Non-Traditional Career Routes? 422
Dave Bieler asks: "With such
a broad range of interests in science and technology, it was not easy for
me to decide on a major in college. Currently, I am an Electrical
Engineering major at Penn State, however I have considered several other
majors: Computer Science, Computer Engineering, and Physics. Since
science and technology is booming, it may be possible to get into a career
in an area other than that traditionally associated with certain majors. ex -
a Physics major becoming a Computer Security specialist. I'm curious to
hear about any careers that were preceded by non-traditional paths."
Speaking as an Electrical Engineer who decided to drop that and go into
computers, this question strikes a bit of a chord with me. Has anyone
else gone to college intending to prepare for one career, only to fall
into another, either by luck or design?
Yes (Score:1)
Good Question... (Score:3, Insightful)
"What should I major in"
"Is this major better"
"What did you do with your major"
etc...etc...etc...?
I just seems to me that we do. Mod me down, karma cap lets me be like this
Re:Good Question... (Score:2, Insightful)
The point is....get a degree in a field you have interest in, work in that field, if it sucks, leave and go elsewhere. Life doesn't present barriers you can't overcome with enough determination.
Re:Good Question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Consider this:
I majored in computer science. Had a totally futile experience in getting a job in my field. So, I was forced to accept a job with my best friend's mother's company. This is not something I'd normally do (because of pride and friendship concerns), but I gave it a shot. It was a position working in the shipping area of a warehouse. Not a glamorous job.
It worked out fairly well at first. I applied my computing expertise and intuitive skills to fix up all the shipping systems, and as a result I'm now the shipping manager of the company four months after my first day. I'm about due for a performance review, a raise, and a bonus. Plus, I love the people I work with (for the most part) and I don't hate my job.
But...
Not to sound spoiled, but I don't know if there's any real advancement for me in this company. I mean, I might eventually get promoted to being an assistant warehouse manager, or perhaps a program manager in the office, but that doesn't mean I look forward to working a couple of years at both my current and future possible positions. I simply don't see myself going in that direction.
Additionally, our warehouse manager resigned, and now we have an interim warehouse manager that has no idea what technical improvements I've made to these shipping systems. Furthermore, this new manager blames me for random things in front of company VPs, walks away from me when I'm talking to her, and dumps unreal amounts of work into my lap. Sometimes it seems like she doesn't even know what my major was in college.
I would find it easier to program 60 hours a week than to work in a warehouse 60 hours a week, no doubt. The 10 - 11 hour days are wearing me down. I like my job, but I'm not THAT passionate about it.
However, I can't quit. I'm getting shit on and people have said I should quit. But I have to pay rent and car insurance. The job market is that tough such that I can't rely on it to give me a decent job right away. Just last year, I looked 9 months for a job in ANY FIELD and didn't find one. Temp agencies wouldn't employ me... they would rather hire people with business skills than comp-sci skills, I was told. I had to work at Starbucks 40 hours a week to make ends meet. I can't go back to that now.
That's just a personal anecdote, but in times when the economy is sour, it really is hard to switch careers. So I don't blame college students for wanting to hit the nail on the head the first time around. Everyone wants to do that, but with the way things are now, life is a lot easier if you get on the right career path early.
If I had decided to stay near my University and stick to computer science for sure, I'd be making 50% more money and I would have had a job right away. And I may or may not have been miserable with such a choice, but perhaps the money would have made it a sweeter deal. (Of course, I hated my University and the area that it was in, so it's not a regret that I didn't take that path. I'm too much of a city kid.)
And there's nothing that gets you a job or boosts your salary more than being well trained and educated in the field you want to enter. I'm sure all the journalism-major web programmers are finding that out the hard way right now. (Not that there's anything wrong with doing that, but managers and HR execs tend to disagree)
Yes, in a good economy, you have flexibility. But it's hard to have a job that sucks while you wait for the economy to get better. Once again, I don't blame anyone for doing some research to avoid getting stuck in that position. It's a smart thing to do.
Also, computer science as a major can be a messy conglomeration of a lot of different fields and interests (and people), and many people find it hard to find a focused interest in such a ball-breaking major. But that's a whole other story.
Re:Good Question... (Score:2)
When you're at college, whether undergrad or grad school, you have a number or things going in your favor. First of all, everything you need, aside from a job, is definitely within walking distance (or even reachable via free shuttle bus, as the case in my school). Second, universities provide health insurance at a reasonable cost. Third, you can take out loans and/or work for your education, but the fact of the matter is yearly housing, food, and a whole range of expenses are covered rather cheaply or easily here. For less than $20,000 a year, you can survive quite nicely.
For me, out of college, health insurance is expensive, and my job provides it. I don't NEED the car, but then again I'm only paying liability insurance on my old college car (which is falling apart) to save money... and when it dies, I get rides to work and I lose my personal life. I can't afford a decent used car and the cost of insurance in NJ with my current salary. (This is because I was a delivery driver in college, and I paid harshly with several out-of-state tickets for ridiculous offenses given by local cops / university public safety) Without a car I lose access to food and laundry as well. Finally, my rent is twice what it was when I was living off campus senior year of college, and yet is one third of what it would cost to live in NYC across the river - so we have a bargain. My rent costs more than one week of my current salary.
Oh, and by the way, I am NOT well paid. I am in this job because I was desperate for a job. There are no other jobs out there, I looked for 9 months, and when all was said and done my CS education left me with $150 in my pocket 4 months after graduation. This is less than what it costs for a one way plane ticket back home to my parents so I can live with them in their retirement in the boondocks of Florida. Right now I am still making considerably less than most people in programming-related jobs make... even for the really cheapo entry level jobs.
But I'm not in poverty. I'm not rich, but I'm saving money. Later on, when I can actually get a job when this horrid job market passes, I'll consider "following my heart". For now, I'll put food on the table and avoid living with my parents.
Of course, since I'm debt free (college paid with trust fund) and I'm saving up money, I could go get my masters at Rutgers or some other state school really cheaply, take out loans to do it, and go back to living in college La-La Land. Those were the days where it cost $3 to get into a party for unlimited beer and keg stands. Around here, it's $4 for a Coors Light.
Oh, and don't DARE suggest that I move somewhere else. Yes, the cost of living is cheaper in Oklahoma than it is here. I would also commit suicide in Oklahoma. And I probably wouldn't find a job there, either.
Re:Good Question... (Score:2)
Also, I could get an apartment closer to food and laundry. In the city, this would be prohibitively expensive. In the suburbs, this would probably get me an apartment that's not as good for the same rent.
Living in off-campus housing after college... well, that would suck in my case. I hated the area where I went to college. I specifically decided to move back home (the home area I grew up in, not the home my parents moved to) because I missed it and there was an enormous amount of opportunity there. New York is, after all, the biggest city in the US. (Only upstaged by Mexico City on this side of the world) And certainly one of the greatest cities ever. That alone to me validates me for "don't cry me a river" status.
However, this detracts from the original point... in this economy, even with my degree which is rather versatile, and my skills and job experience (both of which are now rather extensive)... it would STILL not be easy for me to switch careers. It would hurt a lot of people right now. Switching careers in the real world is a whole level of magnitude harder than switching majors in college. And it's that much worse in a recession.
I encourage people to switch careers when they feasibly can if they're dissatisfied with their career path so far. A career should not be a trap. But I emphasize... it's not EASY.
Re:Good Question... (Score:2)
I went to a school that had a bunch of spoiled brat rich kids attending, so you can imagine that I've seen a lot of college students that truly don't know what it takes to survive without substantial help and luck.
In your case, you will adjust when the time comes, most likely, as most people do. It isn't quite the same as the HS to Univ transition, because college still shields you from most of the responsibility and challenges that working-class people face. College trains you for those challenges, but it certainly doesn't force you into accepting them. You can actually live through college just like HS if you were a good HS student (one who attended class, took good notes, and could do your own laundry). You don't have to cook every day, and you have far less personal financial responsibility and burden... among other things. But most people can handle it. With a college education, assuming you're not too spoiled at the moment by your family, you'll definitely handle it.
Poor college students are best trained for the real world transition. Rich ones are horribly trained for the real world transition, but usually mommy and daddy pay for their car and apartment for a little while after college, so they have even a cushier time the whole way through.
