all the shortcomings of laptaps, at least everything is built into the design rather than relying on peripherals to do everything.
Re:sound card connections should be upfront! (Score:2, Informative)
Sounds like you could use something like this [frontx.com].
Re:sound card connections should be upfront! (Score:2, Informative)
-Tammie
Re:sound card connections should be upfront! (Score:2, Interesting)
both sides of the motherboard? (Score:2)
psxndc
Simi-OT What about the Inverse? (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, granted, a modern minitower is nice.. but two or three lights just arent enough.
I therefore start the campaign for more blinkinlights.
Sun Systems are nice. Large (You have the "Refrigerator Cabinet", "End Table" and "Ottoman" form factors). Adequate blinking lights (ESPECIALLY on 6500's!)..
I want my computer to have lots of lights. I don't care if they do anything. I want my keyboard to sit in the middle of a console with a lot of dials, gauges, digital readouts, switches, buttons, knobs, and things that go "PING!" (a ping light WOULD be good, to think of it.) I want to see my network utilization on a graph led. I want to see my processor usage there, too. I want to see a red light come on each time some PFY discovers WinNuke, or someone tries to NIMDA me. I want to have one of those covered red buttons that may or may not launch a thermonuclear device. I want screens that go "zeeeeeeeerp, zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerp" as text scrolls across it.
I already have three monitors on my desk. Wires strewn everywhere. But what else do i have? An Ultra 5, A beanie baby, and a dell optiplex. And a Dell Keyboard (at least i makes those satisfying *click*'s.). I WANT SWITCHES, dammit.
soo... any suggestions?
[notices steam rising from ears]
err.. teehee..
Re:Simi-OT What about the Inverse? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Simi-OT What about the Inverse? (Score:2, Informative)
Check out Matrix Orbital's collection of LCDs and VFDs [matrixorbital.com]. They're pretty snazzy-looking, and lcdproc clients for processor usage, network usage, are already around. I have two of their VFDs (a 20x2 and a 20x4) and they are good blinkenlights. LinuxCentral [linuxcentral.com] sells them.
I know this isn't an answer to all your needs, but it should help a little.
Re:Simi-OT What about the Inverse? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Simi-OT What about the Inverse? (Score:2)
Take the filter on the fan grill on the front of the case. Stick a blue LED behind it. Hook the blue LED up to either your NIC's network-use light.
Next to the blue LED, get one of those traffic-light-green LEDs (regular green LEDs are lame. The traffic-light-green ones look like the green stuff behind the heads of Borg drones), and hook it up to your hard drive use light.
The ventilation holes (you don't have ventilation holes in front of your case? drill some ;-) will then be backlit by a diffuse (by the fan's filter) green/blue source, and flicker eerily, changing color as you use more network or disk resources.
Similar hacks for other stuff - modem RX/TX pins on your serial port, or a graphic equalizer hooked into your sound card - are also feasible.
Use the guts of one of those little outdoor thermometers to give yourself an LCD "case temperature" display.
Your blinkenlights are out there, you just gotta work at finding 'em!
Re:Simi-OT What about the Inverse? (Score:4, Funny)
"See this knob? I turn it, and our CRM goes faster." "This switch disconnects all users" "This button redirects all bandwith to my workstation" "This blinking red light is.. just a blinking red light" "Oh.. the blinking blue light? It means one of the executives is donwnloading porn. yes, i know its on solid."
I like the suggestion someone else made.. Analog VU meters for Bandwith.. Except i'd want some form of steam actuator on it, for when bandwith approaches maximum.
Reminds me of cars (Score:2)
What we need a new optical-based motherboard (Score:2, Interesting)
Ditch the ATX (Score:2)
Attention chassis manufacturers: HANDLES (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm an avid gamer. I had to buy a third-party (albeit excellent) product from CaseAce [geargrip.com] to help me carry my box to LAN parties etc. And I got a flat-screen monitor that was easier to carry than my 17" monitor.
But if computer manufacturers would just put a stout handle built in to the case, that would go a long way towards making me happy. Same thing for monitor builders, although I understand the problem is different for them.
For instance, look at the Gamecube [nintendo.com]. Arguably as much power as the other gaming platforms, but much easier for portage purposes. Why can't computer makers take a hint here?
Re:Attention chassis manufacturers: HANDLES (Score:2)
Apple got the hint about 3 years ago, with the blue 'n' white cases. They were butt-ugly, but extremely functional. And the latest Mac towers have fixed the butt-ugly problem.