In any case, good luck with the transition when you come to it. Some people have an easier time than others.
Oh, and yea, the US sucks for out-of-college entry level employees during times of recession. Basically, I'm one of the only people in my class that didn't have to move back home. Had I not accepted this position, I would have had no health care coverage. Unemployment would have given me nothing, since I had only part time jobs prior to this. NYC is particularly cut-throat because of the high cost of living... lunch sandwiches are $6, my car insurance for liability alone is $2300 a year, bars charge $10-$15 cover to get in, city clubs charge $40 to get in, a grande latte is $3.60, my utilities run $85 a month with no long distance calls made (and our water and heat are covered by the landlord, so it would be more if that were not the case), sweaters I wear to work cost $30-$40 apiece, the cell phone runs $40 a month, cable modem runs $40 a month, don't forget bridge/tunnel tolls ($6 to go over the George Washington Bridge), bus fare (soon to be $3 here for one way into NYC), gas and car maintenance, supermarket trips, the occasional fast food ($5 at least for any McDonalds, Burger King, or Wendy's meal), and anything else extravagant. I'm reluctant to get tickets to sporting events, attend concerts, or buy myself cocktails in any club because of the high costs involved. $8 for Red Bull and vodka (CHEAP vodka) is insane.
Most metro areas are better than this. But good luck anyway.
Re:Good Question... (Score:2)
It's hell.
Re:Good Question... (Score:2)
I do all those cheapo/budget things like try to avoid cover charges, make food from scratch (for health reasons as well - "convenience" food has horrible nutritional value), take a cheap bus rather than drive to the city (it does save some money), etc. Granted, living around here is still insanely expensive, but my standard of living rocks. I get what I want and then some. I just have to be responsible and avoid impulsive decisions. And planning and organization goes a long way, including with budgeting and making spending decisions.
You're fairly lucky with your parents being generous like that, but you also seem quite responsible about it. There's nothing wrong with having solid resources, and there's a lot of virtue in being responsible about using those resources. You're definitely doing that, and you'll be set up well for the future.
However, I hate to burst your bubble...
In a less expensive place to live... a 9-to-5 minimum wage job still barely cuts it. 40 hours a week for $5 an hour gets you $200 salary, $150 take home per week. By reasonable spending habits, that means you need living arrangements that cost around or less than $200 a month... the rule of "one week's salary should cover one month's rent".
No joke, that's really hard to find. Anywhere.
Now, it's possible... yet very difficult and sacrificial... to get utilities down to $50 a month, keep food at $100 a month, and forget the idea of a car. That's no microwave food, no cable, no phone, and no life. But it's possible.
Since you take home $150 a week, you get $600 a month. You just blew $350 on living very meagerly. This is having no loans, no credit cards, no upcoming expenses, and probably no health insurance either.
So you get $250 left. For a month. For haircuts, clothes, bus fare, phone calls, etc. Put $100 a month in the bank, and stretch the other $150 really thin.
It's really quite difficult to get a part time job that will let you work 40 hours a week consistently. Most part time jobs I know of will not accomodate this kind of arrangement, especially because they hate to pay overtime. So, you need to be on really good terms with the boss to pull that off.
As far as getting two part time jobs, you run the risk that both will force you to work at the same time. Part time jobs are notoriously bossy like that. But it's possible to try and arrange it such that they never interfere.
If you can get two, hell even three part time jobs, and work 60 hours a week, you bump up your income and you have flexibility when one job decides to cut your hours. (Which they do without even asking, because it's happened to me countless times before I got a REAL job) If you can keep that going, that's about $300 more take home pay per month. That'll all stay in the bank, because you'll have no life anyway. This is crisis management in two ways: you'll be saving considerably more money, and if you decide to quit one job (or get fired, eek), you still have two others to work 40 hours a week at... and you can live on 40 hours a week as demonstrated above.
This is really really hard to arrange properly.
This is also like living as a prisoner.
Also, 60 hours a week of part time work will kill you. The bullshit alone with give you a stroke. 60 hours a week doing minimum wage labor is physically tough... depending on the jobs you take, most people can't handle it.
But the good news is, you can expect better than minimum wage. At least in this country, there's a wide range of full-time work, with benefits, available for up to $9 an hour to start... with raises in the future. Americans are quite spoiled like that. And furthermore, one full-time job is usually far less strenuous than 3 part time jobs. Pays more, too. That doesn't change the fact that you have to live like a prisoner if you want to save money and not go into debt, but after a while life gets better.
People who do this usually don't get anywhere in the world, and it's sad to see these people living at home with their parents and blowing all their money on stupid shit... and it's a lot of money to blow when you're making that much AND you don't have to pay rent. Living in America, the media always pushes you to spend even MORE, as well. Life just isn't good without a nice car, designer clothes, and a vacation every two months. (Or so they make it seem)
That's why the people who whine about their lifestyle are usually the last people who should be whining. But on the flipside, living on minimum wage is nearly impossible for a single person supporting his/herself only. And it's a house of cards that can easily collapse and send you into welfare, even homelessness.
And in America, it's REALLY hard to come back from that. (Yes, even with the Democrats)
I won't apply this to all situations... in Iowa, the cost of living may be cheap enough to pull this off. In Canada, money might go a lot farther. But here, in NYC, there's a lot of people just barely making it with these lifestyles, and a lot of people living off government subsidies, and a lot of people sleeping in churches. Which is why it's that hard to swallow when someone in college (of all places) thinks that "yea, it can be done". I mean, no offense, but from what I've seen, people in college never have to touch that kind of life, and really don't know anything about it. (Hell, I don't know about it either, I just work hard to stay out of it)
(I'll never forget when one of my peers in CS... in an ethics class... pompously stated that there's no excuse for anyone not to have a computer anymore, because they're only $500. I hated that fucking ethics class.)
Re:Good Question... (Score:2)
Trust funds and college loans have the same effect... to pay off college now so you don't have to worry about it now.
The difference is, paying it back later. With a trust fund you don't have to, but then you're out the money. With a college loan... yecch.
I say yecch because trust funds didn't cover it all, and I have a minimal loan to repay. However, it's an extra $100 a month in expenses, and that's icky when you're looking at $600 a month disposable income after rent, utilities, and food. Shoehorning car payments, car maintenance, various bills, savings, and personal spending into that leftover budget is already kinda constricting. That extra $100 is noticed. That's money that could have went to a retirement fund.
Then again, I won't even pretend to know what it's like to have a loan that's 2 to 3 times the size of the one I took out. And at least I have a job.
Anyway, back on topic...
With college, you pay tuition and room and board, and you have an entire life for yourself. With a spartan lifestyle, you can make a little go a long way. This doesn't quite work out the same in the real world... a regular apartment's rent is usually way more expensive than college housing. Not everything is in walking distance. There's the problem of health insurance. All I'm saying is, students get quite a deal. If you have to take loans out for that, it sucks later on... but it's a nice thing to be able to get loans to go live the college life for 4 years and not really have to worry about shit in the meantime. (relatively speaking)
Oh yea, in the real world, 20k takehome pay ain't shit. However, 20k a year for in-state tutition would get me a very posh lifestyle if I had to go back to college.
Re:Good Question... (Score:4, Funny)
It can explain
- Choosing a career path
- Why Microsoft sucks
- Selecting an OS for music applications
- Why Microsoft is the evil empire
- Why we don't need any more programming langauges when Perl/Pyhton/Java/etc are perfectly OK
- Why Microsoft is evil
- Which open-source license is the One True License
- Why Bill Gates is the devil
- Where to find goat sex
- ... and all those other things that appear on
/. every month.
Sounds like a bestseller, at least on fatbrain.comRe:Good Question... (Score:2, Insightful)
I started out as an Electrical Engineering major. Around my Junior year, I started loosing the drive and was getting burnt out. I took a year off for a CO-OP where I did both EE and CS work. It gave me some time to decompress from my 20-22 hour academic schedule and I decided that I wanted to write software for a living. I finished up my EE degree, while taking CS classes where I could fit them and interviewed with CS Consulting firms. My take on engineering is that it is problem solving with fixed set of tools. This is true with mechanical, chemical, structural, electrical, and software engineering. By getting a EE degree, I have a wide breadth of knowledge than a CS major, but I quickly surpassed many CS majors in computer and programming knowledge, just by applying myself at work.
It worked great for me and I really enjoy what I'm doing now.
Why not a Neopolitan degree? (Score:2)
Why don't schools let one get a degree in say electrical engineering, computer sci, and psychology. True, you may not get deep into any one of them, but that is better than getting deep into something you may never use and never touching in school what you do use.
Get Modern, you school beaurocrats!
Re:Why not a Neopolitan degree? (Score:2)
I know plenty of dual, even triple majors. The school I'll be attending in the fall (Carnegie Mellon) is notorious for them. It's just that a lot of people don't want to take that many classes ;)
I wasn't under the impression that was unique to CMU. I've never heard of a school not offering a degree to someone who has fulfilled the requirements because they already had another degree- that's absurd.
Re:22 hours of class? (Score:2)
70%? (Score:1)
That seems pretty accurate based on what's happened with the people I know. Of course, this could be one of those 80% of statistics that are made up on the spot...
History (Score:2)
I've found that I work best in environments where I'm given an assortment of tasks and left to my own devices. I spend a majority of my time on RM, but I also act as my boss's "go-to" guy. It's really nice 'cause it gives me leave to operate somewhat outside the normal chain of command in our engineering organization (I'm not senior to, say, the development lead, but I'm not *under* them, either).
Not sure if this would work outside of a mid-size startup, but it's something I enjoy. And it has very little to do with 19th century west-central Wisconsin farm communities.
Re:History (Score:2)
Anyone know of any paths History majors should take? Or should I just find a job that requires a degree and go w/that?
Re:History (Score:3, Informative)
Consider quantitative finance. I have a BS in Mathematics and a MS in Materials Engineering. Currently I work on Wall St along with many other engineers/physicists. We do more computer programming and mathematical modeling than any engineering job that I've held prior to this. One advantage is that Matlab/Unix/Linux is very prevalent in quantitative finance. The technical skills that you learn with an engineering background are very helpful in a field such as this.
Another place where an engineering degree helps is Law. I've heard that it is *very* easy to get into law school with an engineering degree. There's not enough technical attornies, but there is definetely a need for them, especially in patent law. I have a friend who was studying chemical engineering at my school as an undergrad. He went on to law school and is doing well as a patent attorny.
Although I can't speak about patent law, I do know that quantitative finance is very challenging and interesting. It involves more problem solving and analytical thinking than even the best engineering jobs that I've seen.
kudos for EE for being cool like that (Score:2)
Poli Sci to Computers (Score:1)
In chatting with other poli sci grads, I found that a suprising number work in computer fields...
Don't let anyone fool you - poli sci is a worthless degree...
Re:Poli Sci to Computers (Score:3, Insightful)
That's like saying that pre-med courses are useless, 'cause you can't do anything with just it. Poli sci degrees need some grad work to be useful.
I've seen several people use it as a starting point for some quite interesting careers.
Re:Poli Sci to Computers (Score:2)
...or you can drop out of college and become the richest man in the world.
Big deal, you can't reasonably dole out advice based on a few one in a million people who, due
to luck or inate talent get ahead. I had a friend that dropped out in the 8th grade and by the time I started college was already making more money than my parents, but nobody can expect things like that to happen. It's like buying lotto tickets and expecting to win.
Every time these stories come up, there's always a string of "I said FTM, and left the oppressive accademic environment and now I'm working my dream job" but how do we know they wouldn't have done better had they stuck with their education? I'm sure those that dropped out, failed and regreted it aren't so quick to brag about their experiences.
The fact remains that universities haven't yet completely become trade schools. While your young and have no real responsibilities (house payment, family, etc) you should take the time and get the most from the experience. If your interests are in two completely different fields, go ahead and get a double major or multiple minors; you'll never have the freedom to do so again without sacrfices. (IE, the orignal poster, because of the overlap of the subjects, would have no problem majoring in EE & Physics with a CS minor (or you could just pick up an MS in math, making all those fields 'trivial applications) adding an extra 2yr tops to the total time in school). Or maybe an EE/Phyics degree then graduate CS program. If you've got what it takes to be an exception to formal learning, you should have no problem comming up with with a good plan.
From science that is art to art that is science (Score:1)
Currently, I am taking some time off to pursue more "traditional" skills. Partly because I'm curious, partly because it's a bit of a rarity for 'normal people' and/or nerds like us to get into these fields
I'm taking some blacksmithing courses, and am signing up for a small-engine repair class later next month.
Diversify, baby
More people move into CS (Score:2, Insightful)
I had much the same problem deciding a major while in college. I ended up going for an ECE (Computer Engineering) degree. Its really a mix of CS and EE which worked great for me.
Re:More people move into CS (Score:2)
I mean, software development isn't CS in any sort of academic sense. There are many entry-points to software development, 'cause it's a discipline that requires what are basically technical skills and understanding of a set of concepts. It's not CS, it's not EE, etc.
Re:More people move into CS (Score:2)
You can go into almost any field with an engineering degree. Engineering is in practice what Liberal Arts is in theory, it equips you with generic problem solving skills, enables you to develop your own heuristics and conduct your own research. Unlike Liberal Arts, you also get the quantitative grounding necessary to actually implement and prove, whenever that's necessary.
I have a Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering, my first job was at an ISP, then management consulting, and now I work in the financial services industry. I find also that Engineering, Maths and Physics graduates are much more in demand for any sort of technical or quantitative work than CS graduates, even in computing.
lines of work (Score:3, Insightful)
But I met my wife, moved to the city where she lived and needed something to do. Pursuing a doctorate in her city would have been problematic (Ask me about in-state school rivalries sometime you want an earful.) so I went in to law school, figuring if I made it out I could do wills and real estate transactions.
While there, I worked on the college's computers. This wasn't a big leap since I had been using and playing with computers since I was making sprites move on my old Commodore 64 and figuring out how to cheat at Jumpman. I turned that part time student job into a full time job and dropped out of law school.
So that's the story of how a guy who used to have the tale type index numbers memorized now sets up webservers, writes code for a Novell network, and when needed does helldesk.
zerg (Score:2)
You'll be all set for a career in telecom, computers, power industry, physics, applied research, math, & I'm sure there's other stuff. Plus you won't be a boring know nothing and knowing another language helps you have adventures (job, career, contract, etc.) in other countries.
Physics is too damn narrow, and the goal of computer science is to eliminate computer scientists. With an engineering degree you can't go wrong.
Re:zerg (Score:2)
Physics apparently doens't apply to the Manhattan area =) I meant no insult, that's just been my experience so far.
Re:zerg (Score:2)
Also many ppl i know (and me included) who aren't planning to go into achedemia all have double majors like physics/finance physics/math, etc where it gives us a huge leg up on the plain finance majors.
---
Ok with that aside, in response to the actual question:
Don't be afraid to double/triple major. It's not terribly hard to double major and finish in 4 years if you really put your mind to it. Also if you plan to double major, then hit relativstic electrodynamics (or whatever) and realize you hate that subject, then drop one of them and you're still fine. And have the satisfaction that you tried it and realized you didn't like it. Better than the "what if i had chosen..." thoughts 10 yrs from now.
Imho going into CS/CompE will limit your choices vs. going Physics or EE. It's much much easier to cross over from the engineering side than from the CS side. As a EE you won't be as good as a CS graduate, but if you're smart and very good there certainly will be many opportunities for you in computer-related fields.
Re:zerg (Score:2)
I have two EE degrees, only use them at parties. (Score:2)
For the most part, I get the satisfaction of knowing in intimate detail how most things electrical work. Sometimes it even impresses women at parties who have had too much to drink.
I guess the bottom line is, if your enjoy the subject matter, stick with it. If you can accomplish finishing that degree, you can do almost anything.
Too much focus on majors nowadays anyway... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have a physics degree, and I work with XML developing a web solution for insurance companies. I find that day-to-day, I use none of the specific knowledge I gained as a physicist, but every day I use the problem-solving skills, observation skills, etc., that I gained.