Drop by a CompUSA (don't worry, you don't have to buy anything -- you won't even be able to find a salesman if you want one) and feast your eyes on the Macs.
Re:Attention chassis manufacturers: HANDLES (Score:2)
I'm sorry. I really couldn't help myself. It was too easy.
But seriously, I have seen a few third party ATX cases with handles built in, and a few bolt-on handle kits.
Stackable components (Score:3, Interesting)
Modular Re:Stackable components (Score:2)
Modular System links [slashdot.org]
Old School (Score:3, Funny)
For a lot of systems that were made and sold Back In The Day, the power supply was, wisely, in a separate box from the mobo. The CPU is not the only heat source on a PC... Setting the power supply behind your desk, away from the case, might make a small system a lot easier to do.
Also, we have been keeping the keyboard as a separate component ever since the old 8086 days... but is that always the best way to go?
It seems to me that the perfect reduced-footprint destop PC design would look a little like a laptop PC with no screen, a nicer keyboard, and no touchpad... perhaps with a cable output for bridging to an optional stand-alone box for PCI expansion cards (for those who want the flexibility).
The end result: a latter-day C-64. Ahh, nostalgia...
The Amiga 500... (Score:2)
What always amazed me about that design was if you looked at the back all the cables for external floppy, serial, video, printer, and so on had ways that you could screw the cables in so that they would not accidentally come loose.
That was really quite thoughtful of them, there's nothing like having a peripheral accidentally come unplugged to ruin your day.
It's just too bad the power supply cable wasn't similarly attached. Pull the computer forward... *pop* there goes the power.
ALL cards should be Parallel to the main board (Score:2, Insightful)
Few things stick out in my mind (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Improve the layout to facillitate air flow. Perhaps if there was a way to vent the cpu, vid card, and power supply and atmospher cool the rest, then perhaps it could be done with fewer fans.
2) Make front-mounted slots a standard so that adding front mounted devices such as the Creative EAX, USB and Firewire ports, headphone jack, could all be done without making custom modifications or using up an external drive bay.
3) Edge-mounted cabling? Nothing bugs me more than having to unplug all of my IDE drives to change ram.
4) How about let's all de-evolve into s-bus computers form factor, then scale by adding cpu-self contained boards (what was that, the compaq 386?) that plug in the bus.
5) screwless drive bays?
6) how about a 1U alternative designed for the home?. I'd think more home appliances things with WiFI could be made with a equipment rack-mounted system if it didn't take up so much room.
Board design doesn't work that way. (Score:4, Informative)
Smaller isn't always better (Score:2, Interesting)
The last center I was at before transferring to Arizona had large towers. There was no way someone was going to walk out with one of these without someone seeing them. The only reason we had large towers, is because the systems were old (166's). From that perspective, I regret that it is more difficult to order large PC's in bulk. Sure we could order the chassis and put all the parts in them ourselves, but that takes a lot of time, too.
Stackable! (Score:2, Interesting)
Look at consoles (Score:3, Insightful)
Putting stuff on the other side of the board has advantages and disadvantages, but however you do it a shrink in board size will rock. You will no longer need a full tower case to get a bunch of drives in. Mid tower cases will be able to hold as many drives as full towers do now if you shrink the board.
As for cooling, look at other small computers, like console systems. Especially the GameCube. It has one fant blowing air in on one side, out on the other. Because of it's small size, it becomes easier to cool, not harder. You have less fans, moving more air.
Legos are the answer (Score:5, Interesting)
I was given the idea by looking at the original Google server in the basement of the Stanford CS department. Its case is built from Legos (or, maybe Duplos in reality... they're pretty big).
But why not start with a small form factor for the mobo+busses+limited drivespace. Then, anything you want to add on gets clicked together with another piece. Need two external 5 1/4 bays? Use a 2H piece. Build it as you see fit.
The real issue at that point is a standard bus architecture to bridge the components, but I think the flexibility potential is immense. Got too many devices? Click in an additional 1H powersupply. Need to move your CDRW between boxes? It's a "snap" (insert "hardy-har-har" here).
The drawbacks are of course heat and redundancy. Each module whould have to be self contained at the start, but I can even envision a series of holes bridging components as well... like those old hamster tubes worked. Need more flow because you've got a stack of 43 devices? Add an extra fan module somewhere along the path.