Colleges and universities will need to learn that there's only so much they can do, and that education continues when the student receives their sheepskin.
Re:Too much focus on majors nowadays anyway... (Score:3, Interesting)
Even _with_ extensive personal contacts and 10 years of experience doing things very similar to what employers want, plus a computer science degree, they aren't interested. Rather they want the certification course and degree program of the hour.
Colleges and universities are in league with the HR departments. Need to break the cycle at _both_ ends. Oh, and the software/hardware companies that sell expensive certifications are in league with all of the above. I wouldn't mind the certifications scam if they actually seemed to serve the greater good, but of course it's not valid to expect philanthropy from corporations. Hail to the almighty dollar.
There's been a distinct cultural shift against accepting intelligence and a proven background learning new technologies quickly, and towards only accepting specific training, as if the people hiring have never encountered anyone who learned "by the seat of the pants". Most likely because they themselves learned through some kind of coursework.
Re:Too much focus on majors nowadays anyway... (Score:2)
Why then would you ever expect to use specific knowledge from your degree? You studied physics and then went into computing and insurance? The fields aren't even close.
I majored in computer science and artificial intelligence (double major) and am now an analyst programmer who uses the specific knowledge he gained in his course daily. You can't expect a uni degree in one area to provide you with specific knowledge in a different area.
I do agree with you though that general problem solving skills and reasoning is more important than specific knowledge, however every problem area requires a slightly differently tuned approach to it and so area specific knowledge is required. Completing a general degree will not stand most people in good stead to achieve in specific areas - which computing is one. I would not try to apply my computing experience and reasoning to brick laying (brick reuse is not a good idea), I would go out and read up on specific knowledge about brick laying.
Without area specific knowledge you cannot achieve anything significant. Without knowledge and reasoning, you cannot easily acquire area specific knowledge. Don't discount either.
Re:Too much focus on majors nowadays anyway... (Score:2)
Libraries need techies (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Libraries need techies (Score:2)
I think I'm on the side of the librarians. What is the interest of a corporation in a library? Selling something, getting present and future customers.
A library is a neutral site. The "Exxon Library of St. Louis"... does this ring anyone's alarm bells?
A corporate takeover of media is in progress, and this administration is about to eliminate all rules regarding corporate ownership of... well, everything with words, sounds or video.
What has been the result so far of this wonderful corporate experiment?
CNN and MS-NBC are racing neck and neck to become Fox News. Middle-of-the-road political views have been relabeled "liberal/left" and have disappeared from everything, from Politically Incorrect to CBS News. Or at least are set up to be minimalized by careful selection of viewpoints and reportage. Evidently the head of GE leaned on the NBC election coverage staff to call the election for Bush. Limbaughites have spread out through executive positions throughout the corporate media world, and have performed well -- Bush gets no criticism for outrageous actions. look what he just did for Haliburton! Saved his VP's company from Enroning yesterday by changing the liability laws!
After the complete conquest of the media world, the next step to finish is the rightification of the schools, and the libraries, and the universities...
So, if the librarians are resistant to a right-wing, well, let's call it what it is, takeover of the free libraries by corporate partnerships, it may be because they are highly intelligent people who know a shotgun when it is pointed at their heads. Corporate "sponsorship" has changed PBS and NPR dramatically, and I'd guess that the corps holding the purse strings of libraries would have no problem "balancing" the views expressed on the shelves, or enforcing new ideas about copyright and fair use.
Corps don't have consciences, and librarians do.
Pick your major based on what you want to learn (Score:2)
I decided to pursue a Physics major, because it's something I find really interesting. Although I used to toss around the idea of becoming a CS major while I was in high school, I quickly realized that I would hate the schooling. And, after all, college isn't just to prepare you for the "rest of your life." It's four years (or thereabouts) out of your life; you might as well get as much out of it as possible.
What employers really seem to want is experience, not a specific degree. If you want to do something like this, jsut make sure you get some experience before finishing college. Having a major in another field will only increase the number of things you can do. And employers like that.
Re:Pick your major based on what you want to learn (Score:2)
Same here (Score:2)
Eventually I'd like to optain a position that uses both of my skills areas. Some of combination working with a design team and the IT department. I don't even know what you would call such a position or if it even exists. Ideas?
What I did ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thats when I realized something very interesting.
I had taken 4 years of Spanish in highschool, a year in 8th grade, and a few summer plus program classes. When I started classes I was offered to start in a 300 lvl spanish class. I took Grammer 210 to be safe and went from there. What was sweet was that I got retro active credits from Span 101 up to 210. I got 18 credit hours for the price of 3. I then found what I wanted to major in: Spanish.
Now, before you laugh, let me point out that I realize this: It is like majoring as undecided. With a major in spanish, and then I can minor in whatever, including another language, the sky is the limit. Lets say I get burned out on computer shit and just want to use them in my free time - well, with a comp sci degree, that would be too bad so sad. With a language degree, especially in Spanish, I can get a job really anywhere. If I want to work for Boeing, Sprint, etc. I am in like flint. If I want to work for FBI, CIA, etc. I just need to minor in Criminal Justice. Even then, Its not a requirement. If I want to work in the tech sector, I am fine there with a degree and my tech experience.
If all else fails - you will find me teaching for my alma mater for $25k a year (in KS - that goes far) and summers off
I know someone who's done this (Score:2)
He came to the company with HTML and JavaScript knowledge, focused on the stuff his major was in, and picked up what he needed to do more development.
hey, you stayed narrow . . . :) (Score:2)
THree Mile Island happened, nearly all reactor orders were cancelled, and the Nuclear Engineering Division of GE didn't send anyone to take the two graduate classes I needed for the degree (and they weren't going to offer them for a single undergraduate
I answered the Navy's ad for nuclear engineers, but they diverted me to fly--but I have no coordeination, so I got an honorable discharge and a plain ticket home.
I'd enjoyed the limited legal analysis in the Naval Law class, and chose law school over a Ph.D. in aviation engineering.
After five years of that, I landed back in graduate school for a Ph.D. in Econ, and ended up leaving with a degree jointly in econ and stat . . .
Most people don't move this much, but take the courses/major that interestyou. As long as you have enough math, you can pretty much move from anything to anything--but it really helps to learn your calculus and linear algebra young.
hawk
Re:Spelling and Grammar Corrections (Score:2)
Generally--it's the past perfect, indicating a completed action.
It can lead to problems, though: I had a legal writing paper come back with "p.v." all over it, so I took it back to the instructor to ask what that meant.
"Passive voice. You're not supposed to use that."
2 things: 1) You are supposed to *avoid*, not never use, the passive voice (but I left this out, as it seemed beyond her.)
2) "That's the past perfect,not the passive."
"tee-hee. I always had trouble telling those apart."
I managed to supress the groan . . .
hawk, now trying to figure out if the abbreviation for Amanda is 'manda or 'Manda . . .
Re:Spelling and Grammar Corrections (Score:2)
>running thru your head all day...
Over my dead body!
We almost didn't name her Amanda over concern that she might be called Mandy . . . And I've threatened a friend or two who started to use it . . .
As Johny Fever noted, there's a place for Barry Manilo, but it's not on the publoic airwaves . . .
hawk
Personally (Score:2)
It's been quite a trip, but I can assure you it's not a very unsual one. There's a red line. Or, if you wish, an eternal golden braid [amazon.com].
Physics--Wall St (Score:3, Interesting)
So I switched gears entirely and took up quantitative finance, and I'm now working on a trading desk doing modeling and risk management.
Kind of an unusual route, but that's the advantage of physics - it gives you a broad background in math and problem-solving that you can apply to lots of different fields.
Other people in my engineering physics class have gone on to do aerospace engineering, law, business school, programming, architecture, and lots of other stuff.
So: do physics. It's fun, suitably geeky, and it opens lots of doors for the future.
Mathematics-programming (Score:2)
I don't use my degrees, although the thinking skills are really useful. After all, writing sound code consists largely of asking "What could go wrong here, and what's the least restriction I can put on my code that will prevent it?" That's essentially the same skill that one uses in proving a theorem. It reduces your error count a lot, and time spent not fixing errors in thinking is time spent improving the feature set.
So major in math -- it's infinitely geeky, you can dress as strangely as you like, and it's loads of fun.