Anyway, it's not here yet, nor will it likely ever be, since it's not mass-marketable (I think). But, it would allow flexibility to grow, a small footprint and size for home users, and massive physical component compatability.
Legos were always the answer when I was 12, too. Some things never change.
Two sided doesn't work (Score:4, Informative)
BookPC, laptops PC104 (Score:2)
Apple makes some nice hardware, but their range of designs and form factors is very limited in comparison to the PC world: a big box, an iMac, and two sizes of laptops (well, three if you count the two iBooks). You could always get something similar in the PC world (even when it comes to the iMac, the IBM Netvista X series [ibm.com] is similar in form factor, though not style).
Tardis (Score:2)
NLX form factor (Score:2)
The NLX form factor is widely used for "enterprise" PCs, aka cubical PCs, where space is a premium. For example see the Gateway E series [gateway.com].
The NLX has a 5.25" bay for CD-ROM/DVD and four half-height 3" bays (two accessible from the front panel). Up to 3 PCI cards plug into the riser card.
The result is a very nice little box with as much performance as you need.
My thoughts... (Score:3, Informative)
The MicroATX/FlexATX/WhateverATX form factors are the latest steps towards a smaller PC. You can reuse most of the ATX parts for a smaller system. Of course, the problem is that most people who like premium computers want lots of slots, so that doesn't happen.
So the market of people who want small PCs who aren't willing to buy an already made low-profile PC from someone, who want good parts, is too small to be useful.
Now, eventually motherboards will get smaller for the simple reason that as speeds go up, traces need to be shorter. And when there isn't room for improvement, parts will be integrated. Think of disk controllers, serial controllers, etc.
The main reason why you don't like the Shuttle low-profile system is probably video, which is right now too much of a moving target. Eventually, video will settle down and people will be able to get great 2D/3D for a $25 chip. At least, until they find a new area to push video cards with.
Now, it probably WOULD be possible to attach components to both sides of a motherboard. But you wouldn't want any user servicible parts on the bottom, because that would increase the difficulty of upgrades. This won't give you a perfect reduction in motherboard size simply because the motherboard layout is subject to a lot of finicky tollerences that mean that certain parts need to be in certain places.
I suspect that the ATX form factor could use some changes. I'd like to see explicit support for front-mounted jacks, better management of the LED/Speaker/Etc jumpers, standardized front-mounted ethernet activity lights for rackmount, etc. But remember that the ATX form factor is best extended over time with compatable changes instead of going through massive changes all at once. That's the beauty of FlexATX/MicroATX -- they didn't require massive retooling of assembley lines to the new standard, and you can always stick a FlexATX or MicroATX motherboard into a regular ATX case, in a pinch.
Idoru (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm compute from one desk anyway and I don't move much so I want something that is decoratively interesting: tesla coils, neon, blinking lights, smoke effects, lasers, and gysers of flame!
Swappable hard drive etc. (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple improves usability by making it "just work" out of the box for 90% of computer users. But obviously Slashdot power-users are in the other 10%
DeviceBay was a spec for hard drives and other components that would slide in and out of the chassis, and connect using FireWire or USB (so you could swap things on-the-fly). It was mostly for rack-mounter server farms, but would have made everyone's life easier. Unfortunately, it never went anywhere.
Back in the early 90s Apple and a few design firms were playing with ideas for a computer that looked like a rail, or a backplane. Components, cards, drives, were hung on the rail or slotted into the backplane.
Manufacturers (besides Apple) don't really seem to care about the usability of the box, though. If they did they would have ripped off the PowerMac G4's side door well and pronto (Dell's attempt at it can most charitably be described as "half-assed").
Heat dissipation and noise (Score:2)
As an example, as I type, my girlfriend's laptop (K6-350 or so) is in the room, and I am typing on my mid-tower Athlon (which I have fitted low noise fans to). If you stand in the middle of the room, the screech of her computers fans is far more offensive than the low whirr of mine.
You may make your computer as small as you want, but if it makes a noise like a jet engine, it's still going to be an offensive object to work around.
not_cub
the LED/powerswitch/speaker connectors (Score:2, Insightful)
rather than the huge jumble of cables.. the connectors on which usually don't fit the motherboard pins for them anyway
Apple's take on things (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as I can see this is a fact that the rest of the PC industry has never caught onto properly. If you sensibly match all the components in a machine then most users will never need or want to change a thing.
This is different to the /. crowd who want to do this all the time but we are hardly a random sample are we.
Kelv!
why not? (Score:3, Interesting)
CPU The cpu needs room to breathe. Athlons and p4s output lots of heat. The heatsink cannot be obstructed... Period! An obstructed cpu is an accessability pain, as well.
Drive bays 1 internal 3.5 bay and 1external 3.5 and 1 5.25 would be plenty. Very few users have 2 hard drives (most geeks do, but this is geared twoards end users. If they do, they can sacrifice their floppy drive, and possibly buy a usb fdd). Adding an extra internal bay wastes precious space... Of course, there could be exceptions made to the specification for some cases with more bays. Anyhow, firewire drives are getting dirt-cheap nowindays...
Now, for my suggestions
45 degree expansion slots. Probably my most radical argument. It's pretty self explanitory: PCI and AGP slots are on a 45 degree angle, thus reducing the amount of space needed. This is assuming that the motherboard has 3ish slots to begin with. It's not as efficent for pcs with only 1 or 2 slots.
"Unspecified hole" On the rear ports template, place a rectanglar "hole" there, where the motherboard maker can place any extraneous ports it wants (s-video, extra usb or firewire ports, video capture, scsi.. etc).
Rear template The rear template needs more connectors then a regular pc. This is becasue these compact pcs will have few expansion cards in them. This is where ATX really falls on its face. The ports it should have are
4 usb
2 firewire
2 ps/2
1 ethernet/modem (hole big enough to fit either/or)
2 serial/video
1 parallel (legacy, my friend, legacy)
4 sound (for s/pdif or rear channel)
Game port?? This seems rather extraneous with the rise of USB joysticks. Perhaps a bracket should be provided instead. Any die-hard gamers will have a dedicated sound card, anyway...
CPU at the BOTTOM of the board Place all the cool-running components at the top of the case, under the drive cage and PSU, and put the cpu and the connectors at the bottom. Sheesh. Didn't the ATX people think of this... It's also a shorter fall when your heatsink falls off. Possibly put the IDE connectors at the bottom too??
ATX power supply It ain't broke, it seems to work fine, the units aren't horifficly big, either. An idea would be to have super-compact units accept d/c power with an external a/c adapter...
Non-conductive motherboard mount points. It's quite annoying when you're installing a motherboard, and it requires washers at the mount points, in order to function. This adds about $0.25 to the manufacturing process.
Drive rails. Every case should have these. Sure, it's a luxury... but, it's a nice one. So are thumbscrews, and removable motherboard trays, etc...
All in all, we have a case that is signifigantly smaller then normal ATX cases, yet not too small to loose it's functionality... I got a bit carried away, and it looks like some of my specifications would possibly add size.... oh bother! Did i forget something?
Both sides of the board. (Score:3, Informative)
Consider a single sided board:
Solder screening deposits solder paste on board
Pick and Place machines place the parts on the board. They are held in place by the surface tension of the solder paste.
IR reflow melts the solder. Any misalignment of a part is handled by the surface tension of the liquid solder.
Board cools.
Smoke test.
Ship it.
Now, consider a two sided board:
Screen solder on backside.
Pick and place parts, using small daubs of glue to hold the parts on the board (surface tension won't hold a part against gravity).
IR reflow backside. Because parts are not free-floating, any misalignment stays.
Flip board over.
Screen solder on top of board
Pick and Place parts.
IR reflow. Solder on bottom of board melts too, hence the glue.
Smoke test.
Swear, since the parts on the bottom of board are out of alignment and board doesn't work.
Wireless Mouse (Score:2, Insightful)
Why don't laptop manufacturers include wireless mice? Almost everyone hates trackpads, eraser heads, etc. when compared with real, scrollable, optimal mice.
Yes, I know that wireless mice exist, but why not put the receiver *inside* the laptop itself. So a little mouse is the only extra part outside of the case.
You might say the people would lose them, but then again, manufacturers could make a killing with replacements for dumb users who can't keep track of their mice.
Changes (Score:2)
1) The guts have to be easy to work with. I thing that single-sided boards are probably mandated by air flow for cooling.