Ability is what counts... (Score:4, Interesting)
Pick something fun to study at university (or "major in" if you're in America), then pick something that pays well when you graduate. Don't ever expect your degree to be relevant to your job. FWIW, we routinely hire engineering/science grads over CS for both s/w development and junior trading jobs.
"Business majors" generally end up working for HR...
Re:Ability is what counts... (Score:2)
Re:Ability is what counts... (Score:2)
Don't ever expect your degree to be relevant to your job.
I'll second this. So long as it's a technical subject (i.e. any of the sciences) and you get a Bachelor of Science degree out of it, the actual topic matters little in my experience. FAR more important are basic business skills (showing up on time, delivering what you promise, communicating your progress back to your bosses, helping coworkers when they need it, accepting help when needed, etc. etc.)
If you plan on doing hard-core development, (i.e. acoustic analysis, cryptography, writing an OS/database, or other computationally challenging work) then a good collection of CS courses will probably help. If you're just going to be adding purple icons to MegaCorp(TM)'s newest brain spasm then you really don't need to have a complete understanding of the optimal algorithm to sort massive arrays of data. :-)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
1. Are more used to solving real-world rather than virtual problems;
2. See the computer as a means to an end, not an end in itself.
I'd cross a bridge built by a physics grad. I wouldn't breathe on one built by a CS...
Quite honestly... (Score:4, Interesting)
Park ranger in Yellowstone park, maybe!
No more late night calls, beeps or "gotta fix the server ASAP!" Emails. No more lost sleep, hurried meetings or pissed off customers...
"Please don't feed the bears." :-D
Do what you enjoy (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Do what you enjoy (Score:2)
Success = a good attitude and a capacity to learn (Score:3, Interesting)
The only common thread through these last twelve years has been a good attitude and a commitment to learn. I look for those qualities in everyone I hire. My staff includes ex-grade school teachers and philosophy majors, and all are doing well!
Helevius
Two stable professions (Score:2)
Re:Two stable professions - Actually I should have (Score:2)
Career? (Score:5, Informative)
In my view, few of us has any idea what we are going to be doing twenty years from now. We don't know which industries will be big, which will fail, or which all-new fields will be open by then. Especially at college age, you don't know what you will still like to do in ten or twenty years time (when you get upwards of forty, you start having a pretty good idea about it, though).
The way to choose your major is really to take two criteria into account: what subjects do you actually like; and what subjects will give you a broad enough foundation to be able to keep on choosing your path many years from now.
Majoring in something you really dislike just because there's plenty of jobs, because your family expects it, or because it carries with it an aura of status is a huge mistake. You might be doing that stuff for most of your life - do you really want to be unhappy with your job for most of your working career?Chances are you'll drop out - either at college or later - so you might as well choose something you actually like instead.
Getting a broad, foundational education is just as important. Sure, being a trained Cisco engineer pays a lot of money right now, but will it still do so in fifteen years? And what if you want to change to something else? The basic sciences are a good choice: physics, math, computer science, chemistry - they all tend to be useful almost no matter what you decide you want to do with your life later on.
Me, I waffled between Computer Science and Literature. I took CS and mathematics, and I haven't regretted it. Do I work as a programmer? No (though I might go back to that again in a year or two).
/Janne
Re:Career? (Score:2)
You are actually choosing your subjects based
on a future career? That's interesting.
In my view, few of us has any idea what we are going to be doing twenty years
from now.
Exactly. Technological progress continues to accelerate at an exponential rate.
Therefor, you should focus your studies on the eternal principles instead
of learning only of today's technology. For example, instead of only worrying
about the syntactical details of a handful of computer
programming languages, try to focus on the theory of computer languages. Get
a bigger perspective by including studies of human linguistics, from Chomsky
to current thought. Try to analyze the computer languages that are
the fads of today, in terms of their weak points and future failings. Include
a greater emphasis on mathematics and statistics then is usually found in
the modern curricula. As an exercise into obtaining insight, imagine
technical events leading up to the [singinst.org]
Singularity (or the failure of said Singularity to occur).
Yes, getting your degree may take longer, so this becomes a mattter of economic
feasibility. Perhaps you should just plan on going through to your
Master's degree (almost always justifiable from an economic standpoint),
and not necessarily in the exact same field as your undergraduate degree.
As an undergrad, I was an EE (before there was even a computer engineering
program at my school), who took many extra classes in computer science, mathematics,
and other engineering disciplines. I took an overloaded schedule, and
five years to complete. I took my graduate degree at Dartmouth College,
Thayer School of Engineering [dartmouth.edu],
the only school to my knowledge that offers a department-free engineering
curricula resulting in a degree in Engineering Science.
The major's not important, the Diploma IS (Score:2)
That and I didn't want to build something that might fall over and KILL someone.
Computers were always a passion, but I didin't take CS because I didn't want to hear some Grad Student tell me I was wrong.
So I got a job writing Software for Civil Engineeers. It used my background, and got me doing something I liked. Then that job migrated to Network Administration, then Website design. (Now it's moving back into Enterprise server design and Security Analysis....now THERE'S a job that's not going away any time soon!)
I'm not unusual. LOTS of people get jobs that have nothing to do with their major. The BS piece of paper shows that you're CAPABLE of learning, and have learned the discipline to do so.
That aside, ANY Engineering degree will be worth more than a Psychology degree. (The most popular and easiest to get piece of paper at CSU.)
Geography (Score:2)
From there, Cartography was being taken over by GIS (Geographic Information Systems), which is CAD and databases hooked together. http://www.esri.com is the big name in GIS, for the curious.
Throw in all the various jobs I worked to pay for college like river guide, carpenter, housepainter, bus driver, writer.... Took me till age 27 to finish college because I never received any aid, and I never liked the school loans program. (Sorry, but a loan is not aid.) So I traded off longer school and the ability to have lodgning and food for no debt.
From GIS it's a short leap to learning how to manage the computers, to my current job of computer consultant and programmer.
Your birth is your starting point, and fate has some destination in mind for you. Don't take the direct route. Some people do, and they stay in the same job for 50 years and retire happy.
It's the journey, not the destination.
Mathematician turned Software Developer (Score:2, Insightful)
Needless to say, I thought I was destined for a career as a mathematician. During my second semester in college, I took an introductory course in C because I thought it would be interesting. I wanted to learn more about programming since computers were a hobby for me.
A few weeks into the course, I learned that I had a knack for programming. I think it satisfied a primal urge I had to read, learn, and build new things. After this realization, I decided to become a double major in mathematics and computer science. I must say I have not regretted this decision once.
My former love has now become my hobby and my former hobby has become my love. I would have never imagined that this would happen. To anyone debating whether or not they should change majors, I say follow whatever your instinct tells you. You can always tack on another major or just switch completely. You will regret it if you do not follow what you truly desire.
ME (Score:2)
Here's A Great Idea (Score:5, Funny)
Wait a minute...
Shit. Nevermind.
Liberal arts. (Score:2)
The nice thing about working for a college is that most offer tuition waivers; which means that, if things continue on the schedule they are right now, I will have a BS in Computer Science in a couple of years and be able to move into a better paying (and more interesting) development role.
Please note that this is probably not the best way to make a lot of money; support jobs are hardly the path to wealth. But if you ask anyone who has worked at a college before, the work environment and low stress are a wonderful benefit.
--saint
Don't worry about it (Score:3, Interesting)
Most of the really hot-shot computer folks I know have degrees in English, or psychology. Just because that was interesting to them, and then they wound up working in computers.
Myself, i went to art school and have a degree in fine arts. Not useful for computers, but I don't think many poeple "learn" computers in college anyways. I was doing illustration and comic books, then wound up doing a lot of computer graphics (because it pays well) and now here i am working for NASA doing research for medical uses of technology. Each career step was perfectly logical for the choices and opportunities I had available.
This next year I'll be going to Kenya, Brazil, and possibly Afghanistan for work, and there's no way anyone could have pictured this career path back when i was in my first painting class debating what kind of canvas to use.
Don't sweat your major, study what interests you, and get a degree in anything. Having 4 years of focused work is all that a degree means. You're going to learn everything on the job that you need to know -- from your peers, and books in your own time.
Re:Don't worry about it (Score:2)
I'm assuming a fair bit here, but I'd bet that most of them studied English or psychology because IT degrees weren't around when they went to University. You have to remember that computers haven't been mainstream for all that long. I happen to fit into the age group that saw the introduction of computers as a widespread tool. I grew up using computers, but there was only one other kid in the district that had done the same.
What this means is that when you find anyone above the age of 30 (and often younger) they most likely didn't grow up with computers and have changed over from some other area. That's not a bad thing, but you shouldn't nessecarily expect that you can still do that kind of thing as easily as they did. Now we have readily available supplies of people who actually trained in IT so why would you hire an English major as a code monkey?
The caveat here though, is that you shouldn't take advice from the youngun's (like me) because they really don't have any experience as to what the market place is after. The reality is that IT has gone and changed so fast that noone really knows what the best way to get into it is at this point in time. I would tend to agree with the people who are recommending doing what you enjoy - but don't just sit back and enjoy it, work hard, get good marks and always look for opportunities to learn more.
Re:Don't worry about it (Score:2)
Not necessarily the case. In the early '80s a friend of mine switched from Computer Science to Psychology because he was real interested in doing real-time work, and there was more interesting realtime work being done in the psychology department than in Computer science.
Granted -- now you could get up to your eyeballs in Real-time working with the robotics group in most any large Computer Science department -- but as the earlier poster said: Look at what you're interested in, and then find the department that will best support you in that.
If you follow your heart, and find the niche that fulfills your love, you can almost always make money and live a fulfilled life. If you follow the money and find a way to fit into an ill-suited niche, you may or may not make money, but you probably won't be happy at it -- and the unhappiness will limit your potential in that field.
Yep; EE - CSC (Score:2)
So, I just graduated as an EE and got a CSC job! You barely learn anything in college anyway, the majority of education happens when you start working. For me, at least. And, I self-educate myself quite a bit too. Classes really cater to those who can't teach themselves, at least in my experience...
Is it a university or a trade school (Score:2, Insightful)
Not too many schools seem to take that approach, and it's really sad, because universities shouldn't be trade schools. The goal of getting a bachelor's degree should be broad learning, mostly learning how to learn, actually.
If you're concerned about exactly what you're learning, I strongly suggest that you re-examine your priorities. Sure, you'll probably want to focus some of your energy on learning methodologies that are helpful in your intended field. But what you really want to do is learn how to learn.
It's a sad reality, though, that specialists are more highly regarded and paid than generalists.
I'm a hiring manager for software developers. As such, My favorite degree for someone to have is a generalist engineering/science degree with a focus/minor in CS. Second would be a CS degree, followed by CS/EE and EE alone. My experience is that people who chose specifically to learn the science of programming while in school are more likely to be good programmers than those who chose to focus solely on EE, Physics, etc.
Generally speaking though, I doubt that this is because they learned about CS in school. I think it's just that good programmers are more likely to seek out such degrees than they are to seek out degrees in Physics, etc.
I don't mean this as an insult to those people. Many of them are "brilliant" programmers. They can hack with the best of us. But, frankly, programming is almost the smallest part of being a software engineer. Design and debugging will take up much more of your time in real life (the more of the former you do, the less of the latter you will have to do in general).
Hell, some places, meetings will take up more of your time, which just goes to show that people skills are important even for geeks.
I suppose I'd have to say that for the high tech computer industry, CS/EE would be the degree that's most likely to be offered by your school that is the most flexible and most transferrable to other areas. At least, it's probably the most likely to get you interviews.
What you do at that interview is really what will determine whether you get hired, though. Learn to be witty and urbane. Learn to think outside the box. Learn how to read documentation and find obscure solutions in it. Learn to be arrogant about your ability to learn anything anywhere (just be sure not to be "arrogant without cause" :-). Those things will help you a lot more than learning to program or design circuits.
Animal Science? (Score:2, Funny)
A degree of ignorance (Score:2)
I'm British. Sorry about that.
Anyway, we're very lucky in Britain that employees are not quite as concerned about what your degree is in. It is not considered essential to have an MBA to work as an investment banker, or a computer science degree to work as a programmer.
I speak from experience: I 'majored' in Philosophy, became an investment banker, and dabble in programming. (Not bad for a man with a lower second...)
People should look at their degree as their last chance to enjoy themselves and do something they may not be able to ever do again. Use your degree as an opportunity as a chance to expand your horizons, not as a launch pad for a career.
At the end of the day, you can always learn to be programmer or a networking specialist: and your degree may not be the best place to learn those skills.
Just my ha'pennys worth.
My so-called career (Score:2)
In 1995, I got a couple of temp jobs for a lousy wage (five quid an hour) doing basic data entry stuff. One job entailed moving Lotus 123 files into Excel: they turned out to contain macros, so I taught myself VBA from the manual and help files. Already knew about Linux and the Net from a kernel-compiling friend, and realised HTML was too simple to make a career out of; did some digging, and picked perl to learn over Java and tcl (which looked like the best bets for future net programming languages.) After a couple of years I'd tripled my salary and was learning as much as possible about networking and security - I thought the Net boom would bust fairly soon, and reckoned those would be good (and more importantly, interesting) areas to get into.
Alas I timed things wrong: employer went bust last summer leaving me stranded on the dole. I'm in the classic "can't get the fist info-sec job without prior experience" Catch-22.
Of course, five years of practice & experimentation on my home network, plus
getting as involved as possible in sec issues everywhere I worked, obsessively
reading Bugtraq, Incidents, SANS, CERT, nanog etc lists, Northcutt/Novak, Garfinkel/Simson, Cryptome, yadda yadda, doesn't count for much when their are MSc - qualified people with 5 years solid security work and a CISSP out there looking as well. [ Ob Begging: Gissa job, anyone? (London, UK.) ]
Classics to Comp Sci (Score:2, Insightful)
The point is that you should study what you love. Learning how to learn and how to synthesize disparate solutions into a single elegant answer or how to even approach a new problem is more valuable than learning a language or getting other easy-to-acquire technical skills. Save that for your spare time. If a company is convinced that you can intelligently solve problems, the fact that you have a Physics degree rather than a Comp Sci should not matter. Just remember that the important things to learn in Computer Science is the theory, which you can usually learn through books. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to learn specific languages or programs; those are tools, not skills.
Russell Ahrens
Re:Classics to Comp Sci (Score:2)
What, do you mean Civ2 or Civ1?
I have known many students who spent many hours on Civ, I never heard of any getting course credit for it, still less majoring in it. Cool!
Education, Career, Job: my 25 years of perspective (Score:2, Interesting)
It's very important to get a degree, any degree, but if your degree is in CS or Math or Heuristics or even (something non technical like) music it will mean little difference to someone who hires you to build a network, create an application, or run a server farm.
The biggest correlations between field-of-study and job lie in academics and professions like law and medicine and other obvious routes that have defined academic prereqs.
My advice: study what you enjoy studying and get any degree(s) until it's no longer fun. When it's time to find work look for something you feel is fun to work on. If the two don't match you'll figure out how to make it happen, because it's fun and you want to.
Simplistic, but true. But Whaddo I know?
Enjoy.
DB
Careers, college, and the Pigeonhole Principle (Score:2)
Many people ended up programming based on these forces. When there is a scarcity, employers tend not to care much about your degree (the recent dot-boom was an extreme example of this phenomena). But inversely, the number of jobs for physics majors per se has always been far less than the number of people competing for them.
Mathematically, it's the Pigeonhole Principle [umist.ac.uk]. Small numbers of jobs and large numbers of people chasing them lead to many people not getting the jobs. So they go elsewhere by necessity. It's that simple. See what a math education gets you ...
Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org) [sethf.com]
One story, perhaps relevant... (Score:5, Insightful)
Then they screwed up. I was lumped into an "experimental" program that rushed a bunch of us through first year Physics in the first semester, first year Chemistry in the second semester, all in Freshman year. Six months later, few of us could recall much Physics. It didn't help that the Math Department used a different symbology from the Science Departments, either. Long story short, I told them where they could stick their rushed Sciences program (the faculty there had decided that this wholesale abuse of students was the proper response to Russia's Sputnik - after discussing the matter for about ten years). But I still had them on the hook for the full four-year scholarship.