2) There are too many cables inside the machine. You have cables going from cards to drives (such Sound Card to CD or DVD) or the motherboard to drives. There are a boatload of cables from the power supply to the drives. I should be able to just slide a drive in from the front and have it make data and power connections. You have one big fat cable dropping down from the drive support along the wall to the motherboard, and another for power daisy-chained along the sides of the drives. Now cooling is a lot easier, and you don't trace amorphous gray ribbon cable around inside or get the twist just so to make the far reach around the other cabling.
3) Too many outside cables. The printer, the keyboard, the mouse, the modem, the gamepad or joystick. Egads, let's make some of this wireless. The case should support lots of wireless devices. The standard case should be able to support a bunch of wireless devices within 5 or so feet (maybe even 10) of the computer.
It is out there. The manufacturers are ramping up (Score:2, Informative)
Now fast forward to today. I've been eyeing the smaller cases, but have been unwilling to buy one of the "Book PC's" which is typically a Flex ATX case. They wanted $100 for a case. With only a 150watt power supply to boot. But as of a month ago the Aopen flex ATX cases are in the $35-40 range, and I'm getting ready to make the leap. The remaining hurdle for the Flex cases is the availability of motherboards for the AMD line of processors. It is easy to find a flex ATX motherboard with the Intel 810 chipset, but you get cheap video with a poorly performing Celeron processor. Another minor drawback is that most of the current flex ATX cases/book PC's can only take a Pentium 1Gz because of heating and inadequate power supply wattage. Which will also kill idea of putting several hard drives inside the case too. Those drives take about 30-50 watts at startup time (each). I'd much rather have a Duron with a TNT2 or GeForce video card in the one available slot, but they aren't available yet. Nforce would be great for this application too, but they have just started to ship the full size boards. The "niche" flex ATX market will have to wait for probably another 6 months, but it will come.
So summary. Wait a little, it is coming.
It depends what you want to give up. (Score:2)
If you want smaller, you'll have to give something up. Like you, the last thing I want to give up is standardized components. I like reliability, and don't want some of the bare-bones small systems I've seen sold.
I made a simple layout with a std ATX PSU over & blocking the PCI slots (horrors!) but leaving one and the AGP slot clear. 3.5" drive in front, CDROM/DVD over the DIMMs & the CPU clear. About 12 x 12 x 5 inches. Clamshell case for better accessibility.
Who needs expansion? (Score:3, Insightful)
In all other cases by the time I need a bigger hard drive, I also need a faster CPU, more memory and a better monitor.
At home, where the usage is less demanding (web surfing), I upgraded modems twice, replaced one hard drive, and added memory. This is of seven computers I had.
All in all, IMHO expandability is something that the average user does not need (beyond swapping components), and the advanced user thinks will need but doesn't either (a few devoted hackers excepted).
Roll your own (Score:3, Offtopic)
If you are looking for something small and easy to move around yet is upgradable, consider doing something like this:
my server [cmu.edu]
Built into a small briefcase, I can carry it to school and have it running without even opening it. Running linux I can ssh in and do everything I need. It runs a generic Slot1 mobo with 3 pci slots so you can conceivably throw in your favorite PCI Radeon or GF2, a 1 gig PIII, 3 slots worth of RAM, and have a pretty good machine.
pros, cons use (Score:2)
Of course, if these issues can be addressed with a sane form factor standard, I think everyone would be happy to have smaller computers. Smaller is better, so long as it doesn't apply to things that would require you to buy an expensive car to compensate.
Personally, I think one of the major limitations of the ATX standard is the breakout. If there were a standard IO block that connected to the motherboard with a cable, you would have a lot more freedom when it came to positioning the board inside the case. Old AT motherboards did this for everything except the keyboard connector, I seem to recall. It would be a little more complicated to install, but I think it would be better.
Or, we could just make mass market PC104 [pc104.org] stacks for everything.
Wah wah (Score:4, Insightful)
everything asked for here exists already (Score:2)
t's called PC-104 form factor. tiny, modular, expandable.
the problem is that it's horribly expensive.
a 486 pc104 card with processor is $500.00 a pentium unit is about a grand.
it's not because they are super expensive or difficult to build. in fact it is 100% identical to engineer and build your asus board as a pc104 board or a laptop board.... it's demand.. pc104 is only used for industrial or fringe computing (wearable, mobile,sattelites)
you wanna build a PC that looks like the new Imac? no prob... pc-104 and some lamp parts. it'll cost you about 6-7 grand though without the lcd panel.