I graduated in Philosophy after _finally_ writing the thesis that this particular school required of all Bachelors candidates. Along the way, I played some poker and some pool (I'm still almost good), hit some decent parties with a few stunning women (my friends didn't know how I managed that), used and lightly dealt drugs among friends, rode a nice motorcycle, traded roommates to share a dorm room with my girlfriend, read and wrote about Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, Kant, Marx, etc.; that was a great time.
[To all you young guys in college now: while it's a different era, be really good to the first girls you date at school, I mean _very_ nice, if you get the chance and get my drift. At my college, the ladies restroom in the Library had two lists on the wall: a Green List, and a Black List. I got on the Green List, so I met lots of women while I was there.]
The school had an IBM 1401 computer with a Fortran compiler. The Physics Department was still trying to figure out how to use it for anything instructional. As I recall, they assigned us to calculate a pendulum equation, in Fortran, using punch cards, not realizing that the trig and log functions had been broken by Seniors before graduation. It was also understood that most guys would end up working in the Defense establishment, but I wasn't very enthusiastic about building bombs, no matter what the salary.
Summer before my Senior year, I got a job mounting tapes for a local service bureau on second shift. They had a Honeywell 200, 4' high X 4' wide X 20' long, 32K magnetic core memory, a card-reader and an optical-tape reader for input, 5 X 1600 bpi tape drives, no disk drives whatsoever, but a line printer. Well, I learned how to program it, hacked a datecard loading routine in H200 Assembly language, plus logic to ensure that multiple updates of the master tapes always ran in the proper sequence, built them machines for reviewing their optical tape files, supervised operators, learned COBOL, extended their specialized accounting applications, gambled to drop my student draft deferment only to draw a high lottery number, and watched billions of dollars flow from the CIA to Air America through a regional airplane leasing/services firm (whose small town accountant we happened to serve) while being thankful that I wasn't in uniform or otherwise anywhere near places where people were shooting at Americans.
My former Economics professor offered me the job as Director of my alma mater's Computing Center. I told him thanks, but no, battered about a little, got a job programming COBOL, taught myself IBM S/360 Assembly Language, got promoted to Systems Programmer, rolled out a statewide financial network, etc., etc. After several interesting jobs later, I've spent the last 15 years consulting for IT VPs, CTOs, and CIOs.
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I believe that all you have are your values, honor, and personal integrity. Let them guide your career choices, and you will always walk tall.
Re:One story, perhaps relevant... (Score:2)
Such an ad hominem attack doesn't merit any reply, Mr. AC. However I choose to answer because I have no regrets about my political beliefs or actions during that time.
In 1967 I wrote a Letter to the Editor of the local newspaper supporting our Senator for his sole dissenting vote against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. It _was_ published.
In 1968 I lent my ID to a SDS activist for travel to the Democratic Convention in Chicago. I also canvassed precincts near my college campaigning for George McGovern.
In 1969 I grew disillusioned about pursuing a science career partly because it seemed pointed towards Cold War work for the military-industrial establishment. I also went to San Francisco and rescued a girl who I'd briefly dated in High School from a fundamentalist Christian Missionary school that planned to her ship off to dark Africa upon graduation. Ten years later, she showed up again and moved in with me; we had a child together and married. That didn't last forever, but my daughter's in college, 3rd year.
In 1970 I hitchhiked to San Francisco for the Moratorium March. The lady I hitchhiked with happened to know the woman who designed the poster "War is Unhealthy for Children and Other Living Things." We stayed at the St. Francis with her and a male friend (I shared a room with him, she shared a room with her). We walked from Union Square to Golden Gate Park along with thousands of others who clogged San Francisco in that protest. Lyndon Johnson didn't run again due to that and other war protests.
In 1972 I questioned my employer's processing of accounting data for Evergreen Air (an aircraft supplier to Air America, which was the front for the CIA throughout SouthEast Asia). It was explained to me that _someone_ had to crunch the numbers, and business was business, not politics. That was true, I accepted it and worked.
Any questions? I have put myself on the line for what I believed and I changed my life because of it. Have you? Do you think you'll ever have the guts to actually do that?
Story of My Life... (Score:2)
I didn't exactly enjoy the Army, however I did excel at my duties, and had a priviledged place in my company's command as I was the only person who had a computer (Atart ST). They made me the operations NCO, gave me my own office and a private room, and basically gave me whatever I wanted as long as I kept up the company roster, produced jump manifests, reports, etc.
Not being one who particularly likes bowing to authority however, I did my time and got out of the military. I applied, and was accepted to the University of Minnesota computer science program, however I guess I still wasn't ready to return to school, because an Army buddy called me up and told me to come out to California. Within a week everything I owned was in a U-haul trailer and headed to sunny California, where I spent a couple of years as a surf bum, getting high and hitting the waves. I also got a job working as a care provider in a group home for developmentally disabled adults. I spent about four years doing that, and moved up in the company to the position of assistant to the CEO, again largely because of my skill with computers.
During this time I took a few classes at the local community college, wandering around from major to major; marine biology, journalism, English Lit., etc. But nothing really intrigued me.
I then met the woman I was going to marry, and that really set me moving I guess. I started attending community college regularly to get enough transfer credits for the University of California. I also developed a strong interest in history, stemming largely from my years of playing games like D&D. I transferred to UC Santa Barbara (by this time I was not only married, but had a kid).
I majored in medieval history, and planned on getting a Ph.D. I also worked in the university microcomputer lab. As I was getting ready to graduate, I started thinking that a Ph.D. might not be the right thing for me at that point (my Ph.D. program would take ~11 years to complete - lots of languages). I started looking around, and almost on a lark I applied for a job with a large consulting firm. I figured I didn't have a chance, but they were impressed with my grades, and I kicked ass in the interviews, so they hired me. I figured it was a good choice to work there, as I'd make as much money there with a four year degree, as I would after spending 11 years getting a Ph.D. in history.
So I moved to Denver and spent the next four years shooting up the consulting ladder. Within a couple of years I transferred to the Seattle office of my firm, and was doing very well. Then Sept 11 happend. I got laid-off. Big shock. The job market, particularly in Seattle, stinks. I spent three months looking, with barely a nibble. So finally I said screw it, and opened my own computer consulting firm and landed a contract. Now I'm happier than I've ever been. I'm making great money, am my own boss, and doing something I enjoy.
So I guess the moral is, do what you want. I got one of the worst degrees there is in terms of earning potential, but it was what I was interested in. It was fun, and I would do it the same way again. My computer skills were such that I din't think I needed a CS degree, and it turns out I didn't. Do what you love. You'll be happier in the end.
Don't know what to do? We have the solution (Score:2)
Here in Brazil we have the solution for those who don't know exactly what to major in. We call Normal Course (Curso Normal in portuguese).
Here in Brazil high school is three years long, so we have to decide our carrer before 18. Many of us choose easier courses or even popular courses, exactly what shouldn't be done.
Sheer demand will pull you towards computers (Score:2)
I'm not sure why you regard such a career track as "non-traditional". It is in fact part of a more general tradition -- a tradition of people who are educated as generalists confronting the economic reality that when they work in the real world, while they may indeed draw upon the skills they acquired in their education, the actual work they do will be very different.
Technical degrees (Score:2, Insightful)
Physics - Cinema - Web Design (Score:2, Interesting)
That lasted three weeks. Tops.
Suddenly I knew I wanted to do computer design in a big way. I wanted more than anything to created 3d special effects - primarily animation - for the movies. But what to do about college? Well, I decided that I could handle the artistic and technical side by myself, what I really needed was grounding in cinema. Cinematography, editing, lighting, etc. So, I switched from a physics major to a cinema/media studies major -- with which I graduated in 2000.
But that's not the end. About a year and a half before I graduated, I got fed up with my campus job (doing tech support for a university business group) and decided to look for a real job -- off campus. But what?
See, the 3d design eventually led to me working some in photoshop, and I loved photoshop. I knew I couldn't get a job doing 3d at my current experience level, but anything with photoshop would be terrific. And then it occured to me -- I could make web pages! I got my first job by lying about being able to write HTML, and showing my 3d work as 'design'.