2-sided motherboard (Score:3)
First, many people would say that you should get rid of the card slots and hang any add-ons outside the box on the USB or Firewire boxes. I'm not going to address that -- it's OK for those who won't do much with their 'puters, and it would save $10 to $30 in parts, but I want those slots!
The change to the case is rather minor: tall standoffs for MB mounting, make the case an inch or two thicker but smaller in other dimensions. There would be resistance from people who were worried about being able to get a new MB to fit that case when needed, but this hasn't stopped case evolution before. And I do see a trend towards shorter, more cube-like towers. However, there are some real manufacturing & physical difficulties. They're solvable, but might run the costs up:
1. The CPU heatsink has to change considerably, because you won't want to waste the two+ inches of space needed for a conventional heat-sink/fan. How about a liquid cooling bag using that side of the case as the radiator? Does that cost a lot more?
2. Most motherboards presently use bus and RAM connectors with wave-soldered through-hole pins. That is, the MB end of the connector is male pins, which go through holes on the board, then they are soldered all at once by pumping liquid solder up to the bottom of the board as it goes down a conveyor. You cannot put the CPU socket through this, and it's probably not a good idea to put the chipset's giant IC's through the wave either. (Small capacitors and resistors are OK on the wave-solder side, and it's quite common to find them on the bottom of a MB.)
3. Also, if you are using through-hole connectors and a board not much bigger than required to hold the connectors, where do you put the CPU and other big chips that don't conflict with a through-hole pin?
The solution to #2 and #3 is obviously to change to surface-mount (SMT) connectors. They cost more now, although that would change if more MB manufacturers ordered them. But at present they are also more trouble-prone than the through-hole parts. There's been more than 60 years of work done on improving wave-solder yields, and about 20 on SMT, so we get more defects in SMT, and the testers aren't as good at finding them.
Finally, bus connectors take quite a lot of force when inserting and removing boards. There's no chance of through-hole connectors pulling loose from that, because the holes in the board were plated with copper, and the solder goes all the way through and broadens out like a rivet at each end. It's not going anywhere unless the solder breaks at one end and the copper separates from the board everywhere else; I have no idea of the breaking strength of the pin/solder connection, because if I hook a hydraulic puller onto a through-hole connector either the connector body or the fiberglass-epoxy board will break first.
SMT has a lot less inherent strength; the pads are just laminated onto the top of the board, and can pull off. So the connectors have to also have pegs or screws that go through the board and are fastened on the other side. In a PCI connector, you can only put pegs at the end, so the connector body has to be rigid enough that the middle won't pull up. This is another reason (besides lower production volumes) that SMT connectors are more costly -- extra plastic is expensive.
OTOH, we put the through-hole connectors in by hand and the SMT by machine. All the issues are potentially solvable (sometimes by spending more on parts and machines and less on labor), and I expect that in another 10 years pure SMT will become cheaper than the present SMT/throughhole hybrid technologies. It just hasn't happened yet, and I have no idea what PC's will look like by the time SMT bus connectors do become common.
I'd leave it alone. (Score:2)
Screw Sizes/Gauges (Score:2, Insightful)
Talk all you want about sexy stuff like sliding rails and things like that, all I want is a standard on screw sizes.
The last PC case I opened had 4 (count 'em, FOUR) different types of screws all doing the same job. One size kept the cards in place, one size kept the hard drives in place, one size kept the floppy in place and one size kept the cover on. All the same length, all the same head type (thank God) but different gauges and thread types. They look amazing similar in a pile on the desk, however...
And there is a special place in Hell for the guy that insists on putting slot-head screws in ANYTHING.
Think on the Side of the Box (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the big problems of modern PC design is cooling. Perhaps the answer is in plain sight - the side of the case.
Just provide a thermal path from the CPU to the side of the case. This may not be easy, but is solvable.
Ideas:
Heat pipes. Overclockers have used them, spacecraft use them - they're proven. A heat pipe with rounded ends and mounts with rounded receptacles and a bit of thermal paste. Conduct heat to the side of the case, and allow for variations of the CPU location.
Thermal strap. Some spacecraft use these, too. They conduct heat well. They are not as multidimentionally adjustable as above, but can be worked out.
At least one side of the case would have to be thermally conductive. Aluminum or copper would suffice. The case side could then be made flat or ridged. The "side" could also be the upper panel of the case, provided you don't really want a big, heavy monitor on top of it. Just imagine a sculpted, polished copper case sitting on top of your desk. A pain to clean, put purty.