This job occupied more and more of my time, and eventually I knew that there was no longer a future in the movies for me -- I was too hooked on the net. But it was too late to change my major again.
Eventually my web design led to Flash animation, which suddenly hit home for me. It combined computer-based design, my first love, with animation, my second love, and web design, my third love. It also encapsulates scripting, which is my newest love.
And suddenly my degree in Cinema/Media Studies from the University of Chicago WASN'T A WASTE! I was able to focus my education in cinema, and adapt it to flash animations. The result is, I get comments all the time, that my animations play more like movies.
The moral of the story is, do what you love. If you love more than one thing -- figure out a way to combine them. If you become unhappy with it, don't be afraid to evolve, but keep your past because you can always learn from it.
Don't let schooling interfere with your education (Score:3)
School gives you a piece of paper, and maybe some education, but it doesn't determine who you will be or what you'll do.
I started off majoring in chemistry back in '87. I started programming in about '79. I was a really good programmer. Chemistry was something I got interested in after a poor year of chemistry in high school and studying organic chemistry during my summer break and really loving it.
What I learned is that what interests me is not necessarily what I should study. I dropped out for a year, then went back as a computer science major and eventually dropped out and got a job as a programmer.
The classes I look back on as providing me with the best education, were my chemistry and English classes. I was way ahead of my Comp. Sci. program. I wrote a Pascal compiler just so that I could pass out of the compiler class. I showed up to my assembly language class twice. The first day and the final exam. I got an A+.
I'm not bragging, I'm just saying, school is one thing, education is another, and your choice of profession yet another.
I'm lucky, I can make a good living in my chosen profession. It's something I love to do and I'm good at it.
I'm 33 and my education is far from done. I learned a long time ago that I learn better on my own. Since then, I've studied physics, languages, chemistry, medicine, law, you name it, I've stuck my nose into most of it. I'm not a genius, and I'm not as good at any of these as I am at programming, but this is my education. School didn't educate me, except to let me know that I learn better without it (save the English and Chem classes).
Study what makes you happy. Then get a job that makes you happy, in whatever field. Take it from me: Making good money at a shitty job sucks, and making mediocre money at something you love is awesome. That's the only thing you should consider. Consider school 4 years of a chance to learn things you don't know anything about and to learn more about the things you want to know. When it comes to getting a job, go after what you want to do. Forget about which profession will make you the most money (unless that's what makes you happy).
Do what you want, not what others would suggest you do.
I'm doing Computer Science and Elementry Education (Score:2)
When I left(long story) I was informed of a part-time teachine position at a local elementry school. It was a private school, so I didn't need to have my certifications, and a CS major at the university was what they were looking for. I loved it. Learning about the differnt educational packages, how kids used computers, teaching them all I knew, etc. Nothing quite as exciting/nerveracking as having a class of 3rd graders assembling your new dual celeron system
Well, I transfered schools(Attending the University of Pittsburgh) I decided to go into Education. How Pitt's education program works is I'm still majoring in Computer Science, but taking courses that will get me into the School of Education when I graduate. So in 3 years, I'll have a BS in CS and a Masters of Education.
I figure I won't have any problems finding a teaching position holding a CS degree. And I can get into things like developing quality educational software. Or even work for Apple
Some majors are detrimental to your goal (Score:2, Insightful)
Then for my graduate degree, I decided upon computer science. What an incredible mistake!!! I do not reccomend a small state university if you try this, because I never heard the end of how I could never be a "real" or "successful" computer scientist, no matter what my grades or accomplishments were. THIS CAME FROM THE FACULTY WHO WERE SUPPOSED TO BE MENTORING ME!
I worked at IBM for a bit, and now I believe them.
My exit evaluation? "Linux is a nice hobby, but real computer scientists use Windows. You really need to learn how to program for the Windows platform."
I think they were about as forward thinking as the professors I had.
Just for grins I think I will learn how to program for the Macintosh platform instead. X seems so much cooler because it is unixy.
Become a CPA or a lawyer. You will always find work, and have a resonably good career.
Trust me. Stability and comfort are much more pleasant than uncertainty. Study what interests you in your free time, but train for a career that is tangible.
College majors don't directly equate to careers (Score:2)
When it came time to look for a job, my coursework and project experience didn't point at any one specific job - I had enough skills and experience to get a job in a variety of areas like hardware design, telecommunications, systems engineering, software design, consulting, and probably many others. The company I work for now does a lot of systems engineering, but you'll have a hard time finding anyone with a systems engineering degree - as far as I know, that major does not exist (and if it does exist somewhere, it shouldn't). When you get a job, you will have specific tasks that will usually require you to draw on your experience in general and not specific coursework. You may find some details helpful, but most jobs aren't the same as any college class (I would suggest staying away from those that are, as they could lock you into a specific position with no room to move).
Remember, even within a single major, there are many paths that you can take, making even an EE or CS degree a bit ambiguous. What will ultimately matter will be your full range of skills, not the letters on a piece of paper (unless those letters are "MCSE" of course). What is important is to enjoy what you do and build skills in the areas you are interested in. When deciding which of your interests (assuming that your interest is equal in all cases) to make your major and which to make a minor or hobby, start with the ones that will give you the most flexibility in the future and match those to the positions that require the most rigid structure to provide the greatest reward. For me, an EE degree provided the best opportunities, so I majored in that and left the rest to hobbies and outside interests. You need to rank your interests similarly.
For example, if your interest is in becoming a computer security specialist, as in your example, an EE or CS (I would suggest EE, Master's if you can do it) degree with a concentration in communications/crypto/etc., a minor in physics, and system administration as a hobby would put you in the best position to get the specific job you want, while still giving you the necessary skills for jobs in many other areas. Going straight at a specific job area without other supporting skills or getting a degree in another area with just an interest in the job area will put you at a competitive disadvantage (especially with the recent change in the job market). If you change your mind later or find an opportunity in another area that is too good to pass up, the more flexible skill set will put you in the best position to succeed. It is always possible to do something like major in Chinese history and go on to design propulsion systems for NASA, but don't go convincing yourself that you can always get away with that just because someone else did. There are a lot of variables at work, so you need to do as much as possible to minimize their effect on you if you want to pull off a big career shift.
Physics major and then law school, perhaps? (Score:2)
Of course, with many subfields of physics having way more jobs than people to fill them, you might just opt to just stay in the more traditional physics tracks. Many of the national labs, e.g. LANL and LLNL, pay in the 90-100k+ range with nice benefits packages for entry-level Ph.D physicists, and they are aggressively trying to hire people. With the demographics of the labs as they are, they will likely continue being as aggressive in their hiring for another decade or so at least.
Journalism == Sys Admin (Score:2)
Next thing I knew I was a Sys Admin with an English degree.
Does it matter? (Score:2)
Technology and Science booming? (Score:2)
If you think this is a boom, I shudder to think of what you would consider a bust.
Careers (Score:2)
-Legion
Sunscreen (Score:2)
Computer "science" (Score:2)
By the time I finally graduated from (a much lesser) college, only one person from that group was still a scientist, and he'd gone into astronomy. Nearly all of them had been sucked into the computer industry, including myself.
I think the computing field attracts those who couldn't hack it at a real science; the promised land, where one could earn a six-figure salary for writing ten lines of code a day (not to mention the agreeable prospect of not having to master any difficult mathematics) beckons. The withering of the high-tech job market in Washington has hurt me, but in a way I'm glad it happened--maybe the truly good people will keep on _earning_ their salaries, while the dime-a-dozen computer geeks who got into the business because they though they could make easy money playing with their toys (I include myself in that group) get weeded out.
Re:Just do what you like (Score:2)
A degree from college does not necessarily mean this is the only thing you can do. If you become a doctor or lawyer then yes you have specific area of study, but most EE, CS, CE, Physics, Arts majors and some others the job can vary....
Re:physics (Score:2)
It's not exactly a common path, but it's a great way to get involved in high tech/R&D areas. I'd personally recommend it to anyone that is looking to do something more with physics/engineering and still wants a CS degree (Granted, it's a three-year degree, but I'm seriously planning to turn it into a four-year).