The idea takes the concept of shrinking the PC, and also answers another problem - noise. One can eliminate a fan (or more, extend the idea to other components) and gain coolness.
I think I may start designing a case for myself.
Jonathan (Score:3, Interesting)
It looked a lot like a row of books standing on a desk. Working out the various buses would be an interesting challenge, (just put everything onto fiber optics?) but it could be very small or large, depending on user tastes and what hardware they'd acquired. And parts could easily be reused or replaced.
Naturally, being a really cool idea, nothing came of it. (particularly since Apple was considering opening the standard to everyone)
There's some pictures in the book "Apple Design" but I haven't seen any online.
Re:Reducing electrical usage (Score:2)
There are some advantages to running things at 200+ volts in a server enviornment, but it has more to do with physical building wiring than with power consumption.
Re:Reducing electrical usage (Score:2)
Re:RTFM (Score:2, Insightful)
(since when did good engineers complain about things being a "major pain in the ass"?)
Re:RTFM (Score:2)
The EMI between the two pieces of the board would make the board an absolute nightmare to route traces on. You'd have to provide some sort of shielding between the two boards...adding to the cost. In my work as a simulation engineer, I've seen several motherboards come along that canted their DDR DIMM sockets at 45 degrees to provide a 1U-sized server board, but the interference between the board and the DIMMs made the whole thing a very shaky proposition. Putting two sections of board with high frequency traces parallel to each other is just begging for trouble.
Also, I'm not sure I see where that saves any space...maybe you can save some height, but then you're stuck with a wider footprint. Remember, there still has to be room for the cards, and, just as important, room for air to flow over heat sensitive components.
I've looked at some MicroATX boards and cases. That seems like an excellent alternative, although, much like early ATX boards, adherance to the standard seems to be a little iffy.
-h-
Re:Size and cooling issues are the biggest problem (Score:2, Interesting)
like so? [amiga-society.de]
(that's kinda a poor picture, but you get the idea)
Re:Whatever happened to "legacy free" PCs? (Score:2)
Serial ports and keyboard go? How? Sure I can lose the parallel port, USB's better for printers and SCSI for scanners. The RTC isn't on the ISA bus, it's part of the CPU chipset. Floppy I don't want to lose, they're too convenient for small things that don't merit burning an entire CD-R for. Serial ports, if I don't have one where am I going to connect the GPS unit for the clock? Or the modem for FAX and fallback if the cable/DSL goes out ( and before you mention PCI internal modems, outline how to power-cycle it without power-cycling the entire computer )? Keyboard and mouse could conveniently go on USB, as long as the BIOS knows how to talk to them during boot, but you probably need a seperate USB bus for them so that stupid USB devices like scanners and Webcams that send lots of data don't lock the keyboard out ( annoying to have a broken scanner hosing the system and you need to kill the process reading from it but you can't because the keyboard can't get bus time because the scanner's hogging it ).
I wouldn't mind losing the ISA bus, as long as I don't lose the devices in the process.
I don't want to lose the ISA and Parallel Ports! (Score:2)
Easy interfacing.
It is super, ultra simple to interface your own custom electronics to the ISA bus or hang them off the parallel port. It is also cheap.
The PCI bus is *hard* to design for, simply because of the speed at which it operates necessitates a quality design from the get-go - you can't just hack a circuit and drop it in, and expect it to work. I have no problem with making it look good, but for most fun things, function overrides form, so to speak.
The only saving factors in all of this have been USB interface chips (which makes it easier to interface to USB ports), and "bigger" microcontrollers (like PICs and BASIC Stamps, among others), which allow you to do a lot of hardware hacking, but in a much smaller and easy to use package.
Of course, I know I am "tilting at windmills" - the ISA bus, serial and parallel ports will be doomed in the end...
Commodity cheaper than fancy (Score:2)
will always be cheaper and more powerful than
something fancy.
I am curious if Microsoft will sell a tablet
computer, e.g. a large, flat touchscreen
with the rest mostly hidden.
Re:PCCards - Firewire? (Score:2)
Most of the problems with hardware in laptops that i've experienced is due to space constraints, motion, heat (due to space), or poor enclosure design leading to flex of various things (mainboards) that shouldn't be flexing.
If you took all the components of a business class laptop, and put them in a tower (you'ld need to get some longer cables) with a nice fan, you'ld still have high cost, and performance issues, but not any problems with reliability